USAF Style Versus CAP Distinctive

Started by Chaplaindon, March 22, 2007, 05:27:48 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Chaplaindon

After pondering the addition of "U.S." to the BDU/BBDU namestrip, I would like to proffer a possible REAL rationale behind the move.

I suspect the real motive has to do with the new corporate service dress coat. Recently direction came down to replace the "U.S." cutouts with "CAP" ones instead.

By making us the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" (if only in the BDU/BBDU) it may help leverage the reinstatement of the "U.S." cutouts.

Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

Psicorp

Quote from: Chaplaindon on March 22, 2007, 05:27:48 PM
After pondering the addition of "U.S." to the BDU/BBDU namestrip, I would like to proffer a possible REAL rationale behind the move.

I suspect the real motive has to do with the new corporate service dress coat. Recently direction came down to replace the "U.S." cutouts with "CAP" ones instead.

By making us the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" (if only in the BDU/BBDU) it may help leverage the reinstatement of the "U.S." cutouts.

Hmm...not sure I buy that.  From what I remember, the change from the U.S. cutouts to CAP cutouts on the TPU coat was someone (or lots of someones) talking about it shortly after the TPU was rolled out.  Personally, I think the PTU coat should have CAP cutouts...it's a corporate coat not a military coat and should have Corporate badges/devices only.

I'm more willing to believe that the change to "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" was to head off a push to change to "U.S.A.F Aux." or something similar.   There are essentially two mindsets within CAP, those who want to be more AF Auxy and those who want to have more of an independent corporate identity.    It's really hard to be both at the same time.

Ponder a moment, if you would, on what CAP would look like if we went totally in the "independent corporate identity" direction.   No need for a military rank structure, we could have President and CEO, Vice President,  Regional Directors, State Directors, Group Managers, Unit Leaders/Supervisors, and still have the Board.  There wouldn't be a need for uniforms, suit and tie or slacks and a golf shirt for everyone.   I'm enough of a corporate drone at my regular paying job...don't want to be one as a volunteer too.   
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

LtCol White

Quote from: Psicorp on March 22, 2007, 05:50:47 PM
Quote from: Chaplaindon on March 22, 2007, 05:27:48 PM
After pondering the addition of "U.S." to the BDU/BBDU namestrip, I would like to proffer a possible REAL rationale behind the move.

I suspect the real motive has to do with the new corporate service dress coat. Recently direction came down to replace the "U.S." cutouts with "CAP" ones instead.

By making us the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" (if only in the BDU/BBDU) it may help leverage the reinstatement of the "U.S." cutouts.

Hmm...not sure I buy that.  From what I remember, the change from the U.S. cutouts to CAP cutouts on the TPU coat was someone (or lots of someones) talking about it shortly after the TPU was rolled out.  Personally, I think the PTU coat should have CAP cutouts...it's a corporate coat not a military coat and should have Corporate badges/devices only.

I'm more willing to believe that the change to "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" was to head off a push to change to "U.S.A.F Aux." or something similar.   There are essentially two mindsets within CAP, those who want to be more AF Auxy and those who want to have more of an independent corporate identity.    It's really hard to be both at the same time.

Ponder a moment, if you would, on what CAP would look like if we went totally in the "independent corporate identity" direction.   No need for a military rank structure, we could have President and CEO, Vice President,  Regional Directors, State Directors, Group Managers, Unit Leaders/Supervisors, and still have the Board.  There wouldn't be a need for uniforms, suit and tie or slacks and a golf shirt for everyone.   I'm enough of a corporate drone at my regular paying job...don't want to be one as a volunteer too.   

As long as there is metal rank on the TPU, I can assure you that there wont be US on the collar. If the uniform is too confusing to USAF personnel, then USAF will step in and protest.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

ColonelJack

There's absolutely nothing wrong with CAP cutouts on the corporate service coat.  We wore them for years on the AF coat, remember?  Nobody made a stink about wanting US cutouts there, so we shouldn't expect such on our very own uniforms.  At least, that's how I see it.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

LtCol White

I think they are very appropriate on the TPU. I never minded wearing them on the USAF coat
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

DNall

I think  I understood that to be a geneva convention required change, or at least that's what the AF said when some other general got pissed & made a stink about it. Or at least that's what I've been told. I can for absolutely sure say that there is no chance the US cutouts come back on that coat.

However, I do think it comes from the same logic that created that coat & cut the wing patches.... that is to eleminate sectarian thinking & unify CAP under one chain of command at the national level. I think that's ultimately about power grabbing, I mean once you're the Nat CC what else can you grab but by consolidation. But, I still think it's a good idea to squash the little punk empires below & come together as one standardized unified team. I mean how are you going to accomplish that with the AF or create your own corporate identity until you get your own house in order.

lordmonar

Quote from: DNall on March 22, 2007, 06:38:24 PM
I think  I understood that to be a geneva convention required change, or at least that's what the AF said when some other general got pissed & made a stink about it. Or at least that's what I've been told. I can for absolutely sure say that there is no chance the US cutouts come back on that coat.

However, I do think it comes from the same logic that created that coat & cut the wing patches.... that is to eleminate sectarian thinking & unify CAP under one chain of command at the national level. I think that's ultimately about power grabbing, I mean once you're the Nat CC what else can you grab but by consolidation. But, I still think it's a good idea to squash the little punk empires below & come together as one standardized unified team. I mean how are you going to accomplish that with the AF or create your own corporate identity until you get your own house in order.

