Reducing ribbons: A proposal

[MIKE]

FYI, I don't want to speak for Mike, but I believe he had a similiar idea about utilizing AF decs where possible & filling in the rest w/ CAP decs as appropriate... however he wanted to redesign a lot of ribbons to be recognizably similiar to the AF equiv, but still clearly distinctive.

I'm going more for all CAP distinctive versions.  I don't want to assume that we will be authorized the actual USAF awards.  I'm playing with a chart at the moment.

[DNall]

okay. Far as the AF, the Air Medal, Aerial Achvmt Medal, and apparently the marksmanship are not in question at all. The others require clarification to staty they can be awarded to CAP, which following the marksmanship path there is precednece for, and while citing CGAux as an example & pitching it as a streamlining of the process off top leaders down mostly to CAP-USAF... I think it's got a really great shot at getting thru actually.

Far as what goes in the CAP matrix & what they look like, I look forward to your offering. If you want me to shop up some ribbons, let me know.

[arajca]

If you want really big pics (10+Mb each) of what Vanguard has for ribbons, let me know. They're the same as the ones available on their website, but much higher quality.

[Major Carrales]

I must say, Major, that I'm a little confused. When suggestions are made to add something else to our uniforms, you oppose it with the argument of "Don't make anything more that I have to buy." But when a suggestion that would actually reduce what you have to buy, you oppose that as well.

The only thing worse than having to buy more stuff, my observant friend, is making the stuff I have already bought moot (basically turning it into garbage) and them making me purchase new "colsolidated" things.

My point is, maintain the status quo.  Most people don't wear ribbons on their AF style shirts and the is rarely need to wear them then mandated on teh service coat (being that service dress is seldom the norm".

I can't see how it effect how "professional" we look to other organizations at a mission when we don't, with the exception of Clergy and PAOs (if at all) wear them at missions?

Let people have their ceremonial stuff.  I mean, in the Knights of Columbus we use swords, plumes and capes for ceremonial work...but a Spatan blue vest when selling items at Bingo or the like.  All things in their place.

[DNall]

Joe, again I think we're all talking abou tusing ribbons that already exist, not so much creating new ones. However, ribbons cost 80 cents a piece, and holders a couple bucks. It's not a great personal tragedy.

The status quo implies what we have is okay. The contention of several in this discussion is fi you give ribbons for every little thing then it cheapens the important ones & makes us all look fake.

The professional appearance to outsiders has nothing to do with missions, it has to do with AF personnel seeing your uniform & recognizing that you've done something worthwhile for the country & the AF, rather than assuming that like JROTC you get ribbons for bakes sales & activities. The ceremonial stuff only is only meaningful if it's done right. And ot follow your KC example, even though you don't wear that stuff often, that bit of ceremony pomo & circumstance defines your shared identity, which then causes you to show up & put on the vest to help out. The uniforms & decorations aren't the whole thing, but they're a meaningful part of it.

[MIKE]

Here's my list.  I'm only addressing awards that compare to USAF awards.  Still needs work.  For some of the decorations I tried to show them in relation to the existing CAP decorations, but they aren't necessarily equivalent to each other.

[ColonelJack]

The contention of several in this discussion is fi you give ribbons for every little thing then it cheapens the important ones & makes us all look fake.

You mean sort of like when the Air Force hands out ribbons for just about everything, right?  Like finishing BMT ... or shooting expert ... or just being in for a while ... or going overseas long tour ... or going overseas short tour ... etc., etc., etc.

Dennis, I like you ... you've got some good ideas, ones I'd like to see fully fleshed out and brought to fruition.  (You also have some real clunkers, in my never-to-be-humble opinion, but don't we all??)   But sometimes you and others take up a cudgel that doesn't need to be bothered.  With all respect to those who started the thread (and I mean that sincerely, as I do in fact respect you), this is a solution that's trying to find a problem.  We may have a lot of ribbons ... I don't know how you'd define "a lot" but I'll concede that point.  The "real" military (TM) has a lot more.  Some of them are given for some of the silliest reasons, too.  I would support a move to reduce/consolidate our ribbons when the AF stops handing out bling like candy. 

Jack

[DNall]

There are a few ribons in the military that aren't difficult to earn, and there are a few in all the proposals here that aren't that difficult either (plus some of those same AF decs). The big area where stuff is being cut is 6 dif types of activity ribbon, 4 dif types of operational service ribbon, and stuff that is already indicated in other ways (iie crossfield & badge, CC ribbon & badge) It's not that much, just a little cleanup. Then at the end of it you can do limited run campaign ribbons for significant events that involve lots of people, rather than mission types.

