Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 26, 2017, 02:47:28 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tall Tales  |  Topic: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 8 Print
Author Topic: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc  (Read 16023 times)
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 592

« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2013, 05:43:03 PM »

Big Bang is meant to be an emotional shock.

For most of the cadets (especially the younger cadets), the being away from home, being somewhere they're unfamiliar with, and starting an adventure that is completely unknown to them is enough of a shock.

Besides, I keep reading CAPR 52-16, and the draft encampment regulation and I just can't find where we're supposed to provide an emotional shock to our cadets. I know I haven't been sufficiently trained on how to emotionally shock a 12 year old (it's never been covered during RST or TLC), but perhaps my wing is behind the times.
Logged
Pulsar
Forum Regular

Posts: 196
Unit: NER-PA----

« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2013, 05:57:15 PM »

By admission they do in PAWG. I'm just filing this under "I hope I don't move there" as I would seriously have to consider further CAP involvement at that point.

Ohhh, my. That's just great. -I'm scaring people away from PAWG. I feel I have gotten some of the best training to be a follower in CAP. I've only known one cadet that has been to PAWG encampment and not loved it at the end.

The first two days are the hardest but we do tons of fun stuff and make lots of friends. You think you're being pushed to the limit. But then you come to realize that, hey, the staff are people. They make mistakes, but they have to put in so much more. They have responsibility over the entire team. They have to make sure you get where you are going, get up, and countless other things. Then you realize how much they put in to train you. I'm not talking about just the yelling. -I am talking about everything.
Logged
C/LtCol Neutron Star
PAWG ENC 2013/ AMMA 2014/ NER W RCLS 2014-5 [Salutatorian] / NER Powered Flight Academy 2015

“A fiery strength inspires their lives, An essence that from heaven
derives,..." - Vergil, The Aeneid

(C) Copyright 2013: Readers who choose to hardcopy my comments are entitled to specific rights, namely: you may print them off and read them repeatedly until you have memorized them and then rattle them off as if you had thought them up yourself; However if asked, you must say they were signaled to you from a neutron star.
Pulsar
Forum Regular

Posts: 196
Unit: NER-PA----

« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2013, 06:02:10 PM »

So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?

Actually, you shouldn't.  I do it too, most parents do, but studies and experience show that it generally
doesn't accomplish the ultimate goal, it just makes things worse, and unless you practice the increasingly uncommon
"Nuclear Option" of corporal punishment, it eventually goes nowhere, just as countries threatening each other
with military strikes are considered impotent when they don't follow-through and tyrants when they do.

The first time you threaten a child and go nowhere, you're cooked, and left with nothing else in the tool bag to actually
fix the problem.

It comes down to your goals.  If all you're trying to do is an individual academic activity and are willing to fail those that don't pass, a standard classroom-type training works fine.  Are parents going to accept paying $200 for their child to go to encampment to find at the end of the week their child didn't graduate and will have to pay another $200 next year?  I don't think so - not for something mandatory for their child's advancement.

As a matter of fact, this is exactly what the new curriculum contains in its most current draft, and it's too long coming.

If academics is what you're after, encampment should not be mandatory and the required training should be offered at the squadron level.  If you expect cadets to come together that quickly with all of the things we want them to learn, holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn't going to cut it unless you do away with standards (in which case, again, what's the point of encampment).

An encampment's intended purpose is to enhance training received at the squadron level as well as present CAP in a standardized
way to provide tools and lessons that cadets bring back to their home squadrons to make things better.  Considering that they need Curry to get in, drill, basic discipline, ability to function in small squads, should not be new to any of them.

Owing to the inconsistencies in training across the organization, unfortunately, far too many cadets arrive at encampment
ill-prepared for the totality of the experience.  Many are away from home overnight for the first time in their lives,
may have no one else from their home unit attending, and might well have other issues that are either revealed or exacerbated
by the stress of the environment.  In a lot of cases yelling just shuts them down.

In days of olde, RDC's and DIs could, apparently inflict harm, and certainly PT, to coerce recruits - the yelling had a real threat on the end of it.  We do not have these tools, everyone is a willing volunteer in the process, and most cadets know that threats are hollow at best, beyond legit disciplinary action at which time our only recourse is membership termination.

