Can 2 (or more) people get credit for recruiting one person?

[talldude]

Can 2 (or more) people get credit (towards the ribbon) for recruiting one person?

[Eclipse]

No.

[LSThiker]

Not that I disagree in principle, but just to play FSM's advocate, where is the citation for that answer?

[Storm Chaser]

The membership application has room for only one recruiter CAPID, which is then documented in eServices under Members Reports > Member Recruiting.

[LSThiker]

The membership application has room for only one recruiter CAPID, which is then documented in eServices under Members Reports > Member Recruiting.

Which came first:  the chicken or the egg (assuming it is a chicken egg we are talking about)?

So you say because the application only has 1 spot, therefore, only 1 person can be credited.  However, is it not possible that because the form was created with only 1 spot, we assume only 1 person can be credited?

Also, the CAPF 15 states "person most responsible" "optional:  for recruiting purposes".  This does not necessarily mean that a person cannot be given recruitment credit for the purpose of the recruitment ribbon.  CAPR 39-3 does not specifically say one way or another. 

[a2capt]

There's only one place to enter it. It may not say it, but that is certainly implied. Does 39-1 say to tie your shoes or button the shirt?

[lordmonar]

The membership application has room for only one recruiter CAPID, which is then documented in eServices under Members Reports > Member Recruiting.

The membership application is not the only source for verifying recruiting credit.

[NIN]

So you say because the application only has 1 spot, therefore, only 1 person can be credited.  However, is it not possible that because the form was created with only 1 spot, we assume only 1 person can be credited?

Next thing you know, you'll want to log PIC credit from the backseat with that logic!

"Just because there are only two sets of controls and they're in the front doesn't mean you can't be in charge in the back seat!!"

[Luis R. Ramos]

Yeah, so I still remember the jokes from the 70's and 80's about mothers-in-law being the real car drivers, from the back of the seat!

How can it even be possible for two people to recruit one? There has to be only one who is most responsible!

Flyer

[Walkman]

How can it even be possible for two people to recruit one? There has to be only one who is most responsible!

While I agree on the answer that currently only one person can get credit, I can easily see how a couple of people could be responsbile for someone joining up. Two cadet BFFs work together to recruit their other buddy. Doesn't seem al that far fetched to me.

[Garibaldi]

There's only one place to enter it. It may not say it, but that is certainly implied. Does 39-1 say to tie your shoes or button the shirt?

"Corporal Barnes, can you turn to the page in this book that says where the mess hall is, please?"
"No, sir, I can't."
"Why not?"
"It's not in there."
"You mean to say that during your whole time in Gitmo you've never had a meal?"
"No, sir.  Three squares a day."
"Then how did you know where to go to eat if it's not in this book?"
"I guess I sort of just followed the crowd at chow time, sir."

[Storm Chaser]

Also, the CAPF 15 states "person most responsible" "optional:  for recruiting purposes".  This does not necessarily mean that a person cannot be given recruitment credit for the purpose of the recruitment ribbon.  CAPR 39-3 does not specifically say one way or another.

What do you think "most responsible means"? If they wanted to credit more than one recruiter, it would say something like "persons responsible".

The membership application has room for only one recruiter CAPID, which is then documented in eServices under Members Reports > Member Recruiting.

The membership application is not the only source for verifying recruiting credit.

Really? So how do you document it? eServices does that already; no need to reinvent the wheel. Since I joined in 1987 it's always been that way (not the eServices part, but the recruiting credit part). One recruiter gets credit for one recruit. During recruiting events, recruits are divided as evenly as possible.

It's funny though, there are things that are spelled out in the regulations, but many members find the way to "interpret" them to their convenience or ignore them all together. When the intent of the regulation is enforced in eServices, people still complain that it's not written in the regulation. No wonder CAP has so many problems. When did everything become about how easy we can "earn" awards? How about putting the effort to earn them since they're already easy enough to earn?

Two recruits for the cadet ribbon; that's it. And now we want to make that 1.5 or two 0.5 recruits per recruiter for credit? Seriously? The senior ribbon is a bit harder to earn; so what? Recruiting (and retention) are crucial to CAP. We need more members, not more ribbons or workarounds for earning them easier.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Storm-

As usual. I find other members very articulate, much more than I am, for some of the issues I believe in. Very well put response!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Flyer

[talldude]

How can it even be possible for two people to recruit one? There has to be only one who is most responsible!