You absolutly right!  So let's all switch to the Corporate uniform and build a unified team!
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

LtCol White

Quote from: lordmonar on March 22, 2007, 07:03:27 PM
Quote from: DNall on March 22, 2007, 06:38:24 PM
I think  I understood that to be a geneva convention required change, or at least that's what the AF said when some other general got pissed & made a stink about it. Or at least that's what I've been told. I can for absolutely sure say that there is no chance the US cutouts come back on that coat.

However, I do think it comes from the same logic that created that coat & cut the wing patches.... that is to eleminate sectarian thinking & unify CAP under one chain of command at the national level. I think that's ultimately about power grabbing, I mean once you're the Nat CC what else can you grab but by consolidation. But, I still think it's a good idea to squash the little punk empires below & come together as one standardized unified team. I mean how are you going to accomplish that with the AF or create your own corporate identity until you get your own house in order.

You absolutly right!  So let's all switch to the Corporate uniform and build a unified team!


NO !!!! You just dont seem to ever get the point of why it is important to keep the USAF uniform. If you don't want to wear it fine. Don't. To move everyone to it only moves us farther from USAF when we should be moving closer.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

lordmonar

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 07:09:11 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 22, 2007, 07:03:27 PM
Quote from: DNall on March 22, 2007, 06:38:24 PM
I think  I understood that to be a geneva convention required change, or at least that's what the AF said when some other general got pissed & made a stink about it. Or at least that's what I've been told. I can for absolutely sure say that there is no chance the US cutouts come back on that coat.

However, I do think it comes from the same logic that created that coat & cut the wing patches.... that is to eleminate sectarian thinking & unify CAP under one chain of command at the national level. I think that's ultimately about power grabbing, I mean once you're the Nat CC what else can you grab but by consolidation. But, I still think it's a good idea to squash the little punk empires below & come together as one standardized unified team. I mean how are you going to accomplish that with the AF or create your own corporate identity until you get your own house in order.

You absolutly right!  So let's all switch to the Corporate uniform and build a unified team!


NO !!!! You just dont seem to ever get the point of why it is important to keep the USAF uniform. If you don't want to wear it fine. Don't. To move everyone to it only moves us farther from USAF when we should be moving closer.

And to not move us all to the same uniform is to keep us a non-professional mish-mash organisations in th eyes of everyone else!
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DrJbdm

So, lets switch everyone to AF style uniforms and deny membership to all those who can't or won't meet the weight or grooming standards when making application to CAP.

  I absolutely believe that if we got rid of the USAF uniforms, we would take a huge symbolic leap away from the USAF. Lets be very careful with how we create perception, because in the minds of most people, perception is reality. If we did a whole move away from AF uniforms in favor of Corporate uniforms then the perception of most people would be that we did not want to be associated with the USAF. Thats a very dangerous perception!

  The issue we have is with the amount of corporate uniforms, not AF uniforms. There's an easy fix. Get rid of the white/greys, blazers, and the polo shirts. Those uniforms are not military in nature and clash with the AF style uniforms. if we will not mandate weight and grooming standards for membership, then we need to create symmetry within our uniforms.

  The TPU goes well when placed next to blues, BBDU's goes ok, when placed next to BDU's. although I think AF could lighten up on the weight standard for BDU's. I know my unit has a VERY over weight female Officer and she wears BDU's although she is way outside the limit. It really doesn't look that bad. So get rid of the BBDU's and wear only BDU's...after all AF is phasing out of those now. In the future we would have those members who meet the weight standard wear the new ABU and those who can't meet the weight standard should wear the BDU's. For the long hairs out there, sorry guys, visit a barber.

  All across this nation Police Departments and Fire Departments everywhere require their volunteer or auxiliary officers & members to maintain a grooming standard, I think CAP can do the same thing.


lordmonar

Well there you are!

We either kick out the long hair, over weight members.....and the take over the jobs that they are currently doing, or we pressure the USAF to back off on these standards.

It is as simple as that.

I highly disagree with the sentiment that a switch to 100% corporate uniforms would hurt our relationship with the USAF or our credibility with outside agencies.

It would simplifiy uniform matters, increase our uniformity and improve our professional image.

The one alternitive I have not suggested.......We switch to USAF uniforms and ignore the USAF's protests about our out of regs personnel.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

LtCol White

Quote from: lordmonar on March 22, 2007, 08:20:11 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 07:09:11 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 22, 2007, 07:03:27 PM
Quote from: DNall on March 22, 2007, 06:38:24 PM
I think  I understood that to be a geneva convention required change, or at least that's what the AF said when some other general got pissed & made a stink about it. Or at least that's what I've been told. I can for absolutely sure say that there is no chance the US cutouts come back on that coat.

However, I do think it comes from the same logic that created that coat & cut the wing patches.... that is to eleminate sectarian thinking & unify CAP under one chain of command at the national level. I think that's ultimately about power grabbing, I mean once you're the Nat CC what else can you grab but by consolidation. But, I still think it's a good idea to squash the little punk empires below & come together as one standardized unified team. I mean how are you going to accomplish that with the AF or create your own corporate identity until you get your own house in order.

You absolutly right!  So let's all switch to the Corporate uniform and build a unified team!


NO !!!! You just dont seem to ever get the point of why it is important to keep the USAF uniform. If you don't want to wear it fine. Don't. To move everyone to it only moves us farther from USAF when we should be moving closer.

And to not move us all to the same uniform is to keep us a non-professional mish-mash organisations in th eyes of everyone else!

NO, you're missing the point. We have always had ONE alternative uniform. That was for anyone who did not meet standards to wear the USAF one. And that is how is SHOULD be again with emphasis on wearing of the USAF one and NOT the corporate one.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

LtCol White

Quote from: lordmonar on March 22, 2007, 09:42:17 PM
Well there you are!