When a recruit steps off the bus for BMT, he see the DI/TI/RDC as both a mythic-creature of epic experience and a huge gateway
to his ultimate goals.  There are also legal and real-word, whole life imlpications to disobeying. When a CAP cadet steps off the bus at encampment, he see the same goober cadet from his unit who yesterday had trouble with PT and rarely passes his academics on the first shot.  If that cadet starts yelling and acting hard-kewl, he's as likely to get laughed at as to be respected.

Nothing sets command tone and bearing like a cadet who can instruct his cadre in a direct, calm voice that shows
his experience and self-confidence, and nothing destroys it faster then one who runs himself out of breath trying to
emulate something he saw on TV.  Of course most of these cadets are unable to speak by day three, so sometimes it self-corrects.

BMT instructors have all been 'through it" themselves, receive direct and proper training, and then though peer-review before the
can train recruits, our people, simply put, do not.

People can do what they will with their kids, butif you're yelling at cadets for any reason other then to get their initial
attention, you're doing it wrong.

I've seen this before. It's up there. But its still not like PAWG. For one thing, PAWG never takes picture or video of staff really yelling.
Logged
C/LtCol Neutron Star
PAWG ENC 2013/ AMMA 2014/ NER W RCLS 2014-5 [Salutatorian] / NER Powered Flight Academy 2015

“A fiery strength inspires their lives, An essence that from heaven
derives,..." - Vergil, The Aeneid

(C) Copyright 2013: Readers who choose to hardcopy my comments are entitled to specific rights, namely: you may print them off and read them repeatedly until you have memorized them and then rattle them off as if you had thought them up yourself; However if asked, you must say they were signaled to you from a neutron star.
ol'fido
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,877
Unit: DOTCOTE.

« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2013, 06:09:27 PM »

I just did a recount. Next year will mark my 21st encampment in CAP. Never in all that time, did I get the "in your face" treatment. I didn't get it as a cadet and wouldn't tolerate it as a senior. I would not even tolerate it the first couple of days with our cadets.

You cannot play "Mr. Nice Guy" or start out at medium intensity and ratchet it up as needed. The staff needs to be firm, professional, and intense without the need for yelling or in-your-face antics. The cadets need clear and challenging but obtainable goals and tasks to complete all through the week. The pressure comes from the schedule, the expectation of excellence, and the desire not to be "that cadet" that let everyone down.  It does not come from being yelled at. Constant yelling at a group becomes white noise after a while. It loses effectiveness with frequency in other words. Constant yelling at an individual may result in that cadet performing better, but it is just as likely to make that cadet fall even farther behind as they try to deal with the constant demands that they may not be ready for or they may give up all together. The best you can hope for is that they do enough not to get yelled at. That's not what we want.

On the other hand, if you try to do the "New Age", non-competitive, everybody gets a prize type of encampment, the cadets will learn that mediocrity is acceptable. They will not be challenged. They will think along the lines of "why do I have to get up early, go to all these boring classes, make my bed right, etc." if no matter what I do they are going to give me the ribbon, the certificate, and the magic "Mitchell Award" sign off. That isn't what we want either.

How do you find the middle ground here? First, you have a well thought out, organized, and competent program. Then you have staff, both senior and cadet, that are trained, experienced, and willing to try the harder way to do things. Yes, I said the harder way to do things. Any bozo can yell at a cadet and run them all over the place til they are ready to collapse. It takes someone with some talent to get results from a cadet without resorting to yelling or in-your-face tactics, but it can be done. The other thing you do is to avoid stagnation. Cadets and seniors should move up and do something different. Seniors may have the same job for a couple of years, but your cadets should move up regularly. Circumstances may dictate that a cadet return to the same position for a second year but this should be avoided if possible. In this way, your senior cadets can train the new cadets that are coming up. They can also help to establish your encampments "culture" for years to come. It's up to the seniors to decide what the culture will be. It can also take years to root out a bad culture.

This all boils down to leadership. Leadership that is competent and compassionate.
Logged
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,589

« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2013, 06:14:26 PM »

^ This, all the way, all day.

I've heard too many stories of encampments and similar activities being handled like long unit meetings - poor or no plan,
wing it when you get there, fall back on yelling and drill.

