First Aid requirements

[tsrup]

Every member (and I'll concede GES type and up)

I agree - First Aid, whatever CAP decides is appropriate, should be happening before GES is awarded, and I would argue as part of Level I and Curry.

I would argue that just as an increase in encampment participation requirements would increase the number of encampments required by each wing,
requiring First Aid as a part of basic membership would not only increase the general awareness and competence of the membership, it would also
force the training to be better defined and probably brought in-house.

Why should first aid be required for GES? 

GES=/= field ready.  GES is just the precursor for those getting started toward other assignments.  Does the MSA really need to know how to splint an arm? 


Though with the advanced "experience" of many of our members in mission base, maybe having some MSAs around with a CPR card might not be a bad idea 

[tsrup]

What would be the point of CAP starting IVs anyways?
Even if the member was an AEMT, Paramedic, Nurse, etc...

Not being a medic/EMT/Doctor/etc.....one would assume for some medically required condition.

The problem with IV administration in a CAP context is the fact that once we have an IV established, then what?

WE have no medical direction, no Doctor on the other end giving orders (verbal or through protocol) and willing to allow us to practice on his ticket which is essential for licensed personel to have in order to do these things.  In the absence of a medical director a Paramedic or Nurse is just able to give really good first aid (legally). 

In order for CAP to do this, CAP would either need to start staffing Doctors to write our protocol at a national level and accept responsibility and liability for every licensed or certified provider in CAP, or local units need to find Doctors willing to volunteer and provide medical direction at a smaller scale, but would have to be willing to accept the liability that goes along with that.  I'm not saying that the second scenario is impossible, but it sure is unlikely. 


IVs in CAP are a bad idea.  Administering medication in CAP is a bad idea.  Medication includes Normal Saline and even Oxygen.  Even the IV catheters themselves are not to be placed without a Physician's order (EMS gets around this by having a physician establish protocols dictating when administering an IV is appropriate).




I'm not trying to jump on you lordmonar, please understand that, you just brought up a very valid point that many laymen don't realize.

I dont think anyone was advocating just running off and starting IV's like you would take a tylenol!?.... It would in a hypothetical world be one small part of an encompasing medical program of all of the things you mentioned and more......

Why start them at all?

Its a unrealistic pipe dream, individual EMS agencies have a difficult time managing all of the issues associated with the provision of adavanced level medical care;  CAP has difficulty managing the programs that it does now in a safe, consistant and compliant manner on the 2 hours a day/once a week sort of management plan.  In a carte blanche go forth and ALS folks type of system, the potential for oops is pretty high, and higher than I imagine the corporate "loose my home go to jail pay big fines" fearing folks are willing to risk.    If there was a way to make that work I think it would be a fantastic boon in certain situations, but until that happy medium is found I dont believe it will happen, and begrudgingly believe that might be a good thing.

The often referenced FEMA typing guide actually reccomended for type II search team a wilderness first responder level as the mecical component.  I think that would be a good standard to try and meet if you want to have a level II capable team (which is 32 people, in 4 8 person teams.... 4 TL/28 TM, 1 on each team must meet the WFR-medical specialist requirement)

Every member (and I'll concede GES type and up) should have a basic first aid training-thinking SABC type (and honestly there is no reason why that program couldnt be extended to cover CAP by the USAF)

mk

I'll agree with CAP moving up to the scope of practice as a MFR.   

As far as allowing ALS providers to do ALS skills...
..Didn't this thread get rolling because we couldn't even get a handle on tracking a first aid card? 
We should probably manage that first.

[lordmonar]

This sounds like a good proposal to send up the Chain of Command in several Wings simultaneously.

Let's require a Basic First Aid/CPR/AED course for membership. Maybe something along the lines of "Must be completed within 6 months of membership." ... And Wing's could host the training twice annually.

If that was the case, we could remove the 1st aid requirement from the ES SQTRs, unless it was to add a requirement to keep it current.

I would not require for every member.  As.....and Eclipes is going to kill me....not every member is suited or wants to do ES.  So it becomes just another stuipid "got to jump through a useless hoop" exercises.

I do think that anyone choosing to do ES should do a SABC style course to get GES.....and yes wing, groups, and squadrons can host them as needed.
Do the online course.....then maybe once a quarter or more often do the hands on part.  Easy Pleasey.

At the squadron I work with......they got one guy who does the hands on maybe once or twice of month.   

But I don't see the value added by requiring the general membership to have it.

[Eclipse]

Why should first aid be required for GES? 

GES=/= field ready.  GES is just the precursor for those getting started toward other assignments.  Does the MSA really need to know how to splint an arm? 

I agree on GES, as indicated in the regs, it's a license to train.

As to MSA's knowing First Aid, that would get to similar ideas the military has that everyone is a "warrior" at the most basic level.  In our case, the
ability to provide self and buddy care should be one of our paramount skills.  ICPs in real missions tend to be in environments that have hazards
and people get hurt.

I think requiring it for GES, especially if it was in-house, closes the conversation, and gets us where we want to be.

