Honor Guard Academy 2013?

Started by Майор Хаткевич, December 05, 2012, 06:11:32 AM

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Майор Хаткевич

Heard today that there will not be an NCSA HGA this year? Anyone know if this is true/why?

Extremepredjudice

At the airport, (when leaving) a member of staff sat and talked to myself and a couple other cadets. He said NHQ wanted to shut HGA down.

Also, HGA isn't cost effective. The location is too expensive. The 500 activity fee barely pays for the room and board.

It was really noticeable that they didn't have enough money, even as a white hat. I picked up on it after the first few days.

Nothing concrete, though.
I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

Майор Хаткевич

Not surprised if that's the reason, but it's still a shame.

I know at least one cadet in my unit was hoping to go next summer.

Eclipse

That's unfortunate, but in the long run this is something that would probably be better run on a Regional or even Wing level.

It would reduce the travel and lodging expenses and open it up to a wider group.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on December 05, 2012, 03:56:08 PM
That's unfortunate, but in the long run this is something that would probably be better run on a Regional or even Wing level.

It would reduce the travel and lodging expenses and open it up to a wider group.

Agreed, and that's how the NCSA began in the first place.

I know a few wings have strong HG programs (FL, MD, etc), but for the majority, the little drizzle to HGA was pretty much the pool of knowledge in the wing.

HGjunkie

HGA's been getting tighter and tighter on money each year, plus the $500 limit on cost isn't very affordable or sustainable.
Whether they actually closed it down is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Eclipse

Who establishes the limit on cost?

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

If it's still a 2 week event, that's $250 / week and $36 per day with room and board and food. ON TOP OF THAT, your parents get camp for two weeks, and you get some cool cadet street cred/bling.

I'm not saying it's cheap, and it certainly wasn't for me which is why it was my first and only NCSA, but when I compare it to what my parents had spent for a silly day camp for my sister, that's a STEAL.

Back when I went in 2005, the cost for a white hat was $425 and returning cadets $225. Presumably the extra $200 covered the equipment the cadets get. I was thinking about applying for a second year, but unfortunately the cost had increased in 2006 closer to $500 no matter what year you were attending, so that as the end of it for me.


spaatzmom

Quote from: Eclipse on December 05, 2012, 03:56:08 PM
That's unfortunate, but in the long run this is something that would probably be better run on a Regional or even Wing level.

It would reduce the travel and lodging expenses and open it up to a wider group.


NHGA did start out as a MD wing activity.  It grew greatly as other cadets heard about it and requested admission to the academy.  Once it had a certain number of attendees from outside of the wing on a consistent basis, NHQ opened it as a NCSA, I believe in 2000 after being functional for at least 15 years.

Sadly it is not on the current list of activities, as are several other events, for 2013.

spaatzmom

Quote from: Eclipse on December 05, 2012, 06:30:31 PM
Who establishes the limit on cost?
.
the past and expected budget of the event.  When the cost of it went up for returning attendees, it was because of the increased cost of the facilities being used and the equipment needed.  Last year the amount of equipment received by white hats, first year, was cut dramatically due to the again vastly increased cost to purchase the equipment.

Eclipse

Understood, I took this:
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 05, 2012, 06:23:46 PMplus the $500 limit on cost isn't very affordable or sustainable. Whether they actually closed it down is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised.
meant that there was an artificial cap on the activity fees and the event wasn't sustainable.

$500 today is nothing for two weeks of any kind meaningful activity, especially if it includes full room and board >and< equipment.

"That Others May Zoom"

spaatzmom

There was no imposed fee limit by NHQ.  I remember in the past, the flight academies and IACE fees were $800 and one that I can't remeber the name of was well past $1200.

The director would try to break even after accounting for donations from all over.  Unfortunately, those generous contacts dried up after the good Col. left to care for her now deceased husband.

HGjunkie

They wanted to raise the price from $500, but apparently NHQ kept them on a cap since they aren't NFA. Or that's what we were told.

HGA requires a ridiculous amount of money for equipment (Mark 1 rifles ain't cheap, especially since they're forced to get everything from Vanguard) and the college dorms are another huge chunk of money at approximately $450 per person, which leaves $50*120-something left over for necessary equipment, shirts, meals, yada yada etc.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Eclipse

We could host that at Great Lakes for $0 for the billeting, and about $150 for meals, with military parade decks and drill halls
within a 3-minute march, though a 2-week long event would be a challenge from a Navy supervisory perspective - not impossible, though.

"That Others May Zoom"

spaatzmom

Quote from: HGjunkie on December 05, 2012, 09:55:44 PM
They wanted to raise the price from $500, but apparently NHQ kept them on a cap since they aren't NFA. Or that's what we were told.

HGA requires a ridiculous amount of money for equipment (Mark 1 rifles ain't cheap, especially since they're forced to get everything from Vanguard) and the college dorms are another huge chunk of money at approximately $450 per person, which leaves $50*120-something left over for necessary equipment, shirts, meals, yada yada etc.

As a cadet, you are not as in the loop as you would like to think.  Yes, the expenses are unbelievable but they have gotten their equipment from many sources to include Vanguard but not exclusively from them as they do not carry all of it or are just too expensive.  The college is the biggest problem and has been for some time even though the directors scouted all possible facilities from Va to NJ not sure how far west.  The limitations on distance were also divided between how far the directors could reasonably drive in a day with the many trailers of stuff needed and the distance the AF Presidential Honor Guard could travel daily from Bolling AFB to instruct the cadets.  As a past staff member for nearly 9 years, I have the ins and outs of what went on behind the "curtains".   

HGjunkie

I'm getting all my info from the SA's and the other staff so I know how they're hard pressed at least for the 3 past activity years. Recently they've been forced to get everything they're possibly able to from Vanguard (Ascots, activity shirts, cords, about 90% of the HGA store because of the CAP-vanguard sole merchant agreement) with a couple select items coming from Glendale (gloves, belts, taps/cheaters, rifles, things like that).
They can't even give out chinstraps anymore because of the costs. A $7 strip of leather. Pretty ridiculous. This year they couldn't even issue out 6 shirts to each new cadet, they got 1 or 2.

The college really is a drive for the Guardsmen, it's not near the airport/DC, the dorms are in okay-ish condition but nothing to sneeze at, but at least there's lecture halls and empty classrooms we're allowed to use.
Bottom line is HGA eats money and lots of it.

Having it on a military installation again would be great, just to alleviate the financial burdens if anything.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

spaatzmom

Quote from: HGjunkie on December 06, 2012, 12:08:30 AM
I'm getting all my info from the SA's and the other staff so I know how they're hard pressed at least for the 3 past activity years. Recently they've been forced to get everything they're possibly able to from Vanguard (Ascots, activity shirts, cords, about 90% of the HGA store because of the CAP-vanguard sole merchant agreement) with a couple select items coming from Glendale (gloves, belts, taps/cheaters, rifles, things like that).
They can't even give out chinstraps anymore because of the costs. A $7 strip of leather. Pretty ridiculous. This year they couldn't even issue out 6 shirts to each new cadet, they got 1 or 2.

