Cadet Medics

[lordmonar]

Brad......I don't see what is wrong with your radio comm scenario.    How else are you supposed to say it?

I agree, generally; especially since we're supposed to use plain language. However, if it were a real mission, it would be better to say something like, "Objective found, will contact mission base by telephone to discuss results."

If you have phones.......why use the radios in the first place? 

Because you can involve more than 2 or 3 people in a conversation at once. The IC can talk to most/all of his assets at one time to pass instructions, and any of those assets can communicate with multiple other assets at one time to coordinate search efforts.

And If I have NO phone service.....and yes there are places where there is no cell coverage......what do I do?   "Found the target....you all are going to come out here for more information".

[Luis R. Ramos]

Lord-

No you do not ask to "come here for more info." You follow adapt the procedures you use when you are in a bad radio spot. You travel to a zone with better cell reception.



Flyer

[lordmonar]

So....now I have to have a cell phone to be on a ground team?

You all are making excuses for the basic concepts here.

Use plain language when communicating.  Be brief and concise.  All other considerations is just hand wringing and double speak.

"Found him...he's dead" is perfect military communications....short, cannot be misunderstood. 

"But his family may hear", "But the media is listening", "but, but, but, but" are all considerations that I don't care about one bit as a GTL or a RTO.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Lord,

Joking aside, saying "He's dead" over the radio leads to bad scene management.You will try to secure an accident scene until police arrives, you will get reporters crashing the scene, now you need more personnel. Ya cannot arrest reporters, how do ya keep them out...?

And again, have some heart for the family. Put yourself in those shoes. You do not know your cousin was in an accident. Would you like to have someone show up at your home with a camera asking "Your cousin was found dead after an aircraft crash, how old was he? Where was he going? Was the airplane safe?"

Flyer

[lordmonar]

Lord,

Joking aside, saying "He's dead" over the radio leads to bad scene management.You will try to secure an accident scene until police arrives, you will get reporters crashing the scene, now you need more personnel. Ya cannot arrest reporters, how do ya keep them out...?

And again, have some heart for the family. Put yourself in those shoes. You do not know your cousin was in an accident. Would you like to have someone show up at your home with a camera asking "Your cousin was found dead after an aircraft crash, how old was he? Where was he going? Was the airplane safe?"

Flyer

Flyer.....all joking aside.  Explain to me how I can send said message in plain text in any way that does use a "code" that is not semantically the same as "he's dead".

I assume the media is listing....I'm not worried about them being asses....I got other things to worry about.

[Luis R. Ramos]

1.Do not use the radio to say "He is dead."
2. Use a cell phone to say "He is dead."
3. If not a good area, move to a different area or use a landline. That is why ground teams are supposed to carry about $5 in change. Tell me, you do carry pocket change, right?

Flyer

[lordmonar]

1.Do not use the radio to say "He is dead."
2. Use a cell phone to say "He is dead."
3. If not a good area, move to a different area or use a landline. That is why ground teams are supposed to carry about $5 in change. Tell me, you do carry pocket change, right?

Flyer

Not solving the problem.
And not regulatory........not necessary.
Sorry got to sign off on this argument....because I'm getting a little psycho about it.

[Brad]

Lord,

Joking aside, saying "He's dead" over the radio leads to bad scene management.You will try to secure an accident scene until police arrives, you will get reporters crashing the scene, now you need more personnel. Ya cannot arrest reporters, how do ya keep them out...?

And again, have some heart for the family. Put yourself in those shoes. You do not know your cousin was in an accident. Would you like to have someone show up at your home with a camera asking "Your cousin was found dead after an aircraft crash, how old was he? Where was he going? Was the airplane safe?"

Flyer

Flyer.....all joking aside.  Explain to me how I can send said message in plain text in any way that does use a "code" that is not semantically the same as "he's dead".

I assume the media is listing....I'm not worried about them being asses....I got other things to worry about.

