Moral dilemma

[Cjthom1728]

I have recruited two people for CAP and it was just brought to my attention that I could receive a ribbon. Should I wait to be recognized for my achievement or would it be of poor character to notify my CO of what I've done?   

[EMT-83]

No dilemma. You should put in for the award if you're eligible. Chances are no one else is keeping track.

This isn't a situation where your actions are subject to evaluation. You did "X", there regulations state you should get "Y". Just like a promotion or achievement award.

[Eclipse]

Ditto, just mention it to your CC.

You can also check eServices and see if you already received the credit.

Not a big deal.

[lordmonar]

There is NO MORAL DILEMMA for asking for recognistion (i.e. asking for an award or promotion) that you feel you have earned!

[abdsp51]

No dilema and will look good to take the initiative.

[Abby.L]

I have recruited two people for CAP and it was just brought to my attention that I could receive a ribbon. Should I wait to be recognized for my achievement or would it be of poor character to notify my CO of what I've done?   

Would you wait for your red service ribbon 3 years after you joined? No. You take a 2A to your commander and he can sign off on it. Same thing with the recruiter ribbon.

[MSgt Van]

If your name is on tbeir application as a referral i'd think it would show up in e-services. I thought mine did.

[titanII]

You take a 2A to your commander and he can sign off on it

That's exactly what I did to procure my Recruiter ribbon. Filled out the CAPF-2A with the names of the people I had recruited in the "Comments" section, and gave it to my commander. Easy as pie.

[EMT-83]

If your name is on tbeir application as a referral i'd think it would show up in e-services. I thought mine did.

This is not tracked at NHQ. Unless someone else at the squadron is paying attention, it's up to the individual member.

[lordmonar]

If your name is on tbeir application as a referral i'd think it would show up in e-services. I thought mine did.

This is not tracked at NHQ. Unless someone else at the squadron is paying attention, it's up to the individual member.

No...actually if the CAP ID number of the person recruiting is put on the membership application.....and NHQ enters it into the system...your commander can pull up a recruiting report that shows who recruited who.....It does not STORE the information for very long though (I don't know for how long it is stored)....so your personnel officer should be pulling the report periodicly and updating the records.

[EMT-83]

Exactly. If you're counting on the information being available in eServices or trusting that someone is actually pulling reports and connecting the dots, you just might be out of luck.

[Eclipse]

The other thing is that I've known CC's who will backfill their own CAP ID into the recruiting field if its empty, even if they had nothing to
do with recruiting the member.  It may be "allowed" but I don't think it's cricket.

In that case, if the member has already been credited elsewhere, the boat has sailed.

[68w20]

+1 to all, but I have one point to add for clarification.  Not only is it acceptable for you to put in for this award, the regulation (39-3) states that you are responsible for submitting the CAPF 2A in order to receive it. 

[Flying Pig]

Let someone know.  Its not an issue.  I had a few cadets embarrassed or uncomfortable about asking the same thing.  Problem is....I had no idea they rated the ribbon!

[SARDOC]

The other thing is that I've known CC's who will backfill their own CAP ID into the recruiting field if its empty, even if they had nothing to
do with recruiting the member.  It may be "allowed" but I don't think it's cricket.

In that case, if the member has already been credited elsewhere, the boat has sailed.

I try to make sure that the recruiting block is listed on every application.  It's the person that most influenced this person to join.  This could be the person that greeted the person at the door and just showed them around as well as explain the mission.  Sometimes it can be my PAO who fields contacts from the public and gets the member to come out. If it is the Squadron Commander who explained the program and got the person to commit...than the squadron commander it is.

[Eclipse]

If it is the Squadron Commander who explained the program and got the person to commit...than the squadron commander it is.

No problem there at all - I'm talking about the situations where the block was just left blank, the unit CC had no influence, but
pens in his number anyway.

[Fubar]

No problem there at all - I'm talking about the situations where the block was just left blank, the unit CC had no influence, but
pens in his number anyway.

Our recruiting officer pre-fills his CAPID number on the application to prevent any chance of that happening 

[MSG Mac]

No problem there at all - I'm talking about the situations where the block was just left blank, the unit CC had no influence, but
pens in his number anyway.

Our recruiting officer pre-fills his CAPID number on the application to prevent any chance of that happening 

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong

[Майор Хаткевич]

I don't know how it's run out in the Real-world CAP, but is it standard procedure for Recruiting officers to get credit for non-member referred members? By that I mean: someone who found the unit on their own, not via contact with ANY current CAP member.

[bflynn]

I wouldn't think so.  Does a sales man get commission if someone walks into a store and buys product off the shelf?

For the OP - it strikes me that you're not comfortable tooting your own horn.  It's ok here, you're not bragging, you're getting a ribbon for what you did.  You did it, it is due to you.  If you don't speak up, it's very likely nobody else will.

If you're not comfortable with that, perhaps if you just phrase it as a question to your squadron commander?