That might get you through the week, but it defeats the purpose.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Pulsar
Forum Regular

Posts: 196
Unit: NER-PA----

« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2013, 06:19:44 PM »

I just did a recount. Next year will mark my 21st encampment in CAP. Never in all that time, did I get the "in your face" treatment. I didn't get it as a cadet and wouldn't tolerate it as a senior. I would not even tolerate it the first couple of days with our cadets.

You cannot play "Mr. Nice Guy" or start out at medium intensity and ratchet it up as needed. The staff needs to be firm, professional, and intense without the need for yelling or in-your-face antics. The cadets need clear and challenging but obtainable goals and tasks to complete all through the week. The pressure comes from the schedule, the expectation of excellence, and the desire not to be "that cadet" that let everyone down.  It does not come from being yelled at. Constant yelling at a group becomes white noise after a while. It loses effectiveness with frequency in other words. Constant yelling at an individual may result in that cadet performing better, but it is just as likely to make that cadet fall even farther behind as they try to deal with the constant demands that they may not be ready for or they may give up all together. The best you can hope for is that they do enough not to get yelled at. That's not what we want.

On the other hand, if you try to do the "New Age", non-competitive, everybody gets a prize type of encampment, the cadets will learn that mediocrity is acceptable. They will not be challenged. They will think along the lines of "why do I have to get up early, go to all these boring classes, make my bed right, etc." if no matter what I do they are going to give me the ribbon, the certificate, and the magic "Mitchell Award" sign off. That isn't what we want either.



:clap: - for a tiny bit of it.
Like I said, there were only a handful of instances at the very beginning. Only certain male staff would really get in your face. Generally, the staff would yell at you as a group.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 07:22:52 PM by Pulsar » Logged
C/LtCol Neutron Star
PAWG ENC 2013/ AMMA 2014/ NER W RCLS 2014-5 [Salutatorian] / NER Powered Flight Academy 2015

“A fiery strength inspires their lives, An essence that from heaven
derives,..." - Vergil, The Aeneid

(C) Copyright 2013: Readers who choose to hardcopy my comments are entitled to specific rights, namely: you may print them off and read them repeatedly until you have memorized them and then rattle them off as if you had thought them up yourself; However if asked, you must say they were signaled to you from a neutron star.
Pulsar
Forum Regular

Posts: 196
Unit: NER-PA----

« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2013, 06:23:43 PM »

^ This, all the way, all day.

I've heard too many stories of encampments and similar activities being handled like long unit meetings - poor or no plan,
wing it when you get there, fall back on yelling and drill.

That might get you through the week, but it defeats the purpose.

it was quite organized. quite
Logged
C/LtCol Neutron Star
PAWG ENC 2013/ AMMA 2014/ NER W RCLS 2014-5 [Salutatorian] / NER Powered Flight Academy 2015

“A fiery strength inspires their lives, An essence that from heaven
derives,..." - Vergil, The Aeneid

(C) Copyright 2013: Readers who choose to hardcopy my comments are entitled to specific rights, namely: you may print them off and read them repeatedly until you have memorized them and then rattle them off as if you had thought them up yourself; However if asked, you must say they were signaled to you from a neutron star.
ol'fido
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,877
Unit: DOTCOTE.

« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2013, 06:33:01 PM »

I just did a recount. Next year will mark my 21st encampment in CAP. Never in all that time, did I get the "in your face" treatment. I didn't get it as a cadet and wouldn't tolerate it as a senior. I would not even tolerate it the first couple of days with our cadets.

You cannot play "Mr. Nice Guy" or start out at medium intensity and ratchet it up as needed. The staff needs to be firm, professional, and intense without the need for yelling or in-your-face antics. The cadets need clear and challenging but obtainable goals and tasks to complete all through the week. The pressure comes from the schedule, the expectation of excellence, and the desire not to be "that cadet" that let everyone down.  It does not come from being yelled at. Constant yelling at a group becomes white noise after a while. It loses effectiveness with frequency in other words. Constant yelling at an individual may result in that cadet performing better, but it is just as likely to make that cadet fall even farther behind as they try to deal with the constant demands that they may not be ready for or they may give up all together. The best you can hope for is that they do enough not to get yelled at. That's not what we want.