True, but in a multi-agency scenario the IC and PAO will want to know who let slip that they're working a fatal before the next of kin was notified first, and I guarantee you from personal experience that they have procedures in place that "fatal", "fatality", etc. are never to be broadcast on air, in order to prevent the media swarm that flyer mentioned. So then it comes back on CAP's butt for not playing ball the right way with the other agencies because the GTL didn't want to make a phone call or say something like, "You may want to head this way".

[Eclipse]

True, but in a multi-agency scenario the IC and PAO will want to know who let slip that they're working a fatal before the next of kin was notified first, and I guarantee you from personal experience that they have procedures in place that "fatal", "fatality", etc. are never to be broadcast on air, in order to prevent the media swarm that flyer mentioned. So then it comes back on CAP's butt for not playing ball the right way with the other agencies because the GTL didn't want to make a phone call or say something like, "You may want to head this way".

During an Eval, one of the scenarios involved finding a fatality.  Having heard and read about other wings who flubbed evals with
things like the "family standing in the ICP screaming at the IC", etc., teams were briefed that information regarding the condition of
anyone they found was not to be broadcast over an open channel.

The GTL who came upon the scene called the GBD directly, made the notification and was told to remove the cadets from the area,
secure the scene and stand by.  The GBD conferred with his assistant and then calmly went directly to the IC, cleared the room
of non-essential personnel, and discretely informed the IC directly of what the situation was.

You could make the argument that the GBD should have passed the information through the OSC, but he was in the room and
informed before the GBD went to the IC.  That's chain of command minutia and people working with true team spirit don't get
bogged down in ego when things are getting "real".  The point was that Admin / FIN, Logistics, Flighline and the general public
did not need to be informed of this situation, nor would hearing it via someone yelling "we got a soft taco with cheese" or some other
nonsense be a good idea.  Those that needed to know, were informed.

From there, the IC issued downstream directives to the OSC and planning, plus CISM.   Action was taken and plans / sorties changed as necessary,
again in a discrete manner without a lot of drama. 

If its Armageddon and the only means of communications is open-frequency radio, well, then discretion is the better part of valor, but the
mission must proceed, otherwise, it should be handled over the phone.

[lordmonar]

Lord,

Joking aside, saying "He's dead" over the radio leads to bad scene management.You will try to secure an accident scene until police arrives, you will get reporters crashing the scene, now you need more personnel. Ya cannot arrest reporters, how do ya keep them out...?

And again, have some heart for the family. Put yourself in those shoes. You do not know your cousin was in an accident. Would you like to have someone show up at your home with a camera asking "Your cousin was found dead after an aircraft crash, how old was he? Where was he going? Was the airplane safe?"

Flyer

Flyer.....all joking aside.  Explain to me how I can send said message in plain text in any way that does use a "code" that is not semantically the same as "he's dead".

I assume the media is listing....I'm not worried about them being asses....I got other things to worry about.

True, but in a multi-agency scenario the IC and PAO will want to know who let slip that they're working a fatal before the next of kin was notified first, and I guarantee you from personal experience that they have procedures in place that "fatal", "fatality", etc. are never to be broadcast on air, in order to prevent the media swarm that flyer mentioned. So then it comes back on CAP's butt for not playing ball the right way with the other agencies because the GTL didn't want to make a phone call or say something like, "You may want to head this way".

In that case the IC through the AOBD and GBD will brief the crews how to make the report.

Once again.....CAP policy is open communications.   If we are going to come up with other procedures.......so we can play nice.....then they need to get written up and sent out to the field so they can be standardized.

That is all that I am saying......I agree....it is a bad idea to for many reasons to say "he's dead" over the air.....but what is the official CAP procedure for report the status of the search target?

Not how you would do it, not how you saw it done, but what is the official written policy.