The college really is a drive for the Guardsmen, it's not near the airport/DC, the dorms are in okay-ish condition but nothing to sneeze at, but at least there's lecture halls and empty classrooms we're allowed to use.
Bottom line is HGA eats money and lots of it.

Having it on a military installation again would be great, just to alleviate the financial burdens if anything.

The SA's don't always have the facts.  They often change year to year. Actually the staff shouldn't be discussing the financial ins and outs with cadets, in my opinion, even if asked. 

Pylon

Quote from: spaatzmom on December 06, 2012, 12:27:37 AMActually the staff shouldn't be discussing the financial ins and outs with cadets, in my opinion, even if asked.


I don't see why not.  We prepare our cadets, especially in Phase III and IV, for this type of planning, management, and executive oversight.  There's no real reason I see that our budgets for activities and programs shouldn't be transparent to the entire membership.


On top of that, if anything, transparency could help activity directors find cost efficiencies.  If I saw that Activity XYZ was spending $500 on something, and I know that from my experience in running Activity ABC that it can be obtained from another source reliably for $250 wouldn't that be the type of collaborative information and improvement that could come from open information?   And even furthermore, I think if cadets and senior members had a better idea of where activity fees go to, it would be easier to "sell" the cost of activities to parents and our volunteers.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Eclipse

#18
The one issue with "transparency" is being transparent.

Then people like me ask why, on earth, an activity would supply 6 shirts, the assumption being these are blue uniform shirts.  That's got to add $100+ dollars to the fees.  It would literally be less expensive just to send the same shirt to the local cleaners every day.

No growing CAP cadet is going to be able to use 6 dress shirts before they grow out of them.  At the rate a lot of cadets wear their blues, 6 shirts is a year's worth of uniforms without a wash.

I also have to throw the flag an any VG conspiracies, except to say that if the activity isn't doing lowest-price sourcing because of confusion over a non-existent VG exclusivity, and that raises the cost to the cadets, that is a problem. 

"That Others May Zoom"

spaatzmom

Quote from: Pylon on December 06, 2012, 12:59:24 AM
Quote from: spaatzmom on December 06, 2012, 12:27:37 AMActually the staff shouldn't be discussing the financial ins and outs with cadets, in my opinion, even if asked.


I don't see why not.  We prepare our cadets, especially in Phase III and IV, for this type of planning, management, and executive oversight.  There's no real reason I see that our budgets for activities and programs shouldn't be transparent to the entire membership.


On top of that, if anything, transparency could help activity directors find cost efficiencies.  If I saw that Activity XYZ was spending $500 on something, and I know that from my experience in running Activity ABC that it can be obtained from another source reliably for $250 wouldn't that be the type of collaborative information and improvement that could come from open information?   And even furthermore, I think if cadets and senior members had a better idea of where activity fees go to, it would be easier to "sell" the cost of activities to parents and our volunteers.

You raise some valid points.  I was speaking from my experience with NHGA, where you have a majority of new SA's each year and their understanding of the academy and its budget is, shall we say lacking?  The incidence of incorrect financial info being given to cadets in that instance would be great.  A lot of the cadets who did attend were phase 3 or 4, but there were a number of phase 2 and phase 1 there in any given year.  From all the years I was there, I would say only a handful of the cadets would be even remotely interested in the behind the scene workings of the academy and they were the ones who dedicated themselves to it by returning for the 3 year program and then going back to be on staff.

Eclipse

Quote from: spaatzmom on December 06, 2012, 01:36:09 AMI was speaking from my experience with NHGA, where you have a majority of new SA's each year and their understanding of the academy and its budget is, shall we say lacking? 

The assumptions some cadets make about the way CAP is funded are at the same time humorous and unfortunate - sometimes egged on by parents who
understand even less about how CAP works.

"That Others May Zoom"

spaatzmom

Quote from: Eclipse on December 06, 2012, 01:33:19 AM
The one issue with "transparency" is being transparent.

Then people like me ask why, on earth, an activity would supply 6 shirts, the assumption these are uniform shirts.  That's got to add $100+ dollars to the fees.  It would literally be less expensive just to send the same shirt to the local cleaners every day.

No growing CAP cadet is going to be able to use 6 dress shirts before they grow out of them.  At the rate a lot of cadets wear their blues, 6 shirts is a years worth of uniforms without a wash.

I also have to throw the flag an any VG conspiracies, except to say that if the activity isn't doing lowest-price sourcing because of confusion over a non-existent VG exclusivity, and that raises the cost to the cadets, that is a problem.


The shirts in question were not dress shirts but t shirts and shorts.  When I was there, we did do lowest cost purchases.  VG does not have a strangle hold on the ascot, glove, t shirt, cord or any other equipment needed market since they are not an exclusive CAP item.  Many other organizations use the same things.  I can see how the latest director could have been nudged into the idea though as she was not one to push back.

spaatzmom

Quote from: Eclipse on December 06, 2012, 01:39:16 AM
Quote from: spaatzmom on December 06, 2012, 01:36:09 AMI was speaking from my experience with NHGA, where you have a majority of new SA's each year and their understanding of the academy and its budget is, shall we say lacking? 

The assumptions some cadets make about the way CAP is funded are at the same time humorous and unfortunate - sometimes egged on by parents who
understand even less about how CAP works.


True

Eclipse

Quote from: spaatzmom on December 06, 2012, 01:43:36 AMThe shirts in question were not dress shirts but t shirts and shorts.  When I was there, we did do lowest cost purchases.  VG does not have a strangle hold on the ascot, glove, t shirt, cord or any other equipment needed market since they are not an exclusive CAP item.  Many other organizations use the same things.  I can see how the latest director could have been nudged into the idea though as she was not one to push back.

Ah - makes more sense.  Yes, there's a lot of people who simply accept the "first answer" they get in CAP, regardless of whether it's the "best answer".
I make a point to tell anyone who will listen always ask the "second question", and have the "third question" ready.

"That Others May Zoom"

a2capt

..doesn't push back, or seemingly push enough to save the program. A director of nothing, perhaps, now?

spaatzmom

Quote from: a2capt on December 06, 2012, 02:25:35 AM
..doesn't push back, or seemingly push enough to save the program. A director of nothing, perhaps, now?

Yup.  No program this year anyway.  The original director is naturally upset, she gave so much of her life to it to have it go up in smoke like this.

COL Land

The U.S. Army Cadet Corps could host this event at Forest Hill Station in Millersburg, KY (12 hours from 80% of the U.S. population) for a much more reasonable rate.  If there is interest, have someone contact me at joseph.m.landsr@armycadets.org.   
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

Майор Хаткевич

Well look at that. Congrats on the new post colonel.

