What is wrong with NBB headgear?

Started by carnold1836, January 29, 2007, 02:13:46 PM

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carnold1836

I understand dumping the whole Hawk Mountain "bling" jazz but what does everyone have against an optional piece of headgear? It is not called National Blue Beret for nothing.

Just curious, and don't anybody get their noses out of joint trying to be all pissy about why we don't need it. ;D
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

arajca

Going to NBB gets you the following:
1. NCSA ribbon
2. NBB patch
3. blue beret
4. other sundry awards depending on what happens there.

Ask yourself why the blue beret was pulled many years ago. Not becuase of appearence - although that is what many folks bring up now against it. It was becasue far too many NBB attendees developed huge ego problems claiming they were the best, they were equal to military special forces, etc. The beret became the end-all, be-all to these members and they forgot a basic principle in CAP operations - teamwork. If you read the NBB Yahoo! group, there are many posts that admonish those who wear the beret to not develop a swelled head and to keep it in perspective.

DNall

In perspective, it's a freakin airshow. You do some flight line & turn off a bunch of ELTs, so what it doesn't make you special, it doesn't even make you more useful on a mission. Take away the beret & you wouldn't get enough applicants to support the activity. I also understand the looking like AF cops issue which is why not in blues but it's okay in BDUs since they got glow-in-the-dark blue tapes.

Now, I do think it looks good. I do think it's a good billboard to encourage toehr cadets to go to NCSAs, & I do feel for cadets that are awarded it & then unable to wear it, that's crap.

I personally think they should be allowed to wear it in BDUs, but someone needs to take control of that activity & reign them in on the attitude.

Now Hawk Mountain is another & yet somehwat similiar story. The crap they do is just stupid looking. As Nat CC I'd order them to stop wear of such items inside their own wing. You want cords for a state activity, okay. You want a red beret w/ dif flashes for varrious aspect, okay. You want to act stupid & think you're so good you don't need to follow orders, there's the door.

mikeylikey

How can you dump Hawk MTN bling and not Blue Beret.  I was always under the impression that the members who went to Hawk did just alittle more than those that went beret.  Don't forget the hawk junk was created by some of the founding members of the organization.  I agree with having the distinctive items in CAP, I DON'T agree with how some of the membership wears them, nor the arbitrary changes the Wing Commanders make to how those Distinctive articles are to be worn.

Speaking of headgear, what is the policy for a member attending activities outside of their Wing.  I see those PAWG orange awful hats everywhere, when everyone else is wearing BDU Covers.  It gives the appearance that we are not team players.  I say get rid of the policy to allow Region and Wing Commanders to make uniform decisions.  They should have to uphold 39-1, not write supplements to it. 

EXAMPLE:  PAWG had DRMO try to dump 5300 new BDU covers in various sizes, which could have provided for the entire wing membership.  Instead the Wing Commander kept the orange baseball cover saying it was tradition.  Instead of tradition, how about giving the membership a break and giving them something for free.  One BDU cover may not sound like a lot, but when the going price for a single embroidered ORANGE ball cap is $7.50, I would like the free BDU Cover!
What's up monkeys?

Pylon

I think NBB is a great opportunity for our cadets and senior members, and I'm glad CAP can be a part of Air Venture.  I am in no way conveying a negative message about NBB nor its participants by my following opinion regarding the wearing of berets.  My opinion on berets in CAP is universal, whether it comes from NBB, Hawk Mountain, or any NCSA or other activity.

When I see someone wearing a beret in CAP, it doesn't tell me much about them.  It doesn't show me they're a better CAP ES person - there are tons of "ES gods" who don't have or wear a beret.  It doesn't let me know that they're currently qualified in a particular area.  It doesn't convey to me any useful information about this person.

It simply means they went to an activity.  Every other activity and NCSA in CAP has a patch on the BDUs and the NCSA or other ribbon on the blues to denote attendance and completion.  Why should NBB be different?

I haven't seen any good reason for beret wear in CAP, other than "it looks cool," "we earned it so we should be able to wear it!" or a variety of other hollow arguments.  It'd be the same argument if I said all IACE participants should wear maroon berets after returning to denote their elite international relations skills.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

carnold1836

#5
Quote from: arajca on January 29, 2007, 02:26:37 PM
It was because far too many NBB attendees developed huge ego problems claiming they were the best, they were equal to military special forces, etc. The beret became the end-all, be-all to these members and they forgot a basic principle in CAP operations - teamwork. If you read the NBB Yahoo! group, there are many posts that admonish those who wear the beret to not develop a swelled head and to keep it in perspective.

To me pulling the beret is like putting a butterfly bandage on a severed limb, it doesn't really fix the problem. It seems that NBB alumni are part of a "cult of personality". Now don't get me wrong not all NBB alums are like that, I have a cadet that went this past summer and is very humble and actually prefers to wear his regular cover most of the time. He likes to wear his beret during special occasions but for the most part he is under standard cover.

That being said I think it is the mind set that needs to be fixed with all of the NCSA alums, since it seems they all, there are exceptions as noted above, have this "better than everybody" attitude. Possibly it is how the program is run, maybe it is the type of person that goes, but I think the mind set needs to be fixed and taking away a defining symbol of a program will not fix the issue.

And although the orange hats are defining for Hawk Mountain, get rid of the lame ascots and white pistol belts. Those do absolutely nothing for you out in the field where your training is supposedly going to be the most useful.

Wow, I think that rambled a little but I hope everyone gets my meaning.
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

DNall

I don't care if God-his-self created it. They didn't create the out of control attitude & behavior, nor did they evolve their bling in line w/ AF social norms. You can use a cord in blues or at a stretch a beret in BDUs, but not both. NBB at least sticks to that, and the attitude isn't nearly as bad. The key though is NBB grads still follow orders. I got a real Army Ranger here as an instructor. I see another hawk grad tell him he's doing it wrong & refusing to do it the way he says I'm throwing them out of the activity & they may or may not bounce on the way out the door.

