Reducing ribbons: A proposal

Started by Hawk200, March 05, 2007, 07:20:06 PM

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Hawk200

    A few ideas on consolidating some of our ribbons. A couple ideas are mine, the rest I've added from various ideas posted into a program type of concept for ease of use. Hopefully the outline will make sense to everyone.

    1. Professional Development
    • Eliminate Loening, Garber, and Wilson ribbons.
    • Utilize Leadership ribbon and treat it in the same manner as the Air Force PME ribbon. Award Leadership ribbon upon completion of Level 2. For Loening (Level 3) and Garber (Level 4) awards, add a bronze Oak Leaf Cluster for each award. For Wilson (Level 5) award, add a silver star between the two oak leaf clusters (to maintain distinctiveness of the Wilson award).
    • Reduces the number of ribbons for Professional  Develeopment. Specialty track badges already serve as a means of identifying individual specialty tracks, and experience in those tracks(Basic, Senior, Master).

    2. Aerospace Education

    • Eliminate Crossfield award.
    • Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
    • Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

    3. Recruiter Ribbons
    • Consolidate Senior Member and cadet recruiter ribbons.
    • Utilize one ribbon for both, and implement a common standard for both member brackets.
    • Unnecessary to maintain two separate standards.

    4. Command Service

    • Eliminate Command Service Ribbon.
    • Mirror Air Force policy for wear of command service badge.
    • Command service ribbon is unnecessary, when an existing device can be used with a policy change to denote the same accomplishment.

    5. Special Activities

    • Eliminate National Cadet Competition Ribbon, National Color Guard Competition Ribbon.
    • Consolidate with Cadet Specialty Activity Ribbon.
    • Reduction of overall ribbons. Cadet Comp, and Color Guard comp are similar activities to those listed as Special Activities.

    6. Mission Related
    • Eliminate Counterdrug ribbon.
    • Rename Air Search and Rescue Ribbon to "Operational Missons" (or something to that effect, just a working idea), and award for either SaR or CD missions.
    • Both ASaR and CD ribbon have a requirment of 10 sorties for award, or additional award. No need to have separate ribbons for the same number of required sorties for similar missions.

    Overall, nine eliminated. Any other ideas? There was a couple of ribbons I thought of, but wasn't certain if eliminating was appropriate or not. Personally, I'd be willing to give up a few ribbons. Would make putting together my rack easier.

    carnold1836

    Quote2. Aerospace Education

        * Eliminate Crossfield award.
        * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
        * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

    What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?
    Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
    Pegasus Composite Squadron

    lordmonar

    1.  Concure...but I would just go with bronze oak leaves.....count the leaves, add one and you have what Level of PD they have completed.
    2.  Completely concure....no need for AE Master rating to get its own ribbon.
    3.  Concure...although IIRC they tried this before and it got shot down for some reason.
    4.  Concure....infact I submitted a proposal to do just that....but it got lost in the bureaucracy.
    5.  Again concure.
    6.  Suggest they eliminate all mission related medals and consolidate them int one "Mission Achievement" award.  Develope criteria for x number of sorties/shifts for aircrew, ground teams and mission base personnel. (note...we will have to do some minor fixes on what is considered a mission/sortie/shift to make it a little more equatable.)


    While we are at it....lets do the same thing for the cadets.  Eliminate all the achievements and just go with the Milestone awards.  Cadets will earn the current WB when the finish Achievement one and put OLCs for achievements 2-3 and the WB award. (we rename the WB to Phase I ribbon) We do the same for all the other phase ribbons.  This serves the balance between too much bling and instant gratification that is important in motivating young (and old) people.
    PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

    lordmonar

    Quote from: carnold1836 on March 05, 2007, 07:25:06 PM
    Quote2. Aerospace Education

        * Eliminate Crossfield award.
        * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
        * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

    What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?

    You also get the Master AE badge.

    Also...why does AE get a special ribbon for the Master Rateing and no other specialty track does?
    PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

    afgeo4

    I agree on all points except for AE... Yeager and Crossfield awards aren't even similar. The Yeager is awarded for the completion of the senior AE program while the Crossfield is given to Aerospace Educators who've reached the master level of the specialtry track. I think awards should stay as they are, but... the AE master rating badge is quite capable of denoting the level of AE proficiency in a member. There's no need for the ribbon for the Crossfield. The yeager isn't denoted in any way on a uniform aside from the ribbon, so that should be kept.

    Summary: Keep Yeager award ribbon and eliminate Crossfield award ribbon. Keep issuing both awards on paper. If a ribbon for Crossfield is absolutely necessary, authorize a Prop clasp to be placed on the Yeager ribbon and rename said ribbon to Aerospace Education ribbon.
    GEORGE LURYE

    Hawk200

    Quote from: carnold1836 on March 05, 2007, 07:25:06 PM
    Quote2. Aerospace Education

        * Eliminate Crossfield award.
        * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
        * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

    What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?

    The Aerospace Education badge indicates basic, senior and master levels. So a ribbon for Master level is a duplication of award for the same accomplishement.

    ddelaney103

    Quote from: lordmonar on March 05, 2007, 07:36:41 PM
    Quote from: carnold1836 on March 05, 2007, 07:25:06 PM
    Quote2. Aerospace Education

        * Eliminate Crossfield award.
        * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
        * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

    What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?

    You also get the Master AE badge.

    Also...why does AE get a special ribbon for the Master Rating and no other specialty track does?

    The usual reason - somebody wanted to encourage more Master AE officers and bling is the only tool in the HR basket for a lot of people.

    Kinda like the days when they started the AF NCO PME ribbon.  Originally, NCO's had a choice to go in person or by correspondence so they offered a ribbon to encourage in person PME.  Nowadays, in residence PME is mandatory so, except for the Reserve and Guard and a few AD types who got waivers, everyone gets the ribbon.

    afgeo4

    Quote from: ddelaney103 on March 05, 2007, 07:54:59 PM
    Quote from: lordmonar on March 05, 2007, 07:36:41 PM
    Quote from: carnold1836 on March 05, 2007, 07:25:06 PM
    Quote2. Aerospace Education

        * Eliminate Crossfield award.
        * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
        * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

    What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?

    You also get the Master AE badge.

    Also...why does AE get a special ribbon for the Master Rating and no other specialty track does?

    The usual reason - somebody wanted to encourage more Master AE officers and bling is the only tool in the HR basket for a lot of people.

    Kinda like the days when they started the AF NCO PME ribbon.  Originally, NCO's had a choice to go in person or by correspondence so they offered a ribbon to encourage in person PME.  Nowadays, in residence PME is mandatory so, except for the Reserve and Guard and a few AD types who got waivers, everyone gets the ribbon.
    Actually, there's a reverse trend developing in today's CAP. Many NCOs are encouraged to take NCOA via correspondence and I've heard that it may become waived for promotion to MSgt.
    GEORGE LURYE

    lordmonar

    I understand the bling argument .....but they have always had a master badge.  That is what I don't understand....the double bling.

    Same argument for the cadet rank/acheivment ribbons.
    PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

    ddelaney103

    Quote from: afgeo4 on March 05, 2007, 08:01:12 PM
    Quote from: ddelaney103 on March 05, 2007, 07:54:59 PM
    Quote from: lordmonar on March 05, 2007, 07:36:41 PM
    Quote from: carnold1836 on March 05, 2007, 07:25:06 PM
    Quote2. Aerospace Education

        * Eliminate Crossfield award.
        * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
        * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

    What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?

    You also get the Master AE badge.

    Also...why does AE get a special ribbon for the Master Rating and no other specialty track does?

    The usual reason - somebody wanted to encourage more Master AE officers and bling is the only tool in the HR basket for a lot of people.

    Kinda like the days when they started the AF NCO PME ribbon.  Originally, NCO's had a choice to go in person or by correspondence so they offered a ribbon to encourage in person PME.  Nowadays, in residence PME is mandatory so, except for the Reserve and Guard and a few AD types who got waivers, everyone gets the ribbon.
    Actually, there's a reverse trend developing in today's CAP. Many NCOs are encouraged to take NCOA via correspondence and I've heard that it may become waived for promotion to MSgt.

    I don't understand - CAP doesn't promote any NCO's.

    On the AF side, I haven't heard anything about pushing the NCOA correspondence, though I'm not active duty so I may be missing it.

    carnold1836

    QuoteSummary: Keep Yeager award ribbon and eliminate Crossfield award ribbon. Keep issuing both awards on paper. If a ribbon for Crossfield is absolutely necessary, authorize a Prop clasp to be placed on the Yeager ribbon and rename said ribbon to Aerospace Education ribbon.

    I would definitely agree with this. And the Master rating in AE isn't exactly easy to get, there is plenty of outside (not at a CAP function) work that has to be done in the community to get to this level. I haven't personally looked what is required for other master ratings, but I would say the AE is probably in the top 3 of external duties required to attain the level.

    Again though I could be wrong.
    Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
    Pegasus Composite Squadron

    ColonelJack

    Well, at the risk of being thought of as a damp dishtowel (or worse), let me ask this --

    Why are we even discussing reducing the number of ribbons that can be earned/worn?