We either kick out the long hair, over weight members.....and the take over the jobs that they are currently doing, or we pressure the USAF to back off on these standards.

It is as simple as that.

I highly disagree with the sentiment that a switch to 100% corporate uniforms would hurt our relationship with the USAF or our credibility with outside agencies.

It would simplifiy uniform matters, increase our uniformity and improve our professional image.

The one alternitive I have not suggested.......We switch to USAF uniforms and ignore the USAF's protests about our out of regs personnel.
]

With all due respect, you apparently have not been around CAP very long to understand why this is important.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

lordmonar

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 22, 2007, 09:42:17 PM
Well there you are!

We either kick out the long hair, over weight members.....and the take over the jobs that they are currently doing, or we pressure the USAF to back off on these standards.

It is as simple as that.

I highly disagree with the sentiment that a switch to 100% corporate uniforms would hurt our relationship with the USAF or our credibility with outside agencies.

It would simplifiy uniform matters, increase our uniformity and improve our professional image.

The one alternitive I have not suggested.......We switch to USAF uniforms and ignore the USAF's protests about our out of regs personnel.
]

With all due respect, you apparently have not been around CAP very long to understand why this is important.


I've been around to know that the USAF has been slowly pushing us away on the uniform issue for a long time now sir.  I have been with the USAF long enough to know that 90% of the rank and file of the USAF do not know about us.  And the few that do are split between those who think we are posers because we wear USAF uniforms.

Sir,  I know we have a problem with USAF relations.....But we also have a problem with local agency relations.  It makes no difference what the USAF thinks of us...if the local/state DR/SAR coordinators think we are unprofessional.

On the subject of uniformity...we are un-professional.  We have 8-9 different authorised uniform combinations that make no sense to outsiders what they mean.

Now I agree....that my preference would be all USAF uniforms....for all the reasons you mentioned.  But that would mean one of the following must happen:

1. We force out all those who don't meet USAF standards (plus 10%).
2. We get the USAF to back off on their standards.
3. We ignore the standards.

Number 3....is right out.....that would really be a road block to CAP/USAF relations.
Number 2....I can't talk for the Air Force but I don't really understand why they have such a hang up on this.
Number 1....This is the only really viable option....but could CAP still function if we did this?  I know of at least 3 three squadrons that would take a 50% drop in leadership not to mention the loss of leadership at regional and national levels.

So....again with the focus of fixing our image with our primary customer (local ES cooridinators).....we can all move to corporates, eliminate the polo shirt and the gray/white combos.  That means we are down to only three possible uniform combinations.  TPUs, Flight Suits (blue) and BBDUs.  Desk Weenies, flies and feild types.

Would the USAF think this was an attempt to get away from them?  Not if you tell them why.  Not if you still talk to them and listen to them about issues they are concerned about.  At the street level we don't see the USAF.  We see mission numbers and we see IC's that are wearing State Police Uniforms or Fire Department uniforms.

The USAF does not IMHO really care what we look like so long as we don't bring discredit on them (hence why they don't like big fat long haired bearded SMs wearing the USAF uniform).  They obviously don't have too much problem with BBDU and Blue Flight Suits....because they have never said anything about those.  They had a couple of misgivings about the TPU....but we WORKED with them and corrected it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

LTC_Gadget

Quote from: DNall on March 22, 2007, 06:38:24 PM
I mean once you're the Nat CC what else can you grab but by consolidation. 

Remember though, that not all National Commanders have had delusions of grandeur, godhood, "what's in it for me," or "Hail, me" attitudes.  There have been quite a few, I've met some, and at least one that I know personally who really *did* put the good of the mission and the organization first, and worked with the AF for the good of both.  Unfortunately, it may be a rarer trait than it needs to be at that level. Yep, JMO..

V/R,
John Boyd, LtCol, CAP
Mitchell and Earhart unnumbered, yada, yada
The older I get, the more I learn.  The more I learn, the more I find left yet to learn.

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: lordmonar on March 22, 2007, 10:48:41 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 22, 2007, 09:42:17 PM
Well there you are!

We either kick out the long hair, over weight members.....and the take over the jobs that they are currently doing, or we pressure the USAF to back off on these standards.

It is as simple as that.

I highly disagree with the sentiment that a switch to 100% corporate uniforms would hurt our relationship with the USAF or our credibility with outside agencies.

It would simplifiy uniform matters, increase our uniformity and improve our professional image.

The one alternitive I have not suggested.......We switch to USAF uniforms and ignore the USAF's protests about our out of regs personnel.
]

With all due respect, you apparently have not been around CAP very long to understand why this is important.


I've been around to know that the USAF has been slowly pushing us away on the uniform issue for a long time now sir.  I have been with the USAF long enough to know that 90% of the rank and file of the USAF do not know about us.  And the few that do are split between those who think we are posers because we wear USAF uniforms.

Sir,  I know we have a problem with USAF relations.....But we also have a problem with local agency relations.  It makes no difference what the USAF thinks of us...if the local/state DR/SAR coordinators think we are unprofessional.

On the subject of uniformity...we are un-professional.  We have 8-9 different authorised uniform combinations that make no sense to outsiders what they mean.

Now I agree....that my preference would be all USAF uniforms....for all the reasons you mentioned.  But that would mean one of the following must happen:

1. We force out all those who don't meet USAF standards (plus 10%).
2. We get the USAF to back off on their standards.
3. We ignore the standards.

