Black A-2?

[rframe]

So 39-1 says the "The Air Force brown leather flight jacket is NOT authorized with this or any Air Force style uniform", in regard to the sage nomex flight suit.  OK, AF wants to protect their baby and keep distinction, fine.

So, Vanguard (and others) do sell a black A-2, and I've seen people wear these....

But again, 39-1 says "The green flight jacket is the only outer garment authorized for wear with the green AF-style flight suit".  So, unless I'm missing something you cannot wear the black A-2 either.

So, one might assume the only application for the black A-2 is with a distinctive uniform, but in that case there's no restriction anyway... right?

So, in summary, what's the point of the black A-2?

[Майор Хаткевич]

I've seen it only worn with Blues.

[Pylon]

So, in summary, what's the point of the black A-2?

The black A-2 is currently authorized for the distinctive uniforms.  For example, you could wear it over the blue flight suit or the grey/white aviator combo.  It's purpose is to provide a uniform-appearance outerwear option for corporate uniforms that permits the wear of CAP insignia.  While one could also wear a civilian jacket with those items, he or she could not put CAP insignia on the civilian item.  So one cannot buy a purple civilian jacket and festoon it with one's CAP aircrew-style-flight-nameplate, because of CAPM 39-1's restrictions on CAP insignia.  That's the purpose of the CAP black A-2.

I've seen it only worn with Blues.

And those are the opportunities to either exercise extreme tact with that person or that person's chain to gently remind them that not only is that combo not authorized, the 39-1 specifically goes out of its way to note that this is prohibited.  It's clear as day that it's not to be done.  No fudge factor.

[rframe]

The black A-2 is currently authorized for the distinctive uniforms...that permits the wear of CAP insignia.

OK, I can see where someone might want to do that.  Where did you find this?  I dont see it in 39-1.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have one that I got off Evilbay for a fraction of what it would have been new.

I have it badged correctly with the CAP MAJCOM shield and brown/black leather aircrew patch Velcro'd on.

I wear it with the blue flight/utility suit, G/W kit, and BBDU's.  I used to wear it with the CSU.  If I'm going somewhere "extended" after a CAP activity, I'll take the insignia off and hey, presto! civilian leather jacket.

I've never seen it worn with blues.  When I wear blues, I wear the waist-length blue jacket.

However, I do know of someone who wears a correctly badged green MA-1 with the G/W.

[rframe]

If I'm going somewhere "extended" after a CAP activity, I'll take the insignia off and hey, presto! civilian leather jacket.

Yeah, that's why I was looking at them.

It's cold here in winter, so definitely need a jacket, but then realized the black leather is not supposed to be worn with a sage green nomex flight suit (though apparently a highly flammable MA-1 is just fine  ).... so might have to go find a blue flight suit.... still might be worth it versus spending $75-100 on a used nomex green jacket that would never get worn anywhere other than to CAP...

[Ned]

I love my A2.  Wearing it today, in fact.  Possibly the single best CAP uniform "investment" I have made. 



And it's fun.  I have a pocket full of velcro "morale patches" I wear when not using it for CAP.

Things like logos for local sports teams, plus all the usual ones from the military.

My wife's favorite is the "Cult Leader" patch.  It means different things to different people.   

[rframe]

I wonder if anybody has successfully acid dyed a sage green flight suit to royal blue?

They are expensive!

* Then again, I'm not sure if that'd affect the fire resistant properties?

Added:

I read up on nomex and see no reason why dye would affect the fire resistance as its a property of the material, not a coating.  People have successfully dyed nomex and it's often done for "Ghost Buster" costumes where they will go from sage or tan to a light gray with good results.  I'm seriously considering trying this as I can find $30 FleaBay sage green suits in good condition all day long and dye is only a few dollars.  I guess worst case I'd be out $35 or so...

[Rick-DEL]

Keep an eye this site, things usually pop up for sale. I believe these have been available in the past for much less than what you would pay on the market (mainly Vanguard).

[ol'fido]

I bought my black A-2 from Amazon for about $140. I got a brown A-2 from Pop's Leather about 8 years ago for the same amount. Actually a buddy and former cadet of mine got it for me on one of his deployments as a KC-135 driver. I thought about putting the command patch and brown/black name tag on mine, but I figure it's still legal without them so I left them off and don't worry about wearing it with civvies.

[Storm Chaser]

The black A-2 is currently authorized for the distinctive uniforms...that permits the wear of CAP insignia.

OK, I can see where someone might want to do that.  Where did you find this?  I dont see it in 39-1.

ICL to CAPM 39-1 (12 Mar 2012) states: "A black leather jacket with side entry and patch pockets similar in style to the A-2 jacket is approved for wear by CAP senior members with the aviator shirt combinations, utility uniform, CAP flight suit or CAP polo shirt with gray slacks.  The CAP Command Patch will be worn on the right breast, with the two-toned black with brown insert leather name patch on the left breast pocket."

I've seen it only worn with Blues.

If you're referring to the blue service uniform, then it's being worn improperly. The back A-2 is not authorized with any Air Force-style uniform.

[Garibaldi]

The black A-2 is currently authorized for the distinctive uniforms...that permits the wear of CAP insignia.

OK, I can see where someone might want to do that.  Where did you find this?  I dont see it in 39-1.

