Discussion - Uniforms: How Many and What For?

[ddelaney103]

Since the Colonel is a little grumpy about comments in his poll, here's a place to talk about this.

To start off, I think the major problem with having so many uniforms is lack of guidance on what to wear when.  Truthfully, I have so other problems but I'm trying to avoid a "you're not Hooah enough to be in my CAP" flame war.

To continue, lot of organizations have multiple uniforms - the USN and USMC have piles.  However, they get better instruction on what to wear when.

Here is a simple chart showing a suggested uniform ranking system, from most formal to least.

Formalwear (Mess Dress or Blazer w/bow tie option)
Worn for times when civilian formalwear would be appropriate, such as dining out's

Winter Dress (Service Dress, TPU or Blazer)
Worn for official ceremonies, especially those with outside organizations

Summer Dress (short sleeve service, white and blues and white and greys)
Worn for official ceremonies, especially those with outside organizations when weather makes Winter Dress impractical

Duty Uniform (BDU, BBDU, blue jumpsuit, flightsuit)
Worn for normal meetings and mission duties

Golf Shirt (blue or white golf shirt)
Worn for proficiency flying between missions and mission duties where other organizations would wear golf shirts - an example of this is a State EOC where the State Police, EMA, and federal organizations would be wearing their golf shirts

This would allow a commander to not only designate a Uniform of the Day, but also to provide guidance to new members on what they need to buy to fit in.

[LtCol White]

No, its not that i'm being grumpy. We already have many threads for discussions.

I'm just trying to get a YES/NO opinion answer rather than duplicating the debates on the various uniform threads. I think the results of the poll will be useful to the various discussion threads when we see what folks think. Thats all. I thought i was rather polite in my asking that there not be debate on there.

[LtCol White]

I think it should be a one for one of the USAF/Corporates.

The gray and golfshirts can go away. Just because other agencies have golf shirts doesn't mean that CAP has to have them as an authorized uniform.

For many years we had only the USAF and blazer uniform along with the light blue "smurf suit" and this was more than sufficient. Dont really see what it would not be just as feasible to go back to the same concept.

[Psicorp]

...I'm trying to avoid a "you're not Hooah enough to be in my CAP" flame war.

There isn't a need for that, nor should there ever be.   There are a couple of people in my unit who don't want anything to do with the military pomp and circumstance and will not wear an AF uniform, and that's fine, I can respect that until it becomes hypocritical (which it hasn't).

To continue, lot of organizations have multiple uniforms - the USN and USMC have piles.  However, they get better instruction on what to wear when.

So they have a couple of work uniforms depending on what you're doing, an office/semi-flashy uniform, a flashy uniform, a very flashy uniform, and a ceremonial uniform, they really aren't that redundant.  

Formal wear:  the Mess Dress.  There really isn't another uniform that is as formal as that...so the alternative would be to wear a tux.

The rest gets tricky because if there isn't going to be a female version of the TPU, then we might as well get rid of the TPU coat.   If we're going for a Corporate look, then why don't we just change the blazer to blue or gray (pick one) and use the existing blazer nameplate in liu of a military looking coat.

Why is there the dual combination of blue pants/white shirt and gray pants/white shirt?   They're both a Corporate uniform, so National can set the standards...pick one, 86 the other.  Eliminate the use of the AF epaulets, go with the current gray, or get us all changed over to the blue with the CAP embroidery.

The jumpsuit is going away, 86ed, thrown out...thank you National.

What is left over all makes sense using what you have written.

(just the opinion of a lowly LT, feel free to ignore, most do   )

[DNall]

I think it should be a one for one of the USAF/Corporates.

Agree 100%, and enforce UOD for event & duty.

Formal: Tux/Mess dress
Semi-Formal/business: TPU/Full-service dress
Office/standard: Blues/white-blue (LS/SS by weather, LS always w/ tie, slides note below)
Utility: BBDU/BDU
Flight util: Blue Flt suit/Green flt suit

Notes:
1) IF you are on flt status (active aircrew) the flt suit is fine to wear for util on mtg nights when cadets would be in BDUs, wear the BDU/BBDU in GT or work type situations or when max uniformity is desired.

2) Slides: Embroider CAP on the AF slides for the white blue combo, recommend use those slides also on the TPU coat rather than metal grade... maybe at some point in the future (after AF gets comfortable w/ TPU & is in a good mood) we can make a case to standardize to those blue slides (w/ CAP) and the two line blue nametag.

Either that or use gray slides on the white/blue combo including the coat. One way or another we need to move toward standardization (don't need 6+ nametages).


I disagree with some things that have been done on uniforms, but we're there now so need to move forward with what we got to consolidate & make the best situation for members & the org.

[ddelaney103]

For many years we had only the USAF and blazer uniform along with the light blue "smurf suit" and this was more than sufficient. Dont really see what it would not be just as feasible to go back to the same concept.