Lordmonor - First Aid isn't an ES-specific skill.  It's useful in the CP and AE as well.  In fact I would say most cadet-related 78's
come through during encampments and similar activities with no ES in sight.

[sarmed1]

...I would not require for every member.  As.....and Eclipes is going to kill me....not every member is suited or wants to do ES.  So it becomes just another stuipid "got to jump through a useless hoop" exercises.

...

Im a little split on this one.  One one hand there is a certain level of futility in maintaining currency on an item that some people will NEVER use.  But perhaps it could be a one time learinng event (online wouldnt be that bad) and only GES rated personnel required to maintain "currency" (ie hands on portion and whatever other re-cert method is determined)

that way everyone in CAP has had at least some sort of training in the event they happen upon an emergency, "on the job' or off.  And those with a higher than likely incident of actually coming upon an emergency are a little bit more competent.

mk

[Eclipse]

That's a reasonable suggestion, although First Aid tends to be like a motorcycle helmet, you really only need it on the days you crash.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I agree with those of you that should be required for those at the mission base, but not needed by most of those joining CAP.

As part or after GES? I don't know... However by the time that you become an MSA require it. Think about it, MRO requires a task on radio safety, Task L-0010, Mission Safety Procedures. Why not add First Aid or better yet, CPR to this qualification?

And about FLM, O-3004 and O-3005 which are tasks related to flight line safety and hazards. Why not add First Aid to this qualification?

Flyer

[SarDragon]

I agree with those of you that should be required for those at the mission base, but not needed by most of those joining CAP.

As part or after GES? I don't know... However by the time that you become an MSA require it. Think about it, MRO requires a task on radio safety, Task L-0010, Mission Safety Procedures. Why not add First Aid or better yet, CPR to this qualification?

And about FLM, O-3004 and O-3005 which are tasks related to flight line safety and hazards. Why not add First Aid to this qualification?

Flyer

Per the FLM SQTR, "Complete Basic First Aid Training or Equivalent" is already there. It's the fourth item under Advanced Training.

[Luis R. Ramos]

MY mistake, apologies! I am not FLM...

Let's try that little bit of magic with MSA and MRO, then... Abracadabra, PUFF! Now it is also there...

{Edited to add] Also add to UDT.

Nope... Suggesting then it be added to two instead of three. Two out of three ain't bad...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Making it a part of GES knocks it out early, maybe to never think of it again.  It also puts the member, theoretically in the proper
mindset of ES being serious.

[lordmonar]

...I would not require for every member.  As.....and Eclipes is going to kill me....not every member is suited or wants to do ES.  So it becomes just another stuipid "got to jump through a useless hoop" exercises.

...

Im a little split on this one.  One one hand there is a certain level of futility in maintaining currency on an item that some people will NEVER use.  But perhaps it could be a one time learinng event (online wouldnt be that bad) and only GES rated personnel required to maintain "currency" (ie hands on portion and whatever other re-cert method is determined)

that way everyone in CAP has had at least some sort of training in the event they happen upon an emergency, "on the job' or off.  And those with a higher than likely incident of actually coming upon an emergency are a little bit more competent.

mk

I see where you are coming from......and to a point I agree.  I just think we front load a lot of crap on new members as it is.......Maybe move it back as a level II requirement or stick it in as part of the specialty tracks.  That way we get more or less the same result but delay it a bit....with out having a "with in 6 month of joining" rules.

As for currency.....I'm one time good sort of guy.   Like we said most of us will never have to use it......ever.  But having been trained once....maybe you will remember the one or two really important things and call 911 and clear the airway.

[Walkman]

I see where you are coming from......and to a point I agree.  I just think we front load a lot of crap on new members as it is....

Not to run too far of a tangent into SM PD, but I'd like to see a bit more asked of newer members. I was honestly finished with L1 within a week of getting my card, and I'm like "This is it?". After taking the OBC, my first thought was "I wish I had done this prior to getting my butterbars". If we're going to be taken seriously by those outside, we need to earn it. I was a bit disillusioned for a while after starting.

In that vein, requiring basic FA or something like that as part of GES sets the tone. We're training seriously, because ES can be serious.

YMMV. I'm the kind of guy that eats this stuff up and goes back for thirds. If my family didn't have the habits of eating regular meals and sleeping indoors, I'd quit my job today and do every single SAR/EMT/survival/etc course I could find.

[Eclipse]

We forget this is the reason most adults join the organization - to "learn and do".

Absent a connection such as a cadet in the program, walk-in adults are generally joining for ES first and foremost, setting the expectation that First Aid is important
probably wouldn't come as any surprise.

It also forces the issue with unit CCs who would just as soon "not be bothered with ES".

[lordmonar]

Yup....and we got dedicated people who are only there to "support their cadet".  Good people who do good work....but are just not interested in all the rank, the PD and all the ES stuff.

Forcing them to do a first aid class for the Level I.......is counter productive.

