Dark Blue Uniforms

[Dragoon]

The Blue M-65 jacket by Propper is sold by a fair number of police/surplus shops and looks pretty good.

But truthfully, most of our members just play the "safety" card in normal BDUs and wear whatever jacket they want when it's cold anyway.

[DNall]

The Blue M-65 jacket by Propper is sold by a fair number of police/surplus shops and looks pretty good.

But truthfully, most of our members just play the "safety" card in normal BDUs and wear whatever jacket they want when it's cold anyway.

What's the price on that though. And while true with uniforms, obviously that's viewed very badly by the military (who are issued their expensive outterwear in new condition & don't understand why we look like crap) & professional responders (who expect to see military standards & believe that the training & experience will be in line with that also). That's a good angle to take back to AF. "Our people are losing credibility cause they look like azz, they're making you look bad in uniform cause they can't get the right items w/o spending a small fortune, and there's a legitimate safety concern having these people out in harsh conditions on your orders & not able to use appropriate gear. Hence you should give us lots of surplus Goretex & other uniform & mission related gear so we can doa better job for you w/o embarassing you." Always use your justifications to show them how something you want is the answer to what they want. Connect the dots & get what you want.

[lordmonar]

Okay then.....in an effort to become uniformed and present a good image to both the USAF and other agnecies...we need to drop the USAF style uniforms all together.  Go with the TPU, BBDU and Blue Flight Suit.

All would then be moot.

Except that you too have an agenda that wants to find the answere where we would be "closer to the military" and you would lament that such a move would be part of a larger conspiracy to break all ties with the USAF.

Either way....you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[DNall]

Okay then.....in an effort to become uniformed and present a good image to both the USAF and other agnecies...we need to drop the USAF style uniforms all together.  Go with the TPU, BBDU and Blue Flight Suit.

All would then be moot.

Except that you too have an agenda that wants to find the answere where we would be "closer to the military" and you would lament that such a move would be part of a larger conspiracy to break all ties with the USAF.

Either way....you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Am I trying to have my cake & eat it too? I think I'm being quite consistent.

We aren't trying to be unformed with each other though, we're trying to be uniformed with them so as to reinforce our obligation & affiliation to them, but also becuase we can get the stuff from surpluss.

I don't care what uniform people wear perosnally, as long as they wear it professiobnally. I prefer the AF style ones for a couple reasons that are mostly practical. I think the new corporate style uniforms look decent versus the old ones looked like a joke, but for an overall uniform policy I don't like them because I don't the wear rules aren't getting the corp side of CAP to think they are affiliated with the AF and because they are decent they get people who were wearing the AF style to wear these instead & that further errodes the reinforcing the uniforms are meant to do. Hence no progress is being made toward the stated goal.

You want to see that stated goal again, it's in the statements by the exec dir on that whole-CAP approach. I believe you can still find a copy of it archieved at CAPBlog, but you may have to look around a bit. He was quite clear what the current vision is about though, and I frankly agree with that vision, though I disagree with some of the policies, methods, and lack of communication & leadership to carry it thru.

[lordmonar]

Am I trying to have my cake & eat it too? I think I'm being quite consistent.

The saying does not mean that your are being inconsistent only that you can't have two things that are mutually exclusive.  We cannot all be uniform AND be just like the USAF.

We aren't trying to be unformed with each other though, we're trying to be uniformed with them so as to reinforce our obligation & affiliation to them, but also becuase we can get the stuff from surpluss.

But the USAF will not allow us to be uniform with them because we have a bunch of large, beared, long haired SM's.  So the answer is that we be uniformed with our selves in a uniform that mimics the USAF as much as they will let us.

[DNall]

We aren't trying to be unformed with each other though, we're trying to be uniformed with them so as to reinforce our obligation & affiliation to them, but also becuase we can get the stuff from surpluss.

But the USAF will not allow us to be uniform with them because we have a bunch of large, beared, long haired SM's.  So the answer is that we be uniformed with our selves in a uniform that mimics the USAF as much as they will let us.