[lordmonar]

Depends.....on how much work the recruiting officer actually does.

Because I know that USAF recruiters get credit...even if they don't have to "sell" the USAF.  He does the paperwork...he get's the credit.

One of the reasons why I think that we should have a "service/hours" option to the recruiting ribbon....spend a year as a recruiting officer....get the ribbon/device.....that way you are not tempted to "steal" or pencil whip recruiting credit.

[MSG Mac]

I don't know how it's run out in the Real-world CAP, but is it standard procedure for Recruiting officers to get credit for non-member referred members? By that I mean: someone who found the unit on their own, not via contact with ANY current CAP member.

The F12 and 15 both ask the new member. Is there someone who was instrumental in your joining? Not who processed the paperwork. Definetly we shouldn't be prefilling the form before the person walks in the door.

[Private Investigator]

I don't know how it's run out in the Real-world CAP, but is it standard procedure for Recruiting officers to get credit for non-member referred members? By that I mean: someone who found the unit on their own, not via contact with ANY current CAP member.

The F12 and 15 both ask the new member. Is there someone who was instrumental in your joining? Not who processed the paperwork. Definetly we shouldn't be prefilling the form before the person walks in the door.

+1 I concur.

[Shotgun]

I've tried to stress to my units that any member can submit the paperwork recommending any member (including their self) for an award. In fact, for some some awards like the Red Service Ribbon and the Command Service Ribbon it is the individual member's responsibility to submit it on their own behalf!

CAPR 39-3 AWARD OF CAP MEDALS, RIBBONS, AND CERTIFICATES 7 February 2012 
19. Administration Procedures for Award of Activity and Service Ribbons. The individual member is responsible for preparing and submitting to the unit commander CAP Form 2a, Request for and Approval of Personnel Actions, when the requirements for an activity or service ribbon have been completed.

[Eclipse]

RSR's and CSR's are self-actualizing.

[RogueLeader]

RSR's and CSR's are self-actualizing.

cite please.

They occur naturally, but still require a CAPF 2a to be worn.

[Eclipse]

As far as I'm concerned, anything posted in eServices has already been approved by a higher authority than the respective member's
commander, etc., and need no further authorization.  Encampments, RSR, CSR, the various PD awards like Garber, Loening, the O'Davis, etc.
In fact, there's very few circumstances where a 2a is necessary anymore, because just about anything you wear is approved through some
other process than that.

Same goes for ES awards like wings and GT (though now they are approved in eservices, anyway).

Expecting someone to submit in those cases is just an exercise in wasted time.  Also, to expect that someone submit an award for approval,
sets up the possibility of denial, which is not possible by the regulations in these cases.

Validation of a "FIND", summary of missions for the SAR ribbon, validation of the DR-V, yes.  The others, no.

[SarDragon]

eServices is not always the final authority for the Red Service ribbon. Depending on where you look, my joined date shows up as 1964, or 1987, or both.

I have broken service, with a six year break, so my Groupies wanted paper substantiation for my latest 2a. Additionally, that award does not show up in eServices, since the approval authority is Group or Wing.

[Eclipse]

^ OK, but that's a different story. 

We can come up with any number of situations where something might need substantiation, usually stemming from breaks in membership, but in the typical scenario it doesn't, especially for members with continuous service since about 2000.

[MSG Mac]

I've tried to stress to my units that any member can submit the paperwork recommending any member (including their self) for an award. In fact, for some some awards like the Red Service Ribbon and the Command Service Ribbon it is the individual member's responsibility to submit it on their own behalf!

CAPR 39-3 AWARD OF CAP MEDALS, RIBBONS, AND CERTIFICATES 7 February 2012 
19. Administration Procedures for Award of Activity and Service Ribbons. The individual member is responsible for preparing and submitting to the unit commander CAP Form 2a, Request for and Approval of Personnel Actions, when the requirements for an activity or service ribbon have been completed.

If you have a good Personnel Officer he should be able to screen for both Red Service and Recruiting ribbons on a regular basis and have a monthly award for each. Simple process of downloading the recruiting report from E-Services and reviewing the Membership Report for 2, 5, year intervals. Napolean was right about the practical and morale purposes of giving awards. About the only thing he was right about. 

[Eclipse]

I disagree with that, but it doesn't change those kinds of awards being self-actualizing.

[Private Investigator]

If you have a good Personnel Officer he should be able to screen for both Red Service and Recruiting ribbons on a regular basis and have a monthly award for each. Simple process of downloading the recruiting report from E-Services and reviewing the Membership Report for 2, 5, year intervals. Napolean was right about the practical and morale purposes of giving awards. About the only thing he was right about.

+1 on a "good" Personnel Officer.

For example, the Red Service Ribbon for 20 years (and 30 and 40, 50 gets a plaque from NHQ) gets a special certificate but 75% of the Unit Personnel Officers never put anyone in for the certificate which is suitable for framing.

[SarDragon]

I've gotten mine (based only on my most recent membership period) without any action locally. About three or four months after the anniversary date, a certificate would show up in the mail.