While I agree on the answer that currently only one person can get credit, I can easily see how a couple of people could be responsible for someone joining up. Two cadet BFFs work together to recruit their other buddy. Doesn't seem all that far fetched to me.

I recruited my brother (my 1st person). My brother's best friend (who is also one of my good friends), joined a few months after my brother (my 2nd person & I am wondering if it is my brothers 1st recruited person). I am the one that told him all about CAP, however, I doubt If he would have joined if my brother had not of joined. (This cadet and my brother are both currently C/CMSgts).

My youngest brother will be joining in August. I am wondering if both my (C/CMSgt) brother and I, can/will both get credit (my 3rd & my brothers 2nd person recruited)?

Another reason I am asking this, is because our squadron just started a recruiting team of about 7 cadets that will soon be speaking in schools. I have a feeling that this question will come up and I would like to have the correct answer.


Thank you to everyone for all the input so far! 

[NIN]

Best way to solve this issue: Recruit a LOT of cadets.

After the 14th cadet, your 7 member recruiting team won't have to fight over who recruited who, as they will all have a recruiter ribbon and be more sanguine about the whole thing.

When you're only recruiting a few people a year, everybody wants to tussle over the scraps. ("I talked to him for 45 minutes at the open house. I sealed the deal!" "Yeah? Well, I'm the one who gave him an Open House flyer!")

[LSThiker]

What do you think "most responsible means"? If they wanted to credit more than one recruiter, it would say something like "persons responsible".

Except that as stated on the CAPF 15 is for recruiting purposes, not for the purpose of award criteria.  Again, CAPR 39-3 does not indicate either way.  Nor does it reference CAPF 15.

Since I joined in 1987 it's always been that way (not the eServices part, but the recruiting credit part). One recruiter gets credit for one recruit. During recruiting events, recruits are divided as evenly as possible.

Except that "it's always been that way" is not an accepted answer for when determining regulations.  A lot of things have always been that way, it does not mean they are correct or accepted that way.  Would you accept, "Well that is the way we have always done it"? 

Also, the documenting through eServices is messed up for me.  According to eServices, I only have 5 people, but I have my CAPF 2a and proof demonstrating recruitment of more than 5.  So, no eServices is not the only method of documentation.  If a person says I have 7 and eServices shows only 5, but they have a CAPF 2a signed by the commander, I will put more faith in the CAPF 2a than eServices.

When the intent of the regulation is enforced in eServices, people still complain that it's not written in the regulation.

Except that is the question, where is the intent of the regulation?  What regulation shows this intent?  A form having only 1 spot does not show intent of a regulation, it merely shows 1 spot on a form.

Two recruits for the cadet ribbon; that's it.

No one is arguing otherwise and no one is arguing for more awards.

Again, I agree that only 1 person should receive credit, but my question is "what is the regulation that forms said basis?"  Can I really argue with proof, and not opinion, if a commander were to disagree with me on this subject?

Next thing you know, you'll want to log PIC credit from the backseat with that logic!

"Just because there are only two sets of controls and they're in the front doesn't mean you can't be in charge in the back seat!!"

Except that the FAA has a definition for PIC and states how to log PIC time.  Both of which can be found in the FAR. 

[Eclipse]

Except that as stated on the CAPF 15 is for recruiting purposes, not for the purpose of award criteria.  Again, CAPR 39-3 does not indicate either way.  Nor does it reference CAPF 15.

No it is for both.

Awards are presented for the number of recruits indicated in eServices.  There is no other mechanism for submitting or
entering those CAPIDs.   As indicated, only one person can be "most" responsible.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Tall

The question is what are you doing to recruit them. Are you talking to them about CAP, the uniforms, the activities? Then are you going back to that person with more info? Then comparing etc.? It is not just "I talked to him for ten minutes, he saw me with the uniform, so I want credit for recruiting him / her now."

Flyer

[Luis R. Ramos]

Dudes,

Stop arguing and place two names on that spot! See what NHQ Does!!! If they accept both names, you are OK. If they accept only one, there is your answer!!!

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Or you could get the app back unprocessed.

[LSThiker]

No it is for both.

Awards are presented for the number of recruits indicated in eServices.  There is no other mechanism for submitting or
entering those CAPIDs.   As indicated, only one person can be "most" responsible.

You have not answered the question:  "what is the regulation that forms said basis?"  Can I really argue with proof, and not opinion, if a commander were to disagree with me on this subject?

