Not wearing the uniform to prevent terrorist attack

[RiverAux]

Okay, over in another thread one of our contributors, evidently a group commander, said that they ordered their group not to wear their uniforms for almost all events for a time after 9/11.  Evidently because he was afraid that it would make his members vulnerable to terrorist attack.  Two questions:

1.  Was this reasonable at the time?

2.  If it was reasonable to order it at the time, what really has changed since then?  Are terrorists any less likely now to go after CAP members in uniform than they were then?

As you can probably tell, I think the whole idea is ludicrous.

[ZigZag911]

That was me; I was a group commander at the time, I position I no longer hold (unrelated to the subject at hand, I continued in command for some years after 9/11).

It seemed prudent to me, my deputy, and several of my other senior officers at the time, as it did to my Wing Commander, at least until we got a sense of whether more attacks were expected imminently.

Were we being over-cautious?  Perhaps, hard to say six years later....the point is a CAP commander's first responsibility is the safety of the members, especially the cadets.
So, I'm sorry you think it was ludicrous; had you been standing outside on a beautiful September morning watching smoke and debris clouds rise over Manhattan 15 or 20 miles away, you might have felt differently.

[Major Carrales]

I think I would wear my unifrom despite terrorism.  If you allow the Teorrirsts to alter the flow of your existance...then they win.

[MIKE]

IIRC there were similar policies within the military around that same time frame.

[RiverAux]

I just don't get it.  The terrorists had just killed almost three thousand civilians.  Why would a CAP member be at any increased danger by wearing their uniform to a meeting? 

[DNall]

IIRC there were similar policies within the military around that same time frame.

I don't remember that. They weer on Delta & you wanted to be in uniform with six forms of ID handy & don't mind the automatic weapon pointed at you, that went for both mil & CAP. Might have been a don't travel unneccesarily & alone in uniform, but I don't remember that. Generally you're less of a target in uniform. There's just no military gain from killing you & no shock value in killing a troop verus putting a shooter in an elem school.

[wingnut]

Well If I had been in that Group when the Commander said "please don't wear the uniform, we might get attacked by a terrorist? I would have refused!!!  why.
1.I been in the middle east, never did I see the Israeli government tell soldiers not to wear the uniform, a uniform deters terrorists and many criminals.

2.Where in the regulations does it say a Group commander can do that without permission or authorization from the wing or National HQ.

3.Why in the world would you order the removal of the symbols that make us who we are, soldiers died wearing the CAP uniform,911 was like Pearl Harbor for America, CAP responded to Pearl Harbor in just the opposite manner of being afraid, It is who we are!!! I think that there would have been a coup d'état in that group if I had been a member!
 

[A.Member]

1.  Was this reasonable at the time?

No. 

2.  If it was reasonable to order it at the time, what really has changed since then?  Are terrorists any less likely now to go after CAP members in uniform than they were then?

As you can probably tell, I think the whole idea is ludicrous.

Such an idea is ludicrous.

[Major Carrales]

By the way, were any CAP members killed on 9-11?  I mean, that were actually in the World Trade centers?

But, really, as I said before...when you alter your normal lives and choose to live in fear...the terrorists win.

I would have also challenged the order...at least with a call to the Group CC to ask why and defend my point. 

The CAP uniform is a visible sign of Civil Defense.  In WWII, when the nation was similarly challenged...there were more people in uniform on trains and in public than any time in History.

This brand of logic...extended out of CAP...might demand that Law Enforcement not wear their uniform for fear of criminals.

[Major_Chuck]

This thread can go bad real fast depending upon your point of view.

The important thing to remember here is that a decision was made based upon the attacks and uncertaintly at that time in our history.  We can arm chair quarterback  the decision to death which I don't want to do.

A command decision was made.  We all agree to abide by those decisions.  In this world too often we encounter leaders who fail to make decisions.  In this case he consulted with his senior staff and they were of the same mindset at that particular time and place.

[A.Member]

The important thing to remember here is that a decision was made based upon the attacks and uncertaintly at that time in our history.  We can arm chair quarterback  the decision to death which I don't want to do.

To this I agree.  The Sept. 11 attacks happened over 5 years ago, why is this a topic now?  While I definitely disagree with the decision, I'm certainly not interested in rehashing it.

[RiverAux]

Why a topic now?  First, this board wasn't here then...Second, I never heard of it until today and I am extremely troubled by the decision on a number of different levels. 