Why would I need or want to be uniformed with them? There is no such thing as a CAP team. CAP accomplishes nothing alone. It is part of the AF-family in all things, even during corporate missions. Why would I want to reflect being on any other team than that? Obviously I feel that's our central focus & I don't care about other things. If others can't wear the AF-style uniform cause of rules outside our control then, I'm sorry. You do the best you can to keep up by wearing that other stuff in the most squared away format possible, but I'm going to go on ahead & not be held back.

[lordmonar]

We aren't trying to be unformed with each other though, we're trying to be uniformed with them so as to reinforce our obligation & affiliation to them, but also becuase we can get the stuff from surpluss.

But the USAF will not allow us to be uniform with them because we have a bunch of large, beared, long haired SM's.  So the answer is that we be uniformed with our selves in a uniform that mimics the USAF as much as they will let us.

Why would I need or want to be uniformed with them? There is no such thing as a CAP team. CAP accomplishes nothing alone. It is part of the AF-family in all things, even during corporate missions. Why would I want to reflect being on any other team than that? Obviously I feel that's our central focus & I don't care about other things. If others can't wear the AF-style uniform cause of rules outside our control then, I'm sorry. You do the best you can to keep up by wearing that other stuff in the most squared away format possible, but I'm going to go on ahead & not be held back.

And there you have it.

We will always have a split mentality between the CAP and USAF-AUX....because you are so hot in being part of the USAF team...you don't even try to be part of the CAP team.

[Hawk200]

And there you have it.

We will always have a split mentality between the CAP and USAF-AUX....because you are so hot in being part of the USAF team...you don't even try to be part of the CAP team.

Hmmm. What an idea, make it a "us vs. them" mentality. That will really get everybody on board.

Had an idea, just now confirmed....

[DNall]

There is no stand alone CAP team. There's a mechanism to support the AF, that's it. It'd be stupid if the ANG wanted to wear gray uniforms all of a sudden too, and very problematic for them to remember who's boss. CAP has that issue.

I can't tell you what the solution is... seems logial to either enforce a ht/wt/grooming standard for membership or get rid of those standards for the AF-style uniforms.

[lordmonar]

There is no stand alone CAP team. There's a mechanism to support the AF, that's it. It'd be stupid if the ANG wanted to wear gray uniforms all of a sudden too, and very problematic for them to remember who's boss. CAP has that issue.

I can't tell you what the solution is... seems logial to either enforce a ht/wt/grooming standard for membership or get rid of those standards for the AF-style uniforms.

CAP does not want to wear stupid gray uniforms...the USAF is making us wear stupid gray uniforms.  CAP cannot, and I say this again, CAP cannot survive if it enforce weight and grooming standards as a basis of membership.  Once more....CAP canno survive if it enforced weight and grooming standars as a basis for membership.

The USAF will never back off of their insistance that we meet the USAF standards (+10%) as a requirment to wear USAF uniforms.

Finally.....as far as CAP and USAF being a team.....not at the squadron level that is for sure!  I have never tained with them and they are alfully hard to get any support out of.  That said...we do work for/with them at some level.  We do get money from them and some equipment and support.  But don't talk to me out it being more important to be a USAF team vice a CAP team.

That would be like telling your cadets that it is more imporatant to team up with wing instead of your squadron.

Let's get a focus on what's imporatant.  It is much more imporatant that I team with my squadron first and formost.  It is more important that I team with the local ES services in my community than it is with the USAF.  You have the USAF-AUX in your head that you have lost all sense of real team work.

[DNall]

CAP does not want to wear stupid gray uniforms...the USAF is making us wear stupid gray uniforms.  CAP cannot, and I say this again, CAP cannot survive if it enforce weight and grooming standards as a basis of membership.  Once more....CAP canno survive if it enforced weight and grooming standars as a basis for membership.

Now why is that always so automatic & absolute? SDFs do quite well adhereing to ht/wt/grooming, many w/ fitness tandards, & none w/ alternative uniforms. They're lmost exlusively volunteers that don't get jack including job protection, and there's more of them then there are us. How come they can do it & we can't? ACA has standards. They have standards in Canada & the UK, Australia... that's all I know about, but I imagine it's the same elsewhere. How come just about everyone else can do it but CAP can't. I mean I don't know maybe we really can't, but it seems like the same thing you hear when people say we can't have a PFT for GTs, physicals for observers, tough standards for membership in general & officers in particular... any time you talk about change that might leave somebody's buddy out in the cold everyone freaks out. Well, I'm not saying it's the best thing to do, but why is it impossble?