    Officers already have the choice of wearing all, some, or none.  If you think your rack is too loaded, drop a few off.  Or don't wear any. 

    This strikes me as an item that doesn't even need to be discussed.  BUT, since you brought it up ...

    Don't mess with the Loening, Garber, and Wilson ribbons.  I don't know about yours, but my GRW was dog-goned hard to earn (timewise and workwise) and I think I deserve something special for it, not a little doo-dad added to a ribbon I started wearing years before.

    And the Crossfield ribbon isn't the same thing as the Yeager ribbon.  Maybe we don't need a ribbon for Master AE (I have one of those too); I can go along with that.  But for some of the other suggestions, as long as the criteria for earning the ribbon (ex. Recruiter) are different for Officers and cadets, then the ribbon should be different as well.  Unless there's a change for wear of the command badge, the command service ribbon is a good idea.  As for combining cadet special activity ribbons, I'll defer my comments to those who actually do such things and let them worry about that.

    Jack
    Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
    Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
    Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
    Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
    Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

    Hawk200

    Quote from: ColonelJack on March 05, 2007, 09:41:12 PM
    Why are we even discussing reducing the number of ribbons that can be earned/worn?

    Because there are many people that believe that we have too many.

    QuoteOfficers already have the choice of wearing all, some, or none.  If you think your rack is too loaded, drop a few off.  Or don't wear any. 

    Doesn't address the issue of an excessive number.  And what manner do you use to determine what to drop? Also there are many people that believe that all ribbons should be worn, regardless of how many or few.

    QuoteThis strikes me as an item that doesn't even need to be discussed. 

    Considering some of the responses, many have a differing outlook.

    QuoteI don't know about yours, but my GRW was dog-goned hard to earn (timewise and workwise) and I think I deserve something special for it,...

    My proposal is not set in stone, I'm open to suggestions to improve it. Addressing the issue, the Wilson is rather rare, so I can see maintaining that ribbon. Not many people would ever earn it, so it wouldn't be something that everyone has so they wouldn't have to be concerned about a large number.

    QuoteBut for some of the other suggestions, as long as the criteria for earning the ribbon (ex. Recruiter) are different for Officers and cadets, then the ribbon should be different as well. 

    Why does there need to be two different standards? I've seen it take years for a senior to get a recruiter ribbon. In a moderately growing squadron, a cadet can have two other people joined up in the first year of his membership. It's a double standard for the same concept.

    QuoteUnless there's a change for wear of the command badge, the command service ribbon is a good idea. 

    The Command Service Ribbon could be considered a relic. It was adopted before there was a badge. Presently, a commander wears the badge, then removes it when they step down.  They still have a badge in their possession, but can no longer use it. To show command experience, you have to buy a ribbon.

    The Air Force command badge policy is simple. You wear the badge over your nametag while commanding. When no longer in command, you move it to below the nametag. Nothing new to buy. Just a change in position for an item you already have.

    QuoteAs for combining cadet special activity ribbons, I'll defer my comments to those who actually do such things and let them worry about that.

    Just another proposal. And like I said above, not set in stone. I would welcome input from those that have done those things, and their thoughts as to whether or not it would be equitable.

    Monty

    Quote from: ColonelJack on March 05, 2007, 09:41:12 PM
    I don't know about yours, but my GRW was dog-goned hard to earn (timewise and workwise) and I think I deserve something special for it, not a little doo-dad added to a ribbon I started wearing years before.

    I was going to write that but then thought, "I can't be swimming in this uniform crap like most my comrades love doing....."

    :)

    Nobody's taking my GRW ribbon....how 'bout them apples?   :D 

    ZigZag911

    Leave the ribbons alone:

    1) some people actually EARNED them!
    2) what would we -- or the National Board, for that matter --have left to talk about without them?!?

    Chappie

    #15
    Quote from: msmjr2003 on March 05, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
    Quote from: ColonelJack on March 05, 2007, 09:41:12 PM
    I don't know about yours, but my GRW was dog-goned hard to earn (timewise and workwise) and I think I deserve something special for it, not a little doo-dad added to a ribbon I started wearing years before.

    I was going to write that but then thought, "I can't be swimming in this uniform crap like most my comrades love doing....."

    :)

    Nobody's taking my GRW ribbon....how 'bout them apples?   :D 

    Concur...the GRW award should not be relegated to a clasp.  Cadets are proud of earning the Spaatz award...and rightfully so.  Senior Members/Officers who have earned the Gill Robb Wilson are a select few in the organization and should be proud of their accomplishments.  To have the award presented by a General Officer of the USAF or CAP, or an elected State/Fed Official or some other person of distinction and then have the recepient wear a clasp on the leadership ribbon would be (IMHO) demeaning to say the least.

    And besides....anyone willing to spend a week in Montgomery, AL deserves a medal  :D
    Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

    DNall

    I've been waiting for Mike to post his revised matrix of decorations, but I'll put in my thoughts now & work to aid him in his presentation when he's ready.

    CADETS:
    In general I say leave them alone. They're 12, they need regular ego boosts to retain their attention & dedication. It's no different than JROTC. Couple exceptions though:
    1) Concur with combining the recruiting ribbons. Award standards don't necessarily have to be the same (particularly for subsequent devices), but the ribbon can.
    2) C/Officers should cut the achievements to milestons only & wear some/none/all.
    3) I can concur with consolidating to one activity ribbon, and clasps for additional activities (not repeat of the same one).

    ADULTS:
    My proposal is pretty simple... many AF decs are awardable to civilians & routinely are. Work with AF to streamline this recommendation process, fill in holes with new ribbons, eliminate excess.

    Suggest to AF that a paragraph be added to AFI 36-2803 explaining which decorations can be awarded to CAP members for service to AF, and the recommendation routing. The beauty of this is an AF employee (state director) is the initial recipient & all decisions are kept on the with the AF; they can award or not as they see fit. Here's the key change: The echelon approval levels would be the same as the AF & the chain of command for this purpose would be as follows: State Director as Sq/CC, RegLO as Gp/CC, CAP-USAF/CC as Wg/CC, AU, AETC, CSAF, SAF. The reasons behind this are pretty straight forward: it provides increased recognition idenifiable by both sides as contribution to the AF; better aligns with our parent service; and, aids members in the military with additional recognition & career enhancement for their additional contributions.

    So lets take a look at that & tell me what you think...
    KEY:
    Stirkethru = not awardable to CAP
    Underline = not awardable to CAP, but rec SAF consider changing that as appro
    Bold = Are awardable to civilians or CAP specifically & Non Combat
    Italics = awardable to civilians, but requires combat
    NOTE: Though inserted next to the AF equiv below, all CAP awards still come behind all mil decs!!! This is merely to demonstrate toe congurance.

    MOH
    AFC
    DSM
                                 CAP Dist Svc Medal
    SS                              CAP Silver Medal for Valor
    Legion of Merit
    DFC                            CAP Bronze Medal for Valor
    Airman's Medal             Lifesaving
    Bronze Star
    Purple Heart
    Meritorious Svc          CAP Exceptional Svc (rename CAP Meritorious Svc)       
    Air Medal                      Mission Action Medal (V for single heroic acts)
    Aerial Achvmt Medal
    AF Commendation     CAP Meritorious Svc (rename CAP Commendation)
    AF Achvmt                    Commander's Comm (rename CAP Achvmt)
    Pres Unit Citation (C)      CAP Unit Citation
    AF Outstanding Unit
    AF Organizational Excellence

    POW
    Combat Readiness              Create new Mission Readiness
    Reserve Merit (longevity)
    Outstanding Airman of the Year   Outstanding officer "of the year" awards
    AF Recognition             Create new "CAP Recognition" awardable by Sq/Gp
    (Campaign medals)
    National Defense Svc Medal
    (Campaign medals)
    Armed Forces Svc Medal (?)
    Humanitarian Svc
    Mil Outstanding Volunteer Svc

    (Overseas long/short)
    Longevity                         Rename Red Service "Longevity Ribbon"
    BMT Instructor                  AE Instructor Ribbon  Activities Ribbon
    Recruiting Duty                      Recruiting Service
    Armed Forces Reserve
    NCO PME
                        Professional Development ribbon (devices for level)
    BMT Honor Grad
    Marksmanship             Awardable for pistol qual only, on AF range w/ AF inst.
    AF Training                  Awardable for completion of SOS, ACSC, or AWC
    (campaign medals)

    Above awards explained:
    Mission Action Medal:
    Takes the place of SaR, DR, HLS, CN, O-pilot, & find; like the Air Medal, it can be awarded for single acts of courage in mission performance (designated w/ "V") or for sorties like the current range of ribbons.

    CAP Unit Citation: Is what it is now & less important than the two higher AF unit awards

    Mission Readiness: Continuous Maint of ES qual as mission pilot/observer, GTL, or higher over a 3 year period. Also requires active in ES, not just on paper. Additional award for each three year period.

    Outstanding Officer "of the year" award ribbon: For selection as Wg/Reg/Nat officer of teh year within a designated specialty. Ribbon for Wg, triangle/oak leaf for Reg, stars for Nat, no multiple awards in the same year from dif echelons.

    CAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size - under 20 active adults = 1 award, under 50=2, under 75=3, under 100=4. This is basically the internal Sq or Gp member of the year award.

    AE Instructor = Yeager, bronze prop for instructor course, silver prop for crossfield

    Activities = Takes the place of five ribbons, can be awarded for designated Wg/Reg events (encampment, CAC, RCLS, Flight Academies) with triangle (or oak leaf) devices for additional awards; also awarded for national level activities (IACE, NCSA, NCC, NCGC, etc), additional awards designated by stars. This should be awarded to distinguished participants only, not everyone, and should not repeat for similiar actions (2nd round as encampment director).

    Recruiting Service: One ribbon for cadets & adults, but dif standards. The adult ribbon requires tech in recuiting track in addition to recruiting 10 new members. Bronze & silver star designate Sr & master rating, Enamel CAP seal for mess dress my be worn as pocket device (w/ attachment device) while actively assigned as a recruiting & retention officer at any echelon. Cloth seal like we used to wear on flight suits can be worn in this location on BDU/BBDU.

    Professional Development: I'm willing to conceed that the GRW stay in place, but Lvl I-IV would be designated on a single ribbon with devices for each level.


    Net effect:
    This adds 4 decs; eliminates 18 decs; & opens up 3-7 AF decs (not counting awards with a combat requirement)

    lordmonar

    Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 05, 2007, 10:43:44 PM
    Leave the ribbons alone:

    1) some people actually EARNED them!
    2) what would we -- or the National Board, for that matter --have left to talk about without them?!?

    Not saying anyone did not earn them....just want to clear up some of the redundant bling.
    PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

    lordmonar

    Quote from: DNall on March 05, 2007, 11:42:46 PMADULTS:
    My proposal is pretty simple... many AF decs are awardable to civilians & routinely are. Work with AF to streamline this recommendation process, fill in holes with new ribbons, eliminate excess.

    Suggest to AF that a paragraph be added to AFI 36-2803 explaining which decorations can be awarded to CAP members for service to AF, and the recommendation routing. The beauty of this is an AF employee (state director) is the initial recipient & all decisions are kept on the with the AF; they can award or not as they see fit. Here's the key change: The echelon approval levels would be the same as the AF & the chain of command for this purpose would be as follows: State Director as Sq/CC, RegLO as Gp/CC, CAP-USAF/CC as Wg/CC, AU, AETC, CSAF, SAF. The reasons behind this are pretty straight forward: it provides increased recognition idenifiable by both sides as contribution to the AF; better aligns with our parent service; and, aids members in the military with additional recognition & career enhancement for their additional contributions.

    I understand where you are going with this...and I agree with it to a degree.

    But there are some problems with it.

    First.  If we give the USAF complete control for all of our decorations we have no way to recognize our people who do great work for CAP but nothing on AF missions.

    Second.  We would have to deal with the issue of AD military people who get awards on CAP time.  A MSM is worth 5 points on my promotion exam and there is some very specific unofficial (if that is possible) on who rates a particular medal.  SrA snuffy who is also a CAP Capt working on wing staff gets a MSM for doing a great job would be getting a medal he would be completely ineligible for in the USAF....even if he really did the job of a MSgt at a wing/squadron level job. (it's not fair but that is the system we live with).

    As for you matrix....there are minor problems I have with it...but something similar can be worked out.

    I would agree that the CAP decoration system be reworked to match the USAF system.  A CAP Achievement Medal, CAP Commendation Medal, Cap Marksman Ribbon etc.  If we go with just USAF medal we would have to go with USAF award criteria...and I can tell you that by USAF standards no one would ever get above a Achievement or Commendation medal.  The marksman award can only be awarded for passing the USAF Qualification Course and CAP is NOT authorized to take that course (you can bend the rule that allow the ROTC familiarization course but I don't think that one counts toward qualification).

    Again...I understand your push to get us as close to USAF as possible...but I think that in the execution what would happen is that no one would get any decorations except NHQ/Regional Staff.
    PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

    DNall

    First of all, I appreciate your input & look forwrd to further comments so we can hammer this out! Now I may have not been as clear as I wanted to on a couple points, let me try to clear that up.

    Quote from: lordmonar on March 06, 2007, 12:34:31 AM
    First.  If we give the USAF complete control for all of our decorations we have no way to recognize our people who do great work for CAP but nothing on AF missions.
    AF would have control over JUST the 3-8 actual real AF decorations, all the other decs are still CAP controlled via the standard process & are worn after mil dec. That specifically includes all the merit & service ribbons. The only thing AF would give for sure are Aerial Achvmt, AF Trng, and Marksmanship (the last two of those you can get at basic training so not a big deal). The other 5 requested to make avail to CAP inclue two unit awards, the volunteer ribbon you can get for working with CAP, the humanitarian award that you would get if you deployed with a military unit but this covers CAP deployments not too, and the one they may not go for it the Airman's medal, which would become basically the medal of honor for CAP with silver/bronze valor under it. Those are the only ones they'd control & nothing else.

    QuoteSecond.  We would have to deal with the issue of AD military people who get awards on CAP time.  A MSM is worth 5 points on my promotion exam and there is some very specific unofficial (if that is possible) on who rates a particular medal.  SrA snuffy who is also a CAP Capt working on wing staff gets a MSM for doing a great job would be getting a medal he would be completely ineligible for in the USAF....even if he really did the job of a MSgt at a wing/squadron level job. (it's not fair but that is the system we live with).
    I understand where you're coming from & you'll note MSM is not on the list. I don't believe you get points for any of those I listed, maybe the Airman medal, but that'd only be given out in extremely rare cases where it is well deserved.

    QuoteAs for you matrix....there are minor problems I have with it...but something similar can be worked out.

    I would agree that the CAP decoration system be reworked to match the USAF system.  A CAP Achievement Medal, CAP Commendation Medal, Cap Marksman Ribbon etc.  If we go with just USAF medal we would have to go with USAF award criteria...and I can tell you that by USAF standards no one would ever get above a Achievement or Commendation medal.
    90% of the awards are still CAP awards w/ CAP distinctive ribbons that are awarded & controlled by CAP under CAP rules. That said, I would like to have the criteria of the merit medals match that of the AF counterparts & thereby raise the bar.

    QuoteThe marksman award can only be awarded for passing the USAF Qualification Course and CAP is NOT authorized to take that course (you can bend the rule that allow the ROTC familiarization course but I don't think that one counts toward qualification).
    Certainly getting the opportunity to shoot for it is not easy (base & range okay plus instructor), but there is a specific reg authorizing CAP cadets & senior members (along with AFAcad cadets) to shoot for & earn the ribbon (522s are issued). Mike would have to find that reg for you again, he's the one that quoted it.

    QuoteAgain...I understand your push to get us as close to USAF as possible...but I think that in the execution what would happen is that no one would get any decorations except NHQ/Regional Staff.
    Cleaning up the awards process is another thread. Demonsterablly this doesn't change anything about our awards criteria or for large part the awards avail. All it does is consolidate 6-11 awards while realigning things to our version of the AF model.

    DNall

    ahh found it with the handy search function...
    Quote from: MIKE on January 29, 2007, 04:33:13 AM
    Quote from: AFI36-2226 2.3. Handgun Orientation Training. Handgun orientation training may be conducted for United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) Cadets, Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) officer accessions, and possibly Civil Air Patrol (CAP) personnel. This training consists of classroom instruction in general firearms safety, basic operation, and marksmanship fundamentals. After completion of classroom training, students participate in a live-fire session by completing phase II (evaluation) of the handgun Air Force Qualification Course (AFQC). Trainees earn the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR) if they achieve an expert score. This program does not qualify an individual for armed duty. If qualification is required, personnel must meet the full objectives and requirements in AFMAN 36-2227 for the handgun AFQC training program.

    ZigZag911

    Quote from: lordmonar on March 06, 2007, 12:15:52 AM
    Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 05, 2007, 10:43:44 PM
    Leave the ribbons alone:

    1) some people actually EARNED them!
    2) what would we -- or the National Board, for that matter --have left to talk about without them?!?

    Not saying anyone did not earn them....just want to clear up some of the redundant bling.

    Understood, perhaps was not clear....I can see reducing the specialty track badges ,some other badges/patches, all lanyards....agree that cadet officers don't need their Phase 1 & 2 achievement ribbons....

    I really like DNall's suggestion for a CAP Recognition ribbon, something that can be awarded by squadron or group CCs directly.

    RiverAux

    I wouldn't have any major heartburn over the original proposal, but as I don't wear any ribbons, it wouldn't matter to me much.  However, I do strongly support making it easier for CAP members to earn AF awards (after approval by CAP-USAF or whatever structure is set up) for actions in which the AF award is appropriate. 

    I do see it as a little inconsistent to have an ribbon for one specialty track achievement -- the proper solution being to eliminate that one rather than the typical CAP response which might be to give ribbons to all of the specialty tracks...

    Major Carrales

    This is an example of something doesn't need fixing. >:D

    Instead, why not a topic on what would best be the design of a revamped National Webpage? 

    Or, a discussion of what an Incident Commander needs to know to do the job?