Mike, I like most of it. Think we can slam a lot of ideas here together & come up with some good stuff.

[MIKE]

Mike, I like most of it. Think we can slam a lot of ideas here together & come up with some good stuff.

Added DFC, because it can be awarded in peacetime... Air Medal edited appropriately.

Edit: Added criteria for CAPOUA and CAPOEA

[arajca]

How are you deciding which ones have medals and which ones don't?

Also, labeling the columns would help.

[MIKE]

How are you deciding which ones have medals and which ones don't?

Comparative Air Force awards.

[Hawk200]

The status quo implies what we have is okay. The contention of several in this discussion is fi you give ribbons for every little thing then it cheapens the important ones & makes us all look fake.

The professional appearance to outsiders has nothing to do with missions, it has to do with AF personnel seeing your uniform & recognizing that you've done something worthwhile for the country & the AF, rather than assuming that like JROTC you get ribbons for bakes sales & activities. The ceremonial stuff only is only meaningful if it's done right. ...The uniforms & decorations aren't the whole thing, but they're a meaningful part of it.

Wish I could have put it so succinctly. Especially when addressing professional appearance, and valid recognition of accomplishments. Some of these awards recognize things you're supposed to be doing. Recognition is for over and above the bare minimums. It doesn't even have to be drastically over and above, just noticeably so.

[Hawk200]

You mean sort of like when the Air Force hands out ribbons for just about everything, right?  Like finishing BMT...

I'll agree on that one. Ditching the BMT ribbon was far more reasonable than eliminating a medal. But they did.

... or shooting expert

Getting the impression that you don't have any military experience, otherwise you'd know that every branch of military service recognizes expert marksmanship. BTW, that means you went well above the minimum standards of marksmanship.

... or just being in for a while...

Agreed. It could be argued that it's part of your military "resume", but it's not a concept I personally subscribe to.

...or going overseas long tour ... or going overseas short tour ...

Part of the mlitary resume thing there. It's important to know some things. You can figure out how long a guy/gal has been in from reading in their rack, so a longevity ribbon isn't really important.

Dennis, I like you ... you've got some good ideas, ones I'd like to see fully fleshed out and brought to fruition.  (You also have some real clunkers, in my never-to-be-humble opinion, but don't we all??)   But sometimes you and others take up a cudgel that doesn't need to be bothered With all respect to those who started the thread (and I mean that sincerely, as I do in fact respect you), this is a solution that's trying to find a problem.  We may have a lot of ribbons ... I don't know how you'd define "a lot" but I'll concede that point.  The "real" military (TM) has a lot more.  Some of them are given for some of the silliest reasons, too.  I would support a move to reduce/consolidate our ribbons when the AF stops handing out bling like candy. 

ColonelJack, this bluntness is probably going to make me unpopular, but I've seen your posts becoming increasingly rude and arrogant. And some of your ignorance of the miltary does not support your arguments. If you have been military in the past, it appears you have forgotten the experience.

There may be a few decs that have less meaning than others in the military, but drawing a comparison between Air Force decs and CAP decs is ignorant in the extreme. In most cases, a CAP member can have twice as many decs in the same time as an Air Force member. And in most cases, those CAP decs have far less effort required to earn.

And for future reference, telling someone you respect them, and then telling them that their post isn't of value (such as "this is a solution that's trying to find a problem") is a lie. You may not agree, but it is viewed that way.

[Hawk200]

Back to the original thread. If anyone has any additional things that they feel would be best served in addition to the original concept, post them.

To the naysayers, you've been heard. Say you disagree, preferably in a brief manner, then please move on.

[ColonelJack]

... or shooting expert

Getting the impression that you don't have any military experience, otherwise you'd know that every branch of military service recognizes expert marksmanship. BTW, that means you went well above the minimum standards of marksmanship. 

Sorry for the misleading statements ... I actually earned one of those expert marksman ribbons I mentioned back in '75.  I do have military experience and am aware that all branches recognize expert marskmanship.  That inclusion was an error on my part.

... or just being in for a while...

Agreed. It could be argued that it's part of your military "resume", but it's not a concept I personally subscribe to.

...or going overseas long tour ... or going overseas short tour ...

Part of the mlitary resume thing there. It's important to know some things. You can figure out how long a guy/gal has been in from reading in their rack, so a longevity ribbon isn't really important.

ColonelJack, this bluntness is probably going to make me unpopular, but I've seen your posts becoming increasingly rude and arrogant. And some of your ignorance of the miltary does not support your arguments. If you have been military in the past, it appears you have forgotten the experience.