[ol'fido]

I don't like putting myself in for things such as ribbons, awards, or certificates, etc. For instance, I recently passed the 31st year of official service. I joined originally in Sept of 77 but due to paperwork being lost somewhere out there in the chain I was finally made official in Feb of 79. I did not renew in 1990 while I was on AD, but rejoined in May of 92 to present. I still haven't put in a 2a for my 30 year RSR. My ribbon still has the 25 pin on it. Same thing with my encampment ribbon. I think I have one silver triangle on it after 17 encampments. It's just one of those things that if I get around to it sometime I'll get it but I'm not sweating it.

OTOH, I am pursuing getting an Achievement Award that I was recommended for at encampment in 2009. I wouldn't care there either but two people working for me were also put in for it. I have been trying to run it down all this time so that they get it. I finally hand carried paperwork to the eval last Aug and got the group commander(at the time of the recommendation) and the wing commander's signature on it (just in case). I am still trying to get the certificates printed out and delivered to the encampment next month to give it to them.

MY OWN FEELING IS THAT SINCE THIS IS THE ONE WAY THAT WE GET "PAID" SO TO SPEAK THAT COMMANDERS SHOULD BE RIGHT ON TOP OF MAKING SURE THAT ALL THIS IS DOCUMENTED AND SUBMITTED ASAP. THIS WOULD GO A LONG TOWARDS AVOIDING THE SITUATION WHERE MEMBERS ARE PUT IN THE AWKWARD POSITION OF HAVING TO GO AFTER THEM ON THEIR OWN.

I know it made me feel like a "careerist" and a "garritrooper" to go after my own award even though I did it to make sure the people working for me got their awards. I don''t like that feeling.

[Private Investigator]

OTOH, I am pursuing getting an Achievement Award that I was recommended for at encampment in 2009. I wouldn't care there either but two people working for me were also put in for it. I have been trying to run it down all this time so that they get it. I finally hand carried paperwork to the eval last Aug and got the group commander(at the time of the recommendation) and the wing commander's signature on it (just in case). I am still trying to get the certificates printed out and delivered to the encampment next month to give it to them.

MY OWN FEELING IS THAT SINCE THIS IS THE ONE WAY THAT WE GET "PAID" SO TO SPEAK THAT COMMANDERS SHOULD BE RIGHT ON TOP OF MAKING SURE THAT ALL THIS IS DOCUMENTED AND SUBMITTED ASAP. THIS WOULD GO A LONG TOWARDS AVOIDING THE SITUATION WHERE MEMBERS ARE PUT IN THE AWKWARD POSITION OF HAVING TO GO AFTER THEM ON THEIR OWN.

I do not think you can put in for anything after two years of the event. CAPR 39-3 Section A #5 (page 4)

Some Commanders are really good at recognizing their people and others are really bad. You have to educate them. Some Commanders even with a military background do not recommend people for awards.

[ol'fido]

The paperwork was done in 2009. It fell into the wing hq blackhole es. It has just been a long drawn out process to get the paperwork straight and get the certificates printed out.

[James Shaw]

I do not think you can put in for anything after two years of the event. CAPR 39-3 Section A #5 (page 4)

I believe this is also going to depend on the Commander of the Squadron and up. If other members of the same activity received these and the paperwork was filed for it and simply lost for the individual, then it could be done. Has to be more of a justificaiton then simply "realizing" an event from several years ago.

[ol'fido]

Let's keep our eyes on the ball, guys.

[jimmydeanno]

It does not STORE the information for very long though (I don't know for how long it is stored)....

I have members on my report from 2003, I don't think they dump it.

[Pylon]

I wouldn't think so.  Does a sales man get commission if someone walks into a store and buys product off the shelf

It's certainly possible.  I've seen a dealership which has a sales rep who handles all the online listings of cars on various websites (takes photos, writes descriptions, manages the active listings on various sites, etc.) so when a customer comes into the dealership off the street and says "I heard about the car online" they get referred to this specific sales guy dedicated to web sales and he gets the credit and commission for the sale.

So, if the recruiting officer takes the time to go out and put up flyers around town, or spends time crafting a nice recruiting section of the website, or puts listings for open duty assignments on volunteermatch.org and a referral for a member walks in off the street from one of those passive recruiting efforts of his or hers?  Yeah, I'd say give the recruiting officer (or whoever did the work for those outreach efforts) the credit for it.   Project officer puts together a rockin' open house and three people join?  If the recruits walked in off the street and one of the other sqdn members didn't bring them, give the credit to the project officer since.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Pylon,

That makes sense, but I was specifically wondering about the "I saw some pictures, did a google search, here I am" types.

[lordmonar]

Pylon,

That makes sense, but I was specifically wondering about the "I saw some pictures, did a google search, here I am" types.

Six of one/half dozen of the other.

So long as the commander/recruiting officer/admin/personnel officer is not taking credit FROM someone else....who really cares?