On the other hand, if you try to do the "New Age", non-competitive, everybody gets a prize type of encampment, the cadets will learn that mediocrity is acceptable. They will not be challenged. They will think along the lines of "why do I have to get up early, go to all these boring classes, make my bed right, etc." if no matter what I do they are going to give me the ribbon, the certificate, and the magic "Mitchell Award" sign off. That isn't what we want either.



:clap:  :clap: (thanx)
Like I said, there were only a handful of instances at the very beginning. Only certain male staff would really get in your face. Generally, the staff would yell at you as a group.
Do this then. Go back as cadet staff. If you turn senior, go back as senior staff. YOU can start changing the culture of the encampment in ways beyond your rank or age. If you show the in-your-face types that you can get just as good a result without the yelling, it's a start. I went back as senior in 1997 after hearing some stories like yours from my cadets. I found that they were in some cases exaggeration but in too many they were true. I was a squadron TAC. Myself and a few friends kept coming back and doing different things until this next year when I will be in command of the encampment. In those years, the three or four of us who started out as junior captains were able to substantially change the culture of our encampment. YOU can do the same.

Randy L. Mitchell
LtCol, CAP
Commander, 2014 ILWG Summer Encampment
Logged
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006
Pulsar
Forum Regular

Posts: 196
Unit: NER-PA----

« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2013, 07:54:05 PM »

I just did a recount. Next year will mark my 21st encampment in CAP. Never in all that time, did I get the "in your face" treatment. I didn't get it as a cadet and wouldn't tolerate it as a senior. I would not even tolerate it the first couple of days with our cadets.

You cannot play "Mr. Nice Guy" or start out at medium intensity and ratchet it up as needed. The staff needs to be firm, professional, and intense without the need for yelling or in-your-face antics. The cadets need clear and challenging but obtainable goals and tasks to complete all through the week. The pressure comes from the schedule, the expectation of excellence, and the desire not to be "that cadet" that let everyone down.  It does not come from being yelled at. Constant yelling at a group becomes white noise after a while. It loses effectiveness with frequency in other words. Constant yelling at an individual may result in that cadet performing better, but it is just as likely to make that cadet fall even farther behind as they try to deal with the constant demands that they may not be ready for or they may give up all together. The best you can hope for is that they do enough not to get yelled at. That's not what we want.

On the other hand, if you try to do the "New Age", non-competitive, everybody gets a prize type of encampment, the cadets will learn that mediocrity is acceptable. They will not be challenged. They will think along the lines of "why do I have to get up early, go to all these boring classes, make my bed right, etc." if no matter what I do they are going to give me the ribbon, the certificate, and the magic "Mitchell Award" sign off. That isn't what we want either.



:clap:  :clap: (thanx)
Like I said, there were only a handful of instances at the very beginning. Only certain male staff would really get in your face. Generally, the staff would yell at you as a group.
Do this then. Go back as cadet staff. If you turn senior, go back as senior staff. YOU can start changing the culture of the encampment in ways beyond your rank or age. If you show the in-your-face types that you can get just as good a result without the yelling, it's a start. I went back as senior in 1997 after hearing some stories like yours from my cadets. I found that they were in some cases exaggeration but in too many they were true. I was a squadron TAC. Myself and a few friends kept coming back and doing different things until this next year when I will be in command of the encampment. In those years, the three or four of us who started out as junior captains were able to substantially change the culture of our encampment. YOU can do the same.

Randy L. Mitchell
LtCol, CAP
Commander, 2014 ILWG Summer Encampment

I would like to do that. But Let me rephrase: "I agree with a few sentences he said". I still lean way toward Elioron. I don't think it's okay to go too overboard. I think yelling is a great tool (for an encampment; not for leadership in a weekly meeting), but in-your-face for a cadet is a little much.  But then we have to get into the definitions of "overboard" and of course we're already way off the original topic.  I still hold to that I  received some of the absolute best training in followership one could ask for in CAP - from an encampment. I loved ENC and so did everyone else in my squadron.
sorry if I misstated my opinion.  :-[
Logged
C/LtCol Neutron Star
PAWG ENC 2013/ AMMA 2014/ NER W RCLS 2014-5 [Salutatorian] / NER Powered Flight Academy 2015

“A fiery strength inspires their lives, An essence that from heaven
derives,..." - Vergil, The Aeneid

(C) Copyright 2013: Readers who choose to hardcopy my comments are entitled to specific rights, namely: you may print them off and read them repeatedly until you have memorized them and then rattle them off as if you had thought them up yourself; However if asked, you must say they were signaled to you from a neutron star.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,877
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2013, 11:23:48 PM »

Yelling has several purposes within our culture.  While it can be used to convey anger and intimidation, it can also convey urgency or excitement, used for emphasis, and for communicating over distance.  There are plenty of reasons to yell, and it doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.