For my personal opinion, I honestly don't know if I support the new militarized alternate uniforms or would rather see totally civilian looking attire. The jury is out to an extent. I know what they were trying to do & that was a good idea, but how they did it was bad, & I don't know if I'm going to like how this shakes out or not.

Let's get a focus on what's imporatant.  It is much more imporatant that I team with my squadron first and formost.  It is more important that I team with the local ES services in my community than it is with the USAF.  You have the USAF-AUX in your head that you have lost all sense of real team work.

See I would flip that around & say you have this idea of a local CAP cop in your head & have lost all sense of teamwork & loyalty to the AF who gives us life & w/o which we don't exist.

I know at the local level you survive on very little outside support, but we don't exist w/o those planes & radios & the funinding that puts them there & makes it possible to run them. Take even a significat chunck of that awat & we whither away & die in a blink. That's the way everyone including Congress wants it.

I'd tell you that you have to stick to your chain of command. Yes you function at your Sq level, but if Gp or Wg issues an order that your Sq CC disagrees with, guess which one you follow. We help others when & where we can, within reason, but we exist as an organization & are allowed to live (funded) to give AF a return on tehir investment. To the extent we use resources on other things that could have been used to benefit the AF. What's the best value judgement there? I don't know that answer, I imagine it varries a bit, but shouldn't the AF come out on top most of the time?

[lordmonar]

Let's get a focus on what's imporatant.  It is much more imporatant that I team with my squadron first and formost.  It is more important that I team with the local ES services in my community than it is with the USAF.  You have the USAF-AUX in your head that you have lost all sense of real team work.

See I would flip that around & say you have this idea of a local CAP cop in your head & have lost all sense of teamwork & loyalty to the AF who gives us life & w/o which we don't exist.

The the USAF needs to start treating us like part of their team...and let us wear their fricking uniforms.  That would solve this stupid problem.

You want to team up with the guy who does not want you...except when it is on his terms.  I don't have time for that.  You can spend your whole life trying to please big blue but it will never happen because of inertia.

I know at the local level you survive on very little outside support, but we don't exist w/o those planes & radios & the funinding that puts them there & makes it possible to run them. Take even a significat chunck of that awat & we whither away & die in a blink. That's the way everyone including Congress wants it.

No...not true...we are NOT dependant on the USAF for funding....not if we really wanted to be.  Heck we could just self fund and use member owned aircraft and do with out the funding all togther.  Stop kissing the USAF's butt, because they give us $20M to do a job that would cost them much more.

I'd tell you that you have to stick to your chain of command. Yes you function at your Sq level, but if Gp or Wg issues an order that your Sq CC disagrees with, guess which one you follow. We help others when & where we can, within reason, but we exist as an organization & are allowed to live (funded) to give AF a return on tehir investment. To the extent we use resources on other things that could have been used to benefit the AF. What's the best value judgement there? I don't know that answer, I imagine it varries a bit, but shouldn't the AF come out on top most of the time?

No....the American People should come out on top.

[DNall]

We're having a whole different discussion we've had a couple times already & is off topic. I mean I happy to discuss it again if we need to keep doing this, but I don't think everyone else wants to watch, again. We obviously have very different view as to what CAP means & why it exists. That's unfortunate, but hardly suprising.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dennis:

I tend to agree that CAP is hurt by the USAF "+ 10 percent" weight standards.  Whether we can or cannot survive under them, I don't know, but it hurts us.

The CG Aux and most SDF's take a much more liberal approach, making the overall appearance the key determiner, not a rigid weight standard.  Creative tailoring is specified in the CG regs as one way to achieve the desired professional look.

Also, the USAF standards that we cannot exceed by more than 10 percent are the basic training entry standards.  That's tough for us over-50 guys.

I would like to see a more realistic standard, perhaps one based on a 10 percent allowance over USAF standards but adjusted for age and calculated body fat composition.

[MIKE]

The CG Aux and most SDF's take a much more liberal approach, making the overall appearance the key determiner, not a rigid weight standard.  Creative tailoring is specified in the CG regs as one way to achieve the desired professional look.