Second Pylon, nice analogy w/ IACE.

MIKE

The activity is named for the headgear, and the NCSA patch is an 8-Ball wearing a beanie!  If they stopped issuing the beret and renamed the actvity... How many people would still go?
Mike Johnston

Guardrail

I don't have any problem with the NBB headgear (aka the Blue Beret).  It's authorized according to the 39-1. 

However, the St. Alban's cross that is commonly worn on the beret is not authorized.  I could not find it anywhere in the 39-1. 

Chris Jacobs

I don't think this issue is just NBB or hawk mountain.  I think this issue of the huge ego comes from a lot of activities.  I have even seen this problem occur after a cadet goes to encampment.  and more specifically i have seen cadets come back from the honor guard academy and think that they are the most amazing thing to have ever grazed the earth.  they tried to wear their service caps, pistol belts, and every thing else to the meetings.  Not that it doesn't look cool or that they didn't earn it, but they made them selfs stand out and the squadron was no longer uniform.  They also then discuraged a lot of cadets and became a small little clique.  I think a lot of the NCSA's have a huge ego problem and i wouldn't stop at NBB or Hawk mountain.

I went to NBB last year.  I don't even attempt to wear my beret at any meetings or on missions.  I know that the experiences that i got there were great and i am going to use the lessons i learned.  I don't think taking away the beret will solve the problem.  I think that the staff at NBB, especially the returning cadets could do a lot to fix the attitude.  The returning berets could be telling all the cadets from day one that we are there to do a mission and when you go back you should work as a team with your squadron to share your experiences.  because no matter how many hundreds of ELTs you may have turned off every one is different and a cadet or senior from NBB does have information to offer.

Taking the beret, the hawk stuff, and the other activities stuff will not fix the problem.  It is going to need to be fixed while the cadet is at the activity, and more importantly when they get back.  The senior cadet leaders need to stop the attitude thing immediately when they get back and not wait three months when the damage is done.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

DNall

^ right agreed, but you shouldn't be encouraging or rewarding or endorsing such bad behavior with distinctive items. That just serves to perpetuate the problem. If you can reel it in & apply some discipline, then the actual activities themselves are very good.

TankerT

Quote from: Guardrail on January 29, 2007, 04:00:51 PM
I don't have any problem with the NBB headgear (aka the Blue Beret).  It's authorized according to the 39-1. 

However, the St. Alban's cross that is commonly worn on the beret is not authorized.  I could not find it anywhere in the 39-1. 

The St. Alban's cross is authorized.  It was authorized by NHQ (through the proper process) at the August National Board meeting.  (Check the minutes.)  Once that occurred, it became legit.

(It is just that they are behind updating the 39-1)

/Not an NBB graduate.

/Insert Snappy Comment Here

TDHenderson

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on January 29, 2007, 04:16:50 PM
Taking the beret, the hawk stuff, and the other activities stuff will not fix the problem.  It is going to need to be fixed while the cadet is at the activity, and more importantly when they get back.  The senior cadet leaders need to stop the attitude thing immediately when they get back and not wait three months when the damage is done.

Agreed and well said.  But if the Adult Officer/NCO corps at these activities is doing nothing to put it in check (or if they are actually promoting the attitude) then that is also a serious issue to address.

Eclipse

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 29, 2007, 03:13:50 PM
Speaking of headgear, what is the policy for a member attending activities outside of their Wing.  I see those PAWG orange awful hats everywhere, when everyone else is wearing BDU Covers.  It gives the appearance that we are not team players.  I say get rid of the policy to allow Region and Wing Commanders to make uniform decisions.  They should have to uphold 39-1, not write supplements to it. 

Here is my OPINION:
One Wing CC's ability to authorize non-uniform items, especially stuff which would be otherwise banned ENDS at the border of that state.
In other words, PAWG can't authorize ILWG people to break regs and where their HMRSS insignia on a spot on their uniform other than what is indicated in 39-1 or addendums, etc.

With that said, I would not require a member from ANOTHER STATE to make any uniform modifications which he could incur costs or thread.
A hat, however, is a different story.  So if someone from PAWG wanted to attend Spring Encampment, they would have to come with a regular BDU cap and without the fancy belts, etc.  I wouldn't make them remove any patches they could show me authorization for.

Since ILWG has authorized orange hats for ES, that particular part is a non-issue.

Now, with that said...

While NHQ DID authorize wear of the beret for NBB & HMRSS graduates, they did not, and have not, included the rumored verbiage restricting
a local Commander from barring their wear.  So until I see that, they are still verboten around me.  Primarily because few members actually know how to wear them correctly, the break the uniform appearance of the flights, and they engender an undeserved elitist attitude.

It was interesting to me to note this weekend, that while visiting a local Guard base, the Unit CC has banned berets for anything but garrison wear.  So they aren't "universal" by any means.

"That Others May Zoom"

CAPOfficer

For over twenty years, the National Blue Beret (NBB) has been a topic of discussion with our membership; almost always, negatively.

It has been asked on this form, "If they stopped issuing the beret and renamed the activity... How many people would still go?"  This is a valid question and should be responded to with all honesty.

Likewise, another member of the forum posed the following statement and question, "It [the beret] simply means they went to an activity.  Every other activity and NCSA in CAP has a patch on the BDUs and the NCSA or other ribbon on the blues to denote attendance and completion.  Why should NBB be different?"