You're getting wrapped around the axle with the yelling thing.

Don't.

It is only a lesser part of the behaviour in the OP, and you are consistently ignoring that. The reasons they were being yelled at were just as bad, and that's the bigger part of the problem.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Elioron
Forum Regular

Posts: 123
Unit: PCR-WA-019

« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2013, 12:09:06 AM »

You're getting wrapped around the axle with the yelling thing.

Don't.

Yes, sir.  I have mistaken some posts that were in response to the OP to be responding to other replies I've made.

It is only a lesser part of the behaviour in the OP, and you are consistently ignoring that. The reasons they were being yelled at were just as bad, and that's the bigger part of the problem.

I agree that the behavior described was bad, regardless of the yelling.  My point was to separate yelling from abuse, as it seems that some respondents are stating that yelling in any way around cadets is abusive.  I've heard this before and know of people who wholeheartedly believe it (with all children, not just cadets).  I believe that such a model would be harmful.  If members (particularly SMs) are worried that they could be suspended for hazing because they spoke too loudly and someone complained it would discourage members from speaking up when they should.  This isn't directly included in the OP, but it is related to some of the responses and something I've dealt with recently (with other parents outside of CAP).
Logged
Scott W. Dean, Capt, CAP
CDS/DOS/ITO/Comm/LGT/Admin - CP
PCR-WA-019
BillB
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2013, 06:58:16 AM »

There is no justification for yelling at cadets at a squadron meeting. However, encampments are a totally different animal. As one former Wing Commander told me, "encampments are a short period of time to correct the errors at the squadron level." Even then yelling is not fully justified after the 2nd day of an encampment. Errors might include D&C uniforms, or other aspects of the military bearing found in lazy squadrons. Encapments are not boot camp, but there are aspects of a boot camp for Basics at an encampment until the Flight Commanders learn the weakness's of each individual. A loud voice, maybe not yelling works wonders on the 1st or 2nd day and at the Flight level only. The key is to put your sharpest cadets in leadership positions at the Flight and Squadron level.
Logged
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,083

« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2013, 12:11:34 PM »

Sorry to be a bit late to this interesting thread.

Initially, I'd like to note that the word "yelling" is a little fuzzy in this context and does not mean the same thing to everyone here.  For some, "yelling" means "to say something very loudly because you are angry, surprised, or trying to get someone's attention" (Merriam - Webster).  For others, it simply means "to shout at a loud volume" (Cambridge Dictionary).

That's one of the reasons I avoided using the term in the Cadet Protection Policy Implementation Guide , which discusses military intensity levels at CAP activities.

But I think we can all agree that a raised voice can sometimes be a useful tool in every leader's tool box.  And like every other tool, a raised voice can be misused or ineffective when used incorrectly.

There is nothing inherently wrong with raising your voice in a military training situation.  Learning when and how to use that tool is just one of the things we teach in our leadership laboratory.

Ultimately, much of the discussion here is about how to define the "look and feel" of encampment, and how to effectively communicate that to CP leaders so that they can reliably recreate it at their own activities.

Most of us "know how to do encampment" because we have been to encampment before.  Sometimes several times.  But relatively few of us have an opportunity to go to encampments in other wings, so it is probably inevitable that there is significant variation in how the wings go about their encampments.

We have discussed at some length in other threads how difficult it is to define and describe what we call the military intensity level.  Even our colleagues in the armed forces have had some difficulty in this regard.  We all recognize it when we see it; but trying to clearly put into words the difference between Lackland and Llama camp in a way that is easily understood by seniors, cadets, and parents is tricky stuff.

Which is why NHQ wrote the 52-23, The Cadet Protection Policy Implementation Guide.  It has been out for a couple of years now, and provides leaders a tool to define and set intensity levels at all cadet activities, including encampment.