Hawk200, it is never my intention to be rude or arrogant.  And I apologize to you and to all here if my words have been coming across that way.  Calling me on that would not make you unpopular with me ... as I say to those who review what I write for publication, "Nice comments make me feel good; honest ones make me a better writer."  If I'm coming across in a way I don't intend to, I need to be told this, so I can make sure it doesn't happen again.  Far from being angry or upset, I'm grateful to you for pointing this out to me.

I've not forgotten one moment of my time in the Air Force; in fact, I find myself drawing on the experiences even now, some 30 years after I went back to civlilan life.  While like many I'd love to see a closer relationship between CAP and the AF, I simply state my position based on what I see happening now, not the way I'd like for it to be.   Just because it was a certain way 30 years ago (when wearing the blue suit was what I did for a living), that doesn't mean it was the right way to do it then -- or now.  These are my opinions, of course, free ... and worth what they cost.

There may be a few decs that have less meaning than others in the military, but drawing a comparison between Air Force decs and CAP decs is ignorant in the extreme. In most cases, a CAP member can have twice as many decs in the same time as an Air Force member. And in most cases, those CAP decs have far less effort required to earn.

My friend, I am not the one comparing CAP awards to Air Force awards.  (Though the chart that is doing so is quite well researched and may actually help change my way of thinking on this issue.  I am open to change.)  I'm simply saying that just as there are several AF decs that are no harder to earn than showing up ... so are there many CAP ones earned the same way.  That's all I said, though I may not have been as clear as I could have been in saying so.

And for future reference, telling someone you respect them, and then telling them that their post isn't of value (such as "this is a solution that's trying to find a problem") is a lie. You may not agree, but it is viewed that way.

Rebuke earned, deserved, and accepted.  I should have said, "In my opinion, this is a solution in search of a problem, but you are doing some hard work" and recognized the effort that is going into the idea.  I may not agree with it -- heck, I don't -- but I can appreciate what is being discussed and offered. 

There are indeed times I should keep my mouth shut. 

Jack

[arajca]

CADETS:
In general I say leave them alone. They're 12, they need regular ego boosts to retain their attention & dedication. It's no different than JROTC. Couple exceptions though:
1) Concur with combining the recruiting ribbons. Award standards don't necessarily have to be the same (particularly for subsequent devices), but the ribbon can.
2) C/Officers should cut the achievements to milestons only & wear some/none/all.
3) I can concur with consolidating to one activity ribbon, and clasps for additional activities (not repeat of the same one).

On 2), I agree the "all, some, or none" option needs to come back, but I disagree on prohibiting cadet officers from wearing their achievement ribbons. That's what caused the "some" option to be lost for cadets.

ADULTS:
snip
Above awards explained:
Mission Action Medal: Takes the place of SaR, DR, HLS, CN, O-pilot, & find; like the Air Medal, it can be awarded for single acts of courage in mission performance (designated w/ "V") or for sorties like the current range of ribbons.

CAP Unit Citation: Is what it is now & less important than the two higher AF unit awards

Like the idea.

Mission Readiness: Continuous Maint of ES qual as mission pilot/observer, GTL, or higher over a 3 year period. Also requires active in ES, not just on paper. Additional award for each three year period.

What about all the support personnel? IC, Section chiefs, MRO, CUL, etc?

Outstanding Officer "of the year" award ribbon: For selection as Wg/Reg/Nat officer of teh year within a designated specialty. Ribbon for Wg, triangle/oak leaf for Reg, stars for Nat, no multiple awards in the same year from dif echelons.

It's be a nice thing.

CAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size - under 20 active adults = 1 award, under 50=2, under 75=3, under 100=4. This is basically the internal Sq or Gp member of the year award.

You need to count cadets as well as seniors, unless you plan to make this a senior only award.

AE Instructor = Yeager, bronze prop for instructor course, silver prop for crossfield

Activities = Takes the place of five ribbons, can be awarded for designated Wg/Reg events (encampment, CAC, RCLS, Flight Academies) with triangle (or oak leaf) devices for additional awards; also awarded for national level activities (IACE, NCSA, NCC, NCGC, etc), additional awards designated by stars. This should be awarded to distinguished participants only, not everyone, and should not repeat for similiar actions (2nd round as encampment director).

Looks ok.

Recruiting Service: One ribbon for cadets & adults, but dif standards. The adult ribbon requires tech in recuiting track in addition to recruiting 10 new members. Bronze & silver star designate Sr & master rating, Enamel CAP seal for mess dress my be worn as pocket device (w/ attachment device) while actively assigned as a recruiting & retention officer at any echelon. Cloth seal like we used to wear on flight suits can be worn in this location on BDU/BBDU.