[Chris Jacobs]

If you don't remember the time every thing was crazy.  I was only 12 years old and i remember all the crazy things people and the government were doing.  i don't think this action is any thing that is that far in left field that requires discussion.  i especially don't think that this comand decision needs to be put into a category titled "ludicrous".  Remember hindsight is always 20/20.

[RiverAux]

If there had been an attack, or a specific threat of attack on CAP members in particular, this might make some sense (even though I think that is a fairly remote possibility).  However, even then this decision has some logical flaws. 

If some group said they're going to attack and kill CAP members, not wearing a uniform won't make a bit of difference when you're still all going to be gathered together in a group in an unsecure building for your regular squadron meetings anyway.   

There is a time and a place for being discrete about association with the US military.  Military members traveling via commercial means through the middle east probably aren't going to be wearing their uniforms.  Similar situations exist out there.  But not wearing your CAP uniform in the US when otherwise you would doesn't fit in that category in my book. 

And, this isn't just a matter of armchair quarterbacking.  Sooner or later terrorists will strike America again.  Do you want CAP leadership making a similar decision absent a specific threat to CAP? 

[wingnut]

I think it is a very appropriate subject. We need to discuss the potential threat to a CAP member or sabotage of CAP equipment and Aircraft by persons who are against our activities on the Border or in the anti drug flights, the Homeland Security Flights. Are our planes behind a locked fence (Almost all police cars are)?  Are we as participants prepared for retaliation?  Should we even discuss this possibility and how to protect ourselves?? Opsec Security!!!

I see a new thread here

[lordmonar]

Okay, over in another thread one of our contributors, evidently a group commander, said that they ordered their group not to wear their uniforms for almost all events for a time after 9/11.  Evidently because he was afraid that it would make his members vulnerable to terrorist attack.  Two questions:

1.  Was this reasonable at the time?

No.  Terrorists are not just trolling for random GI's to kill.  They know who you are, where you are and when you are going to be there.  If you have been targeted suddenly taking off your uniform is not going to help that much.

2.  If it was reasonable to order it at the time, what really has changed since then?  Are terrorists any less likely now to go after CAP members in uniform than they were then?

As you can probably tell, I think the whole idea is ludicrous.

Concur.....lots of people lost their minds after 9/11 and amped up anti terrorism levels way up for no good reason.  Mostly it was just eye wash "see we are doing something to protect you".  We never secured our overseas bases.  They still are not secure.

In addition CAP is way...way....way....way down on the list of terrorists targets.

[Chris Jacobs]

I agree that this is a topic that may need to be discussed.  discussing an order that was given directly after the worst attack on American soil since Pearl harbor is what i feel is "ludicrous".

To say that there was no specific threat on CAP might be true, but at the time no one knew.  and just like other safety related things taking some small steps decreases risks.  Buckling your seat belt is just one small thing you do every time you get in your car, to be really safe there are many more things you must do.  So i don't think the order at the time was basically wrong.

In the future maybe a different approach should be taken, but at the time that is what the commander felt needed to be done to keep his people safe.  If he would have had a long time to think about the decision maybe it would be different.

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other, and i would love to hear what people have to say about how we should deal with it in the future.  I am disgusted that any one would criticize a leader after 9-11 for doing something out of fear.  The whole country was scared to death and as i said there were a lot of crazy decisions made.

[flyerthom]

I neither disagree or agree with the decision but I would urge anyone involved in any emergency service to remember these little treasures:
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/emergencypreparedness/guides/secondary.html
[http://cryptome.org/ieds.pdf

The bottom line is: emergency responders are a target. The uniform is a target. NV health professionals are required to take at least 4 hours of CBNRE training post license. That is an integral part of the training. We assume that risk willingly. A commander must make decisions in the heat of the moment to protect his people. Some in hind sight may seem over the top. But then again, how often have we paid for the lack of vigilance with tragedy?

The decision may have been overly cautious, but the intent to protect our volunteers is beyond reproach. We can not care for others if we do not care for ourselves.

[lordmonar]

I am disgusted that any one would criticize a leader after 9-11 for doing something out of fear.  The whole country was scared to death and as i said there were a lot of crazy decisions made.

Sorry you feel that way.  When my comm site was bombed in '88 no one lost their minds and over reacted.  Between 89-95 when I was in Japan my base was rocketed three times.  We never even changed our threatcon.