We need to have a "National Camp School" (to steal from the BSA again) where each wing must send a few members to each year.   This is where they learn the standards and help set the base line.

It's a terrific idea, and one that we seriously considered.  But we couldn't make the numbers work.  Just a couple of air fares to Maxwell AFB every year is larger than the entire budget of many wing CP directorates.

Quote
We also need NHQ to send an inspector to each encampment (at least for 1 day) to see what's going on and help curb this sort of thing.

Believe me, we would love to do that.  But the entire NHQ cadet section consists of just two folks these days (down from five just three years ago).  And they are already overtasked with running the section, writing doctrine, and coordinating our many outstanding NCSAs (which also take place in the summer.)  Not to mention the significant amount of travel money it would take to send a NHQ visitor to each of the roughly 40 encampments that are held throughout the organization.

We do try to send some of the volunteer national CP staffers to an event or two each year, but again, resources are simply not there to support significant amounts of volunteer travel.

Quote
Also.....instead of wing level encampments......what about regional level encampments that run 4-5 sessions per summer?
Easier to control content of only 8+/- programs instead of 50+/- programs.
Cheaper in the we are not re-inventing the wheel at 50 +/- locations.
Transportation may be an issue.....but if you can travel all the way across TX or CA to get to an encampment.....going to the regional facility is not going to be a deal breaker.

Another great idea.  And as you know, we did try "National Encampments" for a couple of years.


But again, we cannot make the numbers work.  Travel for the students is the real killer here.  As a former CAWG DCP I know the sacrifice made by parents and members driving cadets 3-4 hours to encampment, then turning around and driving home.  And doing it again a week later.  Some of the most difficult conversations I had concerned why encampment and other activities were always conducted "so far away."  Reasonable minds can differ, but I have found that most parents don't want to drive over 8 hours in one day to drop their kid off at encampment.  Call it a 240 mile radius.

Take a moment and draw a 250 mile circle around the major population centers in the US and tell me what you see.  (Hint: there are over 30 cities in the US with a population of over 500,000.)

So, in almost any multi-state / region type encampment situation, many of the troops are going to have to fly in.  And that essentially doubles the price of encampment for cadets who aren't lucky enough to live within a reasonable drive of the encampment flag pole.

Now try to factor in military facilities with sufficient barracks / transient quarters that are near APOEs with decent airfares.  And that won't cancel us out due to higher priority troop billeting requirements that may come up.

Finally, don't forget about AK, HI, and PR/USVI.

We really, really have tried to think outside the box on this.  Maybe smarter people can figure out how to do it given the available resources.
Logged
Phil Hirons, Jr.
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 793
Unit: NER-RI-033

« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2013, 12:30:19 PM »

Quote
Also.....instead of wing level encampments......what about regional level encampments that run 4-5 sessions per summer?
Easier to control content of only 8+/- programs instead of 50+/- programs.
Cheaper in the we are not re-inventing the wheel at 50 +/- locations.
Transportation may be an issue.....but if you can travel all the way across TX or CA to get to an encampment.....going to the regional facility is not going to be a deal breaker.

Another great idea.  And as you know, we did try "National Encampments" for a couple of years.


But again, we cannot make the numbers work.  Travel for the students is the real killer here.  As a former CAWG DCP I know the sacrifice made by parents and members driving cadets 3-4 hours to encampment, then turning around and driving home.  And doing it again a week later.  Some of the most difficult conversations I had concerned why encampment and other activities were always conducted "so far away."  Reasonable minds can differ, but I have found that most parents don't want to drive over 8 hours in one day to drop their kid off at encampment.  Call it a 240 mile radius.

Take a moment and draw a 250 mile circle around the major population centers in the US and tell me what you see.  (Hint: there are over 30 cities in the US with a population of over 500,000.)

So, in almost any multi-state / region type encampment situation, many of the troops are going to have to fly in.  And that essentially doubles the price of encampment for cadets who aren't lucky enough to live within a reasonable drive of the encampment flag pole.

Now try to factor in military facilities with sufficient barracks / transient quarters that are near APOEs with decent airfares.  And that won't cancel us out due to higher priority troop billeting requirements that may come up.