Number 3....is right out.....that would really be a road block to CAP/USAF relations.
Number 2....I can't talk for the Air Force but I don't really understand why they have such a hang up on this.
Number 1....This is the only really viable option....but could CAP still function if we did this?  I know of at least 3 three squadrons that would take a 50% drop in leadership not to mention the loss of leadership at regional and national levels.

So....again with the focus of fixing our image with our primary customer (local ES cooridinators).....we can all move to corporates, eliminate the polo shirt and the gray/white combos.  That means we are down to only three possible uniform combinations.  TPUs, Flight Suits (blue) and BBDUs.  Desk Weenies, flies and feild types.

Would the USAF think this was an attempt to get away from them?  Not if you tell them why.  Not if you still talk to them and listen to them about issues they are concerned about.  At the street level we don't see the USAF.  We see mission numbers and we see IC's that are wearing State Police Uniforms or Fire Department uniforms.

The USAF does not IMHO really care what we look like so long as we don't bring discredit on them (hence why they don't like big fat long haired bearded SMs wearing the USAF uniform).  They obviously don't have too much problem with BBDU and Blue Flight Suits....because they have never said anything about those.  They had a couple of misgivings about the TPU....but we WORKED with them and corrected it.

Lord M:

I think option 2 has a shot.

The present standards represent the basic training entry standards, and are not adjusted for body fat.

Using the approved USAF body fay computation rules, which are NOT hard to administer, and calculating in fudge factor of approximately 10 percent, I think a LOT of us seasoned fellows would stack up closer to USAF standards than by using the screening weight only.
Another former CAP officer

LTC_Gadget

Quote from: DrJbdm on March 22, 2007, 09:11:32 PM
So, lets switch everyone to AF style uniforms and deny membership to all those who can't or won't meet the weight [..] standards when making application to CAP.

The average age of an AF officer is around thirty.  The average age of a CAP officer is around 50. Try imposing the same weight and BMI standards on those two diverse groups and see how much sense that makes.  There were discussions long ago which considered that key difference and factored in the weight allowance difference.  If the AF didn't have its own problems, then why is is that they offer a 50 short service coat.  No way that physique meets standards either. 

The basic objectives of being in the military is that no matter what your job, you can pick up a weapon, run into combat, put yourself in harm's way, kill people and live to tell about it.  We're hardly on the same page.  Our pilots still have to pass flight physicals, and some of them resemble small-town donut-eating, speed-trap minding Buford T. Justices. 

I was born with one leg shorter than the other, and am missing one bone below the knee in one leg.  It didn't stop me from progressing in the cadet program, it didn't stop me from being a Ground Team Leader both as a cadet and as a senior member years ago.  But to the military, I was damaged goods because I don't have enough parts, and couldn't carry 100 pound pack at double- time.  There were many other jobs that probably never would have been called into combat that I could have performed, but I never got the chance.  The only thing slowing me down now is a bum knee which is arthritic as a leftover from twenty-one orthopedic surgeries in my childhood and teens.  But I *did my job.*  I never asked for allowances to be made.  I never put myself in a position for others to have to take care of me instead of the mission.  I insisted on the same from those around me.  So, now you're going to call me damaged goods as well??  Ever heard of the law of unintended consequences??  Thinkaboutit..

V/R,
John Boyd, LtCol, CAP
Mitchell and Earhart unnumbered, yada, yada
The older I get, the more I learn.  The more I learn, the more I find left yet to learn.

LtCol White

Quote from: lordmonar on March 22, 2007, 10:48:41 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 22, 2007, 09:42:17 PM
Well there you are!

We either kick out the long hair, over weight members.....and the take over the jobs that they are currently doing, or we pressure the USAF to back off on these standards.

It is as simple as that.

I highly disagree with the sentiment that a switch to 100% corporate uniforms would hurt our relationship with the USAF or our credibility with outside agencies.

It would simplifiy uniform matters, increase our uniformity and improve our professional image.

The one alternitive I have not suggested.......We switch to USAF uniforms and ignore the USAF's protests about our out of regs personnel.
]

With all due respect, you apparently have not been around CAP very long to understand why this is important.


I've been around to know that the USAF has been slowly pushing us away on the uniform issue for a long time now sir.  I have been with the USAF long enough to know that 90% of the rank and file of the USAF do not know about us.  And the few that do are split between those who think we are posers because we wear USAF uniforms.

Sir,  I know we have a problem with USAF relations.....But we also have a problem with local agency relations.  It makes no difference what the USAF thinks of us...if the local/state DR/SAR coordinators think we are unprofessional.

On the subject of uniformity...we are un-professional.  We have 8-9 different authorised uniform combinations that make no sense to outsiders what they mean.

Now I agree....that my preference would be all USAF uniforms....for all the reasons you mentioned.  But that would mean one of the following must happen:

1. We force out all those who don't meet USAF standards (plus 10%).
2. We get the USAF to back off on their standards.
3. We ignore the standards.

Number 3....is right out.....that would really be a road block to CAP/USAF relations.
Number 2....I can't talk for the Air Force but I don't really understand why they have such a hang up on this.
Number 1....This is the only really viable option....but could CAP still function if we did this?  I know of at least 3 three squadrons that would take a 50% drop in leadership not to mention the loss of leadership at regional and national levels.

So....again with the focus of fixing our image with our primary customer (local ES cooridinators).....we can all move to corporates, eliminate the polo shirt and the gray/white combos.  That means we are down to only three possible uniform combinations.  TPUs, Flight Suits (blue) and BBDUs.  Desk Weenies, flies and feild types.

Would the USAF think this was an attempt to get away from them?  Not if you tell them why.  Not if you still talk to them and listen to them about issues they are concerned about.  At the street level we don't see the USAF.  We see mission numbers and we see IC's that are wearing State Police Uniforms or Fire Department uniforms.