[Jaison009]

As a paramedic and searcher outside of CAP we have not always used plain text. What has worked with plain text is a code word. Recently in my position with the Red Cross I was supporting a search and recovery for a County Sheriff, AR Game and Fish Officer, and four civilian fatalities. We had hundreds of searchers on site from all over the state and disciplines. You better believe that they did not announce they had located either over the radio they made recoveries without using a code word and when the Sheriff and Game and Fish Officer were recovered, it was announced VERY VERY discretely. If CAP had been there, made a recovery, and announced it out loud, they would have pissed off over half of Arkansas's emergency services community and not been welcome by a single County Sheriff for a VERY long time.

Lord,

Joking aside, saying "He's dead" over the radio leads to bad scene management.You will try to secure an accident scene until police arrives, you will get reporters crashing the scene, now you need more personnel. Ya cannot arrest reporters, how do ya keep them out...?

And again, have some heart for the family. Put yourself in those shoes. You do not know your cousin was in an accident. Would you like to have someone show up at your home with a camera asking "Your cousin was found dead after an aircraft crash, how old was he? Where was he going? Was the airplane safe?"

Flyer

Flyer.....all joking aside.  Explain to me how I can send said message in plain text in any way that does use a "code" that is not semantically the same as "he's dead".

I assume the media is listing....I'm not worried about them being asses....I got other things to worry about.

True, but in a multi-agency scenario the IC and PAO will want to know who let slip that they're working a fatal before the next of kin was notified first, and I guarantee you from personal experience that they have procedures in place that "fatal", "fatality", etc. are never to be broadcast on air, in order to prevent the media swarm that flyer mentioned. So then it comes back on CAP's butt for not playing ball the right way with the other agencies because the GTL didn't want to make a phone call or say something like, "You may want to head this way".

In that case the IC through the AOBD and GBD will brief the crews how to make the report.

Once again.....CAP policy is open communications.   If we are going to come up with other procedures.......so we can play nice.....then they need to get written up and sent out to the field so they can be standardized.

That is all that I am saying......I agree....it is a bad idea to for many reasons to say "he's dead" over the air.....but what is the official CAP procedure for report the status of the search target?

Not how you would do it, not how you saw it done, but what is the official written policy.

[Brad]

Here's what the task guide says for task L-0009, "Report a clue or Find":

1. When a clue is found, mission base needs to know immediately in order to adjust the search accordingly.
You should report the clue quickly and accurately, and suggest to mission base if any personnel (such as the
police) should be called out to look at the clue. Also remember that eavesdroppers might be listening in. Be
careful how you phrase things to avoid causing undue excitement or panic.

<snip>

TX: “(Tell the mission radio operator what, if anything)”

(For resources needed:
1: No resources needed. Rescue can be accomplished with forces on hand.
2: Advanced Life Support required.
3: Fire Suppression Personnel required.
4: Medical Examiner or Coroner required
5: Law Enforcement Personnel required.
6: Hazardous Materials Team required.
7: Additional Ground Teams required, OVER

RX: "Roger, I'll pass that on immediately, OVER"

TX: “Standing by for further instructions.”

g. Avoid conjecture. Don’t make guesses over the radio as to what the clue means. If mission base
wants your analysis, they will request it.

h. Avoid inflammatory or unclear descriptions that could unduly excite eavesdroppers. For example do
not say, “We’ve found a pile of bloody clothing.” Instead, say, “Found one pair of jeans, size 12 and one white T-shirt. Both are dirty and have possible bloodstains.”

Yes I know that there's the bit in there about the Coroner, but a smart GBD would advise his teams that if they find a possible fatal, do not request the Coroner over the air, simply call for EMS, then EMS can request the Coroner....usually A LOT faster...over their radios to their dispatch as an intra-agency coded transmission, or they'll simply call the Coroner.

[Critical AOA]

I assume the media is listing....I'm not worried about them being asses....I got other things to worry about.

yeah, certain things just can't be fixed.

[SARDOC]

If you don't want to say that someone is dead over the radio, just call in to notify the IC that you need resources to initiate a recovery operation.  It will convey the meaning without being harsh or blunt.