Like these members, I believe the focus should be on these two areas; we might be able to determine both, why individuals attend, and what if any, is the need to have a special headgear for an activity which "appears" to amount to nothing more than to symbolize "I attended an activity."

brasda91

I'm prior service, Army, 82nd Airborne Div.  I was in ('89-'92) when it meant something be issued a beret, not like it is now where everyone gets a beret for simply joining the Army.  The beret was originally designed to show that the soldier had completed a higher level of training than the regular "joe".  I do take offense to the cadet/s that wear the beret because they are "on the ground team" and even when they are not wearing the beret correctly.  The beret symbolizes a special breed of soldier, someone highly skilled in their field (usually combat arms) and I have seen cadets that do not fall into that category.  I believe the beret should be left to be worn at NBB and when you return to your unit, you wear the BDU cap as specified in 39-1.

I've been a senior member since '93 and have yet to attend NBB, mainly due to conflicts with family vacation, amount of vacation time, cost of the encampment and distance to the encampment.  I would love to go mainly for the experience of working the elt's and all the other "missions", not to get a beret.
Wade Dillworth, Maj.
Paducah Composite Squadron
www.kywgcap.org/ky011

carnold1836

I want everyone to keep in mind at no time am I condoning the permanent wear of the "beanie", as it has been refereed to, in place of regulation cover for a specific uniform. What I am defending is the awarding of said head gear with the understanding that is to be worn only while attending NBB and very special occasions.

Same with any of the other NCSA geegaws that get handed out. Orange hats and asscots are fine while at HMRSS or during a HMRSS exclusive gathering (if there are such things and if they are even allowed, I don't know). But that is it, no where else.

I allowed my NBB cadet to wear his "beanie" a couple of times to show it off to the other cadets to try to get them interested in the NCSAs. He was the first to go to NBB from our squadron in a very long time and we are trying to get our cadets to be more active in these activities. When he is allowed to wear it he also comes with his regulation cover for the UOD. This way it is more of a display piece rather than a replacement and he realizes that he is no better than the other cadets because he has the beret.
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

DNall

Quote from: brasda91 on January 29, 2007, 07:12:51 PM
The beret symbolizes a special breed of soldier, someone highly skilled in their field (usually combat arms)
That's what it's supposed to symbolize, not just that they went to the activity. In fact they do hold off awarding it till you've "earned" it at some point in the activity, and the flash at a still later point. And like real rangers they are supposed to come back & teach those skills to their units.

Lets talk about real rangers for second though. I think we can agree they earned it. They wear a special beret to indicate current membership in the ranger regiment. If they go to the 82nd or a leg outfit then it's back to the unit headgear. The tab indicates accomplishing extra special training, the beret inicates active membership in an extra special unit practicing those skills. Doesn't that sound like a better use of berets? NBB & HMRS, along with NESA & every wing or at least region should have a special ES academy... those are qualifying schools. You give me money for gear & training for FEMA type I combined air/grd strike teams that can go in within hours after a disaster & do the big time critical heavy lifting work, yeah maybe we can talk about active members of such a team having distinctive headgear, which promotes esprit de corps & encourages others to strive for that level. Now all I need is 60mil & we're in business.


As a matter of local policy though.... I don't like how this is run nationally, but I don't think it's fair to punish cadets for it. I encourage IN-GARRISON wear of the blue beret (not the travesty of HMRS BS & the tradition of non-compliance attitude their leadership brings with it) w/ BDUs now that it's authorzed. I would not allow it w/ blues if that were to be authorized & I do not allow it in the field. I would prefer all such activities got to a simple arched tab on one of the shoulders, pick max of two, & lets get on with life. Each of these are fine activities, but it's ashame they detract from stuff like PJOC, & the more useful range of fam courses. We should take a hard look at those things & re-examiine the overall leadership & culture to bring it all in line w/ the best interests of CAP & the AF.

MIKE

Quote from: carnold1836 on January 29, 2007, 07:32:11 PMI want everyone to keep in mind at no time am I condoning the permanent wear of the "beanie", as it has been refereed to, in place of regulation cover for a specific uniform. What I am defending is the awarding of said head gear with the understanding that is to be worn only while attending NBB and very special occasions.
Beanie is a slang term for the beret.  See also: Brain Mitten



Mike Johnston

floridacyclist

Quote from: TDHenderson on January 29, 2007, 04:58:04 PM
Agreed and well said.  But if the Adult Officer/NCO corps at these activities is doing nothing to put it in check (or if they are actually promoting the attitude) then that is also a serious issue to address.

I saw a lot of that at the last couple of Ranger Activities that I have attended, including the last one that I myself coordinated (although I wasn't the actual one in charge of it). While it is well and good to want cadets to learn leadership by letting them lead (and make mistakes), when they have almost complete free rein they tend to think that they are too good to listen to even the Officers. I have experienced problems with this in a couple of different scenarios and only recently was able to identify enough of where it was coming from to think of how to handle it in such a way that we encourage the kids to see the adults as mentors and role models rather than objects of pity to be looked down on while still boosting them up so that they feel that these activities are worth coming to.  Let's face it, if you take away the specialness, then it's just another bivouac rather than a "special activity", and you don't travel across the country for those.

The next school we have is going to have the adult Officers completely integrated into the school as class leaders and instructors; if they're supposed to be learning how to lead such groups, they should be training and sleeping alongside them, not in their vans or on cots unless they have a medical issue. I think that too much seperation between the cadets and adults simply leads to loss of respect for the adults because it's pretty obvious to the kids that they aren't going through the same program and also becomes an open invitation to hazing and other inappropriate activities as the senior cadets begin to think that they are completely in charge. I know that this is not a cure-all, but it's one thing that I see happening here that we can approach constructively.

That said, I don't want to see the spark die completely; these kids are going to need that drive and confidence to make it in this world. There just has to be a better balance between confidence and cockiness, some of which can come through training and counseling, but often is only going to fully develop with maturity.