HGjunkie

This came up on my facebook feed, and thought it was interesting:
QuoteCALLING ON EVERYONE TO SUPPORT HONOR GUARD ACADEMY (HGA) - As you may have notice HGA is not listed as a National event. The complaint from National is that HGA is too expensive. The college has not increased their price in 3 years. This year they asked for 10 bucks more per week to cover the rising cost of food. Who wouldn't be willing to pay that?? Please have your parents contact National in support of this "priceless" program. Really, where else can you have room and board for 2 weeks, unlimited delicious food 3 times a day, transportation to and from the airport, actual classrooms on a college campus with large enough venues for training and ceremonies, actual AFHG graduates training you and much, much more for a two week activity ($500)? HGA members will be meeting with HGA staff next week as they try looking for other options because none of us want to see HGA go away or leave our cadets from HGA without a way to complete their graduation. Thank you in advance for your support it is greatly appreciated!

Contact information: CAP NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS CONTACT INFORMATION
CAP National Headquarters
105 South Hansell Street
Bldg. 714
Maxwell AFB, AL 36112-6332
877-227-9142

If this is true, that's more money for HGA than $500. And if it's $10/week/person, quick math shows $20*120, an extra $2400 for the activity to pay for food.

It is too expensive.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

a2capt

..and who posted that, and having people just call NHQ is probably going to tick them off more than anything. At least calling aimlessly.

If someone is directing it towards a specific contact, that's one thing.

HGjunkie

It's from my Group's CAC facebook.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Eclipse

https://www.facebook.com/Group3CAC

That should redefine lead balloon.

Also, putting "priceless" in quotes actually means it isn't.

"That Others May Zoom"

PA Guy

Oh yeah, a bunch of phone calls from poorly informed parents will make a heck of an impression on the CP staff at NHQ. Maybe they could even put a skit on You Tube! ::) It is a done deal as far as a NCSA this year, get over it. It is stuff like this that makes it hard for CACs to have any credibility.

Extremepredjudice

Who thunked this one up? IMHO, they should get a reprimand.
I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

HGjunkie

Well there's also a facebook group now!
<sarcasm>This is a greaat idea</sarcasm>
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Danger

NOOOOOOO :'(  :'( This was the #1 NCSA I was looking forward to applying for.. Here I come Civil Engineering Fam Course and Blue Beret. 8)
"Never take anything too seriously."

the chief

I am one of the cadets that started a facebook group to save HGA....I do not have a problem with parents/cadets contacting National if they are willing to help solve the problem. My parents are willing to pay more for the activity, and donate to help with costs...I also can donate $200.   If money is the only thing blocking this activity maybe we can get it back if we can raise some money to help with the associated costs.
I suggest contacting National to let them know there are cadets that want HGA and want to help find a way to keep it going.
I do not support calling just to complain.

One of my favorite quotes-

Be the change you wish to see in the world~Mahatma Gandi

Offutteer

#37
Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 08:15:02 AM
I am one of the cadets that started a facebook group to save HGA....I do not have a problem with parents/cadets contacting National if they are willing to help solve the problem. My parents are willing to pay more for the activity, and donate to help with costs...I also can donate $200.   If money is the only thing blocking this activity maybe we can get it back if we can raise some money to help with the associated costs.
I suggest contacting National to let them know there are cadets that want HGA and want to help find a way to keep it going.
I do not support calling just to complain.

One of my favorite quotes-

Be the change you wish to see in the world~Mahatma Gandi


However, the message that was put out on that page doesn't offer real information about HOW to deal with the issue.  It does ask people call aimlessly and complain.  It doesn't offer an avenue to compile peoples' thoughts on the issue and then present them, with the respect that NHA teaches, through the proper channels.  Rather than a knee-jerk reaction of "calling NHQ", you should take the time to thoughtfully prepare a plan that could be successful.  We ask cadets to take on challenges, so make this a challenge, rather than complaint.

Майор Хаткевич

Make the activity $700, and bring your own gear as prescribed. Done.

Pylon

Sounds so easy from the armchair general's chair or when you use trite motivational quotes out of context.  It's also really easy to want to characterize this situation as some sort of "us" versus "them" (surely there are evil people at NHQ hellbent on ending HGA for no good reason.... but they might be persuaded by a bunch of generic phone calls to stop being so evil)   In reality, I'm sure nobody at NHQ is sitting behind a desk thinking of nefarious ways they can mess with NCSA's.  In fact the Cadet Programs staff at NHQ is incredibly dedicated and passionate about cadet programs.  I'm sure they would be doing all they could to keep an activity running and I sincerely doubt the issue is as simple as it's being characterized here.

The NCSA application process is already underway for 2013, so it's too late to work it into the mix this year anyway.  You cannot "save HGA" for 2013.  "Being the change you want in the world" also means understanding what you do and do not have control over and what you do and do not have the ability to change.  Holding HGA as an NCSA in 2013 is already beyond the point in time of being possible; it cannot happen this year; accept that.  Redirect your passion to something productive.  Focus your efforts on future years of HGA NCSA, or building a local (Group, Wing, Region) HGA, or anything else that actually has the capacity to have a positive outcome.   

Also, complaining on Facebook instead of asking your chain of command for additional details and then accepting the answer only makes your group look immature.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 08:15:02 AM
....I do not have a problem with parents/cadets contacting National if they are willing to help solve the problem.

That's very nice.

It's also not your call.  There are processes and procedures for this kind of thing, not to mention that it is more then a little
insulting to those involved to insinuate the decisions were made lightly, or that a letter-writing campaign is going to change what are most
likely hard-fast realities about why it was cancelled.

Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 08:15:02 AMI suggest contacting National to let them know there are cadets that want HGA and want to help find a way to keep it going.

Do you honestly believe they don't already know that?

Quote from: Pylon on December 07, 2012, 03:55:19 PMAlso, complaining on Facebook instead of asking your chain of command for additional details and then accepting the answer only makes your group look immature.

Seriously - what's next?  Occupy HGA?

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on December 07, 2012, 04:01:03 PM
Seriously - what's next?  Occupy HGA?

It worked in Taps....though they had real rifles.

the chief

This is a very negative board.  Is this how you teach cadets to change things in life? To sit around complaining or to speak up and request a change.
In no way have I asked random people to call National and complain. I have asked cadets and parents that want the program to continue to call/write/email to let National know that HGA is an activity that many of us think is important.
I have asked the cadets/parents to be a part of the solution of cost by donating money/gift cards/be willing to pay more for the academy.
They can talk to their squadron commander, wing commander, whomever they think will pass the info on up to National...and we are not DEMANDING that National change their mind about HGA we are asking what WE can do to make it happen.