As you said, "as indicated".  It is only indicated on the CAPF 12/15 for recruiting purposes and it is optional.  It does not indicate for award criteria.  If it is the sole source for award determination, then it should not be optional.  For award criteria, you must turn to CAPR 39-3.

Unfortunately, CAPR 39-3 is pretty mute on the subject:

k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.

(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

[LSThiker]

Or you could get the app back unprocessed.

Yeah.  Not really a good idea for experimentation by possibly delaying a members application.

[MSG Mac]

The individual who is recruited determines who recruited him/her. If they say both Bob and Mary were equally responsible, I would give each credit. The Recruiting report is only a tool for the Commander, who awards the Recruiting Ribbon and is the final word on who gets the ribbon and credit.

[talldude]

Tall

The question is what are you doing to recruit them. Are you talking to them about CAP, the uniforms, the activities? Then are you going back to that person with more info? Then comparing etc.? It is not just "I talked to him for ten minutes, he saw me with the uniform, so I want credit for recruiting him / her now."

Flyer

Our plan is to talk for about 30 minutes - 10 min for each CAP Mission then about 15 extra minutes for questions. However, as NIN suggested, we plan to recruit multiple cadets from multiple schools, airshows, festivals, etc. So hopefully every one on the team will get a ribbon.

Personally, I think it should be up to the member applicant to pick the cadet (or possibly cadets) that is(/are) most responsible for their joining. Not for them to just put down a cadet's name, because that cadet told them too.

Dudes,

Stop arguing and place two names on that spot! See what NHQ Does!!! If they accept both names, you are OK. If they accept only one, there is your answer!!!

Flyer

Sir, I wasn't arguing with anyone.. I just put out a question, then later posted why I asked the question. I didn't say anyone was right or wrong. I apologize if it came across as an argument.
BTW I will be putting both my brother's name and my name on my youngest brother's membership application (in August) and see what happens.

[LSThiker]

Sir, I wasn't arguing with anyone.. I just put out a question, then later posted why I asked the question. I didn't say anyone was right or wrong. I apologize if it came across as an argument.
BTW I will be putting both my brother's name and my name on my youngest brother's membership application (in August) and see what happens.

He was not referring to you.  He is referring to my question.

[NIN]

Awards are presented for the number of recruits indicated in eServices. There is no other mechanism for submitting or entering those CAPIDs.   As indicated, only one person can be "most" responsible.

Cite?  39-3, para 21k(1) or (2), says nothing of the sort.  I don't disagree with that as the mechanism, BTW, but the entire thing is broken if you're relying on NHQ to track that data via that particular entry.

1) Who knows a particular person's CAPID at the time the CAPF 15 or 12 goes downrange?  Not often!
2) Does that even get tracked in eServices? (I may not have the perms to see any of that at the moment)

What we've done in the past at the unit, before any kind of e-services tracking, was to have the cadet submit a CAPF 2a with the names of the recruits in the remarks block.  I don't believe we ever had situations where people took credit for the same recruit, but even if we did, whats the big deal?

[Storm Chaser]

LSThiker, please cite the regulation that says we can give credit for one recruit to two recruiters for the Recruiter Ribbon. I'll go get a cup of coffee while you look that up.

[Eclipse]

The award mechanism is via the app, the app says "most responsible" and expects a single CAPID.

Anything else is ribbon trolling and we should not be encouraging that behavior.

There's also no cite in either direction.

[LSThiker]

LSThiker, please cite the regulation that says we can give credit for one recruit to two recruiters for the Recruiter Ribbon. I'll go get a cup of coffee while you look that up.

Burden of proof falls on the person making a claim. I have not made a claim yet. Plus you cannot prove a negative.

That is Philosophy 101. I do not drink coffee, but I will take tea.

[Eclipse]

^ The "you can't prove a negative" doesn't work in the parlance of "authorized only if indicated" military-style regulations
and similar documents.  In those cases, it's "if it doesn't say you can, you can't".

In this case, absent any verbiage to the group concept, a single mechanism for credit and that mechanism having clarity
about the submission, there's no room for interpretation.

In order for more then one person to get credit, the submission mechanism and verbiage would have to be changed.

Here's something that is the final answer, I can't check it.  How many CAPIDs can you indicate on the new online form?

[talldude]

Awards are presented for the number of recruits indicated in eServices. There is no other mechanism for submitting or entering those CAPIDs.   As indicated, only one person can be "most" responsible.

