Culling the uniform manual...

Started by Hawk200, January 28, 2007, 07:55:09 PM

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Pylon

Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 11:17:44 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate Cadet Officer Shoulderboards!  (Ridiculously expensive ($26 a pair), serve no practical purpose over pinning the grade directly onto the epaulet, and are difficult as hell to work with and put on)

New style enlisted service dress is the only reason I can see for keeping them.  It's a double edged sword.

Indeed, it might be a double-edged sword because of the new enlisted-style service dress.  But one side of the sword is definitely sharper -- $26 just the shoulderboards (without insignia) is too steep to ask a new Mitchell cadet to foot, especially when I can completely outfit a new cadet with everything they need for just a little bit more than that.

Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 11:17:44 PM

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate the All or none ribbon rule for cadets.  All, some, or none was fine the way it was.

If you're gonna do it, there needs to be a standard applied to some IMO.  Highest achievement/award ribbon works for me and mirrors the standards for seniors.

Meh.  If the C/Col just wants to wear his curry ribbon and the unit citation, why not let him or her?

Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 11:17:44 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate CAP cutouts on the M-65 field jacket epaulets (Civil Air Patrol is clearly on the front of the jacket; same reasoning as the removal of CAP cutouts from the BDUs)

Ok, but what about SMs without grade and NCOs?

SMs without grade wear the CAP cutouts, as that is their current grade isnginia, and CAP NCOs' wear the chevrons just like they do with their BDUs.  Since "Civil Air Patrol" is already on the chest,  I simply am advocating dropping the redundant CAP cutouts on the M-65 for SM officers - which we already did with the BDUs.  Seems like somebody just forgot to extend that rationale to the field jacket at the time they made the decision. 

Plus it makes outfitting an M-65 a little cheaper and quicker for members which is something I always advocate where possible.

Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 11:17:44 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate Silver sleeve braid on the TPU service coat

And the silver chin strap on the service cap.

Roger that.  With the CAP cutouts and CAP nametag changes since the uniform was original rolled out, I think that coupled with the double-breastedness, different buttons, white shirt, and CAP SM device on CAP should make this uniform distinct enough to not need the garish silver braid on the sleeves.  That just smacks of needless bling and attracts unwanted attention in my opinion.

Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 11:17:44 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate Grade insignia for C/AB, as in the "CAP cutouts" (USAF has no insignia for AB, why do we need insignia for C/AB.  Makes it cheaper and quicker for new recruits to get into a uniform and find out if they like the program)

This assumes they won't wear service dress as a C/AB?

I suppose CAP cutouts in that instance would make sense.




Quote from: afgeo4 on January 28, 2007, 11:07:51 PM
I agree with everything except for the C/AB issue. As it is, the officer without grade uniform is identified by having no grade insignia at all. A 17 year old C/AB cannot be confused with a 19 year old officer without grade. Considering that by eliminating the CAP cutouts on the rest of cadets uniforms and if we eliminate the cutouts from the TPU there will be no reason to make the cutouts anymore, we should come up with some distinctive insignia for officers without grade... perhaps something more in line with what CG Aux assigns to their members... A prop or something? Perhaps go to gray epaulets with nothing but CAP on them. I think those used to be made.

George,

Right now as it is, both SMWOGs and C/ABs wear the same insignia - the CAP cutouts.  You can tell the difference because of the grey or blue nameplates which stand out at a distance.

I would advocate ditching the cutouts for both of them.  One, it makes it cheaper for new cadets.  For SMs, it eliminates leaving those pin holes in the collar once they promote to 2d Lt.  As a replacement for the SMWOGs, the blank embroidered epaulet is perfect and provides distinctiveness.

I just think the CAP cutout for both the C/AB and the SMWOG serves no purpose. 
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

arajca

Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 01:49:19 AM
Sorry I meant to hit this earlier but had to run. So w/o reading anyone else's...

1) Patches: The multi-color explosion is rediculous, might as well wear a girl scout sash. Take off the flag, wg patch, activity/school patches, anything like CISM/safety, burn those retaded ES patches on all uniforms... JUST tapes & embroidered versions of badges worn in the same position as on Blues. That's it, nothing else, stick your esprit de corps complaints. You're absolutely kidding me if you think people participate at your unit or not cause they're wearing a patch. We need to be building together, not apart into 52 seperate CAPs & certainly not 1500 or whatever seperate & unrelated units. We're eitehr a cohesive organization that looks dresses the part of the unified professionalism we want to display or we're not worth existing.
Follow the AF lead on this. If the AF allows unit patches, CAP should also.