    Instead y'all put all sorts of energy into reduing the number of ribbons? :o

    Someone said it right, "wear all, some or none."  I just don't see where a thread like this gets us but a potential flame war. ???
    "We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

    Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
    Commander
    Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
    SWR-TX-454

    Major Carrales

    #24
    And now, Don't y'all take offense.  I don't see it as all that much a deal.
    "We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

    Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
    Commander
    Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
    SWR-TX-454

    DNall

    #25
    ^ thank you, thank you, I'm pleased to be here today to speak to you on behalf of those desiring a professional non-poser looking uniform. Those interested in sharing philosophical & symbolic elements with our parent mainly so it makes sense across the lines, but also for the practical aspect that it breeds. Those that want to take care of our people in the field with lower cost more meaningful items that help improve retention & relationships. Those that want to aid our members serving in the military, and those who think you might be able to recruit a few more cadets if they think they can earn real mil ribbons they can keep when they enlist.

    On behalf of these engaged masses refusing to hide thier heads in the sand, but who insist, as our core values tell us we must, on being involved in wider discussions to take responsibility for & try to improve the big picture regardless of our current place int eh world, I say simply, Joe, seems like everyone is cool, calm, & collected. Seems like the website is fine & ICs know what they're doing. If you want to discuss it thoug there are threads out tehre already for those topics.

    Major Carrales

    Dennis,

    I like your proposal to align it with the USAF.  But, I dont think it will fly.

    I don't know why people have such a fit over the ribbons.  Many have shown in this thread that they are proud they have earned some of this.

    I just say leave it as it is...
    "We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

    Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
    Commander
    Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
    SWR-TX-454

    Major Carrales

    Quote from: DNall on March 06, 2007, 05:39:34 AM
    SOS over here says it's a core values violations to keep your head down & just do your job, rather than being up & involved in bigger disucssions outside your little patch of dirt, and that it dooms the org to failure if you act like that.

    WOW!!!  Ribbon and unifrom discussion constitutes "bigger disucssions outside [my] little patch of dirt" ;D

    Just kidding...

    In anycase, there has been so much incredulous talk about how lots was wasted during the life stream en re uniforms and now many of the same that lambasted the ideas (or at leasted commented) are trying to support more uniform meshgas here.

    Quote from: DNall on March 06, 2007, 05:39:34 AM

    The national website is fine, ICs knwo their jobs as they exist today, & there's threads for that stuff already.

    I imagine then that I shall not read any commentary on these issues from you in the future then?
    "We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

    Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
    Commander
    Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
    SWR-TX-454

    DNall

    You mean you don't think AF would approve it? They aren't actually granting anything. These were created by Pres/Congress/AF to be awarded to both mil & civilians, and they are given to civilians all the time. The issue is the recommendation process is complex & the SAF has to approve every request, all of which have to be processed by Air Staff. That's crazy, especially considering the amount of work we do in uniform at AF orders. What this does is spell out & streamline that process to standardize w/ the ay AF does it. They are still in total control over the process, only now it's less work for the people at the top that are busy with things other than CAP.

    Or if you mean in general that the whole matrix wouldn't be approved... well I don't know. It's not easy to take away bling in this org, but if there's a payoff & it makes sense (and is cheap) then I don't think it's so out of reach. Who would have thought a coupe years ago that we'd have a corporate service dress using real AF grade slides?

    You wanna talk about the website or ICs, there's other threads. NIMS is a concern but not nearly as big for mission staff as the operational specialties. I don;t think there's anything really wrong with the website, but apparently a new appearance (not function) is in the works - who cares. eServices is jacked, especially everything related to ES & the fractured training format. That loses us members & needs to be fixed. They got a full-time staff that does nothing but that, and still no joy. You want to talk about putting a strong leader over them to make it get fixed, or you want someone fired? Like I said, other threads.

    Major Carrales

    These changes, while I think logical (as you mention established bythe President, Congress, USAF et al) I don't think it will happen.  Look at the reaction to the US CIVIL AIR PATROL Nametape...

    Such a move would only be another uniform change requiring more purchases and negating the value and purchase of the ribbons and racks.  Plus, is one now, after having been awarded the existing ribbons in the fanfare and pomp of the CAP meeting sometimes by loved ones or dignatries, merely to disguard it as a worthless piece of fabric?

    Allowing one to wear these out would defeat the purpose of Ribbon reduction.

    I say leave it as it is...it is not a major problem. 

    Yes, those other things are other thread's subjects...but the time in those other threads outlining criteria for ICs or new WEBSITE ideas for National woudl better yeild a proposal for a mission related issue.  This is only creating undo and unneeded debate on issues that do not warrant this level of disussion.

    "We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

    Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
    Commander
    Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
    SWR-TX-454

    Robert Hartigan

    If you work on a project that is not necessary and no one else believes in I bet you can get a ribbon? :D ;D :angel:
    <><><>#996
    GRW   #2717

    DNall

    Anyway, the ribbons have been changed a few times in hour history. We still have the Falcon & upside down GRW approved from the last change, there were cartoons off before that, and plastic before that. It's part of evolution.

    I'm not looking to create a bunch of new ribbons. The ones we have now would still be used, even if the names are changed in some cases. There are four new ones & 18 being cut - pick which four to reuse as the new awards. Your total cost for a standard rack might be 5-10 bucks. The bulk of the change is to consolidate frivolous stuff. I'll make a chart with pix if it helps.

    SAR-EMT1

    Interested on a proposal to allow us to have the AF ribbons available for issue to CAP. It would be nice to put the Training Ribbon on my rack when I complete SOS. - And Id be fine with taking off- recruiter, encampment, etc. for the privilege.   
    Id cut my rack to- Level 1, Level 3, Yeager, Lifesaving and the AF Training Ribbon
    I don't need extraneous bling -recruiter, encampment- to feel important, but Id be proud to show off the ones that mean something- Yeager, Lifesaving Training etc..
    C. A. Edgar
    AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
    Former CC / GLR-IL-328
    Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

    DNall

    Okay, here's the chart of what I proposed: CHART

    The ribbons that used to cover the new awards are as best as possible selected to be similiar in appearance to the equiv AF decoration. Don't read too much into that though, it's just an example.

    Note, I don't care what the deal is with recruiting. I agree it should be the same ribbon. There's good logic to it being hte same standard. The only issue is it should be quite easy for cadets to earn the initial award. On the other hand I really think adults should be out doing presentations & such, and over a period of years should recruit lots of people. Whatever the standard, that's up to yall, just so it's the same ribbon.

    Hammer

    Quote from: ddelaney103 on March 05, 2007, 07:54:59 PM

    Kinda like the days when they started the AF NCO PME ribbon.  Originally, NCO's had a choice to go in person or by correspondence so they offered a ribbon to encourage in person PME.  Nowadays, in residence PME is mandatory so, except for the Reserve and Guard and a few AD types who got waivers, everyone gets the ribbon.

    Can Military Officers still take SOS, ACSC, and AWC via correspondence?

    Hawk200

    Quote from: Hammer on March 06, 2007, 03:41:27 PM
    Can Military Officers still take SOS, ACSC, and AWC via correspondence?

    Yes. Those are available from the AFIADL website: http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afiadl/

    Click on "Catalogs", then "Professional Military Education (PME)".

    Hawk200

    Quote from: Major Carrales on March 06, 2007, 05:01:49 AM
    This is an example of something doesn't need fixing. >:D

    Instead, why not a topic on what would best be the design of a revamped National Webpage? 

    Or, a discussion of what an Incident Commander needs to know to do the job?

    Instead y'all put all sorts of energy into reduing the number of ribbons? :o

    Someone said it right, "wear all, some or none."  I just don't see where a thread like this gets us but a potential flame war. ???

    I must say, Major, that I'm a little confused. When suggestions are made to add something else to our uniforms, you oppose it with the argument of "Don't make anything more that I have to buy." But when a suggestion that would actually reduce what you have to buy, you oppose that as well.

    Do you wish to have less or not? Your responses are less than consistent. And addressing issues on the operations of CAP, the National Webpage isn't anything that would really provide any effect to our missions. Not to mention, it wasn't applicable to this thread. It does apply somewhere, but not here.

    As far "flame wars", calling anything presented by someone else an "example of something that doesn't need fixing" is instigating the very war that you claim to want to  avoid.

    And when it comes to professional appearance, if it is wanted, something must be sacrificed, changes must be accepted. To call for change, and then balk when they are suggested is very disengenuous.

    BillB

    Can Military Officers still take SOS, ACSC, and AWC via correspondence?

    You may find that as a CAP Officer you are eligible to take a course that a military officer can't due to grade requirements.  For example, a CAP Captain can take SOS where a USAF 2 Lt can't.  I've seen cases where a CAP officer who was also an AD USAF officer could take a course that he was not eligible for as a USAF officer. But after completing it as a CAP officer, the certificate of completion was placed in his USAF personal  file as well as the CAP file.
    Gil Robb Wilson # 19
    Gil Robb Wilson # 104

    DNall

    So No reax on the CHART yet? That's suprising, I spent a few minutes on that & thought it was a good representation to push forward into does that matrix seem logic & benefitial, and what else if anything needs to be on the list. Is there a place for campaign medals (05 huricane season for instance), that kinda thing.