[SARDOC]

As a paramedic and searcher outside of CAP we have not always used plain text. What has worked with plain text is a code word. Recently in my position with the Red Cross I was supporting a search and recovery for a County Sheriff, AR Game and Fish Officer, and four civilian fatalities. We had hundreds of searchers on site from all over the state and disciplines. You better believe that they did not announce they had located either over the radio they made recoveries without using a code word and when the Sheriff and Game and Fish Officer were recovered, it was announced VERY VERY discretely. If CAP had been there, made a recovery, and announced it out loud, they would have pissed off over half of Arkansas's emergency services community and not been welcome by a single County Sheriff for a VERY long time.

That's the issue with radio communications.  They are made to try to make the flow useful information timely within your organization.  Keep in mind that radio communications are not intended for routine public disclosure. That being said this information is subject to be monitoring so provide information professionally.  It's the receiver of the information who is responsible for their own conduct or behavior when they obtain that information.  The media is included, they run the risk of also having an adversarial relationship with the agencies in their locality if they blurt out information without having it officially confirmed much to the risk of their own career.  That doesn't mean that profession doesn't have issues like we have within our organization.  People, reporters included, have to be accountable for their own actions.

[Spaceman3750]

True, but in a multi-agency scenario the IC and PAO will want to know who let slip that they're working a fatal before the next of kin was notified first, and I guarantee you from personal experience that they have procedures in place that "fatal", "fatality", etc. are never to be broadcast on air, in order to prevent the media swarm that flyer mentioned. So then it comes back on CAP's butt for not playing ball the right way with the other agencies because the GTL didn't want to make a phone call or say something like, "You may want to head this way".

During an Eval, one of the scenarios involved finding a fatality.  Having heard and read about other wings who flubbed evals with
things like the "family standing in the ICP screaming at the IC", etc., teams were briefed that information regarding the condition of
anyone they found was not to be broadcast over an open channel.

The GTL who came upon the scene called the GBD directly, made the notification and was told to remove the cadets from the area,
secure the scene and stand by.  The GBD conferred with his assistant and then calmly went directly to the IC, cleared the room
of non-essential personnel, and discretely informed the IC directly of what the situation was.

You could make the argument that the GBD should have passed the information through the OSC, but he was in the room and
informed before the GBD went to the IC.  That's chain of command minutia and people working with true team spirit don't get
bogged down in ego when things are getting "real".  The point was that Admin / FIN, Logistics, Flighline and the general public
did not need to be informed of this situation, nor would hearing it via someone yelling "we got a soft taco with cheese" or some other
nonsense be a good idea.  Those that needed to know, were informed.

From there, the IC issued downstream directives to the OSC and planning, plus CISM.   Action was taken and plans / sorties changed as necessary,
again in a discrete manner without a lot of drama. 

If its Armageddon and the only means of communications is open-frequency radio, well, then discretion is the better part of valor, but the
mission must proceed, otherwise, it should be handled over the phone.

If I remember correctly, on my "fatality" I think I sent it over the radio. Did we get dinked for that on that eval?

[SJFedor]

Call me crazy, but having worked a rather large amount of fatal incidents, I've never once had the media over-running me, trying to barge their way into the scene, or anything else. Heck, half the time when we roll on violent crimes (shooting/stabbings), at least one news station is either pulling up as we do, or they're already set up and rolling. For the most part, I think they know to stay back a bit, while still getting the footage they want. Had a quadruple shooting a month or two ago, I was 3rd unit in, and they were already set up and rolling. There was PD there, but they were (obviously) busy with other things, but the camera crews were set up out of our way, and didn't do a thing to attempt to get into our way. And this is coming from my experience working EMS in two large metropolitan areas. I didn't even make the evening news! (I'm assuming my patient was way too bloody).