Eclipse

#43
Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 10:23:53 PM
This is a very negative board.  Is this how you teach cadets to change things in life? To sit around complaining or to speak up and request a change.
As a Chief, you should understand the term "chain of command" better, and perhaps trust your superiors more.

Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 10:23:53 PM
In no way have I asked random people to call National and complain.
That's exactly what you've done, the fact that you don't understand that is part of the problem.  Anyone in a position of understanding
or influence in this regard has already plead their case to the CP folks at NHQ and were unsuccessful, for what is likely a variety of reasons
beyond cost.

Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 10:23:53 PM
. I have asked cadets and parents that want the program to continue to call/write/email to let National know that HGA is an activity that many of us think is important.
Again, do you believe that NHQ doesn't already know the impact cancelling an NCSA will have?

"That Others May Zoom"

the chief

Have you heard of Billy Mitchell?

The 2nd phase of a cadet's career has the final achievement as the Billy Mitchell Award.

Here is the story of Billy Mitchell taken from the Learn To Lead Series, Book 1. If we are not supposed to take a part in changing the things we don't agree with, why is he given the honor of having one of our cadet awards named after him?

CASE HISTORY: BRIGADIER GENERAL BILLY MITCHELL
As one of the best combat airmen of WWI, Billy Mitchell knew the
airplane represented the future. It was a breakthrough technology
that would change the world. But Army and Navy officers were less
imaginative in their thinking. They saw the young airplane serving
only in supporting roles, like reconnaissance.
Mitchell had to show the establishment that his vision was right
and their thinking was shortsighted. To prove his point, Mitchell
staged a demonstration. He bombed the captured
German battleship Ostfriesland, sinking her. Still, most
officers did not see the airplane as the fearsome new
weapon of the future.
Mitchell continued to imagine a future where the airplane
dominates the battle. Seventeen years before Pearl
Harbor, he was warning that Japan could use carrierbased
airplanes to attack Hawaii. Few listened.
Furious at his leaders' lack of foresight, Mitchell famously
charged, "The Army and Navy are guilty of incompetence,
criminal negligence and an almost treasonable administration
of the national defense." He said non-flying officers
knew next to nothing about airpower and yet were
directing its course. His vision called for creating an independent
air force that would not be subject to the Army or Navy.
Eventually, military leaders grew tired of Mitchell publicly accusing
them of being idiots. He was court-martialed and dismissed from
the Army.
But twenty years later, at the end ofWWII, Billy
Mitchell's vision of the airplane being the new king
of battle was proven correct. Citing his "outstanding
pioneer service and foresight," Congress finally
acknowledged the wisdom in his vision for airpower,
posthumously awarding him a Medal of Honor.

Eclipse

#45
Quote from: the chief on December 08, 2012, 12:29:14 AM
Have you heard of Billy Mitchell?

Yes, and an outstanding example to use in this case.

Quote from: the chief on December 08, 2012, 12:29:14 AM
Eventually, military leaders grew tired of Mitchell publicly accusing
them of being idiots. He was court-martialed and dismissed from
the Army.
Pursuit of a worthy cause in an inappropriate manner can sometimes do more harm then good.

"That Others May Zoom"

Extremepredjudice

I'm in stitches.

Dude, good enthusiasm, bad execution.

Especially for a military organization.
I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

a2capt

Like magic - Misdirected complaining, will make it all better!


Yeah!



Pylon

#48
Chief,


Billy Mitchell lost his entire career, and was stripped of his rank and booted from the military entirely for his irregular and disrespectful pursuit of air power.  Billy Mitchell picked a penultimate and service-wide changing issue and was prepared to fall on his sword (accept the full consequences) over it because he thought it was that important.


Is this issue (one year of not having one NCSA) so incredibly important to you (and one that you think will have wide-ranging impact on CAP) that you're prepared to risk and potentially lose your credibility, respect, your grade, or worse in pursuit of something that can literally not be changed for this year?  Is that a wise use of all your "political capital"? 


Surely, Billy Mitchell is not included in our curriculum for no reason.  However, he most certainly didn't behave contrary to authority his entire career and he didn't go around his chain-of-command every single time he disagreed with or disliked something.  And when he finally decided to use what "political capital" he had, he was already a Colonel or Brigadier General in the Armed Forces with a long, decorated career to back him up.  I wouldn't put myself on any sort of level to compare with that myself, so I wouldn't recommend trying to follow in his footsteps for this matter for yourself either.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Texas Raiders

A quick bit of research yields 9 major military bases in the state of Maryland.  I don't know if anyone from the HGA has entertained the thought of reaching out to any of these installations, but it wouldn't hurt.  These bases will have the required infrastructure, such as barracks, messing facilities, classrooms, and areas for drill.  Hosting the HGA at a military base may be more cost effective even if housing personnel in visitor lodging.  I organized an event at Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, TX.  While no barracks were available, I was able to negotiate a very handsome discount with the Navy Lodge on base.

I also served at the USCG Academy in New London, CT.  They always had room for visiting personnel, ie Chief Petty Officer School, Leadership and Management School, OCS, and the Warrant Officer School, to name a few.  Those visiting personnel paid their chow bill at the galley upon receiving each meal and I recall the prices being EXTREMELY reasonable.  There is never a shortage of racks, meals, classrooms, or drill fields.  This is why I think that the Naval Academy may be a good choice to contact. 

This is all food for thought and I have been out of the game for several years.  Keep that in mind before you commence any criticizm or bashing.     
SM Randy Patterson
DPO
399th Comp. Squadron,  Danbury, CT "Yankee Hatters"
IAFF Local 1567
USCG- 1998-2010   Boatswain's Mate
Former member of the old 273rd/ Mid-County Composite Squadron, Nederland, Texas- 1994-2000

NC Hokie

Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 10:23:53 PM
This is a very negative board.  Is this how you teach cadets to change things in life? To sit around complaining or to speak up and request a change.
In no way have I asked random people to call National and complain. I have asked cadets and parents that want the program to continue to call/write/email to let National know that HGA is an activity that many of us think is important.
I have asked the cadets/parents to be a part of the solution of cost by donating money/gift cards/be willing to pay more for the academy.
They can talk to their squadron commander, wing commander, whomever they think will pass the info on up to National...and we are not DEMANDING that National change their mind about HGA we are asking what WE can do to make it happen.

Here's a thought...accept that HGA will not be a NCSA this year and see what can be done to make it a Maryland Wing activity instead.
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

Ned

#51
Part of the problem with using military facilities is that we can be (and have been) bumped with little or no notice.  Remember that for an NCSA cadets and seniors make travel plans 4 to 5 months in advance, often non-refundable airplane tickets.  It is a significant risk to put NHGA at a military facility.  Add to that the access difficulties for family and friends.

