How long for Lvl 3 to show up?

[Dad2-4]

I know it's a "it depends" question, but just curious how long it has taken any of you from the time you submit your CAPF 24 until Lvl 3 finally shows up on e-services. I sent my Form 24 to my squadron CC on 7 Jan 2012, so it's only been about 3.5 weeks.

[coudano]

From the time NHQ receives it to the time it posts should be maybe 1 business day.

Chances are pretty good, it's sitting on someone's desk up your chain of command.

[EMT-83]

Just curious, did you enclosed proof of attendance at your two conferences? That one item is a major hold up on Level 3 applications.

[Ed Bos]

Just curious, did you enclosed proof of attendance at your two conferences? That one item is a major hold up on Level 3 applications.

Who holds this up for "proof"? There's no requirement to disclose anything other than dates, according to the regs.

Somebody please point out where it says otherwise, if I'm wrong. This isn't the first time I've heard this, and I'm concerned that some echelons of the ProDev program are adding requirements inconsistently.

[EMT-83]

I do.

Yes, I've had members be less than honest when submitting paperwork. If it isn't written down, it didn't happen.

[Ed Bos]

I do.

Yes, I've had members be less than honest when submitting paperwork. If it isn't written down, it didn't happen.

In what (relevant) position do you serve?

[EMT-83]

Wing DPD.

[ßτε]

Just curious, did you enclosed proof of attendance at your two conferences? That one item is a major hold up on Level 3 applications.

Who holds this up for "proof"? There's no requirement to disclose anything other than dates, according to the regs.

Somebody please point out where it says otherwise, if I'm wrong. This isn't the first time I've heard this, and I'm concerned that some echelons of the ProDev program are adding requirements inconsistently.

CAPR 50-17 2-5e. Members submit applications for awards on CAPF 24, Application for Senior Member Professional Development Award. Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements. A member submitting an application for an award whose achievements do not appear on their online record must attach copies of supporting documents. NHQ/DP returns applications not supported by the member's record entries or documentation.

(emphasis added)

[Eclipse]

Who holds this up for "proof"? There's no requirement to disclose anything other than dates, according to the regs.

How would you know people actually went?  You have to substantiate everything.  Most wings keep records of the conferences they host internally,
but a lot of activities outside a wing count as well.

[jeders]

I know it's a "it depends" question, but just curious how long it has taken any of you from the time you submit your CAPF 24 until Lvl 3 finally shows up on e-services. I sent my Form 24 to my squadron CC on 7 Jan 2012, so it's only been about 3.5 weeks.

In my experience, about 3-4 months.

[a2capt]

My last couple posted within a week.

[MSG Mac]

Many conference fees are actually paid through National HQ back to the Wing or Region so National should have some record for those.  But have you checked with the Wing DPD to see if it's been received and sent on? I know in some wings the Group/CC's want a copy also (even though they're not required to sign off on PD awards).

[Thrashed]

If you sign up for conferences, why don't they keep track?  I signed up. I signed in. Still, no one knows I was there? I had to supply proof too. I was warned ahead of time, so I kept everything. It took months for my L3 to show up. I assume there is a certificate too.? It's been over a year and I still didn't get one.

[Pylon]

Well I guess what's the standard proof of attendance here?   Should I attach photographs of the member on the dance floor at the conference banquet to substantiate?  Because I can certainly register (and show a registration confirmation or payment receipt) to any wing or region conference I want.  Doesn't mean I showed up. 

Proof that I registered to attend a CLC and paid the fee doesn't cut it for other PD course credit.  I need a certificate of completion or PA which verifies that I actually came and successfully warmed a chair.

Realistically, the member's commander should vet the attendance claims to his or her satisfaction, if necessary (though I would hope that, generally speaking, the Sq/CC would know his or her members well enough to know if they've attended their wing's or region's conferences), and once the Sq/CC signs it further proof should not need to be attached.

[lordmonar]

I do.

Yes, I've had members be less than honest when submitting paperwork. If it isn't written down, it didn't happen.

So....just to be curious.....what do you accept as proof?

If you have had member who were less then honest.....did you 2b them? 

[EMT-83]

I do.

Yes, I've had members be less than honest when submitting paperwork. If it isn't written down, it didn't happen.

So....just to be curious.....what do you accept as proof?

If you have had member who were less then honest.....did you 2b them? 

I'll accept pretty much any reasonable proof: a certificate of attendance, a Personnel Authorization, or check against a conference roster that I do have. I have Wing records going back 7 years, so we can generally pull the file. They're not 100% accurate, so that's sometimes a problem.