You are incorrect, sir - there was the BDUWO/Grade and the Flt Suit WO/Grade.  The smurf was useless for field work and marginal for flight duty.

[LtCol White]

And you are correct. Sorry about the omission. There have been SOOO many changes over the years that I forgot about those.

[CAP Producer]

The rest gets tricky because if there isn't going to be a female version of the TPU, then we might as well get rid of the TPU coat.

Don't worry LT, your opinion is as valuable as the 2 star's is.

Actually there is a female version of the TPU Coat. Brig Gen Courter wore it at the Legislative Day this year in DC. Here is a linky to the picture:

http://mhuchette.albumpost.com/album06/DSCF3892

The sleeve braid is wrong (should be the larger braid) and she is wearing the wrong name tag but the uniform looks good otherwise.

Hope this helps.

Capt Al Pabon
MNWG/PA
NCR/PAD

[A.Member]

Don't worry LT, your opinion is as valuable as the 2 star's is.

Actually there is a female version of the TPU Coat. Brig Gen Courter wore it at the Legislative Day this year in DC. Here is a linky to the picture:

http://mhuchette.albumpost.com/album06/DSCF3892

The sleeve braid is wrong (should be the larger braid) and she is wearing the wrong name tag but the uniform looks good otherwise.

Hope this helps.

Capt Al Pabon
MNWG/PA
NCR/PAD

Are you sure she wasn't just wearing a men's coat?  Also, does it have a skirt and/or slacks?

[ddelaney103]

The big problem with adopting the TPU or white and blues is the grooming question.  It's now set up that we have three levels of uniform:

h/w and grooming standards met = AF-style
grooming standards met = TPU/white and blues
cannot meet either = blazer/white and grays

My suggestion is that we relax the grooming standards (USN/USCG style beards OK) or provide easy access to medical/religious waivers and go to the TPU family of uniforms.

I'd still prefer the option I put forward in "Going Gray at 65:" just using the gray epaulets for all our service and service dress uniforms.

[LtCol White]

The big problem with adopting the TPU or white and blues is the grooming question.  It's now set up that we have three levels of uniform:

h/w and grooming standards met = AF-style
grooming standards met = TPU/white and blues
cannot meet either = blazer/white and grays

My suggestion is that we relax the grooming standards (USN/USCG style beards OK) or provide easy access to medical/religious waivers and go to the TPU family of uniforms.

I'd still prefer the option I put forward in "Going Gray at 65:" just using the gray epaulets for all our service and service dress uniforms.

One thing is for certain, USAF will NEVER relax the standards to allow for grooming in the USAF uniform

[Psicorp]

The rest gets tricky because if there isn't going to be a female version of the TPU, then we might as well get rid of the TPU coat.

Don't worry LT, your opinion is as valuable as the 2 star's is.

Actually there is a female version of the TPU Coat. Brig Gen Courter wore it at the Legislative Day this year in DC. Here is a linky to the picture:

http://mhuchette.albumpost.com/album06/DSCF3892

The sleeve braid is wrong (should be the larger braid) and she is wearing the wrong name tag but the uniform looks good otherwise.

Hope this helps.

Capt Al Pabon
MNWG/PA
NCR/PAD

Thank you, sir, that's the first I've seen or heard about it. 

[ColonelJack]

Are you sure she wasn't just wearing a men's coat?  Also, does it have a skirt and/or slacks?

It's easy to tell Gen. Courter's coat is a female design ... the outer flap buttons from the right side, not the left.  (The reverse of what a man's coat does.)

That, and from what I can tell, there's a definite narrowing at the waist, as a female blouse would do.

With a general officer's braid and the correct silver nameplate, that's a sharp-looking jacket on a nice-looking general.  (No offense intended, if anyone took any.)

Jack

[A.Member]

With a general officer's braid and the correct silver nameplate, it's still a silly looking jacket on a nice-looking general.  (No offense intended, if anyone took any.)

Fixed it for you.  

[ColonelJack]

It's now set up that we have three levels of uniform:

h/w and grooming standards met = AF-style
grooming standards met = TPU/white and blues
cannot meet either = blazer/white and grays

I had earlier suggested just a one-for-one match for those who do meet AF standards and those who don't ... and in doing so, I left out the fuzzies.  Many apologies.  I like the three-way split there.  Three basic service uniforms, two utility uniforms (BDUs and BBDUs), and two flight suits.  And those that want can wear blazers anyway.

Abracadabra?

Jack

[ColonelJack]

With a general officer's braid and the correct silver nameplate, it's still a silly looking jacket on a nice-looking general.  (No offense intended, if anyone took any.)

Fixed it for you.  

You evil, evil man!     What can I say?  I like the Corporate uniform!  And on a lady ... oh, my.

Jack

[Major Carrales]

It is my hope that a uniform will stabilize by the end of the decade.