As for the associated bling, I have no problem with the orange hats, especially in ES situations; they actually make sense, especially for air-to-ground coordination. I still think the belts and ascottes look rather silly, and would never condone their wear outside of a Ranger activity. In a previous life, I earned my beret the other way (AF SP) and have taken a team of cadets to Sun-n-Fun (the Other Oshkosh) every year to work for the last 4 or 5 years; I'm still not too sure about what makes NBB so special, but have yet to encounter a serious attitude from any of their graduates like I have with certain Hawk Mountain Rangers nor have I met any of them that seemed to think that their beret was all that special so it hasn't really managed to pis offend me yet. I would almost expect PJOC to have the berets, but then I wasn't present when these traditions were formed.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

MIKE

I'm not against the beret as headgear... I'm against how it's been applied in CAP, but my views may be a bit too Euro for CAP.  ;D
Mike Johnston

Hawk200

Quote from: MIKE on January 29, 2007, 03:30:42 PM
....If they stopped issuing the beret and renamed the actvity... How many people would still go?

I've been interested in attending Blue Beret for awhile. I'm probably one of the few that would go, and wouldn't wear the beret afterwards.

I wear a beanie in the Army Guard, and frankly, I hate the thing. It doesn't help me in my job in any manner, it's useless in the field, and you need both hands to put it on in a decent looking manner. I still think it's a joke that I went to the firing range a couple months ago, and got corrected for wearing a patrol cap at the range. I was told "Patrol caps are not authorized.". It's a field environment, not a formation. How does the beret help me when I'm there?

Chris Jacobs

I went to NBB for the air show, not for the beret.  Obviously it is a bonus thing, and i do like the beret, but it is not what made me want to go.  Tomorrow if the beret was taken away from the activity I would still go.  but i don't think that it would take away from the attitudes that are formed when a cadet goes to any special activity.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Earhart1971

That takes me back a few years in Florida Wing (late 60s early 70s).

Florida Wing had a Ranger School.

It was Army sponsored Ranger Training out of Eglin AFB, a course designed by and taught for CAP by real Army Rangers.

Cadets and Seniors who had passed the school, were allowed to wear the Ranger tab and the Black Beret.

A certain Wing Commander asked to be allowed to wear the Beret (without going to the School)

He was told, yes you can wear if, if you pass the course offered.

That was the end of the Black Beret wearing and the end of the School.

Hawk200

Quote from: Earhart1971 on January 29, 2007, 08:38:18 PM
A certain Wing Commander asked to be allowed to wear the Beret (without going to the School)

He was told, yes you can wear if, if you pass the course offered.

That was the end of the Black Beret wearing and the end of the School.

Why do I get the feeling I know who the Wing CC was?

Although I do have some issues with the wear of the Army Ranger tab if you didn't attend the Army Ranger course.

Earhart1971

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 29, 2007, 08:40:00 PM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on January 29, 2007, 08:38:18 PM
A certain Wing Commander asked to be allowed to wear the Beret (without going to the School)

He was told, yes you can wear if, if you pass the course offered.

That was the end of the Black Beret wearing and the end of the School.

Why do I get the feeling I know who the Wing CC was?

Although I do have some issues with the wear of the Army Ranger tab if you didn't attend the Army Ranger course.

LOL, other than that he was a pretty good Wing Commander.

My Squadron members were Reserve Army Rangers, they helped get the program started, and it was a great program while it lasted.

But darn it, they closed it down as I became a buck Cadet Sgt and qualifed to go.


fyrfitrmedic

 I've seen some really crappy attitudes and bad behavior from a few NBB grads and staffers over the years, and I've seen some really crappy attitudes and bad behavior from a few HMRS grads and staffers over the years.

Clothes don't make the man, and bling and beanies don't make the [fill in colorful word for not-nice person here]. It's way too easy to demonize either program and seems to be a full-time occupation of various agendists around the organization as a whole.

Anybody else remember when DEWG wore maroon berets and had the 'DIRT' program? I had signed up as a cadet and received notice that the plug had been pulled; rumors seemed to swirl for a while as to why but I don't remember ever hearing anything beyond scuttlebutt.


MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: MIKE on January 29, 2007, 07:39:49 PM
Quote from: carnold1836 on January 29, 2007, 07:32:11 PMI want everyone to keep in mind at no time am I condoning the permanent wear of the "beanie", as it has been refereed to, in place of regulation cover for a specific uniform. What I am defending is the awarding of said head gear with the understanding that is to be worn only while attending NBB and very special occasions.
Beanie is a slang term for the beret.  See also: Brain Mitten





See also:  "Monica Lewinsky Hat."  (That's what the Marines started calling the Army's black beret when Clinton took it away from the Rangers and gave it to everybody.)
Another former CAP officer

TankerT

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 29, 2007, 08:40:00 PM
Although I do have some issues with the wear of the Army Ranger tab if you didn't attend the Army Ranger course.

Wha?  But... I attended my fourth encampment... and we spent a half day in the woods doing Ranger training!

/Busted a guy for wearing jump wings when he shouldn't have... since... he had never been to jump school.
//Busted a guy for wearing SEAL Trident... that was fun..
///Some cadet "busted" me for wearing jump wings... because CAP doesn't have an airborne school... HA!

/Insert Snappy Comment Here

Hawk200

#29
Quote from: TankerT on January 30, 2007, 03:08:40 AM
///Some cadet "busted" me for wearing jump wings... because CAP doesn't have an airborne school... HA!

I hope you chewed him royally. I don't mind cadets "correcting" if they do it politely. I will educate a cadet when he attempts to tell me something that I know for a fact is incorrect.

But I have issues with some of these cadets that are far too big for their britches, and seem to think that because they made SrA in the cadet program that they are experts in all things military.