Quote2) Badges: some of the specs can be combined into related career fields (admin/pers for instance, ops, etc). The CP & AE badges specifically need to fit the mold as an over the name badge. Which brings me to the wear policy. Yes there are four spots on a uniform wear some kind of badge can go, but that doesn't mean any badge can go in any spot. If you got wings those should be worn on top (pick one, mil or CAP, not both). Those two over the name slots are for spec track & operational badges. That's wings, GT, PAO, CP, Comm, ES, etc. The pocket is ONLY for specific duty badges like recruiter, honor guard, etc. The only thing that applies to in CAP is the NEC badge. A re-designed IG badge would be appropriate there, as would a nat/reg staff badge. NB badge needs to be eliminated now that there's a master command badge. Which brings me to over the name side. The ONLY thing that needs to go there is the command badge. Over for current, under for past, that's it. If that means you get a choice of one spec track badge & have to leave some spots empty, that's perfect, and the policy should at least encourage that the one badge you chose there be for the job you're currently assigned to (assuming you have that rating). If we have to redesign anything, for the love of God get rid of the cartoons.
I think we've had many long discussions on other forum threads over this issue.

Quote3) Flight suit: get rid of the plastic grade in favor of dark blue sewn on, or at least make that optional.
Absolutely
QuoteAnd don't change the command patch you retards.
No comment. ;D

Quote...that's it on AF-style, now lets take care of corporate-style. Notice I said corporate-STYLE, not uniforms authorized by the CAP corporation, which is exactly what the original meaning of the phrase was.

4) Get rid of the golf shirt. I don't care how comfortable it is I don't care how easy or cheap it is. The purpose of a uniform & the intricate care it requires is not to look good, it is meant to require sacrifice, dillagnce, & vigilants specifically to remind you of you regularly & mechanically of the obligations you've committed to. The golf shirt was never made to be a uniform, it was made to be a novelty item sold by the bookstore. Cut that thing right now before it further corputs us.
I can go either way on this.

Quote5) pick one of either the corporate-style blue/white w/ service coat or gray/white w/ blazer. We'll assume they pick blue there & drop the grooming standard.
Until they drop the grooming, this one ain't happening.

Quote6) Drop BBDU & Blue utility jumpsuit (keep blue nomex flt suit). In place of that for field uniform use the same white aviator shirt but with BBDU pants & boots (must blouse pants). That's dramatically simplified (cheaper) and gives a professional appearance while not trying to look like a swat cop. Authorize CG-style blue Goretex parka w/ that combo & optional blue patrol cap or cold weather watch cap.
WHITE AVIATOR shirt with blue bdu pants ?! Do you realize how fast you'd be trashing those shirts. Talk about adding cost for unnecessary uniform items. Jeesh.

Keep the bbdu. It works.

Quote7) when done, adopt the AFI as the CAP uniform manual w/39-1 as a supplement. That way AF changes are automatic to CAP & 39-1 spells out the distinctive way in which it's executed. That cuts down a massive amount of work for AF in dealing w/ our retarded uniform issues, & streamlines the process for us to stay up to date w/ them. If they want to hold us off on something, all they have to do it add a chapter to the end of the AFI saying XYZ will not apply to CAP or will be executed by CAP in the following way or timeline. Makes everyone's life easier.
Possible, but can you see the folks (cadidiots and senile members) grabbing the AFI and setting up thier uniforms accordingly? They'll read the first line of the CAP supplement (Basic uniform guidance for CAP uniforms comes frm AFI...) and start raiding MCSS for all the AF bling they see in the AFI. We have many professionals in CAP who will read the next line (However, wear policies for CAP are modified in this regulation. Any discrepency between the AFI and CAPM 39-1 will be resolved in favor of CAPM 39-1). Do we have uniform image problems now? Can you see the problems that will cause. And, of course, those cadidiots and senile members will be the ones the press picks up on.

Robert Hartigan

I would seriously consider the corporate service coat if the silver braid was not there. If the silver braid was not there I would even be a proponent of dropping all the USAF uniform combinations including the woodland BDU's.
<><><>#996
GRW   #2717

DNall

Quote from: arajca on January 29, 2007, 03:20:55 AM
Follow the AF lead on this. If the AF allows unit patches, CAP should also.
AF is moving away from this on ABUs, or so the rumor goes. It looks pretty silly in the AF to tell you the truth, but passable in subdued. It's not in multi-color. At least if you haev to do it then go with a semi-subdued low color kind of patch design.