As for the idea that "you can't be bothered by the ES stuff".  ES is NOT part of the Cadet Program.   I support the idea of using ES to enhance your CP but I accept that people should focus on what is important to their mission focus.

[Walkman]

Forcing them to do a first aid class for the Level I.......is counter productive.

Agreed, that why I like adding it to GES.

[Eclipse]

Forcing them to do a first aid class for the Level I.......is counter productive.

You have to be more specific then that.  Counterproductive to "what"?

It's not counterproductive to mission and purpose.  It might be to retention, but that depends on the hows and the whys.

As for the idea that "you can't be bothered by the ES stuff".  ES is NOT part of the Cadet Program.   I support the idea of using ES to enhance your CP but I accept that people should focus on what is important to their mission focus.

Not >THEIR< mission focus.  THE mission focus.

The mission is not a menu.  Individuals may treat it that way, but the organization should not, and since it has, especially in the last decade or so,
we can chart the decline.  ES and CP are on life support because they are done at the whim of the commanders involved, to the detriment of both (if for no
other reason then they share the member pool and there's no emphasis on recruiting), and AE is basically ignored, except where it crosses into ES or CP.

[RogueLeader]

Not to run too far of a tangent into SM PD, but I'd like to see a bit more asked of newer members. I was honestly finished with L1 within a week of getting my card, and I'm like "This is it?". After taking the OBC, my first thought was "I wish I had done this prior to getting my butterbars". If we're going to be taken seriously by those outside, we need to earn it. I was a bit disillusioned for a while after starting.

The new Level One is significantly better than the old one.  I have already ran one new member (former cadet CMSgt) through it, and I thought it is a good bridge between the Old Level 1 and OBC.  I have a couple prospective applicants that are serious considering joining, so I'll have more to report later.

Not >THEIR< mission focus.  THE mission focus.

The mission is not a menu.  Individuals may treat it that way, but the organization should not, and since it has, especially in the last decade or so,
we can chart the decline.  ES and CP are on life support because they are done at the whim of the commanders involved, to the detriment of both (if for no
other reason then they share the member pool and there's no emphasis on recruiting), and AE is basically ignored, except where it crosses into ES or CP.

That's why it is important for Unit Commanders to be actively engaging people to get involved, and/or recruiting people to fill those aspects.  I don't care how hard you WISH for someone to get involved in CP, if a person is only interested in flying for SAR, there is no way they will enter into the CP area.  So, I recruit CP Personnel.

I'm actually glad that most of my people want to be involved in multiple sections of our Missions.  Still, I have a few that will only fly (I've never actually seen him, or any regular contact (except for when he needs something.))

So, does that make me a bad Commander?

[Storm Chaser]

Not >THEIR< mission focus.  THE mission focus.

The mission is not a menu.  Individuals may treat it that way, but the organization should not, and since it has, especially in the last decade or so, we can chart the decline.  ES and CP are on life support because they are done at the whim of the commanders involved, to the detriment of both (if for no other reason then they share the member pool and there's no emphasis on recruiting), and AE is basically ignored, except where it crosses into ES or CP.

In my (somewhat  limited) experience in three wings, two group HQ, three units and with many, many different commanders, I have to concur with your assessment.

[Storm Chaser]

I don't agree that First Aid should be part of Level 1. I'm not opposed to the idea that it be part of GES, but only is the burden to seek and pay for this training is removed from the members and put on CAP.

GES, as it has been said before, is your license to learn and I wouldn't want anyone prevented from learning and participating in ES training because the unit doesn't offer this course and they can't afford to do it outside of CAP. My preference would be to make it a requirement for every ES specialty, not just a few like GTM and FLM.

I also support the requirement that it be renewed every two years for ES purposes, as that is the expiration date given by most agencies/organizations who offer this training.

[lordmonar]

Forcing them to do a first aid class for the Level I.......is counter productive.

You have to be more specific then that.  Counterproductive to "what"?

It's not counterproductive to mission and purpose.  It might be to retention, but that depends on the hows and the whys.

Counter productive to retention IS counter productive to mission and purpose.

As for the idea that "you can't be bothered by the ES stuff".  ES is NOT part of the Cadet Program.   I support the idea of using ES to enhance your CP but I accept that people should focus on what is important to their mission focus.

Not >THEIR< mission focus.  THE mission focus.

The mission is not a menu.  Individuals may treat it that way, but the organization should not, and since it has, especially in the last decade or so,
we can chart the decline.  ES and CP are on life support because they are done at the whim of the commanders involved, to the detriment of both (if for no
other reason then they share the member pool and there's no emphasis on recruiting), and AE is basically ignored, except where it crosses into ES or CP.

Ehhhhmmmmm........sorry yes it is.  CADET squadrons only do CADET programs.   Senior squadrons only do ES.....Composite squadrons do both.  And the designation of said squadrons is mostly a matter of choice.    I redesginated the Nellis Cadet Squadron to the Nellis Composite Squadron after I took command....because I decided we need to do ES.

When National, Region, and/or Wing start pushing down real taskings to the squadrons then I will buy the missions are not a menu to be picked at will.