I recently had a member attend a Region conference, where they didn't issue certificates. He knew that he would need proof, so he had a photo taken of himself with the Region commander, with the "Welcome to the 2011 NER Conference" PowerPoint slide in the background. It made my day!

As to those members being less than honest, I turn it back to the squadron CC. I'll say something to the effect that my records don't match the information on the Form 24, can you provide clarification? It can be touchy, because the CC has obviously signed the application without vetting it.

Honestly, I'm not "the jerk at Wing" that's purposely holding up paperwork. My Wing CC has issued specific instructions that everything be verified before I submit it for signature. I'll jump through hoops to get paperwork pushed through for promotion ceremonies and the like. I just ask that folks work with me to get it done.

[lordmonar]

Cool,

This is just one of my pet peeves.

I don't understand the requirment for two wing conferences.

a) There is no definition of what a wing or higher conference actually is.
b) There is not standard defining "attend"....I pay my money and spend the entire time outside the lobby smoking cigarettes and telling war stories...and then go to the banquet....have I attended?
c) If attending two wing conferences is so important for Level III, why is there no requirment for regional conferences for Level IV and National conferences for Level V?

It sounds too much like....."we put on a show and no one came.....so we will make them come!"

[a2capt]

CAWG Posts a PA, grab it and put in your 201 file.. they're there when you need it.
Email a copy to your email blackhole box. File it under '201 file' .. All the stuff.

[Ed Bos]

Just curious, did you enclosed proof of attendance at your two conferences? That one item is a major hold up on Level 3 applications.

Who holds this up for "proof"? There's no requirement to disclose anything other than dates, according to the regs.

Somebody please point out where it says otherwise, if I'm wrong. This isn't the first time I've heard this, and I'm concerned that some echelons of the ProDev program are adding requirements inconsistently.

CAPR 50-17 2-5e. Members submit applications for awards on CAPF 24, Application for Senior Member Professional Development Award. Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements. A member submitting an application for an award whose achievements do not appear on their online record must attach copies of supporting documents. NHQ/DP returns applications not supported by the member's record entries or documentation.

(emphasis added)

Attendance of a conference is not an achievement.

And yes, a participation letter (not a PA) would be the correct item to document attendance here, but there's no reason to not accept someone's say-so for this requirement.

That's why we have the Core Values. If you find someone has breached those, you have a more important problem than whether or not they stood in the lobby at the Kentucky Wing Conference and shot the breeze with anybody who happened to pass by.

How would you know people actually went?  You have to substantiate everything.  Most wings keep records of the conferences they host internally, but a lot of activities outside a wing count as well.

If anybody needs to know if someone went, a PL is proper documentation. But the idea that, "You have to substantiate everything," is utterly distasteful, and not an actual requirement. There are certainly things that require documentation, but we're hurting our organization by trying to be completely inscrutable.  Case in point, holding up promotions and professional development for a requirement that doesn't exist.

[Private Investigator]

I do.

Yes, I've had members be less than honest when submitting paperwork. If it isn't written down, it didn't happen.

Roger that.

[Private Investigator]

This is just one of my pet peeves.

I don't understand the requirment for two wing conferences.

Because we all know the Senior Member 1st Lt who took SLS, CLC, UCC, RSC in one summer and is still a NOOB! I am thinking with two wing conferences under your belt you got to have been around a little and have gain something thru osmosis.

[NCRblues]

This is just one of my pet peeves.

I don't understand the requirment for two wing conferences.

Because we all know the Senior Member 1st Lt who took SLS, CLC, UCC, RSC in one summer and is still a NOOB! I am thinking with two wing conferences under your belt you got to have been around a little and have gain something thru osmosis.

Considering you can go to more than once conference a year... it does not say it has to be your wing...heck you could go to your wings, your region's and the summer national board conference all in one year....

[jeders]

This is just one of my pet peeves.

I don't understand the requirment for two wing conferences.

Because we all know the Senior Member 1st Lt who took SLS, CLC, UCC, RSC in one summer and is still a NOOB! I am thinking with two wing conferences under your belt you got to have been around a little and have gain something thru osmosis.

Considering you can go to more than once conference a year... it does not say it has to be your wing...heck you could go to your wings, your region's and the summer national board conference all in one year....

I personally went to the OKWG conference one weekend and the TXWG conference the next. Now I was in CAP for many years at that point, so I was far from being a noob, but anyone could bust out level 3 with conferences in almost no time and still be wet behind the ears.

[SARDOC]

Because we all know the Senior Member 1st Lt who took SLS, CLC, UCC, RSC in one summer and is still a NOOB! I am thinking with two wing conferences under your belt you got to have been around a little and have gain something thru osmosis.