I would like to present what I think is likely to happen... pure speculation and purely OBJECTIVE...I do not hold these as my beliefs, but as a possible plan that coudl be based on trneds I have noticed in CAP and in CAP discussions.  In fact, I'm actually against a lot of this. (The horizontal rule indicates where Speculation begins and ends...

Once the USAF adopts the Heritage Uniforms, CAP will remain in the Old Style Service Coat (Current "new style") for a significant time.  A debate will rage at a future CAP National Board/BOG et al about what to do.

Options will include: 1) Keep the "Old Style" as CAP distinctive with metal rank 2) Scrap the current distinctive coat 3) Adopt the current distinctive service coat as the universal CAP service coat 4) Scrap all other service coats for the new Heritage coat with radical CAP distinctive features...maybe even sleeve rank a la McPEAK.

These discussions will rapidly consume most of us on what ever future "CAPTALK" looks like.

I can see the CAP Distinctive service coat become "system wide," maybe even belted (if the USAF adopts that standard), the USAF will adopt that as the CAP uniform in their regulations...thus ending the "we need to look like the USAF" debate since it will be part of the USAF Instructions.

If that happens, I could sepculate that the undershirts would likely remain white with USAF style shoulder marks.  All ribbons would be wearable since it would be a USAF uniform with CAP H/W standards.  The White/Greys and Gold Shirts would disappear infavor of the white shirts.  Since these are also CAP uniforms and CAP is set to being what is it, the CIVIL AIR PATROL, H/W standards would be a bit more lacks than those of the USAF to an even greater degree  than today.

Those well over the requirements might not be acceptable...or, there might be an allowance made in the form of an "alternate shirt," with a CAP shield over the left pocket in a colour that would distinguish them from anything that looked Air Force.  That shirt would be non-epauleted and maybe a darker shade of light blue...denim?  The pants would be universal for all service dress, and what some might call "class B" uniforms as well as for the distinctive shirt.

Only one field uniform only one flight suit.

Cadets would be restricted to only USAF style and would have to conform to the norms provided sans waver.  After all, if you are going to play in our clothes you are going to have to play by our rules.  Call it discrimination if you will, but a blind man cannot be a fighter pilot and an obese 12 year old cannot be a cadet...at least not by the definition of cadet we recognize today. 

Blazer Comb can exist as an optional uniform for all.


Know, Unified Uniform Theory is a tricky subject.  I guess the best direction from here woudl be to try to see if we can agree what it would mean to have a unified uniform and address what we want to keep as our preception of a CAP uniform, traditionally and functionally, and what we would ever part with.  That is the hard part.

[Psicorp]

now, Unified Uniform Theory is a tricky subject.

I like the name. Now we just need to recruit Dr. Stephen Hawking and maybe we can move this thread string theory into fruition.   Then again...

[SarDragon]

From the poll thread:

Yes, but since there is a Green flight suit as part of the USAF closet, the blue goes with the Corp closet. Those not meeting standards for the USAF uniforms cannot wear the green flight suit.

So if there is a one for one, it has to cover all 3 regardless of which they choose to wear.

Agreed but my stance is that there doesn't need to be one to one.  The corporate uniforms should only satisfy the basic minimum requirement.  The goal being to get more people into the AF-style uniform.  When my squadron publishes UoD for our meetings, we don't even mention the corporate uniform because no one wears it.  Everyone wears the AF-style.  Since having a flight suit is not a requirement to fly, no corporate flight suit is needed.  I only see the need for 2 corporate uniforms.

Emphasis mine.

That might be your goal. Mine is to participate to the maximum extent possible, in whichever uniform(s) I am permitted to wear. Currently those are BBDU, blue flight suit, golf shirt, white and greys, and the blazer. I do not see that changing anytime soon.

I have had my current beard 17 years, and plan on keeping it for at least that much longer. I look better with a beard; I feel better with a beard. My sweetie likes me better with the beard. Why mess with a good thing?

I have had issues in the past with a resistance to facial hair. In today's climate, with more emphasis on retaining contributing members, I think efforts to get rid of the fuzzies will hurt the organization far more than allowing us to participate in corporate uniforms.

[A.Member]

From the poll thread:

Agreed but my stance is that there doesn't need to be one to one.  The corporate uniforms should only satisfy the basic minimum requirement.  The goal being to get more people into the AF-style uniform.  When my squadron publishes UoD for our meetings, we don't even mention the corporate uniform because no one wears it.  Everyone wears the AF-style.  Since having a flight suit is not a requirement to fly, no corporate flight suit is needed.  I only see the need for 2 corporate uniforms.

Emphasis mine.

That might be your goal. Mine is to participate to the maximum extent possible, in whichever uniform(s) I am permitted to wear...

Obviously opinions differ, and that's fine, but I love it when statements are taken to absurd extremes, as if these things must somehow be mutually exclusive.  They're not.  I was only speaking in reference to uniforms.  Geez.