Having different standards for cadets and seniors for the same award doesn't make sense to me. How do handle the cadet who receives this award for meeting the minimum cadet requirements when they turn senior? Do they lose the award?

Requiring the tech rating for the ribbon doesn't seem right. There are many members who will meet the number requirements for bringing in new members, but for various reasons, not meet the tech requirements.

Professional Development: I'm willing to conceed that the GRW stay in place, but Lvl I-IV would be designated on a single ribbon with devices for each level.

I can agree with that.

[DNall]

Mission Readiness: Continuous Maint of ES qual as mission pilot/observer, GTL, or higher over a 3 year period. Also requires active in ES, not just on paper. Additional award for each three year period.

What about all the support personnel? IC, Section chiefs, MRO, CUL, etc?

The AF equiv says 24months continuous combat readiness as aircrew on a combat aircraft. Hence, I've excluded scanner, GTM, UDF, TMP, MRO, IC, etc. It's for maintaining field supervisory quals over the long hual. That incentivizes IC staff maintaining quals rather than trying to lead based on their field knowledge from 1975. I'm open minded about CUL though.

CAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size...

You need to count cadets as well as seniors, unless you plan to make this a senior only award.

I'm fine with cadets getting it, but the same standards should be applied regardless of the person performing the action, not easier for cadets & harder for LtCols. And it should not be something tossed around like candy, just cause it can be awarded at the Sq/Gp level.

Recruiting Service: One ribbon for cadets & adults, but dif standards. The adult ribbon requires tech in recuiting track in addition to recruiting 10 new members. Bronze & silver star designate Sr & master rating, Enamel CAP seal for mess dress my be worn as pocket device (w/ attachment device) while actively assigned as a recruiting & retention officer at any echelon. Cloth seal like we used to wear on flight suits can be worn in this location on BDU/BBDU.

Having different standards for cadets and seniors for the same award doesn't make sense to me. How do handle the cadet who receives this award for meeting the minimum cadet requirements when they turn senior? Do they lose the award?

Requiring the tech rating for the ribbon doesn't seem right. There are many members who will meet the number requirements for bringing in new members, but for various reasons, not meet the tech requirements.[/quote]
I'm least decisive about the recruiting ribbon issues. I do think cadets should have an incentive to bring a couple people in, they are easily amused. For adults though, that's part of the gig. As far as it coming off when you go Sr, yes it would, right along with all your lower achievements, activity ribbons, model rocketry badge, solo wings, etc. Just like you don't keep JROTC ribbons when you go to college ROTC, and don't take college ribbons to the military with you. You need one ribbon (highest achievement) to show you were once a cadet, and that's it. The valor, merit, & mission awards stay, cause you earned those same as everyone else.

[Hammer]

Can Military Officers still take SOS, ACSC, and AWC via correspondence?

You may find that as a CAP Officer you are eligible to take a course that a military officer can't due to grade requirements.  For example, a CAP Captain can take SOS where a USAF 2 Lt can't.  I've seen cases where a CAP officer who was also an AD USAF officer could take a course that he was not eligible for as a USAF officer. But after completing it as a CAP officer, the certificate of completion was placed in his USAF personal  file as well as the CAP file.

So if that CAP SM/USAF Officer takes said course, will it still count as his SOS/ACSC/AWC?

[Hammer]

I think just add a "CAP Unit Commanders' Achievement Ribbon/Medal" and be done with it.  Let the Sq/CC be the awarding dude.  Let all unit commandwers be the person who awards it.  Either that or change the Commanders Commendation to be awarded by unit commanders.

[DNall]

So if that CAP SM/USAF Officer takes said course, will it still count as his SOS/ACSC/AWC?

Yes of course, and joint PME credit if you are in another service. And a good way to get ahead too. It does check off the requirement box. You could still be offered a chance to go to the in-res later, especially if its been a while. SOS is the most dif from the in-res, & the eval that happens there is very inmportant to your future. ACSC & AWC are a lot closer in terms of content, but there is a dynamic in person with the extra resources at hand that you don't get, and of course selection is very competitive. Regardless, this is an opportunity you should use in such a situation cause it will really help you out down the road.

I think just add a "CAP Unit Commanders' Achievement Ribbon/Medal" and be done with it.  Let the Sq/CC be the awarding dude.  Let all unit commandwers be the person who awards it.  Either that or change the Commanders Commendation to be awarded by unit commanders.

Can we call it a CAP recognition ribbon? Though misnamed, the current CAP merit decs are basically right, just the one on bottom is missing, and that's the one that owuld be real helpful to encourage local performance.

That individual issue was going on in a seperate discussion a while back & is just getting tied in here with a big picture view.