Quote
Quote7) when done, adopt the AFI as the CAP uniform manual w/39-1 as a supplement. That way AF changes are automatic to CAP & 39-1 spells out the distinctive way in which it's executed. That cuts down a massive amount of work for AF in dealing w/ our retarded uniform issues, & streamlines the process for us to stay up to date w/ them. If they want to hold us off on something, all they have to do it add a chapter to the end of the AFI saying XYZ will not apply to CAP or will be executed by CAP in the following way or timeline. Makes everyone's life easier.
Possible, but can you see the folks (cadidiots and senile members) grabbing the AFI and setting up thier uniforms accordingly? They'll read the first line of the CAP supplement (Basic uniform guidance for CAP uniforms comes frm AFI...) and start raiding MCSS for all the AF bling they see in the AFI. We have many professionals in CAP who will read the next line (However, wear policies for CAP are modified in this regulation. Any discrepency between the AFI and CAPM 39-1 will be resolved in favor of CAPM 39-1). Do we have uniform image problems now? Can you see the problems that will cause. And, of course, those cadidiots and senile members will be the ones the press picks up on.
I don't know if it's that big an issue. Saves the duplicated effort. Obviously they can't wear an AF badge they don't qualify for.

Guardrail

#24
Quote from: Robert Hartigan on January 29, 2007, 03:26:12 AM
I would seriously consider the corporate service coat if the silver braid was not there. If the silver braid was not there I would even be a proponent of dropping all the USAF uniform combinations including the woodland BDU's.

Does anyone know the purpose of the silver braid on the corporate service coat?  In the Air Force, the only personnel who wear the silver braid on the service dress are Honor Guardsmen and band members.

Seems a little ridiculous to have it on a dress uniform.   

DNall

just commissioning braid & emphasizing the dif from normal service dress. Not really sure why we have the blue commissioning braid on service coats since we don't have commissions, but that's a hold over from an earlier time with blue grade slides & metal rank. I do think the silver braid looks a bit silly - looks McPeaks style - but my biggest issue with that uniform is the AF officer slides on the shirt. I've already had big problems with a member wearing the wrong slides on the wrong shirt by "accident." That happens once on an AFB & I don't want to be in same hemisphere. Just embroider CAP on the stock AF slides & lets get on with life. I like that actually, it helps make a case down the road to standardize to the blue slides later after everyone has accepted them as the norm.

afgeo4

Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:06:57 AM
just commissioning braid & emphasizing the dif from normal service dress. Not really sure why we have the blue commissioning braid on service coats since we don't have commissions, but that's a hold over from an earlier time with blue grade slides & metal rank. I do think the silver braid looks a bit silly - looks McPeaks style - but my biggest issue with that uniform is the AF officer slides on the shirt. I've already had big problems with a member wearing the wrong slides on the wrong shirt by "accident." That happens once on an AFB & I don't want to be in same hemisphere. Just embroider CAP on the stock AF slides & lets get on with life. I like that actually, it helps make a case down the road to standardize to the blue slides later after everyone has accepted them as the norm.
I agree. I wish the white aviator shirts were cut the same as the blue ones though... I'm not umm... plump enough to pull off the aviator with military appearance and bearing. Not that I'm skinny, but I think the shirt's cut waaaay too big for the neck sizes.
GEORGE LURYE

Major Carrales

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on January 29, 2007, 03:26:12 AM
I would seriously consider the corporate service coat if the silver braid was not there. If the silver braid was not there I would even be a proponent of dropping all the USAF uniform combinations including the woodland BDU's.

When they were discussing this originally, someone mentioned dark grey braid.  How is got to be "drum major" silver, I'll never know. 

If they would replace the silver braid with DAR grey it would look OK.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

DNall

You can get a shirt tapered for under five bucks. Which I recommend, not cause it looks sharp, but well fitted cloths are oh sooo much more comfortable & easy to maintain.

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 29, 2007, 04:15:45 AM
When they were discussing this originally, someone mentioned dark grey braid.  How is got to be "drum major" silver, I'll never know. 

If they would replace the silver braid with DAR grey it would look OK.
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.

Pylon

Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:18:29 AM
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.

Simple solution -- lose it all together.  Less sewing, less cost, less crap with which to draw needless attention to us, less messing around.  I like it.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

arajca

Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:18:29 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 29, 2007, 04:15:45 AM
When they were discussing this originally, someone mentioned dark grey braid.  How is got to be "drum major" silver, I'll never know. 

If they would replace the silver braid with DAR grey it would look OK.
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.
Actually not. All CAP/Vanguard would need to do is to go to a ribbon manufacturer and look through their product listing for 1/2" ribbed ribbon. Chances are very good they could find a suitable dark grey (or even charcoal grey) ribbon that would look good on the uniform.

Guardrail

Quote from: Pylon on January 29, 2007, 04:20:07 AM
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:18:29 AM
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.

Simple solution -- lose it all together.  Less sewing, less cost, less crap with which to draw needless attention to us, less messing around.  I like it.

Another solution is to get rid of the corporate service dress uniform completely.  Not only is it an unnecessary economic burden, it conflicts with the U.S.C. and UCMJ.    

DNall

Quote from: Guardrail on January 29, 2007, 04:26:55 AM
Quote from: Pylon on January 29, 2007, 04:20:07 AM
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:18:29 AM
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.

Simple solution -- lose it all together.  Less sewing, less cost, less crap with which to draw needless attention to us, less messing around.  I like it.