Sadly this radius shrinks as the size of the states shrink. If RI and CT conducted a joint encampment it would be too far for some parents regardless of where in the 2 states we put it.
Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,499
Unit: of issue

« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2013, 12:35:37 PM »

Driving 4 hrs for encampment is "de rigeur" in MI Wing. And thats if you live in metro Detroit.

Don't be from Kalamazoo.
Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Walkman
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,229
Unit: GLR-MI-009

Eurekaville Advertising & Design
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2013, 01:45:50 PM »

Don't be from Kalamazoo.

That's my stompn' grounds!  ;D  Kalamazoo Composite Squadron!

Actually, I think the Benton Harbor Flight has it worse than us for encampment. They're an hour further west.

Encampment may be the only time those more remote units have an easier time getting to a wing activity than the rest of the state.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,589

« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2013, 02:22:26 PM »

Ned -

we're a volunteer organization with motivated members who receive tax breaks for expenses, and...we have airplanes.

If we can't find a way within that paradigm to get better supervision at our encampments, we're simply not trying hard enough.

You have to admit, there's as much political inertia in this idea as there are logistical challenges.  I would present the
recent wailing when NHQ changed the policies regarding RCLS' as an example of the "this is how we've always done things" pressure in many wings and regions.

An "NHQ encampment team" doesn't have to mean "drag everyone to Maxwell", nor does it have to mean "everyone from Maxwell get on a commercial plane".  Solicit experienced former encampment commanders and staff, members with a track record of success, train them virtually, and have them work within their immediate area.

In most cases, just having a non-staff observer from another wing hanging around would bring a "knock it off" to a lot of nonsense.
And a follow-up AAR would potentially bring visibility to both "worst practices" >and< "best practices". 

When I was an encampment commander, I regularly received questions about "what and why', but since we didn't do anything
"under the table", etc., I had no issues answering them, and on the occasions where we missed something or got it wrong,
I welcomed the chance to make things better.

The problem right now is that in many wings, the DCP, who is supposed to be directly responsible for insuring that wing activities are
compliant and properly executed, is either inexperienced, disinterested ("don't want to rock the boat", or comes from the very
activities they are supposed to oversee.

Losing the SD's and RAPs in regards to encampment oversight and certification is not going to make this better.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,083

« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2013, 03:44:44 PM »

Bob,
Don't get me wrong.  I really would love to have an Encampment Commanders / Project Officers Course.  And personally, I cannot imagine a better way to spend my summer than visiting a dozen or more encampments and sharing best practices.
And I'm sorry you don't think NHQ is trying hard enough. 
 
Ned -
we're a volunteer organization with motivated members who receive tax breaks for expenses, and...we have airplanes.

We've talked about this before, of course, but every time I actually run the numbers, it is almost never cheaper to use a corporate aircraft for move a volunteer hundreds of miles when compared to discount airfare on a commercial aircraft. 

Which is perhaps why commercial airlines exist.

But let's try an example.  Let's send an hypothetical NHQ staffer to take a look at the COWG encampment. 

As of today, SWA will sell me a ticket from Birmingham to Denver for $213, taxes included.  (And bags fly free!)

It looks like DEN is about 1,300 miles from BHM.  A trusty corporate 172 - at maximum economy cruise (55% power going about 100 kts / 115 mph) - uses about 6.5 gph, so it looks like it will take roughly 11 flight hours to get there, using about 73 gallons of aviation fuel.  Which I can probably get for about $6 a gallon on average.  So fuel alone costs about twice as much as flying in the back of a 737.

I'm not sure how "motivated volunteers" and tax breaks affect that, but maybe I'm missing your point.


Quote
If we can't find a way within that paradigm to get better supervision at our encampments, we're simply not trying hard enough.

We are indeed working very hard within our resource constraints.  That is exactly why we have or are fielding two new documents aimed squarely at this particular issue - the 52-23 and the new encampment guidance.

And we continue to welcome any additional suggestions on how to standardize and supervise our encampment program.

Quote
You have to admit, there's as much political inertia in this idea as there are logistical challenges. 

Strongest possible non-concur.  At least when it comes to the NHQ and the senior leadership.  Indeed, the whole point of the new encampment guidance.

Quote
An "NHQ encampment team" doesn't have to mean "drag everyone to Maxwell", nor does it have to mean "everyone from Maxwell get on a commercial plane". 