Cite?  39-3, para 21k(1) or (2), says nothing of the sort.  I don't disagree with that as the mechanism, BTW, but the entire thing is broken if you're relying on NHQ to track that data via that particular entry.

1) Who knows a particular person's CAPID at the time the CAPF 15 or 12 goes downrange?  Not often!
2) Does that even get tracked in eServices? (I may not have the perms to see any of that at the moment)

What we've done in the past at the unit, before any kind of e-services tracking, was to have the cadet submit a CAPF 2a with the names of the recruits in the remarks block.  I don't believe we ever had situations where people took credit for the same recruit, but even if we did, whats the big deal?

When I joined, I only put down my friend's name.  I didn't put down his "CAP ID" because I didn't know what that was at the time. He was/is at a different squadron than I am/was and somehow they were able to track him down (I'm not sure, but he may have requested it). Anyways, the next time I saw him (months after I joined) he had his recruiter ribbon an I was one of the members he had recruited.

[LSThiker]

The award mechanism is via the app, the app says "most responsible" and expects a single CAPID.

Anything else is ribbon trolling and we should not be encouraging that behavior.

That is a different question.

There's also no cite in either direction.

If that is the case, then you cannot say "No" unless you are specifically expressing an opinion.

[Eclipse]

When I joined, I only put down my friend's name.  I didn't put down his "CAP ID" because I didn't know what that was at the time. He was/is at a different squadron than I am/was and somehow they were able to track him down (I'm not sure, but he may have requested it). Anyways, the next time I saw him (months after I joined) he had his recruiter ribbon an I was one of the members he had recruited.

Odds are the Commander at the time corrected the name to CAP ID.

[LSThiker]

^ The "you can't prove a negative" doesn't work in the parlance of "authorized only if indicated" military-style regulations
and similar documents.  In those cases, it's "if it doesn't say you can, you can't".

So if that is the case, do you tie your boots as CAPM 39-1 does say to do it as stated by Flyer   Actually, it specifically only says laced-up for shoes.  Such verbiage does not exist under the combat boots section.

In this case, absent any verbiage to the group concept, a single mechanism for credit and that mechanism having clarity
about the submission, there's no room for interpretation.

In this case, absent any verbiage to the single concept, there's no room for interpretation as well.

Here's something that is the final answer, I can't check it.  How many CAPIDs can you indicate on the new online form?

Not a final answer.  Again, CAPR 39-3 determines award criteria, not CAPF 15 or eServices.

[Storm Chaser]

LSThiker, please cite the regulation that says we can give credit for one recruit to two recruiters for the Recruiter Ribbon. I'll go get a cup of coffee while you look that up.

Burden of proof falls on the person making a claim.

Is there a regulation that states that? Because, apparently, if it's not spelled out in a regulation, it must NOT be true.

I do not drink coffee, but I will take tea.

The coffee was for me.

[NIN]

Here's something that is the final answer, I can't check it.  How many CAPIDs can you indicate on the new online form?

I don't recall there was a spot for that in the new online form.

/beta tester

[talldude]

Is this what you mean by the online application:http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/f012_15378c3760422.pdf   ??

[Eclipse]

Here's something that is the final answer, I can't check it.  How many CAPIDs can you indicate on the new online form?

I don't recall there was a spot for that in the new online form.

/beta tester

Forgive me if I am not shocked.

[NIN]

Or there may have been a spot on the application, I just don't remember, and my notes are not with me at the moment.

As I recall, the questions and boxes pretty much exactly replicated the data on the existing form, so I don't think they would have dropped it. But I will have to check my screen grabs.

[lordmonar]

This illustrates a problem with the recruiting ribbon, e-services, how we verify accomplishments, and just general attitudes towards ribbons and awards.


The OP simply asked the question.....can two cadets get credit for recruiting the same new member?.

Okay.......

k. Recruiter Ribbons.
Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in
recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.

(1)  Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An
additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.

(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in
determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets

So......zero mention about what the source document to "prove" who did the recruiting.  No mention about who was "most responsible".....it just says recruit XX qualified members.

Okay....the membership application has a spot for someone to put in a number.....and E-services does track that.....but again 39-3 does not say if the application information or E-services are the sole source documents.