ICL to CAPM 39-1 (12 Mar 2012) states: "A black leather jacket with side entry and patch pockets similar in style to the A-2 jacket is approved for wear by CAP senior members with the aviator shirt combinations, utility uniform, CAP flight suit or CAP polo shirt with gray slacks.  The CAP Command Patch will be worn on the right breast, with the two-toned black with brown insert leather name patch on the left breast pocket."

I've seen it only worn with Blues.

If you're referring to the blue service uniform, then it's being worn improperly. The back A-2 is not authorized with any Air Force-style uniform.

Nor is a flight jacket, I found out to my dismay.

[Brad]

Nor is a flight jacket, I found out to my dismay.

CAPM 39-1 page 34 paragraph 9:

The Air Force brown leather flight jacket is NOT authorized with this or any Air Force style uniform. The MA-1 flight jacket or the CWU-45/P or CWU-36/P Nomex flight jackets may be worn.

Emphasis mine. Flight jackets are authorized with Air-Force style uniforms, specifically the green nomex flight suit, just not the leather A-2 flight jackets.

I actually have an A-2 that my mother-in-law got from a thrift store for me, and I turned it into a flight jacket to wear when I got trooping with the 501st Legion as a TIE Pilot. Have unit patches and TIE Pilot wings on it, heh.

[Eclipse]

^ For clarity, the above cite is in regards to flight suits only. 

Flight jackets are not authorized to be worn with USAF-Style blues.

[rframe]

Emphasis mine. Flight jackets are authorized with Air-Force style uniforms, specifically the green nomex flight suit, just not the leather A-2 flight jackets.

To further emphasize from 39-1.  With the green flight suit,

The green flight jacket is the only outer garment authorized for wear with
the green AF-style flight suit. Grade insignia, CAP command patch,
American flag and leather name patch are worn.

So you can't wear a black (or other color) CWU/45, CWU/27, or MA-1.... green only.

I'm pretty well decided to say to heck with the green flight suit, what a pain.

With the blue flight suit a blue flight jacket is recommended, but not required.

[LGM30GMCC]

A number of USAF pilots are quite sensitive about the flight suit and its appearance. There are those among them who think ONLY PILOTS should wear them. Though then they have to concede to people who fly on the airplane who aren't pilots, but they tend to be dismissive of them.

Frankly, in my opinion, the flight suit is a reasonably comfortable, fairly-functional, low-MX uniform. I don't really care who can or can't wear it. I am glad I get to wear mine, but I don't lose sleep over who else gets to. Frankly, one of the best things about some of the other career fields that wear them is it [aggravates the emotionally insecure and self-righteous] who feel all entitled about it.  :angel:

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I actually have an A-2 that my mother-in-law got from a thrift store for me, and I turned it into a flight jacket to wear when I got trooping with the 501st Legion as a TIE Pilot. Have unit patches and TIE Pilot wings on it, heh.

Now THAT'S a good use for one!

A number of USAF pilots are quite sensitive about the flight suit and its appearance. There are those among them who think ONLY PILOTS should wear them. Though then they have to concede to people who fly on the airplane who aren't pilots, but they tend to be dismissive of them.

Yes...all those loadmasters, flight engineers, navigators, WSO's, etc. should wear something else.

To say nothing of those aircrews in the Navy, Marines, Coast Guard (I'm not sure if Army aviators wear it or have their own kit), RAAF, RAN, RNZAF, RNZN, police aviators, FBI, CBP, NOAA, et. al.

Personally, I think that the blue/grey German flight suits are cooler anyway.

[rframe]

Well I can now confirm that dyeing a nomex flight suit doesn't work.  I soaked mine in a big pot full of boiling/simmering water and two bottles of navy blue rit dye and 1.5 cups of vinegar for two hours.  It really looked like it was turning a rich dark blue.  Then I washed it and....TADA! it was a green flight suit again.  LOL, oh well, it was worth a shot.

[Eclipse]

I would imagine that the fire retardant treatment would make the fabric less permeable to dies after manufacturing.

[rframe]

I would imagine that the fire retardant treatment would make the fabric less permeable to dies after manufacturing.

I read up on it a bit and there were some chemical reports online that were mostly way over my head which explained the technical difficulties in dyeing nomex.  Basically nomex (aramid) is somewhere between nylon and kevlar in composition.  While nylon can be successfully dyed (the velcro on the suits dyes very nicely) the aramid has some chemical bonding problems that make it very difficult.  The color in these suits is generally solution dyed, meaning the color is added during manufacture of the fibers and not added later.  The chemistry involved in most common types of dyeing simply dont work on nomex.  Some of the reports suggest that using certain types of alcohol or liquid carbon dioxide as a wetting agent instead of water might work, but that's not practical for home use.  Also, the chemical reports suggest that using a "basic dye" might work, but these are highly toxic and not recommended for home use.

There are some forums online where fantasy fans use nomex flight suits to build costumes and they've been shown dyeing tan flight suits to grey.  They claim to use a whole bunch of dryer sheets to "remove" the fire resistant coating.  That's nonsense because there is no coating on nomex.  What I suspect they are actually doing is creating a layer of waxy residue and that is what is picking up their dye pigments.  I suspect that in a good hot wash, the dryer sheet build up would melt off along with the color.

My curiosity got the best of me and I decided to try the $5 experiment myself, but skipping the dryer sheet method for reasons I'll explain below.

Nomex's fire resistance is at the fiber level, it's inherent in the material, so there is no coating to remove and it doesnt lose it's resistance... but you can effectively over-ride it's fire protection by adding coatings...like, for instance, a bunch of dryer sheet waxy build up