I can only agree that we can get together in places other than NHQ, but I thought Patrick's point was to send one or more reps from each wing that does an encampment.  If you do that, by definition you have to get together somewhere.  With all the costs that that entails.

Quote
Solicit experienced former encampment commanders and staff, members with a track record of success, train them virtually, and have them work within their immediate area.

It sounds like we agree that it can be cost-efficient to do remote training. 

Which, again, is why we have written and are in the process of fielding new guidance for encampments, including these "look and feel" issues.

Quote
In most cases, just having a non-staff observer from another wing hanging around would bring a "knock it off" to a lot of nonsense.

Agreed, but we probably need to have some sort of guidance that requires commanders to carefully consider the input from the observer and respond appropriately. 

When we do this informally, sometimes the "outsiders" are afraid to speak up, and sometimes their input is not taken as seriously as it should be.  Let me think about how to do this.


Quote
And a follow-up AAR would potentially bring visibility to both "worst practices" >and< "best practices".  When I was an encampment commander, I regularly received questions about "what and why', but since we didn't do anything "under the table", etc., I had no issues answering them, and on the occasions where we missed something or got it wrong, I welcomed the chance to make things better.
The problem right now is that in many wings, the DCP, who is supposed to be directly responsible for insuring that wing activities are compliant and properly executed, is either inexperienced, disinterested ("don't want to rock the boat", or comes from the very activities they are supposed to oversee.

Losing the SD's and RAPs in regards to encampment oversight and certification is not going to make this better.

I'm not sure what kind or level of AAR you are suggesting here.  I can't imagine that a wing would have an encampment -- often the largest single activity a wing does in terms of budget and volunteer resources -- without some sort of evaluation / AAR. 

Perhaps we could include some sort of "AAR Guide" in the new Encampment Guide, that includes some items that directly address intensity levels and "look and feel" items.


The SD's and RAPs historically have never been trained or particularly experienced in our encampment program.  While they by definition have substantial military experience, that is not always helpful when it comes to things like intensity levels.  In the 30 or so encampments I have attended, even before the cutbacks it was relatively rare to have an SD or RAP on the ground for the full week in any event.  When they were on site, they tended to be "8-5" folks who made sure our vans were inspected and the obstacle course saftey-checked.  If we were lucky, they spent time with the training officer going over the curricula to ensure it met published standards.

But not much more than that.  In this area, we need to police ourselves and hold ourselves to our regulatory standards.

Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,589

« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2013, 05:43:31 PM »

My point is, we don't go from AL to CO.  You have folks in those wings and Regions trained properly and they can drive there - review the curriculum, observe operations, report back to whatever echelon cares.  Honestly, it really seems like the assumption  at NHQ is that if it's a national initiative, NHQ people have to physically be there.

As to AARs, I seriously doubt the majority of wings are doing anything formal beyond the bare minimum requirements.  Certainly NHQ never asked for anything of me, and we're in essentially the first year in which the SD (now LRADO) is not certifying the activity.  In fact,
despite the rhetoric in the new draft, there's no specific requirement CAP-USAF or the USAF be involved at >all<.   

Self-audit has never been a strong-suit of CAP.

The inertia I speak of is decidedly local, but requires considerable intestinal fortitude to impact change, and that assumes the
Wing CC and / or staff
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Elioron
Forum Regular

Posts: 123
Unit: PCR-WA-019

« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2013, 06:07:56 PM »

...there's no specific requirement CAP-USAF or the USAF be involved at >all<.

Unless we got the directive from CAP-USAF we can't require their involvement in anything specific.  That's not to say we shouldn't try, but not require.

As far as inspections, what if there was a system in place similar to SAREVAL for ES?  Every couple of years, a few CP folks from other wings observe an encampment within their Region.  Inspectors would be trained by NHQ via a distance learning system and through National/Regional conferences.  Having a team rather than an individual would help to give balance to the feedback and their findings could be shared with NHQ and other Region/Wing CP personnel.  Again, it would probably be great for CAP-USAF to get involved as well, but that's more up to them.
Logged
Scott W. Dean, Capt, CAP
CDS/DOS/ITO/Comm/LGT/Admin - CP
PCR-WA-019
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 8 Print 
CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tall Tales  |  Topic: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.483 seconds with 20 queries.