I had a cadet tell me I was saluting wrong. Asked him if he had a copy of the drill manual, he did. Told him to look it up. Lo and behold, I was actually saluting in the exact manner shown in the manual. Gotta love it.

DNall

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 30, 2007, 04:06:04 AM
Quote from: TankerT on January 30, 2007, 03:08:40 AM
///Some cadet "busted" me for wearing jump wings... because CAP doesn't have an airborne school... HA!
I hope you chewed him royally. I don't mind cadets "correcting" if they do it politely. I will educate a cadet when he attempts to tell me something that I know for a fact is incorrect.
That's funny, laugh at them. Better yet, keep a straight face & tell them your US Army does & maybe if they're good you'll let them join some day.

QuoteBut I have issues with some of these cadets that are far too big for their britches, and seem to think that because they made SrA in the cadet program that they are experts in all things military.
Oh they get uppity on a wider range of things then that. Reel that back in with proper application of leadership & command presence.

QuoteI had a cadet that tell me I was saluting wrong. Asked him if he had a copy of the drill manual, he did. Told him to look it up. Lo and behold, I was actually saluting in the exact manner shown in the manual. Gotta love it.
Nice. They're usually smart enough to know the seniors that have it down & not mess with them much. I'd just assume them go take up the issue with the other type of aeniors though.

TankerT

Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 04:20:43 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 30, 2007, 04:06:04 AM
Quote from: TankerT on January 30, 2007, 03:08:40 AM
///Some cadet "busted" me for wearing jump wings... because CAP doesn't have an airborne school... HA!
I hope you chewed him royally. I don't mind cadets "correcting" if they do it politely. I will educate a cadet when he attempts to tell me something that I know for a fact is incorrect.
That's funny, laugh at them. Better yet, keep a straight face & tell them your US Army does & maybe if they're good you'll let them join some day.

I didn't really laugh... but... that's fairly close to how it went.

Almost as funny as the time some other cadet accused me of being a "PX Ranger" (His exact words).  When I asked him "huh?" he pointed to a set of wings I was wearing... and dressed me down about them, saying that there was no way I could have earned them.  (He thought they were something from Canada for some reason...)  I promptly pulled out and unfolded a photocopy of a diploma from my wallet and handed it to the kid.  (I knew someone was going to go there sometime....)  He promptly states "I can't read this."  I told him to go learn Thai... and then tell me I never earned those wings.  (The only thing in English on that document was my name, grade and the words "Royal Thai Army - Lop Buri."  All the other characters were whatever you call the "Thai" letters...)  FYI - I did earn them fair and square....

/Insert Snappy Comment Here

RiverAux

I remember one NBB grad in the squadron I was in as a cadet many years ago.  He was one of the most squared away cadets in the unit and I don't remember any attitude.  Don't recall meeting any since. 

However, I do think the headgear should only be worn, if at all, at the event itself.  I think it is a distraction from unit cohesion elsewhere.

Guardrail

Does anyone know why National approved wear of the blue beret after NBB?

shorning

Quote from: Guardrail on January 30, 2007, 04:53:16 AM
Does anyone know why National approved wear of the blue beret after NBB?

Because "National Yellow Hardhat" would have been a funny name for an activity. ::)

CAP428

It seems to me, by reading these posts, that the majority of you have a problem with the elitist attitude some people take on, not with the beret itself.

The beret simply becomes a scapegoat, a material symbol to which you can affix your disapproval with the ego problem some people have.

So we should deal with the real problem: eliminating machoism mentality and swelling egos and leave the beret alone.

"We earned it" and "it looks cool" are not stupid arguments.  After all, if the argument against Hawk bling is that it looks stupid, why would we cut out another thing because it looks cool?  That's circular logic.

A cover is a cover, so it really doesn't matter what you have on your head.  So if one looks cooler ot you than another, why not wear it?

I have yet to see a valid argument against wearing the beret, because the argument of ego is another issue in itself.

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: TankerT on January 30, 2007, 04:37:38 AM(The only thing in English on that document was my name, grade and the words "Royal Thai Army - Lop Buri."  All the other characters were whatever you call the "Thai" letters...)  FYI - I did earn them fair and square....

Thai is written in the Sanskrit alphabet.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Nick Critelli

OK  Here's my NBB story.  Most of you know me as the quiet, timid and mild mannered guy from the IAWG.  Couple of years ago I went to NBB.  I would highly recommend it for officers and cadets.  It was a wonderful experience. 

There was a big buildup and a lot of anticipation about getting the cover. All of us waited in anxious anticipation.  The big day finally arrived. We were given our berets and instructions on how to "prep" them.  You know...you have to  soak the cover, forming it, etc. 

Finally I had the much coveted beret. I would wear it proudly, stand taller...shades of Patton  I thought   I soaked it, formed it and put it on my head with just the right angle and looked in the mirror.  Instead of a General George Patton-like figure looking back at me I was shocked at what I saw. It seemed that the blue/black die had run...all down my face.  I looked like the aged rock star Alice Cooper.  Last time I wore the beret. 

;D
Nick

ZigZag911

Quote from: Guardrail on January 30, 2007, 04:53:16 AM
Does anyone know why National approved wear of the blue beret after NBB?

Because it was strongly supported by the National CC of the day, Brig Gen Anderson (recently appointed National DCS for Startegic Mission)

carnold1836

Quote from: RiverAux on January 30, 2007, 04:47:40 AM
I remember one NBB grad in the squadron I was in as a cadet many years ago.  He was one of the most squared away cadets in the unit and I don't remember any attitude.  Don't recall meeting any since. 

However, I do think the headgear should only be worn, if at all, at the event itself.  I think it is a distraction from unit cohesion elsewhere.