    FYI, I don't want to speak for Mike, but I believe he had a similiar idea about utilizing AF decs where possible & filling in the rest w/ CAP decs as appropriate... however he wanted to redesign a lot of ribbons to be recognizably similiar to the AF equiv, but still clearly distinctive. Example:

    DNall

    Quote from: BillB on March 06, 2007, 08:20:21 PM
    Can Military Officers still take SOS, ACSC, and AWC via correspondence?

    You may find that as a CAP Officer you are eligible to take a course that a military officer can't due to grade requirements.  For example, a CAP Captain can take SOS where a USAF 2 Lt can't.  I've seen cases where a CAP officer who was also an AD USAF officer could take a course that he was not eligible for as a USAF officer. But after completing it as a CAP officer, the certificate of completion was placed in his USAF personal  file as well as the CAP file.
    Which is really good advice for a cadet going officer to stay on as a SM. You have ACSC & AWC done, and bonus points in your evals for helping out w/ CAP... that all looks real good to a promotion board. Makes you look, motivated, dedicated, well educated, on top of your game. You do your job competently outside of that & you should be in great shape.

    MIKE

    Quote from: DNall on March 06, 2007, 08:25:57 PM
    FYI, I don't want to speak for Mike, but I believe he had a similiar idea about utilizing AF decs where possible & filling in the rest w/ CAP decs as appropriate... however he wanted to redesign a lot of ribbons to be recognizably similiar to the AF equiv, but still clearly distinctive.

    I'm going more for all CAP distinctive versions.  I don't want to assume that we will be authorized the actual USAF awards.  I'm playing with a chart at the moment.

    Mike Johnston

    DNall

    okay. Far as the AF, the Air Medal, Aerial Achvmt Medal, and apparently the marksmanship are not in question at all. The others require clarification to staty they can be awarded to CAP, which following the marksmanship path there is precednece for, and while citing CGAux as an example & pitching it as a streamlining of the process off top leaders down mostly to CAP-USAF... I think it's got a really great shot at getting thru actually.

    Far as what goes in the CAP matrix & what they look like, I look forward to your offering. If you want me to shop up some ribbons, let me know.

    arajca

    If you want really big pics (10+Mb each) of what Vanguard has for ribbons, let me know. They're the same as the ones available on their website, but much higher quality.

    Major Carrales

    Quote from: Hawk200 on March 06, 2007, 04:42:46 PM

    I must say, Major, that I'm a little confused. When suggestions are made to add something else to our uniforms, you oppose it with the argument of "Don't make anything more that I have to buy." But when a suggestion that would actually reduce what you have to buy, you oppose that as well.


    The only thing worse than having to buy more stuff, my observant friend, is making the stuff I have already bought moot (basically turning it into garbage) and them making me purchase new "colsolidated" things.

    My point is, maintain the status quo.  Most people don't wear ribbons on their AF style shirts and the is rarely need to wear them then mandated on teh service coat (being that service dress is seldom the norm".

    I can't see how it effect how "professional" we look to other organizations at a mission when we don't, with the exception of Clergy and PAOs (if at all) wear them at missions?

    Let people have their ceremonial stuff.  I mean, in the Knights of Columbus we use swords, plumes and capes for ceremonial work...but a Spatan blue vest when selling items at Bingo or the like.  All things in their place.
    "We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

    Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
    Commander
    Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
    SWR-TX-454

    DNall

    Joe, again I think we're all talking abou tusing ribbons that already exist, not so much creating new ones. However, ribbons cost 80 cents a piece, and holders a couple bucks. It's not a great personal tragedy.

    The status quo implies what we have is okay. The contention of several in this discussion is fi you give ribbons for every little thing then it cheapens the important ones & makes us all look fake.

    The professional appearance to outsiders has nothing to do with missions, it has to do with AF personnel seeing your uniform & recognizing that you've done something worthwhile for the country & the AF, rather than assuming that like JROTC you get ribbons for bakes sales & activities. The ceremonial stuff only is only meaningful if it's done right. And ot follow your KC example, even though you don't wear that stuff often, that bit of ceremony pomo & circumstance defines your shared identity, which then causes you to show up & put on the vest to help out. The uniforms & decorations aren't the whole thing, but they're a meaningful part of it.

    MIKE

    #45
    Here's my list.  I'm only addressing awards that compare to USAF awards.  Still needs work.  For some of the decorations I tried to show them in relation to the existing CAP decorations, but they aren't necessarily equivalent to each other.

    Mike Johnston

    ColonelJack

    Quote from: DNall on March 06, 2007, 10:46:42 PM
    The contention of several in this discussion is fi you give ribbons for every little thing then it cheapens the important ones & makes us all look fake.

    You mean sort of like when the Air Force hands out ribbons for just about everything, right?  Like finishing BMT ... or shooting expert ... or just being in for a while ... or going overseas long tour ... or going overseas short tour ... etc., etc., etc.

    Dennis, I like you ... you've got some good ideas, ones I'd like to see fully fleshed out and brought to fruition.  (You also have some real clunkers, in my never-to-be-humble opinion, but don't we all??)   But sometimes you and others take up a cudgel that doesn't need to be bothered.  With all respect to those who started the thread (and I mean that sincerely, as I do in fact respect you), this is a solution that's trying to find a problem.  We may have a lot of ribbons ... I don't know how you'd define "a lot" but I'll concede that point.  The "real" military (TM) has a lot more.  Some of them are given for some of the silliest reasons, too.  I would support a move to reduce/consolidate our ribbons when the AF stops handing out bling like candy. 

    Jack
    Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
    Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
    Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
    Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
    Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

    DNall

    There are a few ribons in the military that aren't difficult to earn, and there are a few in all the proposals here that aren't that difficult either (plus some of those same AF decs). The big area where stuff is being cut is 6 dif types of activity ribbon, 4 dif types of operational service ribbon, and stuff that is already indicated in other ways (iie crossfield & badge, CC ribbon & badge) It's not that much, just a little cleanup. Then at the end of it you can do limited run campaign ribbons for significant events that involve lots of people, rather than mission types.

    Mike, I like most of it. Think we can slam a lot of ideas here together & come up with some good stuff.

    MIKE

    #48
    Quote from: DNall on March 07, 2007, 04:31:40 AM
    Mike, I like most of it. Think we can slam a lot of ideas here together & come up with some good stuff.

    Added DFC, because it can be awarded in peacetime... Air Medal edited appropriately.

    Edit: Added criteria for CAPOUA and CAPOEA
    Mike Johnston

    arajca

    How are you deciding which ones have medals and which ones don't?

    Also, labeling the columns would help.

    MIKE

    Quote from: arajca on March 07, 2007, 05:39:40 PM
    How are you deciding which ones have medals and which ones don't?

    Comparative Air Force awards.
    Mike Johnston

    Hawk200

    Quote from: DNall on March 06, 2007, 10:46:42 PMThe status quo implies what we have is okay. The contention of several in this discussion is fi you give ribbons for every little thing then it cheapens the important ones & makes us all look fake.

    The professional appearance to outsiders has nothing to do with missions, it has to do with AF personnel seeing your uniform & recognizing that you've done something worthwhile for the country & the AF, rather than assuming that like JROTC you get ribbons for bakes sales & activities. The ceremonial stuff only is only meaningful if it's done right. ...The uniforms & decorations aren't the whole thing, but they're a meaningful part of it.

    Wish I could have put it so succinctly. Especially when addressing professional appearance, and valid recognition of accomplishments. Some of these awards recognize things you're supposed to be doing. Recognition is for over and above the bare minimums. It doesn't even have to be drastically over and above, just noticeably so.

    Hawk200

    Quote from: ColonelJack on March 07, 2007, 12:32:42 AMYou mean sort of like when the Air Force hands out ribbons for just about everything, right?  Like finishing BMT...

    I'll agree on that one. Ditching the BMT ribbon was far more reasonable than eliminating a medal. But they did.

    Quote... or shooting expert

    Getting the impression that you don't have any military experience, otherwise you'd know that every branch of military service recognizes expert marksmanship. BTW, that means you went well above the minimum standards of marksmanship.

    Quote... or just being in for a while...

    Agreed. It could be argued that it's part of your military "resume", but it's not a concept I personally subscribe to.

    Quote...or going overseas long tour ... or going overseas short tour ...

    Part of the mlitary resume thing there. It's important to know some things. You can figure out how long a guy/gal has been in from reading in their rack, so a longevity ribbon isn't really important.

    QuoteDennis, I like you ... you've got some good ideas, ones I'd like to see fully fleshed out and brought to fruition.  (You also have some real clunkers, in my never-to-be-humble opinion, but don't we all??)   But sometimes you and others take up a cudgel that doesn't need to be bothered With all respect to those who started the thread (and I mean that sincerely, as I do in fact respect you), this is a solution that's trying to find a problem.  We may have a lot of ribbons ... I don't know how you'd define "a lot" but I'll concede that point.  The "real" military (TM) has a lot more.  Some of them are given for some of the silliest reasons, too.  I would support a move to reduce/consolidate our ribbons when the AF stops handing out bling like candy. 