The USAF does not IMHO really care what we look like so long as we don't bring discredit on them (hence why they don't like big fat long haired bearded SMs wearing the USAF uniform).  They obviously don't have too much problem with BBDU and Blue Flight Suits....because they have never said anything about those.  They had a couple of misgivings about the TPU....but we WORKED with them and corrected it.

That there are FAR too many uniforms I heartily agree with you. Clearly I prefer the USAF uniform. But I also do not think we should preclude those who do no meet standards from participating. This is the reason we should have the USAF block of uniforms for all who meet WHATEVER the standards are for that and the Corporate block equivalents for all those who do not meet the standards.  It should be a one for one match. Blues/TPU, BDU/BBDU, Flight suit/Blue Filght suit. There are enough similarities in these that it is clear that the organization is the same while satisfying USAF in the wearing of the USAF uniforms.

WITHOUT USAF THERE IS NO CAP. You can't tell USAF to "stuff it" and think that CAP will survive. It will be killed faster than an isurgent in Iraq.

The bad blood is not a USAF problem with CAP but is the result of the actions of certain individuals IN CAP over the years.

IF we professionalize the appearance as well as the actions and USAF see us enforcing regulations instead of finding ways around them, the relationship will repair itself. For this to happen, CAP has to be the one to take the first steps.

By leaving the USAF uniforms behind in favor of the corporate ones gives the impression that 1. we dont want to look like USAF anymore and 2. we cannot control our membership to the point of obeying USAF policy for that uniform.

What USAF really wants is compliance and performance. NOT problems.

Make NO mistake that USAF VERY much cares how we look in the USAF uniform. CAP F'd it up and CAP has to fix it.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

MIKE

Mike Johnston

Al Sayre

Quote from: Chaplaindon on March 22, 2007, 05:27:48 PM
After pondering the addition of "U.S." to the BDU/BBDU namestrip, I would like to proffer a possible REAL rationale behind the move.

I suspect the real motive has to do with the new corporate service dress coat. Recently direction came down to replace the "U.S." cutouts with "CAP" ones instead.

By making us the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" (if only in the BDU/BBDU) it may help leverage the reinstatement of the "U.S." cutouts.



Another possibility:  Someone at Vanguard screwed up and ordered 50,000 tapes that say U.S. Civil Air Patrol, and they were stuck with them so they went to the NB and said "Hey look at the cool idea we had..."
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

lordmonar

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 22, 2007, 11:10:53 PMLord M:

I think option 2 has a shot.

The present standards represent the basic training entry standards, and are not adjusted for body fat.

Using the approved USAF body fay computation rules, which are NOT hard to administer, and calculating in fudge factor of approximately 10 percent, I think a LOT of us seasoned fellows would stack up closer to USAF standards than by using the screening weight only.

The question is...what about those great CAP officers that are WAY out of USAF standards?
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PMThat there are FAR too many uniforms I heartily agree with you. Clearly I prefer the USAF uniform. But I also do not think we should preclude those who do no meet standards from participating. This is the reason we should have the USAF block of uniforms for all who meet WHATEVER the standards are for that and the Corporate block equivalents for all those who do not meet the standards.  It should be a one for one match. Blues/TPU, BDU/BBDU, Flight suit/Blue Filght suit. There are enough similarities in these that it is clear that the organization is the same while satisfying USAF in the wearing of the USAF uniforms.

So status quo.  Live with the problem that we look like a bunch of fools (this is an exaggeration) to our primary customers.

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PMWITHOUT USAF THERE IS NO CAP. You can't tell USAF to "stuff it" and think that CAP will survive. It will be killed faster than an isurgent in Iraq.

Highly disagree with with our here...but this is not the right thread for that.

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PM
The bad blood is not a USAF problem with CAP but is the result of the actions of certain individuals IN CAP over the years.

Agree with you here.

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PM
IF we professionalize the appearance as well as the actions and USAF see us enforcing regulations instead of finding ways around them, the relationship will repair itself. For this to happen, CAP has to be the one to take the first steps.

Agree...but you are attempting to solve a different problem than I am.

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PM
By leaving the USAF uniforms behind in favor of the corporate ones gives the impression that 1. we dont want to look like USAF anymore and 2. we cannot control our membership to the point of obeying USAF policy for that uniform.

Not if you approach the USAF in the right way.  If you go to them and say....we have the problem of no uniformity when we present ourselves to our customers.   We would like you to drop the weight and grooming standard for wear of the USAF uniform, because we can't afford kicking out all the non standard personnel.  If you can't do that we are going to drop the USAF style uniforms as an option for our senior members.  It is the only way to satisfy the requirements of presenting a professional uniform face to our customers and not bring discredit to the USAF uniform.

We already cannot control our membership to the point of obeying USAF or CAP policy on any uniform. CAWG and their first sergeant's whistle, PA wing all their orange T-shirts.  Florida and their combat chaplains.  My very own squadron has a lot of bad uniforms or complete lack of uniforms.  So as a point of alienating the USAF...it does not matter what uniform we wear.

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PM
What USAF really wants is compliance and performance. NOT problems.

Make NO mistake that USAF VERY much cares how we look in the USAF uniform. CAP F'd it up and CAP has to fix it.

Absolutly.....so to remove the problem of non-compliance in USAF uniform wear...we stop wearing it and concentrate on compliance to meeting USAF mission requirements.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

ZigZag911

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 07:09:11 PM

NO !!!! You just dont seem to ever get the point of why it is important to keep the USAF uniform. If you don't want to wear it fine. Don't. To move everyone to it only moves us farther from USAF when we should be moving closer.