But the real problem turns out to be simple economics.  The corporate budget for NCSAs is getting smaller, not larger.  And HGA has one of the largest subsidies.  Over $10k, if I recall correctly.  If we kept NHGA, that would mean eliminating multiple other NCSAs, affecting a larger number of cadets.

And unlike an activity like IACE, HGA can be successfully done at a wing or region level.  We are working to pass along some of the NHGA funding to wings or regions who would like to put an HGA on.

The decision to pause NHGA was a difficult one.  We recognize how successful it has been, due in large part to the incredible and tireless efforts of the staff. But after a lot of staff work, Excel spreadsheets, endless Powerpoints, and scrubbing multiple alternatives, this is the decision made by the senior leadership and approved by Gen Carr.

Thank you for your expressions of support for NHGA.

Ned Lee

wwildcat

#52
The former Chanute AFB in Illinois if full of unused USAF facilities, some occupied by the IL National guard's "Lincoln Challenge Academy." That academy is not used during the summer (I think it isnt anyway) they have dorms/space that could be used.

I also know in Salina, KS we have the KSNG Regional Training Center, and it has open bay barracks , plenty of class space and an Auditorium. Its normally used for OCS/WOCS and annual training. Its not always used every week by units, I am sure they could accommodate the Academy.

The facility also has the capability to feed large units, and I am sure the cost is "reasonable" as it does business with CAP/Mil units. :)

Besides Kansas is easy to reach, its in the middle of the U.S. :)

I am a big boy now, there is no reason to go to my wing CC or DCP because I chat on CAPtalk. :)

Texas Raiders

#53
Is there a standard honor/ceremonial/color guard curriculum/SOP for CAP?  There isn't much in the drill and ceremonies manual.  To my knowledge, the drill manual hasn't been updated since I was a cadet and still holds a date of 03JUN96. The standard for this academy is the USAF Honor Guard and I don't think they'd be willing to teach every wing's honor guard program.  If the HGA's mission is to be handled at the wing level or less, then a curriculum/SOP needs to be created and distributed.   

I have a keen interest in ceremonial details, as I served on many as a CAP cadet and have contiuned to do so throughout my careers, both in the military and at my fire department job.  I want to make sure that I'm teaching the USAF/CAP approved curriculum.  If there isn't one, then I have to find the info elsewhere. 
SM Randy Patterson
DPO
399th Comp. Squadron,  Danbury, CT "Yankee Hatters"
IAFF Local 1567
USCG- 1998-2010   Boatswain's Mate
Former member of the old 273rd/ Mid-County Composite Squadron, Nederland, Texas- 1994-2000

spaatzmom

#54
Quote from: Texas Raiders on December 09, 2012, 01:48:10 PM
Is there a standard honor/ceremonial/color guard curriculum/SOP for CAP?  There isn't much in the drill and ceremonies manual.  To my knowledge, the drill manual hasn't been updated since I was a cadet and still holds a date of 03JUN96. The standard for this academy is the USAF Honor Guard and I don't think they'd be willing to teach every wing's honor guard program.  If the HGA's mission is to be handled at the wing level or less, then a curriculum/SOP needs to be created and distributed.   

I have a keen interest in ceremonial details, as I served on many as a CAP cadet and have contiuned to do so throughout my careers, both in the military and at my fire department job.  I want to make sure that I'm teaching the USAF/CAP approved curriculum.  If there isn't one, then I have to find the info elsewhere.

http://www.ncsas.com/file.cfm/media/careerfairs/documents/HGACurriculumGuide2008_5E356E38059EC.pdf
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P052_008_B38750453C56C.pdf   

The cadets are taught exactly what the USAF Honor Guard are since at the academy they are taught by the AF Honor Guard.

HGjunkie

"Standard" really means "changing from year to year" in HG terms, specifically because each year the Guardsmen who come out have different training from year to year and end up teaching us different things every year. It's confusing since what may be correct one year can get flipped the next, so you end up having to relearn every basic drill movement over and over again.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Texas Raiders

#56
Quote from: spaatzmom on December 09, 2012, 02:35:46 PM
Quote from: Texas Raiders on December 09, 2012, 01:48:10 PM
Is there a standard honor/ceremonial/color guard curriculum/SOP for CAP?  There isn't much in the drill and ceremonies manual.  To my knowledge, the drill manual hasn't been updated since I was a cadet and still holds a date of 03JUN96. The standard for this academy is the USAF Honor Guard and I don't think they'd be willing to teach every wing's honor guard program.  If the HGA's mission is to be handled at the wing level or less, then a curriculum/SOP needs to be created and distributed.   

I have a keen interest in ceremonial details, as I served on many as a CAP cadet and have contiuned to do so throughout my careers, both in the military and at my fire department job.  I want to make sure that I'm teaching the USAF/CAP approved curriculum.  If there isn't one, then I have to find the info elsewhere.

http://www.ncsas.com/file.cfm/media/careerfairs/documents/HGACurriculumGuide2008_5E356E38059EC.pdf
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P052_008_B38750453C56C.pdf   

The cadets are taught exactly what the USAF Honor Guard are since at the academy they are taught by the AF Honor Guard.

Thank you very much for posting the resource links!  That information combined with the information from the exsisting drill and ceremonies manual should be sufficient.  I have located some good training videos from the USAF and USA honor guards.
SM Randy Patterson
DPO
399th Comp. Squadron,  Danbury, CT "Yankee Hatters"
IAFF Local 1567
USCG- 1998-2010   Boatswain's Mate
Former member of the old 273rd/ Mid-County Composite Squadron, Nederland, Texas- 1994-2000

mycapson

#57
I am a 1st timer. I hesitate to say anthing as it seems the (old timers) enjoy belittling anyone new.
-The use of the I dream of genie clip was surely helpful and mature.
It is a shame that this teen is being threatened to lose his grade for wanting to save a program. From what I see the teen is trying to advocate for a program that many value and is also trying to come up with a plan to make it viable.
How dare you knock down this teen's efforts. This teen is obviously a leader in the making.
I come from a military background. Grandfather. Father. Brothers. I have a 14 year old son, ~S~. He lives for the military.
He will NEVER be in the military. He has disabilities. He is bipolar and attention deficit. He does not have behavior issues, just learning problems.
He was recruited to CAP in FL. He loves his uniform and likes to "march" around in it.
The reality of CAP for my son-he will most likely never promote. For him the tests are a challenge as well as the PT. That is ok with him He is proud that he is in the "military."
He is a soldier in his uniform.
Although others don't see it that way.
I have been dropping him off/picking him up. I was told this was fine.
(The Commander and recruiter have full info on the limitations ~S~ has.
I was told he would be accepted at his level.
Imagine my heart break after finding out that ~S~ has spent several meetings in the lobby.
A friend advised me after questioning why he was never back with the squadron. The reason, ~S~ lost his ID card. He has been humiliated about losing his card and was to upset to tell me that he had to buy a new one.
After finding out about this I asked him what he does for an hour and a half while waiting for me to pick him up.
He told me he opens the door for anyone coming in or out.
He does it proudly in his CAP uniform. He is happy to serve in any capacity and came up with a "job" for himself.
The same friend that alerted me to this situation also told me that anyone in the squadron could have helped ~S~ print out a temporary card. They also could have let me know to go online and purchase the new card for $1.00.
It has also been discovered that the commander advised cadet staff and senior staff from letting him past the lobby until he had a new card.
Several people were emailed concerning ~S~ and him not having the ID and advising staff to check him at the door.
How upsetting that rather than help him print a card they went out of their way to make sure he did not get help.
Those in place to help him are the ones that are trying to destroy his self esteem.
Thankfully like the teen above , ~S~ found a way around them and was still providing a service, even though he did not get CAP credit for it. We are moving soon to NJ  and hope to find a squadron that will have compassion for ~S~.
For the teen above, good luck with your endeavors you will go far in life for standing up for your convictions.
If you are reprimanded for your efforts, it is a SHAME on CAP, not on you.