Now on the comment about ribbon trolling.......FOUL!  10 Yard Penalty!   We do a lot of things in CAP as a team!   Often multiple people may be involved in the process of recruiting a new member.   I know in my squadron a perspective member gets the sales pitch from several members during their three meeting visits.   So who get's the credit?   I can certainly see where a member may get bent when he/she spends a significant amount of time recruiting a perspective member and the credit is solely given to another member of the team!  So it is a legitimate question and is not to be disparaged.

Okay......now that I've ranted......I have some possible solutions.

Partial Credit.
BITD when being an ACE was a big deal for pilots (like yesterday), when all those P-51s came back and de-breifed......the bean counters had trouble on figuring out who was responsible for shooting down enemy aircraft.    Red One gave that ME-109 two bursts of .50 and started smoking, then the B-17 gave him a good burst from the belly gun, then Red Five put in another burst and then the plane started spiraling down to the earth.    So....who shot down the ME-109?   

Back in the day.....they would award partial credit......if it came down to two pilots....they both got 0.5 credit (sometimes even less)

So......start a recruiting spreadsheet....and award credit as needed.   10 guys work a recruiting booth....they recruit 15 new members.....they each get 1.5 recruits.

Two brothers recruit their next door neighbor, 0.5 credit each.

That is one solution.

Second possible solution.

Award whole credit to more then one person.  Two brothers recruit their school chum.....they both get credit for 1 recruit.   Nothing I can find says that the number of people recruited must match the number of ribbons awarded.


On this same theme........what about group efforts like recruiting booths or open houses?    IMHO there should be a second way of earning a recruiting ribbon......"Participate in XX hours of recruiting at at least XX events".......I would suggest 20 hours at at least 4 events....this would be "recruiting service" award as opposed to "recruiting achievement" award........I AM NOT SUGGESTING A NEW RIBBON!!!!! just a new way to earn the existing ribbon. (I am also suggesting we eliminate the cadet recruiting award.....and just roll them all into one ribbon).

Rant done.

[LSThiker]

Is there a regulation that states that? Because, apparently, if it's not spelled out in a regulation, it must NOT be true.

Hmm interesting.

That is why there is such a thing called command decisions.  While I agree that EMTs doing their job should not qualify, but to write it in the reg is unnecessary.

I respectfully disagree. I think one of the reasons we have so many issues in CAP is because too many regs are open to interpretation.

Yup. Open to interpretation. Hence why, if this is the case, it should be based on a regulation.  So where is the cite again?  The issue of giving credit to one or more people is a command decision as the final authority to award the ribbon is the commander.

[Eclipse]

Now on the comment about ribbon trolling.......FOUL!  10 Yard Penalty!   We do a lot of things in CAP as a team!   Often multiple people may be involved in the process of recruiting a new member.   I know in my squadron a perspective member gets the sales pitch from several members during their three meeting visits.   So who get's the credit?   I can certainly see where a member may get bent when he/she spends a significant amount of time recruiting a perspective member and the credit is solely given to another member of the team!  So it is a legitimate question and is not to be disparaged.

Multiple people cannot be the "most responsible".

If you can somehow make that math work for you in giving the ribbon to more then one person, there you go.

Otherwise. 

Done.

[NIN]

I found the recruiting report (accidentally... Grrr)

The joke is clearly on me about recruiting:

ETA: looks like someplace in 2005 I just sort of said "meh, I'll let others take credit for my work.."
ETA (again): Crap. 4 more and I get a set of steak knives and a silver clasp.  Need to fix that!

[lordmonar]

Now on the comment about ribbon trolling.......FOUL!  10 Yard Penalty!   We do a lot of things in CAP as a team!   Often multiple people may be involved in the process of recruiting a new member.   I know in my squadron a perspective member gets the sales pitch from several members during their three meeting visits.   So who get's the credit?   I can certainly see where a member may get bent when he/she spends a significant amount of time recruiting a perspective member and the credit is solely given to another member of the team!  So it is a legitimate question and is not to be disparaged.

Multiple people cannot be the "most responsible".

If you can somehow make that math work for you in giving the ribbon to more then one person, there you go.

Otherwise. 

Done.

Where does it say in 39-3 that you have to be "the most responsible" ...it just says to recruit.   

And again where does it say you can't share credit...either as whole numbers or partial credits?

[Eclipse]

Where does it say you can?

[lordmonar]

Where does it say you can?

So there is our quandary.

Neither of us can cite the regulations chapter and verse.....ergo the answer is "ask your commander".

[Storm Chaser]

Where does it say you can?

So there is our quandary.

Neither of us can cite the regulations chapter and verse.....ergo the answer is "ask your commander".