    ColonelJack, this bluntness is probably going to make me unpopular, but I've seen your posts becoming increasingly rude and arrogant. And some of your ignorance of the miltary does not support your arguments. If you have been military in the past, it appears you have forgotten the experience.

    There may be a few decs that have less meaning than others in the military, but drawing a comparison between Air Force decs and CAP decs is ignorant in the extreme. In most cases, a CAP member can have twice as many decs in the same time as an Air Force member. And in most cases, those CAP decs have far less effort required to earn.

    And for future reference, telling someone you respect them, and then telling them that their post isn't of value (such as "this is a solution that's trying to find a problem") is a lie. You may not agree, but it is viewed that way.

    Hawk200

    Back to the original thread. If anyone has any additional things that they feel would be best served in addition to the original concept, post them.

    To the naysayers, you've been heard. Say you disagree, preferably in a brief manner, then please move on.

    ColonelJack

    Quote from: Hawk200 on March 07, 2007, 06:48:02 PM
    Quote from: ColonelJack on March 07, 2007, 12:32:42 AM... or shooting expert

    Getting the impression that you don't have any military experience, otherwise you'd know that every branch of military service recognizes expert marksmanship. BTW, that means you went well above the minimum standards of marksmanship. 

    Sorry for the misleading statements ... I actually earned one of those expert marksman ribbons I mentioned back in '75.  I do have military experience and am aware that all branches recognize expert marskmanship.  That inclusion was an error on my part.

    Quote... or just being in for a while...

    Agreed. It could be argued that it's part of your military "resume", but it's not a concept I personally subscribe to.

    ...or going overseas long tour ... or going overseas short tour ...

    Part of the mlitary resume thing there. It's important to know some things. You can figure out how long a guy/gal has been in from reading in their rack, so a longevity ribbon isn't really important.

    ColonelJack, this bluntness is probably going to make me unpopular, but I've seen your posts becoming increasingly rude and arrogant. And some of your ignorance of the miltary does not support your arguments. If you have been military in the past, it appears you have forgotten the experience.

    Hawk200, it is never my intention to be rude or arrogant.  And I apologize to you and to all here if my words have been coming across that way.  Calling me on that would not make you unpopular with me ... as I say to those who review what I write for publication, "Nice comments make me feel good; honest ones make me a better writer."  If I'm coming across in a way I don't intend to, I need to be told this, so I can make sure it doesn't happen again.  Far from being angry or upset, I'm grateful to you for pointing this out to me.

    I've not forgotten one moment of my time in the Air Force; in fact, I find myself drawing on the experiences even now, some 30 years after I went back to civlilan life.  While like many I'd love to see a closer relationship between CAP and the AF, I simply state my position based on what I see happening now, not the way I'd like for it to be.   Just because it was a certain way 30 years ago (when wearing the blue suit was what I did for a living), that doesn't mean it was the right way to do it then -- or now.  These are my opinions, of course, free ... and worth what they cost.


    Quote
    There may be a few decs that have less meaning than others in the military, but drawing a comparison between Air Force decs and CAP decs is ignorant in the extreme. In most cases, a CAP member can have twice as many decs in the same time as an Air Force member. And in most cases, those CAP decs have far less effort required to earn.

    My friend, I am not the one comparing CAP awards to Air Force awards.  (Though the chart that is doing so is quite well researched and may actually help change my way of thinking on this issue.  I am open to change.)  I'm simply saying that just as there are several AF decs that are no harder to earn than showing up ... so are there many CAP ones earned the same way.  That's all I said, though I may not have been as clear as I could have been in saying so.

    Quote
    And for future reference, telling someone you respect them, and then telling them that their post isn't of value (such as "this is a solution that's trying to find a problem") is a lie. You may not agree, but it is viewed that way.

    Rebuke earned, deserved, and accepted.  I should have said, "In my opinion, this is a solution in search of a problem, but you are doing some hard work" and recognized the effort that is going into the idea.  I may not agree with it -- heck, I don't -- but I can appreciate what is being discussed and offered. 

    There are indeed times I should keep my mouth shut. 

    Jack
    Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
    Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
    Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
    Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
    Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

    arajca

    Quote from: DNall on March 05, 2007, 11:42:46 PM
    CADETS:
    In general I say leave them alone. They're 12, they need regular ego boosts to retain their attention & dedication. It's no different than JROTC. Couple exceptions though:
    1) Concur with combining the recruiting ribbons. Award standards don't necessarily have to be the same (particularly for subsequent devices), but the ribbon can.
    2) C/Officers should cut the achievements to milestons only & wear some/none/all.
    3) I can concur with consolidating to one activity ribbon, and clasps for additional activities (not repeat of the same one).
    On 2), I agree the "all, some, or none" option needs to come back, but I disagree on prohibiting cadet officers from wearing their achievement ribbons. That's what caused the "some" option to be lost for cadets.

    QuoteADULTS:
    snip
    Above awards explained:
    Mission Action Medal:
    Takes the place of SaR, DR, HLS, CN, O-pilot, & find; like the Air Medal, it can be awarded for single acts of courage in mission performance (designated w/ "V") or for sorties like the current range of ribbons.

    CAP Unit Citation: Is what it is now & less important than the two higher AF unit awards
    Like the idea.

    QuoteMission Readiness: Continuous Maint of ES qual as mission pilot/observer, GTL, or higher over a 3 year period. Also requires active in ES, not just on paper. Additional award for each three year period.
    What about all the support personnel? IC, Section chiefs, MRO, CUL, etc?

    QuoteOutstanding Officer "of the year" award ribbon: For selection as Wg/Reg/Nat officer of teh year within a designated specialty. Ribbon for Wg, triangle/oak leaf for Reg, stars for Nat, no multiple awards in the same year from dif echelons.
    It's be a nice thing.

    QuoteCAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size - under 20 active adults = 1 award, under 50=2, under 75=3, under 100=4. This is basically the internal Sq or Gp member of the year award.
    You need to count cadets as well as seniors, unless you plan to make this a senior only award.

    QuoteAE Instructor = Yeager, bronze prop for instructor course, silver prop for crossfield

    Activities = Takes the place of five ribbons, can be awarded for designated Wg/Reg events (encampment, CAC, RCLS, Flight Academies) with triangle (or oak leaf) devices for additional awards; also awarded for national level activities (IACE, NCSA, NCC, NCGC, etc), additional awards designated by stars. This should be awarded to distinguished participants only, not everyone, and should not repeat for similiar actions (2nd round as encampment director).
    Looks ok.

    QuoteRecruiting Service: One ribbon for cadets & adults, but dif standards. The adult ribbon requires tech in recuiting track in addition to recruiting 10 new members. Bronze & silver star designate Sr & master rating, Enamel CAP seal for mess dress my be worn as pocket device (w/ attachment device) while actively assigned as a recruiting & retention officer at any echelon. Cloth seal like we used to wear on flight suits can be worn in this location on BDU/BBDU.
    Having different standards for cadets and seniors for the same award doesn't make sense to me. How do handle the cadet who receives this award for meeting the minimum cadet requirements when they turn senior? Do they lose the award?

    Requiring the tech rating for the ribbon doesn't seem right. There are many members who will meet the number requirements for bringing in new members, but for various reasons, not meet the tech requirements.

    QuoteProfessional Development: I'm willing to conceed that the GRW stay in place, but Lvl I-IV would be designated on a single ribbon with devices for each level.
    I can agree with that.

    DNall

    Quote from: arajca on March 07, 2007, 09:53:47 PM
    Quote from: DNall on March 05, 2007, 11:42:46 PM
    Mission Readiness: Continuous Maint of ES qual as mission pilot/observer, GTL, or higher over a 3 year period. Also requires active in ES, not just on paper. Additional award for each three year period.
    What about all the support personnel? IC, Section chiefs, MRO, CUL, etc?
    The AF equiv says 24months continuous combat readiness as aircrew on a combat aircraft. Hence, I've excluded scanner, GTM, UDF, TMP, MRO, IC, etc. It's for maintaining field supervisory quals over the long hual. That incentivizes IC staff maintaining quals rather than trying to lead based on their field knowledge from 1975. I'm open minded about CUL though.

    Quote
    QuoteCAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size...
    You need to count cadets as well as seniors, unless you plan to make this a senior only award.
    I'm fine with cadets getting it, but the same standards should be applied regardless of the person performing the action, not easier for cadets & harder for LtCols. And it should not be something tossed around like candy, just cause it can be awarded at the Sq/Gp level.



    QuoteRecruiting Service: One ribbon for cadets & adults, but dif standards. The adult ribbon requires tech in recuiting track in addition to recruiting 10 new members. Bronze & silver star designate Sr & master rating, Enamel CAP seal for mess dress my be worn as pocket device (w/ attachment device) while actively assigned as a recruiting & retention officer at any echelon. Cloth seal like we used to wear on flight suits can be worn in this location on BDU/BBDU.
    Having different standards for cadets and seniors for the same award doesn't make sense to me. How do handle the cadet who receives this award for meeting the minimum cadet requirements when they turn senior? Do they lose the award?