My NBB cadet is the same way, He is really awesome and was a great 1st Sgt for 9 months. I Finlay got him to get his Mitchell. He is distinctly squared away and is always a pleasure to work with for both cadets and Officers. If I had an entire squadron like him I would have squadron of the century locked up.
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

Chris Jacobs

Quote from: carnold1836 on January 30, 2007, 03:53:48 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on January 30, 2007, 04:47:40 AM
I remember one NBB grad in the squadron I was in as a cadet many years ago.  He was one of the most squared away cadets in the unit and I don't remember any attitude.  Don't recall meeting any since. 

However, I do think the headgear should only be worn, if at all, at the event itself.  I think it is a distraction from unit cohesion elsewhere.

My NBB cadet is the same way, He is really awesome and was a great 1st Sgt for 9 months. I Finlay got him to get his Mitchell. He is distinctly squared away and is always a pleasure to work with for both cadets and Officers. If I had an entire squadron like him I would have squadron of the century locked up.

Did he go this last year.  If he did i may know who you are talking about.  If it is him he was a great cadet.  The cadet that i am thinking about would continually keep working even if he wasn't on duty.  I told him he needed to go relax some times, but he was really fun to be around.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Pace

Quote from: Guardrail on January 30, 2007, 04:53:16 AM
Does anyone know why National approved wear of the blue beret after NBB?
The other answers to this question were decently funny, but not how it happened.

Back at the activity this past summer (2006), I was standing around with (then) Col Courter, Col Greenhut, and Maj Gen Pineda on the NBB compound.  A cadet, who will go unnamed, approached us and proceeded to ask TP if the beret could be authorized outside of the activity.  The General turned to Col Greenhut and talked about it for a few moments.  I believe it was Greenhut that mentioned the Hawk Mountain bling.  Then the general instructed Greenhut to get it ready for the NB to approve at the next meeting.  The rest is history...

Obviously from my sig I'm a "Beret", and I like having the option of wearing it should I choose.  However, I think for the sake of uniformity and smaller egos overall I support only wearing it at the activity.
Lt Col, CAP

ddelaney103

Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 31, 2007, 01:57:05 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 30, 2007, 04:53:16 AM
Does anyone know why National approved wear of the blue beret after NBB?
The other answers to this question were decently funny, but not how it happened.

Back at the activity this past summer (2006), I was standing around with (then) Col Courter, Col Greenhut, and Maj Gen Pineda on the NBB compound.  A cadet, who will go unnamed, approached us and proceeded to ask TP if the beret could be authorized outside of the activity.  The General turned to Col Greenhut and talked about it for a few moments.  I believe it was Greenhut that mentioned the Hawk Mountain bling.  Then the general instructed Greenhut to get it ready for the NB to approve at the next meeting.  The rest is history...

And I think that sums up a lot of the problems with CAP.  No plan, rhyme or reason - just ask a boon of the King when's he in the right mood and some Cadet's silly idea is now regulation.  I suppose we should be glad he didn't ask for bloused boots and flight jackets while he was at it.

Chris Jacobs

Has the wear outside of the activity been formally approved.  I can't find any thing regulation wise that would say that it is formally approved.  I know that it was given the "ok" at the NB meeting, but i thought there was more to the process than that.  Every one on this thread keep referring to it like it has been approved.  So can any one show me written prof that it is allowed to be worn?
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

MIKE

I haven't seen the usual policy letter yet. 
Mike Johnston

Eclipse

KB Article: http://tinyurl.com/3yfeey

Can a cadet that participated in Blue Beret (airshow) wear the beret at squadron meetings? Cadets came back from the national board and said there was a new policy.

Partially true. After discussion of several options, the August 2006 National Board approved: "All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green." The board did not approve wear of these items with service uniforms.

See August 2006 National Board Minutes
AGENDA ITEM 19 Action
SUBJECT: New Business

4. ITEM: Wear of Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Uniforms & Devices
COL FAGAN/MO MOVED AND COL LEVITCH/FL SECONDED that the National Board vote to allow wear of the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain head gear by cadets and senior members on both the BDUs and dress uniform.
COL NELSON/CA MOVED TO AMEND AND COL OPLAND/DE SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of both activity head gear only on BDUs.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.
MOTION DID NOT PASS
MAJ GEN PINEDA RESTATED THE AMENDED MOTION: The members can wear the head gear that they get at Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with their blue BDUs and green BDUs only.
COL LEVITCH/FL MOVED TO AMEND AND COL APPLEBAUM/PA SECONDED the amendment to allow the wear of any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head from Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with BDUs only.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL OPLAND/DE MOVED TO AMEND to allow wear of any distinctive head gear awarded at any national special cadet activities.
MOTION TO AMEND DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND
ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

"That Others May Zoom"

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 31, 2007, 03:26:25 AM
Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 31, 2007, 01:57:05 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 30, 2007, 04:53:16 AM
Does anyone know why National approved wear of the blue beret after NBB?
The other answers to this question were decently funny, but not how it happened.

Back at the activity this past summer (2006), I was standing around with (then) Col Courter, Col Greenhut, and Maj Gen Pineda on the NBB compound.  A cadet, who will go unnamed, approached us and proceeded to ask TP if the beret could be authorized outside of the activity.  The General turned to Col Greenhut and talked about it for a few moments.  I believe it was Greenhut that mentioned the Hawk Mountain bling.  Then the general instructed Greenhut to get it ready for the NB to approve at the next meeting.  The rest is history...

And I think that sums up a lot of the problems with CAP.  No plan, rhyme or reason - just ask a boon of the King when's he in the right mood and some Cadet's silly idea is now regulation.  I suppose we should be glad he didn't ask for bloused boots and flight jackets while he was at it.