This question shouldn't be left up to the individual unit commander. Clarification should come from above and should be requested through the chain of command.

[lordmonar]

Where does it say you can?

So there is our quandary.

Neither of us can cite the regulations chapter and verse.....ergo the answer is "ask your commander".

This question shouldn't be left up to the individual unit commander. Clarification should come from above and should be requested through the chain of command.

To a point.....I agree.....39-3 is not super super clear about it.   Anyone want to write that reg?   What would it look like?  Who makes the call when we legitimately have two or more people involved in the recruiting process?  Is the new member the one who gets to make the call?  Is the application form the only source document?

What about recruiting service?  Where you as part of a booth or display are recruiting?  How do we recognize our members who do that sort of work?

[SunDog]

Did anyone here get credit for recruiting themselves? Maybe you gave yourself a good talking to? Worked hard to sell yourself on the organization, and urge yourself to fill out that form after a few meetings?  So that's good for one, right? Put your own name on the form? If you droppped out after a while, then mooched back after 18 months or so, that could be two?  Maybe only 1.5 though, if your CC called and pitched you to come back?

[lordmonar]

Did anyone here get credit for recruiting themselves? Maybe you gave yourself a good talking to? Worked hard to sell yourself on the organization, and urge yourself to fill out that form after a few meetings?  So that's good for one, right? Put your own name on the form? If you droppped out after a while, then mooched back after 18 months or so, that could be two?  Maybe only 1.5 though, if your CC called and pitched you to come back?

And?

Your point?

[SunDog]

Point-less; only gentle satire, pleasant banter, intended. Perhaps we influence, but not recruit? Though I heard NY Wing has a press gang operating up-state. . .

[Walkman]

I submitted this question to the KB:

Two related questions about making sure proper credit is given for the recruiting ribbon (both cadet & SM).

1) If more than one person is truly responsbile for bringing in a recruit, can each person receive credit for that single recruit. Example: two brothers are cadets and regularly work with a mutual friend who decides to join. The membership application form only has space for one CAPID, but in this situation, both brothers could reasonably recieve credit for the recruit. Another possible scenario is 3 cadets working a recruiting event and the new recruit spends a roughly equal time with the group and decides to join from that interaction.

2) Is there a mechanism to track recruiting other than the membership application and the e-services data? A new commander may not notice a the (optional) recruiting field left blank on the form and a new recruit most likely will not know how to fill that in or know the CAPID. If a person truly has done the work to recruit, but the data was missing from the application, can they still receive credit?

Here is the answer I received:

The recruiter ribbon is awarded by the unit commander and as such can make a determination on the recruiting credit for each member in your examples.

For your tracking mechanism, I've forwarded the question to the POC:

Personnel and Member Actions
sparker@capnhq.gov
To contact Member Actions call Toll free at 877-227-9142 Ext 212 or Ext 207
Commercial 334 953-7748 Ext 212 or Ext 207

I read that as the CC has the ability to award credit for the ribbon to multiple people and that there is no other way currently at NHQ to track recruits.

[Walkman]

I just got another answer from the KB:

Response Via Email(KB Manager) - 04/17/2014 07:18 AM
In response to your second question.

Recruiting credit is not tied to the membership application or eServices.  Units may track recruiting credit locally for the purpose of awarding the Recruiter Ribbon.

[Eclipse]

I just got another answer from the KB:

Response Via Email(KB Manager) - 04/17/2014 07:18 AM
In response to your second question.

Recruiting credit is not tied to the membership application or eServices.  Units may track recruiting credit locally for the purpose of awarding the Recruiter Ribbon.

Translation:  "Leadership requires making a decision which, while providing consistency across the organization, might make people sad.
Rather then lead, we will disavow."

There should be no "local discretion" about this kind of stuff, because it always leads to someone feeling cheated.

[NIN]

There should be no "local discretion" about this kind of stuff, because it always leads to someone feeling cheated.

Or not.

"Sir, I was at the recruiting event. I recruited 3 of the cadets from that"

"Funny, Jeeves, the OIC said you were over at the food table for 45 of the 60 minutes stuffing hotdogs in your face..."

[LSThiker]

I just got another answer from the KB:

Response Via Email(KB Manager) - 04/17/2014 07:18 AM
In response to your second question.

Recruiting credit is not tied to the membership application or eServices.  Units may track recruiting credit locally for the purpose of awarding the Recruiter Ribbon.