I am of the school of thought that wants CAP to be the USAF Auxiliary all the time again.

I wonder if all our seniors wearing a corporate uniform properly (not necessarily TPU) might not be more welcomed by USAF than the present situation, in which some are wearing USAF uniform who do not meet grooming standards, and others are wearing the TPU (which, in my view, closely resembles USAF service uniform), again, while not meeting grooming standards.

LtCol White

Quote from: lordmonar on March 23, 2007, 12:37:54 AM
Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PMThat there are FAR too many uniforms I heartily agree with you. Clearly I prefer the USAF uniform. But I also do not think we should preclude those who do no meet standards from participating. This is the reason we should have the USAF block of uniforms for all who meet WHATEVER the standards are for that and the Corporate block equivalents for all those who do not meet the standards.  It should be a one for one match. Blues/TPU, BDU/BBDU, Flight suit/Blue Filght suit. There are enough similarities in these that it is clear that the organization is the same while satisfying USAF in the wearing of the USAF uniforms.

So status quo.  Live with the problem that we look like a bunch of fools (this is an exaggeration) to our primary customers.

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PMWITHOUT USAF THERE IS NO CAP. You can't tell USAF to "stuff it" and think that CAP will survive. It will be killed faster than an isurgent in Iraq.

Highly disagree with with our here...but this is not the right thread for that.

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PM
The bad blood is not a USAF problem with CAP but is the result of the actions of certain individuals IN CAP over the years.

Agree with you here.

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PM
IF we professionalize the appearance as well as the actions and USAF see us enforcing regulations instead of finding ways around them, the relationship will repair itself. For this to happen, CAP has to be the one to take the first steps.

Agree...but you are attempting to solve a different problem than I am.

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PM
By leaving the USAF uniforms behind in favor of the corporate ones gives the impression that 1. we dont want to look like USAF anymore and 2. we cannot control our membership to the point of obeying USAF policy for that uniform.

Not if you approach the USAF in the right way.  If you go to them and say....we have the problem of no uniformity when we present ourselves to our customers.   We would like you to drop the weight and grooming standard for wear of the USAF uniform, because we can't afford kicking out all the non standard personnel.  If you can't do that we are going to drop the USAF style uniforms as an option for our senior members.  It is the only way to satisfy the requirements of presenting a professional uniform face to our customers and not bring discredit to the USAF uniform.

We already cannot control our membership to the point of obeying USAF or CAP policy on any uniform. CAWG and their first sergeant's whistle, PA wing all their orange T-shirts.  Florida and their combat chaplains.  My very own squadron has a lot of bad uniforms or complete lack of uniforms.  So as a point of alienating the USAF...it does not matter what uniform we wear.

Quote from: LtCol White on March 22, 2007, 11:28:11 PM
What USAF really wants is compliance and performance. NOT problems.

Make NO mistake that USAF VERY much cares how we look in the USAF uniform. CAP F'd it up and CAP has to fix it.

Absolutly.....so to remove the problem of non-compliance in USAF uniform wear...we stop wearing it and concentrate on compliance to meeting USAF mission requirements.

You really just dont get it. That or you don't read thoroughly what I wrote.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

ddelaney103

I think we need to concentrate more on making CAP look better and less on trying to look like the AF's little brother.

I am in the ANG.  I wear an AF uniform which, except for a unit patch, looks like every other AF type there.  That's because I train to the same standard of the AD, go on the same missions and face the same hardships and hazards.

I am also an AF civilian, and an Army civilian before that.  Even when I wore a uniform downrange I didn't try to be a military type.  I was an important part of the team but I didn't kid myself - I wasn't the Soldier/Airman.

CAP would be better off being what it is - civilians from all walks of like being of assistance to our community.  All of this obsessing about "being like the AF:" uniforms, weight, PME, UCMJ - only hampers our mission effectiveness while not making us anything more than posers.

If we come to the table saying, "no, we don't look like you: we have old fat guys with beards that are never going to be Airmen.  However, we can do X, Y, and Z missions professionally, effectively, and on the cheap," we'll be better off than clinging to the AF uniform and trying to get credit by how STRAC we are.

If the AF cared about AF over Corp suits, they'd have mentioned it in the Statement of Work.  They want to know what we bring to the table, not how AF we look while we do it.

lordmonar

Quote from: LtCol White on March 23, 2007, 03:50:17 AMYou really just dont get it. That or you don't read thoroughly what I wrote.

I get it 100%  You want us to be USAF light.  You want to wear the USAF uniform because that makes you feel more special than someone who wears a blue CAP uniform.  You look down on those who wear CAP blue because they think they are holding us back from getting the recognition we deserve and the missions we should be doing.

And yet.  It's not the USAF who is not calling us.  It's the Oregon State Police, and the local sheriff who are not making the call.  They are the ones we need to be impressing.  And a room full of guys in 8 different uniforms does not help our image to the casual observer.

The USAF has no problems with us wearing corporate uniforms.  We have been in them for over 20 years now.  They do have a problem with us wear USAF uniforms they have been trying to force us out for the last 15 years or so.

Let's make them happy and lets improve our uniformity by going CAP Blue all the way.