Why are you talking about me like that? 

I actually enrolled in RSC while still a 2dLt.  for my two conferences I did the one in my wing and my neighboring wing.  I asked for emails from organizers from each conference verifying my attendance...they were more than happy to oblige.  Submitted them when I got my level 3 and nobody looked twice.

[Dad2-4]

I attended my first wing conference when I had been a member for less than a year, and in my original wing although I had moved to another wing by then. I attended the original wing's conference again the following year. That was 8 and 9 years ago and I don't have any material proof that I was there. I hope that doesn't become a problem because if so my PD in CAP may come to a full stop, permanently.

[Pylon]

I attended my first wing conference when I had been a member for less than a year, and in my original wing although I had moved to another wing by then. I attended the original wing's conference again the following year. That was 8 and 9 years ago and I don't have any material proof that I was there. I hope that doesn't become a problem because if so my PD in CAP may come to a full stop, permanently.

Luckily, proof isn't required.  Fill in the dates of the conferences you attended on your CAPF 24 and submit it to your chain of command.  As long as your commander is satisfied and signs it, you're good to go.  There's no actual requirement that documentation be provided at any point to anybody at any echelon processing your request for Level III.

[EMT-83]

CAPR 50-17 2-5e. Members submit applications for awards on CAPF 24, Application for Senior Member Professional Development Award. Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements. A member submitting an application for an award whose achievements do not appear on their online record must attach copies of supporting documents. NHQ/DP returns applications not supported by the member's record entries or documentation.


If documentation doesn't show in eServices, it needs to be attached. This ain't rocket surgery.

[Ed Bos]

CAPR 50-17 2-5e. Members submit applications for awards on CAPF 24, Application for Senior Member Professional Development Award. Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements. A member submitting an application for an award whose achievements do not appear on their online record must attach copies of supporting documents. NHQ/DP returns applications not supported by the member's record entries or documentation.


If documentation doesn't show in eServices, it needs to be attached. This ain't rocket surgery.

Conference attendance isn't an achievement. There's no certificate for it, there's no diploma for it, and creating an additional requirement for Participation Letters (if you insist on referring to et cetera) is uncalled for by the 50-17.

[davidsinn]

CAPR 50-17 2-5e. Members submit applications for awards on CAPF 24, Application for Senior Member Professional Development Award. Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements. A member submitting an application for an award whose achievements do not appear on their online record must attach copies of supporting documents. NHQ/DP returns applications not supported by the member's record entries or documentation.


If documentation doesn't show in eServices, it needs to be attached. This ain't rocket surgery.

Conference attendance isn't an achievement. There's no certificate for it, there's no diploma for it, and creating an additional requirement for Participation Letters (if you insist on referring to et cetera) is uncalled for by the 50-17.

The problem is conference attendance is a requirement that's not documented in eServices because NHQ is too busy adding safety crap to it, instead of something useful like fully tracking PD.

[NCRblues]

You know how much it would cost my wing to print out certificates for the conference???

Even a sign in roster is less that accurate... What if someone shows up late and missed the sheet of paper at the front door? Did they not go then?

This is beyond ridiculous. If the squadron commander signs off the on request to update the PD level, then that should be it. Why would wing come back AFTER the person's commander had signed it and say "hey, let me see something that says you went to the conferences"? If it is that big of a question for the person than im going to venture something else is wrong there....

[davidsinn]

You know how much it would cost my wing to print out certificates for the conference???

Even a sign in roster is less that accurate... What if someone shows up late and missed the sheet of paper at the front door? Did they not go then?

This is beyond ridiculous. If the squadron commander signs off the on request to update the PD level, then that should be it. Why would wing come back AFTER the person's commander had signed it and say "hey, let me see something that says you went to the conferences"? If it is that big of a question for the person than im going to venture something else is wrong there....

I make a point of shaking the wing commander's hand when I go to a conference...

[Eclipse]

You know how much it would cost my wing to print out certificates for the conference.

$0

Mail merged email list of .pdfs.

Done.

[davidsinn]

You know how much it would cost my wing to print out certificates for the conference.

$0

Mail merged email list of .pdfs.

Done.

How about sending a form to NHQ and have them post it in eServices and then not have to justify it yourself? Oh wait. We can't, but we can track the fact I sat through another hurricane briefing even though I live in Indiana.

[Private Investigator]

CAPR 50-17 2-5e. Members submit applications for awards on CAPF 24, Application for Senior Member Professional Development Award. Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements. A member submitting an application for an award whose achievements do not appear on their online record must attach copies of supporting documents. NHQ/DP returns applications not supported by the member's record entries or documentation.