    Requiring the tech rating for the ribbon doesn't seem right. There are many members who will meet the number requirements for bringing in new members, but for various reasons, not meet the tech requirements.[/quote]
    I'm least decisive about the recruiting ribbon issues. I do think cadets should have an incentive to bring a couple people in, they are easily amused. For adults though, that's part of the gig. As far as it coming off when you go Sr, yes it would, right along with all your lower achievements, activity ribbons, model rocketry badge, solo wings, etc. Just like you don't keep JROTC ribbons when you go to college ROTC, and don't take college ribbons to the military with you. You need one ribbon (highest achievement) to show you were once a cadet, and that's it. The valor, merit, & mission awards stay, cause you earned those same as everyone else.

    Hammer

    Quote from: BillB on March 06, 2007, 08:20:21 PM
    Can Military Officers still take SOS, ACSC, and AWC via correspondence?

    You may find that as a CAP Officer you are eligible to take a course that a military officer can't due to grade requirements.  For example, a CAP Captain can take SOS where a USAF 2 Lt can't.  I've seen cases where a CAP officer who was also an AD USAF officer could take a course that he was not eligible for as a USAF officer. But after completing it as a CAP officer, the certificate of completion was placed in his USAF personal  file as well as the CAP file.

    So if that CAP SM/USAF Officer takes said course, will it still count as his SOS/ACSC/AWC?

    Hammer

    I think just add a "CAP Unit Commanders' Achievement Ribbon/Medal" and be done with it.  Let the Sq/CC be the awarding dude.  Let all unit commandwers be the person who awards it.  Either that or change the Commanders Commendation to be awarded by unit commanders.

    DNall

    Quote from: Hammer on March 08, 2007, 01:37:51 AM
    So if that CAP SM/USAF Officer takes said course, will it still count as his SOS/ACSC/AWC?
    Yes of course, and joint PME credit if you are in another service. And a good way to get ahead too. It does check off the requirement box. You could still be offered a chance to go to the in-res later, especially if its been a while. SOS is the most dif from the in-res, & the eval that happens there is very inmportant to your future. ACSC & AWC are a lot closer in terms of content, but there is a dynamic in person with the extra resources at hand that you don't get, and of course selection is very competitive. Regardless, this is an opportunity you should use in such a situation cause it will really help you out down the road.

    Quote from: Hammer on March 08, 2007, 01:45:49 AM
    I think just add a "CAP Unit Commanders' Achievement Ribbon/Medal" and be done with it.  Let the Sq/CC be the awarding dude.  Let all unit commandwers be the person who awards it.  Either that or change the Commanders Commendation to be awarded by unit commanders.
    Can we call it a CAP recognition ribbon? Though misnamed, the current CAP merit decs are basically right, just the one on bottom is missing, and that's the one that owuld be real helpful to encourage local performance.

    That individual issue was going on in a seperate discussion a while back & is just getting tied in here with a big picture view.

    lordmonar

    Quote from: DNall on March 08, 2007, 01:31:01 AM
    Quote from: arajca on March 07, 2007, 09:53:47 PM
    Quote from: DNall on March 05, 2007, 11:42:46 PM
    Mission Readiness: Continuous Maint of ES qual as mission pilot/observer, GTL, or higher over a 3 year period. Also requires active in ES, not just on paper. Additional award for each three year period.
    What about all the support personnel? IC, Section chiefs, MRO, CUL, etc?
    The AF equiv says 24months continuous combat readiness as aircrew on a combat aircraft. Hence, I've excluded scanner, GTM, UDF, TMP, MRO, IC, etc. It's for maintaining field supervisory quals over the long hual. That incentivizes IC staff maintaining quals rather than trying to lead based on their field knowledge from 1975. I'm open minded about CUL though.

    If you look at the Air Force regs youwill see that it says "weapon system".  The Combat Readiness Medal was created to give to the NUKE boys and girls.  So it was awarded to anyone who worked the nuclear deterence force as a "combat crew member".  This included the missle launch officers/NCOs, the bomber crews, command post personnel and communications operators.

    When ACC absorbed SAC they expanded it to include ANY weapon system and the support personnel who operate those systems.  A AN/TRC-100A Tactical Satellite Terminal is considered part of the the command and control weapon system.

    That is how I got my Combat Readiness Medal.  So by using that criteria....anyone who holds any ES position for 24 months should receive your new mission ready medal.

    Also...it is slap in the face when you allow it for the top dogs and not the little guys.
    Sure it is important to encourage people to "move up the ladder" of skill and responsibilty, but you disrespect those GTM3s, MROs, MSAs and all the others who do not make your cut.  The Air Force does not care what or how you support the weapon system....only that you in fact supported it.....heck our supply and admin guys got it!

    Every job at the mission base is important fromt he MSA to the IC.

    Quote
    QuoteCAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size...
    You need to count cadets as well as seniors, unless you plan to make this a senior only award.
    I'm fine with cadets getting it, but the same standards should be applied regardless of the person performing the action, not easier for cadets & harder for LtCols. And it should not be something tossed around like candy, just cause it can be awarded at the Sq/Gp level.



    QuoteRecruiting Service: One ribbon for cadets & adults, but dif standards. The adult ribbon requires tech in recuiting track in addition to recruiting 10 new members. Bronze & silver star designate Sr & master rating, Enamel CAP seal for mess dress my be worn as pocket device (w/ attachment device) while actively assigned as a recruiting & retention officer at any echelon. Cloth seal like we used to wear on flight suits can be worn in this location on BDU/BBDU.
    Having different standards for cadets and seniors for the same award doesn't make sense to me. How do handle the cadet who receives this award for meeting the minimum cadet requirements when they turn senior? Do they lose the award?

    Requiring the tech rating for the ribbon doesn't seem right. There are many members who will meet the number requirements for bringing in new members, but for various reasons, not meet the tech requirements.[/quote]
    I'm least decisive about the recruiting ribbon issues. I do think cadets should have an incentive to bring a couple people in, they are easily amused. For adults though, that's part of the gig. As far as it coming off when you go Sr, yes it would, right along with all your lower achievements, activity ribbons, model rocketry badge, solo wings, etc. Just like you don't keep JROTC ribbons when you go to college ROTC, and don't take college ribbons to the military with you. You need one ribbon (highest achievement) to show you were once a cadet, and that's it. The valor, merit, & mission awards stay, cause you earned those same as everyone else.
    [/quote]
    PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

    Hawk200

    Quote from: ColonelJack on March 07, 2007, 09:24:55 PMRebuke earned, deserved, and accepted.  I should have said, "In my opinion, this is a solution in search of a problem, but you are doing some hard work" and recognized the effort that is going into the idea.  I may not agree with it -- heck, I don't -- but I can appreciate what is being discussed and offered. 

    There are indeed times I should keep my mouth shut. 

    The "in my opinion" part is the most pertinent point. Many people don't realize how it can be a little disconcerting when there is the appearance of someone saying "This idea is worthless, you shouldn't have brought it up." A statement of "I don't think this is really important" is a far different statement that doesn't have that kind of impact.

    I am glad that you actually saw my post in the nature it was intended. I apologize for being harsh, but when I am subtle, I can't seem to get my point across. Maybe I'm overly diplomatic or just don't communicate well in a subtle manner, I don't know.

    Hawk200

    Quote from: DNall on March 05, 2007, 11:42:46 PM
    CAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size - under 20 active adults = 1 award, under 50=2, under 75=3, under 100=4. This is basically the internal Sq or Gp member of the year award.

    If the intention is to draw paralells between CAP and Air Force ribbons is to be included, shouldn't we have similar requirements? The Air Force recognition ribbon is awarded for much higher than Sq or Gp. An excerpt from AFI 36-2803:

    "Award to named individual recipients of Air Force-level special trophies and awards.  Refer to AFI 36-2805, Special Trophies and Awards, regarding awards eligible for the ribbon."

    This is much higher than the levels mentioned. If we want to tell people that the CAP recognition ribbon is the CAP equivalent to an Air Force Recognition ribbon, don't we need to up the level a bit?

    ColonelJack

    Quote from: Hawk200 on March 08, 2007, 04:33:18 PM
    [I am glad that you actually saw my post in the nature it was intended. I apologize for being harsh, but when I am subtle, I can't seem to get my point across. Maybe I'm overly diplomatic or just don't communicate well in a subtle manner, I don't know.

    No worries, my friend.  Should we ever meet, the first round's on me.

    Jack
    Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
    Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
    Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
    Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
    Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

    Hawk200

    Quote from: ColonelJack on March 08, 2007, 05:56:38 PM
    Quote from: Hawk200 on March 08, 2007, 04:33:18 PM
    [I am glad that you actually saw my post in the nature it was intended. I apologize for being harsh, but when I am subtle, I can't seem to get my point across. Maybe I'm overly diplomatic or just don't communicate well in a subtle manner, I don't know.

    No worries, my friend.  Should we ever meet, the first round's on me.

    Jack

    As long as good food is involved, I can go for that.  :) A good beer is best accompanied by a good steak.

    DNall

    Quote from: lordmonar on March 08, 2007, 06:45:35 AM
    Also...it is slap in the face when you allow it for the top dogs and not the little guys.
    Sure it is important to encourage people to "move up the ladder" of skill and responsibilty, but you disrespect those GTM3s, MROs, MSAs and all the others who do not make your cut.  The Air Force does not care what or how you support the weapon system....only that you in fact supported it.....heck our supply and admin guys got it!
    I'm not cppying directly the AF standard. I'm taking their dec & what it's about then asking what similiar thing should there be in CAP & what should it cover.