As far as codewords, saying things tactfully, etc, yeah there's a time and place for it, but it's not secret squirrel stuff. When I pull up on a crap-kicking scene, and my district chief wants a situation update, he gets the info he wants, and I don't waste time dialing his phone number to give it. People are ALWAYS listening. Only certain channels in our radio network are encrypted (hospital channels); none of our operations or tactical channels are. I've had several scenes I've pulled up on, and as part of my BIR (brief incident report), Ive relayed that I have xx amount of critical patients, xx amount of obvious deaths/fatalities. Does the news media hear it? Absolutely. Do I care? Not really, I have a job to do, and part of that is keeping my command apprised of the situation, as additional resources may either be needed to my scene, or can be cancelled and reallocated.

Maybe I've lost my objectivity in not being a part of this organization anymore, but if we, in the professional emergency services world, can manage to say what we need to say on an open net, where everyone is REALLY listening, then why is everyone so worried about saying something on the net here? I've asked the news media in this area before, there's only one of the stations that even has a small clue as to what CAP is, let alone to be monitoring the frequencies that might crackle to life once a month. Say what you have to say, move on. If the family/media is THAT intently listening in on everything going on, they'll find out before you tell them formally 99% of the time anyway.

That, and having the whole "every message through communications" part of mission base is, for lack of a better word, freaking frustrating. If I had to pass every little piece of traffic through our ECC to my district chief, nothing would ever get done. If the GT finds/needs/wants something, they should talk to their GBD, NOT someone sitting in a shack who'll write it down and (eventually) pass it along, same with aircrews and their AOBD. I'm not sure if it's something the comm people came up with to feel important or to "get kept in the loop", but there's really NO need for it.  Each level should be talking DIRECTLY to their immediate supervisor, instead of adding additional links in the chain.


And that is the end of my 4am rant. 

[JayT]

Call me crazy, but having worked a rather large amount of fatal incidents, I've never once had the media over-running me, trying to barge their way into the scene, or anything else. Heck, half the time when we roll on violent crimes (shooting/stabbings), at least one news station is either pulling up as we do, or they're already set up and rolling. For the most part, I think they know to stay back a bit, while still getting the footage they want. Had a quadruple shooting a month or two ago, I was 3rd unit in, and they were already set up and rolling. There was PD there, but they were (obviously) busy with other things, but the camera crews were set up out of our way, and didn't do a thing to attempt to get into our way. And this is coming from my experience working EMS in two large metropolitan areas. I didn't even make the evening news! (I'm assuming my patient was way too bloody).

Bonus points if PD or FD suppression side has ever called you for a rush on an obviously dead patient (Which, depending on which uniform I have on and who's radio's on I'm on, is either a 10-27, a 10-83D, a Signal 49, or a Signal 50.)

[SJFedor]

Call me crazy, but having worked a rather large amount of fatal incidents, I've never once had the media over-running me, trying to barge their way into the scene, or anything else. Heck, half the time when we roll on violent crimes (shooting/stabbings), at least one news station is either pulling up as we do, or they're already set up and rolling. For the most part, I think they know to stay back a bit, while still getting the footage they want. Had a quadruple shooting a month or two ago, I was 3rd unit in, and they were already set up and rolling. There was PD there, but they were (obviously) busy with other things, but the camera crews were set up out of our way, and didn't do a thing to attempt to get into our way. And this is coming from my experience working EMS in two large metropolitan areas. I didn't even make the evening news! (I'm assuming my patient was way too bloody).

Bonus points if PD or FD suppression side has ever called you for a rush on an obviously dead patient (Which, depending on which uniform I have on and who's radio's on I'm on, is either a 10-27, a 10-83D, a Signal 49, or a Signal 50.)

Once or twice in the previous city I worked for, none now. I currently work for a FD, and we have many FF/Paramedics that used to be on the EMS side before they crossed over, w/ ALS equipped engines that will actually cancel us if it's non-working and call it themselves. If PD calls for one (rare, if its obvious they just call the ME directly), it's usually just an EMS District Chief (paramedic) who goes out and does it. Keeps the transport units in service for actual patients.

[TexasCadet]

The subject on the topic I have started has changed from Cadets Medics to radio stuff. If you want to talk about radios and their usage, you should start a new thread.