Thanks. So as I was saying the CAPF15 and eServices are for recruiting and not the award criteria. The decision to award the credit for the ribbon is up to the commander.

And now for the required CAP Knowledge Base is not correct argument.  Which I will not be getting into so have fun with that

[lordmonar]

I just got another answer from the KB:

Response Via Email(KB Manager) - 04/17/2014 07:18 AM
In response to your second question.

Recruiting credit is not tied to the membership application or eServices.  Units may track recruiting credit locally for the purpose of awarding the Recruiter Ribbon.

Translation:  "Leadership requires making a decision which, while providing consistency across the organization, might make people sad.
Rather then lead, we will disavow."

There should be no "local discretion" about this kind of stuff, because it always leads to someone feeling cheated.

Then you have to write guidelines that meet every situation.   What would that reg look like?

[Eclipse]

There should be no "local discretion" about this kind of stuff, because it always leads to someone feeling cheated.
Then you have to write guidelines that meet every situation.   What would that reg look like?

It's not "every situation" it's "the situation".

Short sentences clear wording, no ambiguity.

"Only one person may receive credit for recruiting a new member, and this is tracked via the CAPID entered on the member's application."

[lordmonar]

That is one way of doing it.

But now you are going to have people butt hurt because they helped recruit that new person.
Also who makes the determination of who's name goes on the form?   Is it just up to the new person?   Maybe they don't care who actually did all the recruiting and they put their friend's name on the application?

The point being.....the purpose of the recruiting ribbon is two fold.......to encourage members to recruit and to recognize those who do recruit.

If our people team up to accomplish that recruiting.....let's recognize them.

[Storm Chaser]

Maybe we should seek clarification through the CAP KB.

[NIN]

Thanks. So as I was saying the CAPF15 and eServices are for recruiting and not the award criteria. The decision to award the credit for the ribbon is up to the commander.

And now for the required CAP Knowledge Base is not correct argument.  Which I will not be getting into so have fun with that

hehe.

At the end of the day, the purpose of the ribbon is to encourage recruiting, right?

The commander's intent, if I don't read things too wrong, is to encourage and reward those (legitimate) efforts that resulted in a member joining.

"I talked to Johnny Smith before he joined" is not "I recruited him."

"I recruited Cadet Smith. He put my name on the sheet, etc, etc"

On more than one occasion, I would have a cadet come in about a recruiter ribbon and when pressed about who he recruited, it was a 45 second stammering conversation about "Maybe Jones, or was it Murphy?" 

"Did you *really* recruit these guys?"

Sometimes I'd spot check: "Hey, Jones, who recruited you?"
"Cadet Cleanlinen, sir."
"Check, thanks!"

[NIN]

But now you are going to have people butt hurt because they helped recruit that new person.
Also who makes the determination of who's name goes on the form?   Is it just up to the new person?   Maybe they don't care who actually did all the recruiting and they put their friend's name on the application?

One  circumstance I knew of: whenever a new member inquiry came into a wing, a packet with a brochure, a unit contact information sheet and a set of CAPF 15s or CAPF 12s went to this prospect (no matter where in the wing) with one particular member's name pre-filled into the recruiter spot on the form. 

You'd ask "Oh, Major [redacted] recruited you?" and you'd get back "Who?"

In the world of John Cusack "Real smooth, Cliff."

The point being.....the purpose of the recruiting ribbon is two fold.......to encourage members to recruit and to recognize those who do recruit.

Precisely. I tended to take a "one-to-one" however, just to avoid divvying up credit.

Yes, it did result in some folks going "But, but.."

But usually not.

[Private Investigator]

No.

Best answer. End of thread ..  :clap:

[Luis R. Ramos]

So easy!

"Recruit New, for how long did cadet Sweet talk to you? How many times were you with cadet Poop?"

"Cadet Poop, you do not get credit. Cadet Sweet talked with Recruit New 20 times, for more than twenty minutes each. You did not p___ enough effort to recruit that cadet..."

It looks to me some of you do not want to be the bearer of bad news and say instead "the regs are to blame..."

Flyer

[a2capt]

The more thorough the documentation for the 2A..

.. and then if you see multiple people with the same claims, it brings into question the rest of that unit file cabinet.

Ribbon trolling at it's finest.

[Grumpy]

Hey, I say just send in a copy of the squadron roster and give everybody credit.  After all, the recruit joined the squadron because they liked what the squadron did, right?