    The idea behind the standard I gave is that this not be a gimmie ribbon. I think you can agree GES doesn't count. Scanner, MRO, GTM3, MSA are all training positions. None of them is really capable of operating on their own. I could be convinced to include GTM 1 or MAYBE 2, but not 3, and frankly I think all of that is going to change with the NIMS stuff so I'm not worried about arguing the semantics. This isn't supposed to be complicatd to earn, but it is supposed to recoignize advanced or supervisory field skills maintained over the long term. It incentivizes reaching for the higher more useful rating, and the older hands maintaining their skills, even if they've converted to staff. Just my thoughts, it's debatable.

    Quote from: Hawk200 on March 08, 2007, 04:45:41 PM
    Quote from: DNall on March 05, 2007, 11:42:46 PM
    CAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size... This is basically the internal Sq or Gp member of the year award.

    If the intention is to draw paralells between CAP and Air Force ribbons is to be included, shouldn't we have similar requirements? The Air Force recognition ribbon is awarded for much higher than Sq or Gp. An excerpt from AFI 36-2803:

    "Award to named individual recipients of Air Force-level special trophies and awards.  Refer to AFI 36-2805, Special Trophies and Awards, regarding awards eligible for the ribbon."

    This is much higher than the levels mentioned. If we want to tell people that the CAP recognition ribbon is the CAP equivalent to an Air Force Recognition ribbon, don't we need to up the level a bit?
    We have in the matrix a CAP "officer of the year" award which covers stuff like wing safety officer of the year, region PAO of the year, National senior member of the year.

    Beyond that, yet it could be debated. The problem is the way our current merit awards are abused. When every level above Sq exists to support local operations, and what we really need is a way to pat people on the back & bump up their morale for the important things they do inside the Sq & Gp. Running a flashy Wg activity is nice, but it happens over a wknd & impacts a limited number of people in a limited way over that timespan. Take care of the field is that point.

    If you want to reserve a CAP recognition ribbon to mean all those of the year awards, and the CAP officer of the year ribbon for just SM of the year at Wg, Reg, Nat. then that's fine, I can go along with that IF you can also come up with a system to make the current merit awards more fairly awarded across the spectrum & better available to aid local operations. Otherwise I don't think this is too much of a corrumption.

    lordmonar

    Quote from: DNall on March 08, 2007, 07:14:50 PM
    I'm not cppying directly the AF standard. I'm taking their dec & what it's about then asking what similiar thing should there be in CAP & what should it cover.

    The idea behind the standard I gave is that this not be a gimmie ribbon. I think you can agree GES doesn't count. Scanner, MRO, GTM3, MSA are all training positions. None of them is really capable of operating on their own.

    Wrong.  They are not trainee positions they are just worker bee positions.  No one is capable of operating on their own.  Even the IC is operating under the supervision of the wing commander.

    MRO, GTM3 and MSA are all entry level positions and if you successful maintain your currancy for the required times you should get the same dinger as the "higher" positions.

    You are begining to work against yourself here.  I though the idea was to more directly align CAP awards and ribbons with USAF.  Ergo if you start saying that this job is cool but  not this one...where the USAF does not.....then you are breaking the two apart and we should just go off on our own and make up our own ribbons.

    PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

    DNall

    I'm not trying to copy the AF, I'm trying to use them as a guide to a starting point from which you determine what to do on the CAP side. You have to ask if a dec is necessary, what it promotes, is it meaningful based on the award level, etc.

    A cadet can get GTM3 qual'd in one day, GTM2 in a wknd, and never touch it again for three years & you think that warrants a ribbon? When I say capable of operating alone, I mean individually competent to do the job w/o constant supervision. This is not supposed to eb a ribbon you should see on many cadets. It should take four years to earn the first one (full qual & then three years holding it, CC's discretion on active in ES), then a clasp for each additional three years.

    You might talk me into opening it up, the idea is that it kind of fills the whle where teh SaR ribbon was, but covers everything & represents training/readiness now that missions have dropped off.

    Hammer

    Quote from: DNall on March 08, 2007, 02:56:20 AM
    Quote from: Hammer on March 08, 2007, 01:37:51 AM
    So if that CAP SM/USAF Officer takes said course, will it still count as his SOS/ACSC/AWC?
    Yes of course, and joint PME credit if you are in another service. And a good way to get ahead too. It does check off the requirement box. You could still be offered a chance to go to the in-res later, especially if its been a while. SOS is the most dif from the in-res, & the eval that happens there is very inmportant to your future. ACSC & AWC are a lot closer in terms of content, but there is a dynamic in person with the extra resources at hand that you don't get, and of course selection is very competitive. Regardless, this is an opportunity you should use in such a situation cause it will really help you out down the road.
    What must a CAP member do to take the coursed?  And can CAP members do the in-res versions too?

    Quote from: DNall on March 08, 2007, 02:56:20 AM
    Quote from: Hammer on March 08, 2007, 01:45:49 AM
    I think just add a "CAP Unit Commanders' Achievement Ribbon/Medal" and be done with it.  Let the Sq/CC be the awarding dude.  Let all unit commandwers be the person who awards it.  Either that or change the Commanders Commendation to be awarded by unit commanders.
    Can we call it a CAP recognition ribbon? Though misnamed, the current CAP merit decs are basically right, just the one on bottom is missing, and that's the one that owuld be real helpful to encourage local performance.

    That individual issue was going on in a seperate discussion a while back & is just getting tied in here with a big picture view.

    Sure, just make the unit commander the awarding dude.

    RiverAux

    Seems like we have gone from reducing ribbons to adding new ones..... anyone done a count on the change in total ribbons CAP members could get if these suggestions were implemented?  >:D

    DNall

    Quote from: DNall on March 05, 2007, 11:42:46 PM
    Net effect:
    This adds 4 decs; eliminates 18 decs; & opens up 3-7 AF decs (not counting awards with a combat requirement)
    At this point we're -10, plus whatever AF awards you want to list. What's more important is what is being taken away versus what is being added, and how much harder the added stuff is... the easiest thing on the list is Sq officer of the year, or three years coninuous qualification in a ES leadership position, stuff like that.

    DNall

    Quote from: Hammer on March 09, 2007, 03:14:03 AM
    What must a CAP member do to take the coursed?  And can CAP members do the in-res versions too?
    It's part of our PD program, you can sign up via your TCO or PD officer, which usually means they'll direct you to the AFIADL website & you can figure ou thow to fill out the forms. There's threads over in the membership area that better address that line of questioning. As to the in-res, the legal technical answer is we're allowed to attend any in-res course with open seats that we meet the security rating for, that doesn't cost the AF anything extra, and w/ permission from the course instructor & base commander; the practical real world answer is "no" yiu can't attend cause the in-res courses are expensive for them & always competitive & full. What you probably can get into are buddy aid, first aid, CPR, combat lifesaver, etc type courses that are pretty routine.


    Quote from: RiverAux on March 09, 2007, 03:23:07 AM
    Seems like we have gone from reducing ribbons to adding new ones..... anyone done a count on the change in total ribbons CAP members could get if these suggestions were implemented?  >:D
    Cut 14, add 4, plus 3-7 AF... the more important thing is what is being cut versus what is being added back. The stuff slated to cut is repetitive & in some cases so easy it cheapens the rest of what you where. Most of what's added is about condensing that stuff, and in most cases is harder to earn.

    ColonelJack

    Quote from: Hawk200 on March 08, 2007, 06:16:32 PM
    As long as good food is involved, I can go for that.  :) A good beer is best accompanied by a good steak.

    Or a couple of great, well-laden footlong hot dogs at a Major League Baseball game.

    Good food?  You're on.

    Jack
    Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
    Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
    Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
    Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
    Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

    Hammer

    A question for you USCG Aux guys.  What USCG ribbons do USCG Aux guys routinely earn?

    MIKE

    Quote from: Hammer on March 09, 2007, 04:58:26 PM
    A question for you USCG Aux guys.  What USCG ribbons do USCG Aux guys routinely earn?

    See here.

    Then there are the team awards that some get for working with the USCG.
    Mike Johnston

    Hammer

    Quote from: MIKE on March 09, 2007, 05:14:01 PM
    Quote from: Hammer on March 09, 2007, 04:58:26 PM
    A question for you USCG Aux guys.  What USCG ribbons do USCG Aux guys routinely earn?

    See here.

    Then there are the team awards that some get for working with the USCG.

    Thanks sir!  I just knew of the one CGUC for 9/11, and the CGPUC for Katrina.  Do USCG Aux members earn medals like the CG Commendation and Achievement as well as the CG Commandants Letter of Commendation?

    MIKE

    Quote from: Hammer on March 09, 2007, 05:36:20 PM
    Do USCG Aux members earn medals like the CG Commendation and Achievement as well as the CG Commandants Letter of Commendation?

    No... except for the gold and silver lifesaving medals and a few service ribbons.

    Back on topic.
    Mike Johnston