Having now attended some division and district functions, I'm not so sure this is the best approach.

[Dragoon]

I'm interested in dressing like the guys I work with.

Not the guys I talk to over the phone in AFRCC.  The guys I work with.

And that group, by and large are other members of the Civil Air Patrol.  Those are my teammates - from the IC down to the ground team members and scanners.

It would be nice to dress like USAF, but truthfully, I very seldom work side by side with USAF.  And if I did, my "officer" grade would actually get in the way.  After all, it would not correctly show my place in the USAF heirarchy, nor correctly indicate my authority.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm interested in dressing like the guys I work with.

Not the guys I talk to over the phone in AFRCC.  The guys I work with.

And that group, by and large are other members of the Civil Air Patrol.  Those are my teammates - from the IC down to the ground team members and scanners.

It would be nice to dress like USAF, but truthfully, I very seldom work side by side with USAF.  And if I did, my "officer" grade would actually get in the way.  After all, it would not correctly show my place in the USAF heirarchy, nor correctly indicate my authority.

That's a good take Dragoon.  I'm not sure how much officer rank "Gets in the way," though.  When I have worked with USAF folks it is mostly with other officers or senior NCO's, and there was a mutual recogniton of professionalism that transcended the insignias we wore. 

Also, we are starting an augmentation program of sorts here in Florida at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, and the Air Force WANTS us to look like them to the extent legally possible.  They have asked that we wear flight suits if aircrew or missile qualified, and BDU's if not, which is their uniform of the day.  They have some NCO's left who escort the tours of historic launch sites, and we are replacing the ones who have been moved to other duties.  The USAF wants CAP and USAF tour escorts to be completely interchangeable and compatable.  Leave the golf shirts on the golf course for this mission.

It feels good to be treated like a member of the family.

And, with the demands on USAF personnel, if we didn't step up to help out, the tours of the historic launch sites would be cancelled.  This has happened frequently already with the shortage of AF escorts.  Keeping up public support for the Space Program is in the USAF's interest, and is, frankly, part of our CAP mission too.

[Dragoon]

I think you're in a unique position - you're helping to put on an Air Force "show", and they want full credit for that show, so they're extremely happy to have CAP guys who will be mistaken for USAF guys.  I assume they would not allow a fat n fuzzy blue jumpsuit guy to play?

Now, here are some other scenarios where it might now work so well.

Let's say we are augmenting a base ops cell.  The duty NCO is, say, an E-7.  A CAP augmentee is assigned to assist him (answering phones and logging stuff).  That guy is a CAP Major.   Seems odd, having an 0-4 work for an E-7.

Or perhaps assisting with KP.  Majors and Lt Col's slinging hash?

Or even loading aircraft - Captains and Majors working for a Senior Airman loadmaster?

It would be almost impossible to imaging an Air Force Officer performing these duties - that's what NCOs and EMs are for. 

Incidentally, I'm not a CGAUX guy, but I thought this line from their manual was interesting

"Members, when working as crew on a CG vessel/boat, shall wear only the member device (Auxiliary emblem) as collar insignia."

This may have something to do with this same issue - CGAUX "officers" working for CG NCOs

[MississippiFlyboy]

SDFs do quite well adhereing to ht/wt/grooming, many w/ fitness tandards, & none w/ alternative uniforms. They're almost exlusively volunteers that don't get jack including job protection, and there's more of them then there are us. How come they can do it & we can't? 

There are only about half of the SDFs that enforce weight standards and some don't do well enforcing uniform standards.  Also, many SDFs do have the same job protections and allowances for missing work that the Guard/Reserve get because of the state laws.  And bear in mind that SDFs can be called to state active duty and paid (not that it happens very often in most states) and most have full exchange and base privileges so it's more justified (in theory) to push ht/wt and grooming standards in the SDFs

There are way fewer SDF troops than CAP personnel.  The last number given by the State Guard Association of the United States is around 16,000 for all states.

[RiverAux]

MS is right on SDF numbers....only about 10-15,000.  They do vary quite a bit in physical and uniform requirements.  Some SDFs are basically not much more than paper organizations with no real ongoing missions, while others such as TX and CA are much more the type that get brought up here (very active programs, lots of augmentation, etc.) while the vast majority are in the middle.