Somebody find that kid and tell him to ask for navy-blue nametapes with the BDU!
Another former CAP officer

mikeylikey

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2007, 05:49:16 AM
KB Article: http://tinyurl.com/3yfeey

Can a cadet that participated in Blue Beret (airshow) wear the beret at squadron meetings? Cadets came back from the national board and said there was a new policy.

Partially true. After discussion of several options, the August 2006 National Board approved: "All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green." The board did not approve wear of these items with service uniforms.

See August 2006 National Board Minutes
AGENDA ITEM 19 Action
SUBJECT: New Business

4. ITEM: Wear of Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Uniforms & Devices
COL FAGAN/MO MOVED AND COL LEVITCH/FL SECONDED that the National Board vote to allow wear of the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain head gear by cadets and senior members on both the BDUs and dress uniform.
COL NELSON/CA MOVED TO AMEND AND COL OPLAND/DE SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of both activity head gear only on BDUs.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.
MOTION DID NOT PASS
MAJ GEN PINEDA RESTATED THE AMENDED MOTION: The members can wear the head gear that they get at Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with their blue BDUs and green BDUs only.
COL LEVITCH/FL MOVED TO AMEND AND COL APPLEBAUM/PA SECONDED the amendment to allow the wear of any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head from Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with BDUs only.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL OPLAND/DE MOVED TO AMEND to allow wear of any distinctive head gear awarded at any national special cadet activities.
MOTION TO AMEND DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND
ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

Wow....wish that wouldn't have been passed!  The motion should have failed.  I guess Hawk bling truely is more important than the immediate needs of our members for funding and equipment.  The whole issue is crazy, it is only another way for those that went to show what?  Oh thats right.......they WENT!  In my world, every single uniform issue would go before a committe that was comprised of 5 randomly selected CAP members and 5 Air Force members.  Distinctive items that the committe approves would go before the CAP-USAF Commander and he would decide to allow it on the CAP uniform or not.  Lets not forget the CAP uniform is the AF uniform, and they have complete control over it.  I can't wait until the AF smacks back hard.  I think it may very well be in the near future! 
What's up monkeys?

shorning

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 31, 2007, 08:01:59 AM
Lets not forget the CAP uniform is the AF uniform, and they have complete control over it. 

Um...no, only some of them are.  They only own the Air Force-style uniforms.  They don't have any control the CAP distinctive uniforms.


Really folks, the Air Force doesn't care about this as much as you think they do.  Yeah, they care...but only a little.  And even then probably more on an individual level than as an organization. 

Chris Jacobs

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2007, 05:49:16 AM
KB Article: http://tinyurl.com/3yfeey

Can a cadet that participated in Blue Beret (airshow) wear the beret at squadron meetings? Cadets came back from the national board and said there was a new policy.

Partially true. After discussion of several options, the August 2006 National Board approved: "All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green." The board did not approve wear of these items with service uniforms.

See August 2006 National Board Minutes
AGENDA ITEM 19 Action
SUBJECT: New Business

4. ITEM: Wear of Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Uniforms & Devices
COL FAGAN/MO MOVED AND COL LEVITCH/FL SECONDED that the National Board vote to allow wear of the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain head gear by cadets and senior members on both the BDUs and dress uniform.
COL NELSON/CA MOVED TO AMEND AND COL OPLAND/DE SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of both activity head gear only on BDUs.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.
MOTION DID NOT PASS
MAJ GEN PINEDA RESTATED THE AMENDED MOTION: The members can wear the head gear that they get at Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with their blue BDUs and green BDUs only.
COL LEVITCH/FL MOVED TO AMEND AND COL APPLEBAUM/PA SECONDED the amendment to allow the wear of any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head from Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with BDUs only.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL OPLAND/DE MOVED TO AMEND to allow wear of any distinctive head gear awarded at any national special cadet activities.
MOTION TO AMEND DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND
ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

Ok the las line says that National headquarters will send notification to the field and change the appropriate CAP regulations.  Did this ever happen?  I can't find any regulation changes on line.  It seems to me that it is not really appropriate tell that happens.  and it has been like 6 months.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on January 31, 2007, 02:50:18 PM
Ok the las line says that National headquarters will send notification to the field and change the appropriate CAP regulations.  Did this ever happen?  I can't find any regulation changes on line.  It seems to me that it is not really appropriate tell that happens.  and it has been like 6 months.

Don't hold your breath... expect either a policy letter followed by a future rewrite of CAPM 39-1 (sometime in the next decade) or watch this little tidbit be quietly forgotten when it really comes time to incorporate it into the appropriate manual(s). Which will p*ss off the NBBers and the HMRS to no end.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

BillB

What exactly are the Hawk mountain AWARDS?  Is it the scarfs? whistles? patches?
Seems like there is a difference between what hawk uses as a uniform and what is AWARDED.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Pace

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2007, 02:58:56 PM
watch this little tidbit be quietly forgotten when it really comes time to incorporate it into the appropriate manual(s). Which will p*ss off the NBBers and the HMRS to no end.

Not all of us:

Quote from: dcpacemaker
Obviously from my sig I'm a "Beret", and I like having the option of wearing it should I choose.  However, I think for the sake of uniformity and smaller egos overall I support only wearing it at the activity.
Lt Col, CAP

RiverAux

So, basically the governing body of CAP has ceded the right to control CAP uniforms to the staff at NBB and Hawk Mountain?  They can design any patches, hats, or other items and they are automatically approved to be worn no matter how crazy.

I don't think they can do that as the Air Force has ultimate control over what goes on the AF-style BDUs and I am sure they will not want to give up their authority to some encampment staff officer.


For all you that have uniform pet peeves, now is your chance.  Get on the staff of one of these schools and propose anything you want and you will probably get it done without having to go through all those hoops normal people do. 



I suppose they can allow it for blue BDUs though. 