Once we have a true unified uniform...we can continue to work on our compliance issues and then we continue to work on our mission qualifications.  Then maybe we will be in better light with the USAF.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DNall

Quote from: LTC_Gadget on March 22, 2007, 11:02:11 PM
Quote from: DNall on March 22, 2007, 06:38:24 PM
I mean once you're the Nat CC what else can you grab but by consolidation. 
Remember though, that not all National Commanders have had delusions of grandeur, godhood, "what's in it for me," or "Hail, me" attitudes.  There have been quite a few, I've met some, and at least one that I know personally who really *did* put the good of the mission and the organization first, and worked with the AF for the good of both.  Unfortunately, it may be a rarer trait than it needs to be at that level. Yep, JMO..
Granted. Tact being the better part of professionalism in this case.

However, I do think the modern system imposes a dramatic dis-incentive to retention or progression by the best people. So many factors of the modern paradigm are in opposition to quality standards & allow something other than the cream to rise to the top, which then creates a roadblock that's been in force for a long time.


Far as the AF versus non-AF uniforms, let me say this...
Patrick, I get where you are coming from. I understand 15 uniform combinations looks stupid & we've obviously taken it to an extreme.

However, if you consolidate everything in CAP so we look alike & find yourself with no further association with the AF (even if we're just talking symbolism in uniforms) then what really was the point. Screw the arrangement, that's like having a hissy fit to paint all the deck chairs the same color as the Titanic sinks.

The team we are trying to consolidate as part of is the AF, not Joe Blow that volunteers next week & writes us a check with the requirement he be alive & not yet a convicted felon.

I would tell you that we should all be in the AF-style uniforms & there should be no such thing as corporate-style alternatives or any mention of a corporation beyond a legal technicality to accept tax-deductible donations. There's a few options I can go with on that:
1) Get AF to relax the standards somewhat, &
a) that becomes the min standard for membership, OR
b) alternative uniforms are only allowed for members that cannot meet AF standards

2) Accept the AF standards & make that a standard of membership, OR

3) Accept that we can't lose a ton of people (pun intended) overnight, so require wear of AF-style by those that can while slowly tightening membership standards with a wide open declared progression.

That's all pretty extreme stuff, but again, the ultimate aim is to be part of the uniformed AF team (symbolically & otherwise) and all that comes with it, not to worry about the feeling of individuals. 14 year old cadets think about immediate gratification like that, we're supposed to be above that, we're supposed to look at the good of the service OVER the good of ourselves & our friends or anyone else, and we're supposed to take the long-view, not worry about next week or next year. The fact of our recruiting & retention numbers is our total membership replaces itself every few years & it's a relatively small number that are active at any given point or that stay on for any extended period. I flat out no mercy don't care if we lose members to make positive change. There'll be 3 more there to take their spot by the end of the year. Sure that's harsh, but raising standards on anything at all is going to mean leaving a significant number of people behind. You can worry about their feelings when you have your focus on the higher purpose.


Oh and by the way, the AF has NEVER EVER suggested much less approved any corporate uniform. They stated ht/wt standards & expected CAP to comply. CAP found an unintended loop-hole & went their own way. You recall seeing that logic in use more recently with both uniforms & dodging technicalities to be able to do more w/o the AF's permission. That's not very team oriented thinking. They have NOT pushed us away on any uniform issue. Every one of those things has been CAP's doing and/or decision. The AF has a standards expectation to be part of their team, and that's it, nothing more or less. I'd encourage you to check your history before you continue blaming AF for these problems.

SarDragon

I would like to remind you all that there has been one corporate uniform as far back as 1968 - the blazer. It has changed little over the years. Who originally approved it? Whose idea was it in the first place?

Just passing along info.

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

DNall

which had a whole entirely dif purpose, certainly not competitive with AF uniforms or appropriate in the same situations. My issue is primarily that we've let the sandards down further & further to be inclusive to more people with checkbooks, and in the process drifted off in whatever direction suited our immediate desires at the moment. Thru that we've lost sight of who we are & what we're about, and we've created this whole seperate team that isn't too particularly concerned with the best interests of the AF or even the federal govt. We need a little less "ME" genereation & a little more understanding of what the word auxiliary means.

ColonelJack

Now this is what I call a discussion!!   :)

Here's my two cents.  I find things to agree with in everyone's perspective.  (No, I am not running for office.)  Taking all these things into account, I offer a completely disingenuous and not-at-all-original suggestion to solve the issue:

1.  We accept as fact that there are going to be members of Civil Air Patrol who do not, cannot, do not desire to, and will not meet Air Force uniform standards. 

2.  We accept as fact that there are going to be members of CAP who do, can, desire to, and will meet AF uniform standards.

3.  We accept as fact that each category of member brings skills and talents to the table that CAP and AF need.

4.  We outfit each category with a uniform that is as close to the other category's as it can be while still being distinctive from active-duty AF.

5.  Thus, we come to this:  Those who do meet the standards wear AF uniforms with CAP insignia.  Those who don't wear the so-called TPU.  For field work, those who do wear BDUs (and the ABU when it becomes authorized).  Those who don't wear BBDUs.  For flying, those who do wear AF-style flight suits; those who don't wear CAP flight suits. 

6.  Abracadabra.

Thoughs?

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

LtCol White

Quote from: lordmonar on March 23, 2007, 05:02:43 AM
Quote from: LtCol White on March 23, 2007, 03:50:17 AMYou really just dont get it. That or you don't read thoroughly what I wrote.

I get it 100%  You want us to be USAF light.  You want to wear the USAF uniform because that makes you feel more special than someone who wears a blue CAP uniform.  You look down on those who wear CAP blue because they think they are holding us back from getting the recognition we deserve and the missions we should be doing.

And yet.  It's not the USAF who is not calling us.  It's the Oregon State Police, and the local sheriff who are not making the call.  They are the ones we need to be impressing.  And a room full of guys in 8 different uniforms does not help our image to the casual observer.