I most certainly can criticize our leaders for operating on fear instead of good intelligence.  Yes we missed the 9-11 hijackers...but standard operating procedure says that after a few day, if there are no more attacks then the cell has spent their wad.  Also we reacted globally.  My base in Japan was at FPCON Charlie.  There was no threat there.  There was no need for us to go the level of security we did.  Except that our leaders were operating on fear.....and not using their brains.

[ZigZag911]

Well If I had been in that Group when the Commander said "please don't wear the uniform, we might get attacked by a terrorist? I would have refused!!!  why.
1.I been in the middle east, never did I see the Israeli government tell soldiers not to wear the uniform, a uniform deters terrorists and many criminals.

2.Where in the regulations does it say a Group commander can do that without permission or authorization from the wing or National HQ.

3.Why in the world would you order the removal of the symbols that make us who we are, soldiers died wearing the CAP uniform,911 was like Pearl Harbor for America, CAP responded to Pearl Harbor in just the opposite manner of being afraid, It is who we are!!! I think that there would have been a coup d'état in that group if I had been a member!
 

And if you had been in my Group (the one in questions), at the very least we would have had a long, frank conversation about cooperation and carrying out orders.

FYI, I did have the concurrence of the Wing CC.

Coup d'etat, by the way, is a French word, a nation that hasn't been a whole lot of help in this entire situation.

[Chris Jacobs]

I am disgusted that any one would criticize a leader after 9-11 for doing something out of fear.  The whole country was scared to death and as i said there were a lot of crazy decisions made.

Sorry you feel that way.  When my comm site was bombed in '88 no one lost their minds and over reacted.  Between 89-95 when I was in Japan my base was rocketed three times.  We never even changed our threatcon.

I most certainly can criticize our leaders for operating on fear instead of good intelligence.  Yes we missed the 9-11 hijackers...but standard operating procedure says that after a few day, if there are no more attacks then the cell has spent their wad.  Also we reacted globally.  My base in Japan was at FPCON Charlie.  There was no threat there.  There was no need for us to go the level of security we did.  Except that our leaders were operating on fear.....and not using their brains.

I would hope that military leaders could act in a logical way.  I understand that the military must keep a calm head and run on standard operating procedures.  But we are not the full on military.  we are ran by civilian volunteers.  and these leaders mission is not to keep up military operations.  they do have a responsibility to keep us safe, including cadets as young as 12.  Some have only a small amount of training, and barley any have any specific training on how to deal with a terrorist attack.  So saying that we should expect them to make the decision in this circumstance correctly is asking a little to much of civilian volunteers. 

If i was in comand of a group i don't think i would have made the order to not wear uniforms.  But that is just me.  I would be the one in the responsibility position.  But i was not on that day.

But i guess we may have to agree to disagree on this one.

[DNall]

There was no threat there.  There was no need for us to go the level of security we did.  Except that our leaders were operating on fear.....and not using their brains.

I don't know if I'd be so hard on them. I mean we just got hit at home, there was not faith in intell & everything was crazy, it'd be easy for something to slip between the cracks, just like so many things about the Pearl Harbor story. If you're a base commander in that enviro, do you really want to risk letting something happen on your watch? I tink they & everyone standing watch knew it was unneccessary, but they kept it up really till we were in Afghan & had the enemy at arms length.

Far as that order right after 9/11, ya know I don't think there's any reason or room to criticize. It's in the past, who cares. You wanna discuss if CAP is at threat based on uniforms, if they are legally mandatory & meant to protect us under international law (they are), or some other subject down that line then that's fine. I don't know if there are answers you can reach on that, or if they matter, but that's your call.

[Chris Jacobs]

Far as that order right after 9/11, ya know I don't think there's any reason or room to criticize. It's in the past, who cares. You wanna discuss if CAP is at threat based on uniforms, if they are legally mandatory & meant to protect us under international law (they are), or some other subject down that line then that's fine. I don't know if there are answers you can reach on that, or if they matter, but that's your call.

That has been my point, but you make it so much better i think.

Tags - MIKE

[Major Carrales]

Well If I had been in that Group when the Commander said "please don’t wear the uniform, we might get attacked by a terrorist? I would have refused!!!  why.
1.I been in the middle east, never did I see the Israeli government tell soldiers not to wear the uniform, a uniform deters terrorists and many criminals.

2.Where in the regulations does it say a Group commander can do that without permission or authorization from the wing or National HQ.