Extremepredjudice

It is a shame that unit did that. If I was there, I would've helped your son. I think you should sit down with the unit commander, his deputy, the cadet commander, and your son's immediate cadet supervisor.

CAPTalk doesn't like new blood (let's face it, it is true). You have to figure out where you stand in the forum.

"the chief" is trying for the wrong thing. 2013 is decided. Period. No way to change this.

If "the chief" really does want to advocate and get HGA back, people have posted a lot of solutions. He needs to plan. He needs to figure out a solution and market it to NHQ THROUGH THE CHAIN OF COMMAND for 2014.

The way he is going about it is stupid. No military organization is going to give a rat's a** about people calling in. Sorry, it is true.

Acting like he is Billy Mitchell isn't helping
I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
I am a 1st timer. I hesitate to say anthing as it seems the (old timers) enjoy belittling anyone new.

People who come in here without a 'tude have no problems. Next thing you know they have hundreds of posts and are regulars.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
-The use of the I dream of genie clip was surely helpful and mature.

Fire with fire and all that.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
It is a shame that this teen is being threatened to lose his grade for wanting to save a program.

Reading comprehension. It matters. Being told that consequences because of a stunt may lead to removal from the program != someone here doing so.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
From what I see the teen is trying to advocate for a program that many value and is also trying to come up with a plan to make it viable.

Said teen is misinformed, unaware of how things work, and is fighting a battle that has ended before he arrived on the field.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
How dare you knock down this teen's efforts. This teen is obviously a leader in the making.

All of our cadets are. When they make mistakes they get consequences. That's part of growing up and developing as a leader. Ask Nin and Eclipse about a certain other C/Chief and the grief he had on CS some seven years ago. Didn't kill me, won't kill him.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
He will NEVER be in the military. He has disabilities. He is bipolar and attention deficit. He does not have behavior issues, just learning problems.

CAP can work with that.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
He was recruited to CAP in FL. He loves his uniform and likes to "march" around in it.

I hope you mean actually Marching and not "marching", because he should be doing the former, same as anyone else in CAP.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
The reality of CAP for my son-he will most likely never promote. For him the tests are a challenge as well as the PT. That is ok with him He is proud that he is in the "military."

By no means is that a reality for ANYONE in CAP. What CAN be a reality is a cadet removed from the program for failure to progress. That is in the regs, disabilities leading to 5 year C/ABs is not. IAW CAPR 52-16 Squadron Commanders have a VERY big say in how a cadet may take tests. If your son has IEP from his school, the unit may benefit from any insights within. As you states he has at least some sort of disability, the cadet can also be placed into Category III or IV for PT which may excuse him from all or some of the training, temporarily or permanently.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
He is a soldier in his uniform.

No, he is a CAP Cadet in his uniform.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
Although others don't see it that way.

Because it's not.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
I have been dropping him off/picking him up. I was told this was fine.

As an older sibling of an autistic child, what were you thinking as a parent? I can already see where this is going and at least half the blame of ANYTHING down below is on you. People with disabilities by no means need constant hand holding, but you have to make sure they ARE fine before letting them go on their way alone.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
(The Commander and recruiter have full info on the limitations ~S~ has.

In that case they should have been acting upon his limitations to resolve your belief that he will never progress in CAP. That's on them.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
I was told he would be accepted at his level.

As Mandated by our Bylaws and federal law.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
Imagine my heart break after finding out that ~S~ has spent several meetings in the lobby.

Troublesome from the CAP standpoint, but even worse on the parental side.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
A friend advised me after questioning why he was never back with the squadron. The reason, ~S~ lost his ID card. He has been humiliated about losing his card and was to upset to tell me that he had to buy a new one.

IIRC, the basic membership card is free? Either way, is this friend a member in the unit? What was this "friend" doing for those weeks when a cadet was alone, unattended in the lobby? This story is just completely weird.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
After finding out about this I asked him what he does for an hour and a half while waiting for me to pick him up.

At the very least CAP meetings have to be 2 hours long, with 2.5 being the norm, and some running 3. Hour and a half sounds a bit short to me...

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
He told me he opens the door for anyone coming in or out.

That's great, but perhaps as a parent you should have been asking "How was the meeting this week?" if you couldn't be bothered to observe personally?

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
He does it proudly in his CAP uniform. He is happy to serve in any capacity and came up with a "job" for himself.

The problem here doesn't even...sigh...

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
The same friend that alerted me to this situation also told me that anyone in the squadron could have helped ~S~ print out a temporary card. They also could have let me know to go online and purchase the new card for $1.00.

Lack of the card also doesn't mean he could not participate in CAP meetings...

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
It has also been discovered that the commander advised cadet staff and senior staff from letting him past the lobby until he had a new card.

If true, the Squadron Commander and EVERY SM in the unit need to be removed from our organization. Someone should have spoken up as that is simply not correct.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
Several people were emailed concerning ~S~ and him not having the ID and advising staff to check him at the door.

I don't understand what this sentence means...

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
How upsetting that rather than help him print a card they went out of their way to make sure he did not get help.

How upsetting that as an involved parent you could have done the same.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
Those in place to help him are the ones that are trying to destroy his self esteem.

The parents are part of that "help" group.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
Thankfully like the teen above , ~S~ found a way around them and was still providing a service, even though he did not get CAP credit for it. We are moving soon to NJ  and hope to find a squadron that will have compassion for ~S~.

He doesn't need compassion, he needs to be accommodated to the possible extent within CAP regulations. Any unit can and should be doing that.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
For the teen above, good luck with your endeavors you will go far in life for standing up for your convictions.

Don't take that advice. I've done it many times, and the last time cost me just under $2,000 dollars in fines. Just don't do it. Use your head, pick you battles, etc etc. Don't fall on your sword over EVERY little issue.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
If you are reprimanded for your efforts, it is a SHAME on CAP, not on you.