If documentation doesn't show in eServices, it needs to be attached. This ain't rocket surgery.

Conference attendance isn't an achievement. There's no certificate for it, there's no diploma for it, and creating an additional requirement for Participation Letters (if you insist on referring to et cetera) is uncalled for by the 50-17.

Ed,

I do not get it. Are you for conference attendance or you think its a waste of time?

I think Conference attendance makes a member a better member. I know a Senior Member who claims eleven Master ratings but his whole CAP world is his Squadron's HQ. He and many others know very little of CAP besides the urban legends and myths that they hear on meeting nights.

JMHO,

[EMT-83]

Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements.


It doesn't say achievement; it says "completion of requirements". BTW, this would also include the additional requirements for Level IV and V that aren't tracked on eServices or members using PME.

Good, bad or indifferent, them's the rules.

[Ed Bos]

CAPR 50-17 2-5e. Members submit applications for awards on CAPF 24, Application for Senior Member Professional Development Award. Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements. A member submitting an application for an award whose achievements do not appear on their online record must attach copies of supporting documents. NHQ/DP returns applications not supported by the member's record entries or documentation.


If documentation doesn't show in eServices, it needs to be attached. This ain't rocket surgery.

Conference attendance isn't an achievement. There's no certificate for it, there's no diploma for it, and creating an additional requirement for Participation Letters (if you insist on referring to et cetera) is uncalled for by the 50-17.

Ed,

I do not get it. Are you for conference attendance or you think its a waste of time?

I think Conference attendance makes a member a better member. I know a Senior Member who claims eleven Master ratings but his whole CAP world is his Squadron's HQ. He and many others know very little of CAP besides the urban legends and myths that they hear on meeting nights.

JMHO,

You certainly don't get it. 

I'm not commenting on the relevance of conferences at all. I'm trying to underscore that there are officers in units and wings out there that create requirements out of thin air (documentation of conference attendance in this case) when the regulation does not call for it. Adding false and unnecessary administrative hurdles hurts the organization.

For those of you keeping score, two points:

A) Conferences are very important to the development of a cadre of senior members and cadets that are well integrated in the program,

B) I've done my best to find a supplement to the 50-17 in any wing that specifies that some form of proof  of conference attendance is required for submission of a CAPF 24 (it's not required by CAPR 50-17).

[Ed Bos]

Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements.


It doesn't say achievement; it says "completion of requirements". BTW, this would also include the additional requirements for Level IV and V that aren't tracked on eServices or members using PME.

Good, bad or indifferent, them's the rules.

You're ignoring the part about "certificates, diplomas, etc." That statement is specific to coursework that people "graduate" from.

[JeffDG]

Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements.


It doesn't say achievement; it says "completion of requirements". BTW, this would also include the additional requirements for Level IV and V that aren't tracked on eServices or members using PME.

Good, bad or indifferent, them's the rules.

You're ignoring the part about "certificates, diplomas, etc." That statement is specific to coursework that people "graduate" from.

What part of "etc" are you not getting.  Certificates, diplomas are examples, not meant as an exhaustive list.

"Documentation of completion of requirements"...so:
Are the two Wing, Region or National Conferences a requirement?

If so, the reg calls for documentation of completion of that requirment.  Nobody's making that up, it's just not listed in the exemplar list, which is expressly not complete by the addition of the "etc".  "et al" would also have indicated the same, but is in much less common use than etc.

[MSG Mac]

The local Commander's signature should be enough validate the conference requirement. What ever happened to the paperwork elimination initiative?

[davidsinn]

The local Commander's signature should be enough validate the conference requirement. What ever happened to the paperwork elimination initiative?

Not enough copies of the paperwork was sent up...

[Dad2-4]

Attendance at 2 conferences is required for Lvl. 3. Established.
No certificate, diploma, letter of participation, etc. was issued from said conferences.
E-services did not list attendance. Is it supposed to? E-services also doesn't list all of my unit transfers and duty positions held.
In this case there is no documentation available for attachment to form 24. 

[SarDragon]

What wing are you in? How did you register for the conference? Got a cancelled check? Can you ask the registrar for proof? Got a program, or seminar materials?

If someone really needs you to prove participation, there are ways to do it. I didn't have any problems, since I attended my two with my commander.

[SARDOC]

^^^ I just sent emails to the PDO in charge of the conferences and they each just replied back to me confirming that I was on the list for each conference.  Forwarded those Emails to my commander and he signed off my level 3.