3.Why in the world would you order the removal of the symbols that make us who we are, soldiers died wearing the CAP uniform,911 was like Pearl Harbor for America, CAP responded to Pearl Harbor in just the opposite manner of being afraid, It is who we are!!! I think that there would have been a coup d’état in that group if I had been a member!
 

And if you had been in my Group (the one in questions), at the very least we would have had a long, frank conversation about cooperation and carrying out orders.

FYI, I did have the concurrence of the Wing CC.

Coup d'etat, by the way, is a French word, a nation that hasn't been a whole lot of help in this entire situation.

If I may say one thing...

While I don't agree with the action I will say that it must have taken lots of chutzpah, in the meaning of gutsy, to do that.  And, I am sure it was done with the safety of the CAP Officers in mind.

[O-Rex]

I'm really not worried about us being on the Taliban's "10 most wanted" list. Terrorists aim at community/national centers-of-gravity to achieve their desired effect: CAP isn't one of them.

If a terrorist sees a CAP member in uniform, chances are he'll ignore and walk right past, on the way to planning something BIG.

Those members with "James Bond" notions were likely disappointed....

Nonetheless, there is something to be said for erring on the side of caution, as 9/11 was an upheaval for all.

[ZigZag911]

Just to clarify, my concern was not with CAP being targeted, but with CAP being mistaken for active military forces.

[Pumbaa]

One point I did not see while reading through this thread...

Everyone is saying CAP is not a target.. understood...  However, remember that our uniform sorta kinda looks like momma blue...

Terrorists target uniforms. (or in my mind anybody, men women and children)  They do not say.. ohhh lookkee see CAP.. No they say.. American Serivceman in uniform Crush kill destroy! or some Allah comment before rushing at you with a knife to slit your throat or having finger on button of personal explosive belt

How many times have you been on your way to a meeting say in your blues or BDUs, stopped for some gas or something else, and someone makes a comment (usually positive), thanks you for your service, asks you if you are on leave or heading back out?  Again people do not see CAP, but they see a service style uniform worn PROPERLY (I might add), and think military.

Now.. That being said, remember that the cadets are 12-18 years old.. Do you want them to be a potential target? Personally I think the risk was low... but like anything in life it is a risk. I vote that it might have been a little overboard, but the logic at the time, can not be totally argued against.

Me?  I watched the towers fall that day, my friend who I graduated highschool with, was working on the 103 of the north tower.  I had fire in my belly when I saw the towers come down... I put on my leather jacket with USA down the arms, Ol Glory on the back, just itching to tangle with some terrorist...  Lemme wear my uniform wherever I can... DAng.. stupid rule about not being able to carry a side arm.. sigh...

[SAR-EMT1]

Here in ILWG, the units near me were all sans uniforms for at least two weeks. - Same with a few local JROTC and College ROTC units-
It wasnt so much a fear decision as: if you are in uniform either check out a M9 or if you cant get an M9 dont wear it. I happened to see retired "Auxiliary Police" at some airports and bus stations with all manner of automatic weapons.

Within CAP I  assure you that there were a few Pilots who were deciding on the best way to mount Stingers to the 172's.

[davedove]

I can see that in some ways a uniform might make someone more of a target.  However, a uniformed presence will also tend to be a deterent in many cases, as the their presence would make a target look better defended.  Terrorists tend to go after soft targets that are not well defended.

[afgeo4]

As a member of a squadron in Manhattan just after 9/11, I can say that the idea of our members, especially cadets, wearing uniforms to and from activities while on the subway, buses or other public transportation was very troubling. We knew that potential terrorists lived in our city, in our neighborhoods. We knew that many ethnic and religious groups in the city celebrated the attacks of 9/11 and we knew that anyone in a military uniform could be a target on an individual level. At the time, the US forces had invaded Afghanistan and the nation was clearly at war. Anyone wearing BDUs on the subway could be a target for assault. Remember, at that time, every major and many secondary subway stations has national guardsmen with M-16s. Our 13 year old cadets didn't have weapons but because they were wearing the same uniforms, could be great targets for those who wanted to make a statement. That was the atmosphere in the city at the time and that is also the reason why US armed forces were instructed not to travel in uniform in NYC post 9/11 as well.

[Major_Chuck]

In addition CAP is way...way....way....way down on the list of terrorists targets.

I think you left off two 'way...way's'...   