If you DO get reprimanded for your stupid choices, take it as a valuable life lesson.

MSG Mac

Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 07, 2012, 04:14:30 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 07, 2012, 04:01:03 PM
Seriously - what's next?  Occupy HGA?

It worked in Taps....though they had real rifles.

Why do so many people say I saw it in a movie as an excuse to justify something?
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Pylon

Quote from: MSG Mac on December 10, 2012, 08:22:14 AM
Why do so many people say I saw it in a movie as an excuse to justify something?

Because better reasons don't exist.   :P
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: MSG Mac on December 10, 2012, 08:22:14 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 07, 2012, 04:14:30 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 07, 2012, 04:01:03 PM
Seriously - what's next?  Occupy HGA?

It worked in Taps....though they had real rifles.

Why do so many people say I saw it in a movie as an excuse to justify something?

I wasn't justifying it. I do believe both posts are tongue-in-cheek.

Nathan

It's a simple fact that all cadets who are bad at picking their battles will learn of their deficiency in CAP.

I was terrible at this as a cadet. Even when I was right, I still got nothing accomplished, because I fought battles I couldn't possibly win. I made more enemies than friends, and when I did win a battle, I gained very little from it, usually the satisfaction of saying, "I told you so."

Luckily, I developed the skills quickly enough that I actually had gained some political capital when I needed it. But it was a lesson I had to learn on my own. When you're on a stupid crusade, anyone who tells you that you're being dumb is the enemy, and it's tough to get through. Sometimes, you just have to wait for experience.
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

arajca

From the CAP Cadet Blog feed:


A special message for the Honor Guard Academy and overall CAP cadet communities

The Honor Guard Academy has successfully introduced hundreds of cadets to honor guard principles and the drug-free message over the past several years, thanks to a dedicated staff who've done a superb job. Many have since asked, Why did the National Commander announce a strategic pause for HGA in 2013?
The primary rationale for this strategic pause is funding. HGA is an expensive program for participating cadets and for CAP as an organization. Despite the HGA staff's best efforts, HGA has become one of the most expensive cadet activities, costing participants (at $500 for tuition alone) roughly twice what other national activities charge. CAP National Headquarters has underwritten HGA with $12,500 in subsidies ($125 per cadet) annually from an ever-tightening budget for national cadet activities. Unfortunately, financial realities drive cadet activity decisions to a large extent. Anyone who follows the news will understand that with Washington likely to cut Air Force (and therefore CAP) funding in 2013, the Cadet Program's financial challenges are ever more pressing.
Another factor in deciding for the strategic pause is cadet demand. Last year, over 30% of the slots available to first year students went unfilled. No doubt, HGA's high tuition has a part to play in that. Not surprisingly then, 75% of HGA students came from the eastern US, and only 20 western US cadets participated. Again, despite the best efforts of an incredible staff of volunteers, the data indicates a need to rethink the Maryland-based HGA model.
The good news is that CAP remains committed to the principle of providing honor guard and color guard training to help cadets – especially younger cadets – develop their leadership and character. In fact, HGA's financial challenges might actually point a way toward an even brighter future for cadets who are enthusiastic about drill and ceremonies.
Toward that end, for Summer '13, we'll make available to each Region a financial stipend to support their conducting an honor guard and/or color guard training activity. We are confident that this regional model will attract more cadets because the activity will be within driving range for many, thereby expanding the HGA program's reach beyond its predominantly east coast market. Regions already conduct "Region Cadet Leadership Schools" that primarily serve older cadets, and it is conceivable that at some locations a Region honor guard activity could share facilities, adult staff, and other resources with the RCLS program.
(Region DCPs, please standby for detailed information on how to take advantage of this new opportunity.)
Yes, from the perspective of the individual cadets who had been looking forward to the 2013 Honor Guard Academy in Maryland, this news is a disappointment. But it is also an opportunity for them and other HGA alumni to take a leadership role in starting new programs in their Regions. From the strategic perspective of how CAP brings the honor guard experience to the largest possible audience of cadets at costs the cadets' families and CAP Inc. can afford, the new regional model might be the way to go.  Maj Gen Carr wants to give this approach a try for 2013, and we ask the HGA community and the Regions to show their support.   
If you are interested in participating in the development of a regional based program please contact our National Cadet Special Activities Officer, Lt Col Joe Winter at winterjoe@msn.com.
Thank you for your continued support and dedication in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program.


Curt LaFond, NHQ/CP
Col Craig Treadwell, CAP/CP


Майор Хаткевич

Great letter. The thing is, even as Eclipse mentioned, we have a Naval base here in IL and we could in theory work something out with the Navy contacts. But, where would all these dedicated SMs come from to staff a 2 week event? As much as I loved the program, I know I wouldn't be able to dedicate that much time at this stage in my life.

HGjunkie

Most of the basic material could be covered in 3-4 days if you focus hard enough, since then you theoretically wouldn't have to spend a week+ to plan/prepare for a graduation ceremony.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: HGjunkie on December 17, 2012, 08:13:18 PM
Most of the basic material could be covered in 3-4 days if you focus hard enough, since then you theoretically wouldn't have to spend a week+ to plan/prepare for a graduation ceremony.

Even if it's a week long event, between things like NESA/local encampments, a lot of your cadet programs pushers are already maxing out family time/ vacation time at work to get it done. This would add on top of it all for the regulars.

PA Guy

Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 17, 2012, 08:09:59 PM
Great letter. The thing is, even as Eclipse mentioned, we have a Naval base here in IL and we could in theory work something out with the Navy contacts. But, where would all these dedicated SMs come from to staff a 2 week event? As much as I loved the program, I know I wouldn't be able to dedicate that much time at this stage in my life.

Also, it would then become a Midwest centric activity. Transportation costs would still be an issue although I suspect any activity more than 500 miles away would have this problem.

PA Guy

Quote from: HGjunkie on December 17, 2012, 08:13:18 PM
Most of the basic material could be covered in 3-4 days if you focus hard enough, since then you theoretically wouldn't have to spend a week+ to plan/prepare for a graduation ceremony.

Did I understand you correctly? A "week+" of NHGA is spent just planning and prep for the graduation ceremony?

Eclipse

Quote from: PA Guy on December 17, 2012, 09:37:52 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 17, 2012, 08:09:59 PM
Great letter. The thing is, even as Eclipse mentioned, we have a Naval base here in IL and we could in theory work something out with the Navy contacts. But, where would all these dedicated SMs come from to staff a 2 week event? As much as I loved the program, I know I wouldn't be able to dedicate that much time at this stage in my life.

Also, it would then become a Midwest centric activity. Transportation costs would still be an issue although I suspect any activity more than 500 miles away would have this problem.