[Storm Chaser]

Hey, I say just send in a copy of the squadron roster and give everybody credit.  After all, the recruit joined the squadron because they liked what the squadron did, right?

So if you have 20 cadets and your unit recruits two new cadets, all 20 should get the Recruiter Ribbon? Yeah... I don't think so. With 20 cadets, you should see 40 new cadets in your unit before everyone gets the ribbon.

[Luis R. Ramos]

If I were in the position to give 20 members credit for the ribbon in question, I would only give them 1/10 of a ribbon... 

Flyer

[a2capt]

Horizontal, or vertical slice?

[Eclipse]

Horizontal, or vertical slice?

45° starting from the left upper corner.

With each subsequent award, he recipient receives the >next< slice in the order, but is not allowed to
wear it until he has a compete ribbon.

Vanguard sells the slices for $1.00 each, $29.99 for a complete ribbon.

[lordmonar]

Vanguard sells the slices for $1.00 each, $29.99 for a complete ribbon.

I know I don't under the new Common Curriculmn math......but 10*$1.00 is not $29.99 

[a2capt]

What's important is not the actual answer, but how you got there.  Just remember that.

[Eclipse]

Vanguard sells the slices for $1.00 each, $29.99 for a complete ribbon.

I know I don't under the new Common Curriculmn math......but 10*$1.00 is not $29.99 

Handling fees - someone has to slice all those ribbons.

[NC Hokie]

Here's something that is the final answer, I can't check it.  How many CAPIDs can you indicate on the new online form?

I just looked. Recruiting info is not being collected, which effectively makes the recruiting report in eServices useless.

[a2capt]

I still can't believe the topic, really? If you have to stretch to justify .. if it took two of you to get someone.. you're going to bicker over who gets the credit? That's essentially what's happening.

[lordmonar]

I still can't believe the topic, really? If you have to stretch to justify .. if it took two of you to get someone.. you're going to bicker over who gets the credit? That's essentially what's happening.

Yep.

We are discussing the ramifications of the awards program and how to get the maximum benefit out of it.

We are discussing the gray areas that are not clearly spelled out in the regulations.

Two people will only have to bicker about it.......if.......we are not allowed to share credit or give credit to two or more people.

And if you think that is not important.....the you simply do not under some CAP members.

[NIN]

I tend to be a little more black & white about stuff like this.

We're not John Godfrey & his wingman gunning an Fw-190 in a turning fight over the Rhine here.

Do you give the centerfielder partial credit for the catch just because he was there to backup the shortstop? No.

You want the trophy ribbon, do the work. Be the recruiter who seals the deal.   "It pays to be a winnner."

Anything else invites random straphangers and back-benchers to take credit for the work of others.  And it diminishes that effort.

Smart cadets will avoid "group" recruiting efforts  because they don't want to bust their butt just so the kid who showed up late with his uniform all jacked up and then spent more time over jaw-jacking with the girls will try to claim they were involved in actually recruiting a particular prospective member.

[Eclipse]

You want the trophy ribbon, do the work. Be the recruiter who seals the deal.   "It pays to be a winnner."

Coffee is for closers.

[THRAWN]

You want the trophy ribbon, do the work. Be the recruiter who seals the deal.   "It pays to be a winnner."

Coffee is for closers.

As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado Recruiter Ribbon. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired...

[NIN]

As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado Recruiter Ribbon. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired...

This makes my heart leap with joy. Let me go get my briefcase.

[Flying Pig]

Nothing to add.  I just wanted to be Reply #80 :clap:

[a2capt]

Can we split #80? Nothing says we both can't have it.

[NIN]

Can we split #80? Nothing says we both can't have it.

It might encourage participation

[Eclipse]

I get a piece as well, I was on the internet when he wrote it!

[Private Investigator]

Horizontal, or vertical slice?

Hot dog cut or hamburger cut? 

[Private Investigator]

Nothing to add.  I just wanted to be Reply #80 :clap:

You did it! I am sure you will get a ribbon for it and so will the other 79. Just like in little leage everyone gets a trophy   :clap:

[a2capt]

Because if I didn't recruit you, you would have not recruited him! So I get credit too, for him!

Absurd. The whole thing is absurd.

[Luis R. Ramos]

The next question we will get is using one CAPF 15 or CAPF 12 for multiple applicants... As in "Can 2 (or more) people apply on the same application form?"

Flyer

[a2capt]

Too late. I've gotten that already.