The USAF has no problems with us wearing corporate uniforms.  We have been in them for over 20 years now.  They do have a problem with us wear USAF uniforms they have been trying to force us out for the last 15 years or so.

Let's make them happy and lets improve our uniformity by going CAP Blue all the way.

Once we have a true unified uniform...we can continue to work on our compliance issues and then we continue to work on our mission qualifications.  Then maybe we will be in better light with the USAF.

First of all, I don't need the USAF uniform to make me feel like anything. Don't be so pompous as to pretend to know me or make ANY assumptions about me and what I believe.

I am a combat decorated former Marine Infantry Officer.  I have been in CAP for 25yrs. I've worked in ES and cadet programs the entire time. I have multiple disaster relief awards, 17 actual finds and the Lifesaving award from one of those. I have worked hard for media coverage for CAP and developed MOU's with State and local governments selling our services and capabilities. Many local governments are willing to work with CAP BECAUSE of the USAF affiliation and have refused offers from "regular" volunteer groups because they often have a tendency to be rogue groups who do what they want.

APPARENTLY you CAN'T read.....I said eliminate the multiple uniforms and have ONE corporate  to match each USAF. I stated VERY clearly that I was all for including those who wear the corporate uniforms. We have had alternate uniforms for MANY years and this NEVER caused a problem. We did not have all the golfshirt, grays, etc... What I advocate CLEARLY in my posts is to eliminate the useless, multiple versions.

If you feel such a need to move away from the USAF uniforms and identity, I suggest that you go find another org to join. We would be better off without you. Its exactly YOUR mindset that has perpetuated the problems that exist today between CAP and USAF. We need PROFESSIONAL people who understand the big picture. Apparently, this isnt you.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

Monty

Quote from: LtCol White on March 23, 2007, 01:18:58 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 23, 2007, 05:02:43 AM
Quote from: LtCol White on March 23, 2007, 03:50:17 AMYou really just dont get it. That or you don't read thoroughly what I wrote.

I get it 100%  You want us to be USAF light.  You want to wear the USAF uniform because that makes you feel more special than someone who wears a blue CAP uniform.  You look down on those who wear CAP blue because they think they are holding us back from getting the recognition we deserve and the missions we should be doing.

And yet.  It's not the USAF who is not calling us.  It's the Oregon State Police, and the local sheriff who are not making the call.  They are the ones we need to be impressing.  And a room full of guys in 8 different uniforms does not help our image to the casual observer.

The USAF has no problems with us wearing corporate uniforms.  We have been in them for over 20 years now.  They do have a problem with us wear USAF uniforms they have been trying to force us out for the last 15 years or so.

Let's make them happy and lets improve our uniformity by going CAP Blue all the way.

Once we have a true unified uniform...we can continue to work on our compliance issues and then we continue to work on our mission qualifications.  Then maybe we will be in better light with the USAF.

First of all, I don't need the USAF uniform to make me feel like anything. Don't be so pompous as to pretend to know me or make ANY assumptions about me and what I believe.

I am a combat decorated former Marine Infantry Officer.  I have been in CAP for 25yrs. I've worked in ES and cadet programs the entire time. I have multiple disaster relief awards, 17 actual finds and the Lifesaving award from one of those. I have worked hard for media coverage for CAP and developed MOU's with State and local governments selling our services and capabilities. Many local governments are willing to work with CAP BECAUSE of the USAF affiliation and have refused offers from "regular" volunteer groups because they often have a tendency to be rogue groups who do what they want.

APPARENTLY you CAN'T read.....I said eliminate the multiple uniforms and have ONE corporate  to match each USAF. I stated VERY clearly that I was all for including those who wear the corporate uniforms. We have had alternate uniforms for MANY years and this NEVER caused a problem. We did not have all the golfshirt, grays, etc... What I advocate CLEARLY in my posts is to eliminate the useless, multiple versions.

If you feel such a need to move away from the USAF uniforms and identity, I suggest that you go find another org to join. We would be better off without you. Its exactly YOUR mindset that has perpetuated the problems that exist today between CAP and USAF. We need PROFESSIONAL people who understand the big picture. Apparently, this isnt you.

:o

Ouch, brother......I mean, I understand passion...but GEEZ........

*****

I don't have a pony in this race, so I hope nobody sees an absence of 3 pages worth of passion on my account and questions my CAP service.

I liken this matter to something that I give MORE of a rat's patook about: my family.

I'm mighty proud to be a Montgomery.  I'm proud to resemble my Dad.  Anybody on the street that sees me knows that I'm a Montgomery and can tell who my parents are.  But neither the public, nor ME, want to be a clone look-alike of my father.

Proud to be a Montgomery....yet proud to be 100% my own face and not a mirror image (or one that could be close enough to be mistaken) as my father.

Concurrently, I'm my father's "Jr."  We share the same first, middle, and last name.  It's nice to carry his name but does one realize what a pain it is to be considered my father in the written form?  (The public generally just chops off the suffix because, "it's not that important" and voila!  I'm my father!)  I could write novels, but I won't: take my word, sometimes having a near-clone name is a pain (God rest my father's soul, nevertheless.)

My opinions on this USAF-style or Corporate-style uniform matter are nearly identical in spirit....for those that can pull it out of the examples herein!   :P

Now.........everybody; chill out, regardless of whether one is for or against!  The more each of us tries to measure our belt off of another, the more silly we start looking.   

We're grown men......not apes trying to identify some alpha male (which is what it is REALLY starting to look like from my end!)  :)

Hoo hoo hoo (chimp noises),
-Monty

MIKE

Mike Johnston