1st Lt Provost

My understanding of Hawk Mountain Awards would include all the uniform items.  I went there in 2003, and upon graduating were told we were awarded all the items such as scarves, belts, tabs, hats, whistles, etc.  However, our Wing CC promptly notified us that there wasn't a regulatory provision that coincided with that statement made by the staff at HMRS.  After careful review, and going through the proper channels, our Wing has adopted that it includes all the items as I have mentioned above.  

Personally, I think it's overboard.  There is no need for a cadet to wear all these distinctive items from HMRS or the beret from NBB. I think it detracts from why the cadets are there.  They have enough social class distinction outside of CAP.  If we have certain cadets running around in special uniforms it could add animosity and too much pigheaded "gung-hoism".  I for one used to be like that when I first came back from HMRS for quite a while.  However, I see that the type of environment down there was very conducive to that behavior, and regret all things I may of said and/or done that did not truly uphold the Core Values.  Nevertheless, I truly value my experience at Hawk Mountain Ranger School, and would help any other cadet or senior who wanted to attend in background information and the process.

Thank you for letting voice my personal opinion, and hope to see some positive discussion.
1ST LT JOSEPH R PROVOST, CAP
CADET PROGRAMS OFFICER
LEADERSHIP OFFICER
EMERGENCY SERVICES OFFICER
DANIELSON CADET SQUADRON

Pace

Quote from: BillB on January 31, 2007, 03:22:54 PM
What exactly are the Hawk mountain AWARDS?  Is it the scarfs? whistles? patches?
Seems like there is a difference between what hawk uses as a uniform and what is AWARDED.
"Ranger" tabs and "medic" tabs are the ones that always used to cause all the heartburn for everyone else.  I remember back in 2005 as a fresh (3 week old) senior member at NBB, there were several cadets who were not so politely asked to take a knife and remove the ranger tab.

I hate to say it, but I always got off to a bad start with HMRS cadets at NBB (in 2005 and 2006).  Not because I have a problem with them, but nearly 100% of them came to NBB with an "I'm a Hawk grad and I know more than every one of you" attitude.
Lt Col, CAP

A.Member

I haven't seen anyone wear the beret outside of the activity so it's not a major issue to me.  I also haven't experienced the resulting attitudes.  Afterall, what's to have an attitude about?  You went to an airshow and parked some planes.  Not exactly the stuff that should build a big head.  That said, I obviously haven't participated in that event and perhaps I'm missing something.

Let's look on the bright side, at least we don't have a bunch of people wanting to come back and wear those silly blaze orange trucker's hats.  Now, then we'd have a real problem!  ;) >:D
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Hawk200

Quote from: A.Member on January 31, 2007, 04:24:00 PM
I haven't seen anyone wear the beret outside of the activity so it's not a major issue to me.  I also haven't experienced the resulting attitudes.  Afterall, what's to have an attitude about?  You went to an airshow and parked some planes.  Not exactly the stuff that should build a big head. 

I've seen one worn recently. Back in December, my unit had a Red Cross instructor come in, and teach the First Aid/Bloodborne Pathogen class. We spread the word around, and one other unit took us up on our offer. A senior came with six cadets.

One of them had the blue beret. He was a cadet LtCol, and pretty squared away. Not arrogant, kinda quiet and unassuming. I don't know if it was a case of maturity, but he had a quiet confidence, and would help out in a manner that was passing on experience, not lording it over anyone. He was very teamwork oriented, and obviously studied hard on what he learned.

On the flip side, I remember a senior in Alaska. Had his tabs and Hawk Mountain patch, and even if he didn't, you'd know he went anyway. Constant comments of "This is what we did in Ranger school" or "That's not how we did it at Hawk Mountain". Got kind of old after awhile.

I think that's the kind of problem people see with some of these school grads. Some show up with seriously inflated egos, and it isn't teamwork oriented.

I'm not picking on HMRS, or supporting NBB, just pointing out some of the examples of what I've seen, and apparently others have too. It's the occasional egos that pop up that give each program a bad name, not all the attendees. Some think that eliminating the associated items will cure the problem. I don't see that. Even if they don't wear them, these people will let you know.

Goes back to an old joke: "How do you know there's a fighter pilot at the party?" The answer: "He'll tell you." May seem funny, but it's an example of the human element, not a uniform one.

afgeo4

I'm so glad a cadet's ignorance of chain of command was rewarded by the national commander's ignorance of chain of command. Hey! We're all finally on the same page! Wrong book, but same page!
GEORGE LURYE

Pace

You know, in hindsight, I should have suggested different color nametapes and badges/insignia (white on navy blue or black would be nice).  That or recommended that the "distinctive NBB uniform" should have those colors and use that as a test run of the idea.  Hell, it probably would have gone through.
Lt Col, CAP

afgeo4

Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 31, 2007, 05:22:19 PM
You know, in hindsight, I should have suggested different color nametapes and badges/insignia (white on navy blue or black would be nice).  That or recommended that the "distinctive NBB uniform" should have those colors and use that as a test run of the idea.  Hell, it probably would have gone through.

You should have suggested a US Army style of uniform for NBB. Looks great with berets and it's very distinctive from USAF. It'd be authorized in a minute! In fact, USAF would have no problems with us embarassing ourselves while in an Army style uniform.
GEORGE LURYE

Pace

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 31, 2007, 05:26:54 PM
Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 31, 2007, 05:22:19 PM
You know, in hindsight, I should have suggested different color nametapes and badges/insignia (white on navy blue or black would be nice).  That or recommended that the "distinctive NBB uniform" should have those colors and use that as a test run of the idea.  Hell, it probably would have gone through.

You should have suggested a US Army style of uniform for NBB. Looks great with berets and it's very distinctive from USAF. It'd be authorized in a minute! In fact, USAF would have no problems with us embarassing ourselves while in an Army style uniform.

:D
Lt Col, CAP