[lordmonar]

In addition CAP is way...way....way....way down on the list of terrorists targets.

I think you left off two 'way...way's'...   

Way...way...way....way.  There you go four more for good measure.  I don't want anyone to think they are being short changed. 

[Major_Chuck]

It's easy to say what we would have, could have, should have done right now.  Put in your minds that it is the evening of 9/11/2001.  

Play like you're the Group or Wing Commander of NY WG on that day.  It is 1800 hours.  America was attacked less than 12 hours earlier.  Smoke still lingers over Manhatten.  Nothing except military aircraft are flying overhead.  Inbound flights from outside the US are being diverted.

Based upon what you know right now (Sept 11, 2001) and what really DID NOT know.  Make a decision.

Make your decision as every talking news head anchor is proclaiming that there is a terrorist cell waiting in your back yard.

Make your decision based upon a very scared, very confused, very concerned general population that just witnessed the deaths of some 3000 people live on TV.

Make a decision, and stand by that decision based upon the facts at hand.  When the picture is clearer, change the decision.

[wingnut]

Gheez Wiz, its ok we forgive you for being a scared, we all have been scared, we were terrorized, that's why we call them terrorist, they terrorized us. I mean we all respect the New Orleans Policemen who threw their Badges down and ran away, they stopped doing their duty; Right??

this is a blog: right? in my opinion to run from terrorists', or "ethnic minorities bogymen" or what ever you have rationalized to attempt to have us accept what you did. Well you get no sympathy from me, taking ones uniform off in fear of being attacked is an act of weakness, without courage, honor or integrity it spits on the graves of all of those Civil Air Patrol members who have died in the line of duty. And my father who asked to be buried in his CAP uniform. He being a combat veteran of both the US Army and Us Navy, yet my father hated the military and war but he had a pride in his CAP uniform, the thought of  CAP members hiding in fear just reminds me of how "unmilitary" we in CAP often are. In hostile foreign countries I can understand not wearing a US military uniform. But we are in America Buddy, shame.

Remember before you over react to my reaction I have had terrorist bombs going off around me in the middle east, I have worn a police uniform in the middle of a riot, I guess I could have taken off my uniform and disappeared into the night, but I had a duty to stay. One of our senior cadets told me last week that many of the cadets see many of the Senior CAP members as having little integrity. . . I agree. When you take the Oath and put  the US on your service coat you are representing the United States, thats why the US Air Force and Congress call us the US Air Force Auxillary.

[MIKE]

this is a blog: right?

Not exactly.

Main Entry: blog 
Pronunciation: \ˈblȯg, ˈbläg\
Function: noun
Etymology: short for Weblog
Date: 1999
: a Web site that contains an online personal journal with reflections, comments, and often hyperlinks provided by the writer
— blog·ger noun
— blog·ging noun

Main Entry: fo·rum 
Pronunciation: \ˈfȯr-əm\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural forums also fo·ra  \-ə\
Etymology: Latin; akin to Latin foris outside, fores door — more at door
Date: 15th century
1 a: the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b: a public meeting place for open discussion c: a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas
2: a judicial body or assembly : court
3 a: a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b: a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities

[/off-topic]

[ZigZag911]

To clarify again, in the aftermath of 9/11. all personnel needed/requested from my command made themselves available, when and where asked for, in the appointed uniform.

This included personnel assisting in getting relief supplies to the WTC site itself.

For a period of 6 or so weeks afterward, members in this group were instructed not to wear uniforms to weekly unit meetings.

As has been suggested elsewhere, this was because of the fact that CAP BDUs are virtually indistinguishable from the active services from any distance, or in dusk or darkness.

No ran around in panic.

No one hid under the bed.

It was a precaution taken in the uncertainty surrounding the events of 9/11.

I'd do the same thing again in similar circumstances, because ultimately I answer to my conscience, not anyone's opinion.

[afgeo4]

Every member in NYC Group showed up for duty after 9/11. They all showed up in uniforms. All air and ground missions were done on time and in uniform. NO ONE threw their "badge" down. Members were simply instructed not to wear uniforms to/from duty stations, that's all. It's a common sense order given for the safety of our members. As I've said previously, the US Army and US Air Force personnel in NYC at the time were instructed to do the same. Why? Same reason why we tell them to wait for the green light to cross the street. Because their lives are too valuable to us for them to act stupid.

Your "feeling" on the situation is noted and your questioning the integrity and honor of our members is noted as well.