Only for those in GLR - other regions would need to find their own locations.  Frankly I would think Wright-Patt would make
more sense logistically for GLR, but I also understand lodging is an ongoing problem for everyone their, not the least of which is
the USAF themselves.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: PA Guy on December 17, 2012, 09:42:18 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 17, 2012, 08:13:18 PM
Most of the basic material could be covered in 3-4 days if you focus hard enough, since then you theoretically wouldn't have to spend a week+ to plan/prepare for a graduation ceremony.

Did I understand you correctly? A "week+" of NHGA is spent just planning and prep for the graduation ceremony?

I don't see why / how this was ever more then a week long.

"That Others May Zoom"

HGjunkie

Yes, you heard that right. Typically one week (plus or minus a day or two) of HGA is reserved for planning the rifle performance graduation at the end as the primary focus.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Майор Хаткевич

To be fair, at least in 2005, we didn't just plan the graduation performance. Classes, more practice, etc took place

Eclipse

Quote from: HGjunkie on December 17, 2012, 10:15:10 PM
Yes, you heard that right. Typically one week (plus or minus a day or two) of HGA is reserved for planning the rifle performance graduation at the end as the primary focus.

You're going to have a hard time getting support outside the HG community for something which would appear to be essentially boilerplate from year-to-year.

Most encampments are able to get cadets who can barely march to the point of looking reasonable at the Pass In Review in a day or two's worth of practice, but then few reinvent the wheel year-to-year.

"That Others May Zoom"

spaatzmom

Quote from: PA Guy on December 17, 2012, 09:42:18 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 17, 2012, 08:13:18 PM
Most of the basic material could be covered in 3-4 days if you focus hard enough, since then you theoretically wouldn't have to spend a week+ to plan/prepare for a graduation ceremony.

Did I understand you correctly? A "week+" of NHGA is spent just planning and prep for the graduation ceremony?


Please reread the post.  It was a way of cutting down the time frame, however ramming info down cadets throats quickly hardly yields the desired results.  There are so many classes, performance practices and things to learn that it does take the two weeks to do it all.  Graduation practice is incorporated into other classes also.  As is the day starts at 5 or 6 am and ends at 11pm,  with little down time for anyone, cadet or staff.

SamFranklin

Q:  How long does an honor guard or color guard training program need to be?

A:   Tell me what objectives you want to accomplish, and to what standard / level of perfection, and that'll help you estimate how much time the school needs.


a2capt

Quote from: spaatzmom on December 17, 2012, 10:30:49 PMAs is the day starts at 5 or 6 am and ends at 11pm,  with little down time for anyone, cadet or staff.
Sounds darn near like encampment was for me. XO didn't sleept until way after that sometimes, taking the first round of CQ, using the walk to keep up, finish the days needs.


It was worth it though. Took 10 years to find a CAP event that kicked my butt. NCC and Encampment. I was -done- at the end.  What plane ride? I remember nothing. :)


Crammed schedule. If HGA is anything like what I've read in the past, that schedule is -packed- to the hilt. If anything, there needs to be less.

Майор Хаткевич


Eclipse

Quote from: SamFranklin on December 17, 2012, 10:37:09 PM
Q:  How long does an honor guard or color guard training program need to be?

A:   Tell me what objectives you want to accomplish, and to what standard / level of perfection, and that'll help you estimate how much time the school needs.

Reasonable performance for entry-level cadets, not Unknown Soldier Guard level.  Like many other NCSAs, it should give a good foundation that
can then be brought back to the unit to mentor others.

The basic techniques can be taught well at the unit level, proficiency comes with experience.  This is honestly the first time I'd realized that HGA was two
full weeks.

"That Others May Zoom"

Texas Raiders

What ceremonial duty is most common for CAP HG/ceremonial details?  From personal experience, I would tend to believe that color guard would be the most common. 
SM Randy Patterson
DPO
399th Comp. Squadron,  Danbury, CT "Yankee Hatters"
IAFF Local 1567
USCG- 1998-2010   Boatswain's Mate
Former member of the old 273rd/ Mid-County Composite Squadron, Nederland, Texas- 1994-2000

spaatzmom

Quote from: Texas Raiders on December 18, 2012, 06:21:37 PM
What ceremonial duty is most common for CAP HG/ceremonial details?  From personal experience, I would tend to believe that color guard would be the most common.

The answer would vary greatly with the community outreach achieved with the powers that be.  Example, in Fl. when my son was the C/NCOIC and the SM Wing HG Commander, both at wing level, funerals were the mainstay of the HG.  Color Guard and cordons for various events were next.  Fl has a very large Veteran population ans several active military bases that the HG would support in addition to what was requested of them within CAP.

Texas Raiders

#82
Quote from: spaatzmom on December 18, 2012, 06:46:56 PM
Quote from: Texas Raiders on December 18, 2012, 06:21:37 PM
What ceremonial duty is most common for CAP HG/ceremonial details?  From personal experience, I would tend to believe that color guard would be the most common.

The answer would vary greatly with the community outreach achieved with the powers that be.  Example, in Fl. when my son was the C/NCOIC and the SM Wing HG Commander, both at wing level, funerals were the mainstay of the HG.  Color Guard and cordons for various events were next.  Fl has a very large Veteran population ans several active military bases that the HG would support in addition to what was requested of them within CAP.

Thanks for the response.  I agree.  I can certainly see why FL Wing's HG keeps busy with funeral details.  A lot of people retire to FL and live out their remaining days.  I have mixed feelings regarding CAP providing funeral detail to non-CAP members.  I believe that a veteran deserves to have honors rendered by his/her respective branch and that branch should do everything within their power to provide them.  However, I fully support CAP rendered honors in times when the veteran's branch is unable to provide them. 


Anyone else care to chime in with their bid for most commonly used CAP ceremonial detail?
SM Randy Patterson
DPO
399th Comp. Squadron,  Danbury, CT "Yankee Hatters"
IAFF Local 1567
USCG- 1998-2010   Boatswain's Mate
Former member of the old 273rd/ Mid-County Composite Squadron, Nederland, Texas- 1994-2000

Майор Хаткевич

Flag ceremonies, parades, annual parties, big unit ceremonies. That's our extent.

BillB

I have been to several veterans funerals at Florida National cemeteries, including one that was a former CAP member. And I have never seen a CAP Honor Guard or even color guard at these.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

spaatzmom

Quote from: BillB on December 19, 2012, 01:00:37 AM
I have been to several veterans funerals at Florida National cemeteries, including one that was a former CAP member. And I have never seen a CAP Honor Guard or even color guard at these.

Sorry you missed the dozens that were performed many at National cemeteries.  I remember one specifically at Bushnell for a CAP member from the Palatka area.  They had a CAP flyover too, it was very nicely done by the cadets.

Honor Guard services need to be requested by the family.  I am sure that there are many families unaware they can have this service provided and then there are some who may not want it, whatever the case, it is up to them.