Another solution is to get rid of the corporate service dress uniform completely.  Not only is it an unnecessary economic burden, it conflicts with the U.S.C. and UCMJ.    
Glad we could get some changes made to get geneva convention off that list though right? I mean if I get shot down by an iranian freighter & am considered by international law to be a combatant, God forbid they treat me like an officer instead of some unworthy enlisted person. Yeah that was the top priority, good job there.

Careful all, this thread is going to devolved quickly if we don't get back on topic. SScrew the TPU, what else do people want dropped

Major Carrales

Quote from: Pylon on January 29, 2007, 04:20:07 AM
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:18:29 AM
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.

Simple solution -- lose it all together.  Less sewing, less cost, less crap with which to draw needless attention to us, less messing around.  I like it.

This would actually be the best solution.  Remember, originally the braid was to distinguish OFFICERs from the rest on a military uniform.  Since the CAP Distinctive is not a US military uniform, I don't see why it has to be there.

Plus, chaning to another colour would be an additional expense, much more so than just the expense to remove the silve braid.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

ZigZag911

Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 08:46:26 PM
Group CC badge.

In the interests of fairness, let's add Squadron CC badge....both or neither is what I say!

DNall

What's wrong with the command badges? I'd go with the under for past like the Af does & cut the command service ribbon, but I got no issue with the badges. Like that it would cut the NB budge.

MIKE

Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 29, 2007, 04:43:39 AM
Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 08:46:26 PM
Group CC badge.

In the interests of fairness, let's add Squadron CC badge....both or neither is what I say!

There is a method to my madness.  The USAF does not have a group CC's badge... The have one badge for commanders at various echelons, and even extend wear to former commanders.
Mike Johnston

ZigZag911

#37
Here's a radical thought:

1) eliminate USAF style uniform (including the "TPU" variant) for all senior members.
    Suddenly USAF will focus more on our capabilities than our appearance being confused with theirs

2) Replace USAF for adults with a more professional looking Corporate uniform....my suggestion is khaki, but perhaps we could do something in gray.....shirt with epaulets, slacks, overseas cap, optional dress jacket (also w. epaulets)

3) Let cadets keep USAF style dress/service uniform a la JROTC

4) EVERYBODY out of ABUs/BDUs or whatever, into a single tone (gray, navy blue, khaki...pick one) BDU style field uniform....we're not trying to camouflage, so why do it?

5) Pick a single color  (NOT used by AF) flight suit available in NOMEX

6) No more berets, scarves, aiguelettes, cords, sashes, bells, whistles EXCEPT for Honor Guards

7) Field uniform -- one set wings, one ES qual badge, US flag, name tape, CAP tape, blue embroidered grade (metal on caps!)

8) Flight suits --embroidered blue grade, leather name/aero rating patch, US flag

Disabled smileys - MIKE

ZigZag911

Quote from: MIKE on January 29, 2007, 04:50:33 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 29, 2007, 04:43:39 AM
Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 08:46:26 PM
Group CC badge.

In the interests of fairness, let's add Squadron CC badge....both or neither is what I say!

There is a method to my madness.  The USAF does not have a group CC's badge... The have one badge for commanders at various echelons, and even extend wear to former commanders.

If you're saying "one commander's badge" regardless of echelon, I can live with that....I like the re-positioned 'past commander' badge....Command Service ribbon, we could, as DNall suggests, do without

Major Carrales

#39
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 29, 2007, 05:00:54 AM
Here's a radical thought:

1) eliminate USAF style uniform (including the "TPU" variant) for all senior members.
    Suddenly USAF will focus more on our capabilities than our appearance being confused with theirs

2) Replace USAF for adults with a more professional looking Corporate uniform....my suggestion is khaki, but perhaps we could do something in gray.....shirt with epaulets, slacks, overseas cap, optional dress jacket (also w. epaulets)

3) Let cadets keep USAF style dress/service uniform a la JROTC

4) EVERYBODY out of ABUs/BDUs or whatever, into a single tone (gray, navy blue, khaki...pick one) BDU style field uniform....we're not trying to camouflage, so why do it?

5) Pick a single color  (NOT used by AF) flight suit available in NOMEX

6) No more berets, scarves, aiguelettes, cords, sashes, bells, whistles EXCEPT for Honor Guards

7) Field uniform -- one set wings, one ES qual badge, US flag, name tape, CAP tape, blue embroidered grade (metal on caps!)

8) Flight suits --embroidered blue grade, leather name/aero rating patch, US flag


Too radical a plan to even be considered...I'd prepare for a flaming. 

Why?...because you are asking unpaid members to trash maybe thousands of dollars worth of things they already have and replace it with stuff they will find offensive.  It would be viewed as distancing ourselves from the USAF.

Disabled smileys - MIKE
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454