/rant

Started by Extremepredjudice, August 23, 2011, 03:10:46 AM

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HGjunkie

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 23, 2011, 05:19:53 AM
I just hope your unit isn't in my wing.

For the record, he posted a couple days back that he was in Group 2.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

BillB

But Group 2 covers 1/3 of the state of Florida
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

a2capt

..and 1/3rd of the state does qualify as in your wing.

Woodsy

We don't like to claim certain parts of the state as being Florida...  And that has nothing to do with CAP!!!  ;)

Eagle

This isn't as important, but if you are still using the older Leadership material (not Learn to Lead) you are not required to take drill tests, which might explain why your sergeants didn't know about the drill test.
C/2dLt Thomas Bracker
Pell City Composite Squadron
Alpha Flight Commander

a2capt

The Wright Brothers drill test is required for either curriculum. It is also identical for both. L2K has it printed on one page, L2L has it on two pages. Thats about the difference. Meaning, it was not added after the fact, it's always been there.

Extremepredjudice

#26
Regardless, it was supposed to be a one on one.

It did help me realise there is more to marshelling troops than I thought.

I am going to bury the hatchet, and press on.

Is the first 3 or 4 tests what the drill exam should've been?
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPT_782_Drill_Test_FINAL_0D0A619D59581.pdf
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Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

a2capt

#27
That is the drill tests for the first 8 chapters, under the L2L curriculum. (Online Testing), not including the Wright Brothers. L2K has drill only with Chapters 1, 2, and 4. In addition to the same Wright Brothers Award drill portion.

The Wright Brothers drill is done with a flight, or at least four cadets, two columns. The outcome of the test is not based on anything they do, just you..  But it is not one on one.

The drill would have been .. 20 steps. Encompassing the first three chapters since it is comprehensive.

..and look what I found:

http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=Wright_Brothers_Award_Exam

For this stuff to be adequately evaluated, you need additional cadets. The conditions of the test are right there on the drill sheet.

Extremepredjudice

I know all of them :)
Except I am a bit shaky on extend/close march and column of files... Mostly because I have only seen it on paper....
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Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

titanII

Quote from: Extremepredjudice on August 24, 2011, 07:42:12 AM
Except I am a bit shaky on extend/close march and column of files... Mostly because I have only seen it on paper....
Well for Column of Files, you don't need to do much besides say the command (if you're leading the flight).
To be honest, I'm a bit shaky on extend/close march as well  ;)
No longer active on CAP talk

Eagle

Quote from: a2capt on August 24, 2011, 01:14:36 AM
The Wright Brothers drill test is required for either curriculum. It is also identical for both. L2K has it printed on one page, L2L has it on two pages. Thats about the difference. Meaning, it was not added after the fact, it's always been there.
My bad. I didn't see the part about him needing the Wright Brothers drill test. I thought it was just a normal promotion.
C/2dLt Thomas Bracker
Pell City Composite Squadron
Alpha Flight Commander

CAPC/officer125

Quote from: Short Field on August 23, 2011, 05:06:52 AM
Have your parents call the Wing Commander and explain what happened.  If that doesn't create a response, contact the Region Commander.  This squadron is in bad shape and needs some serious HHQ oversight and some adult leadership.  It is NOT a CAP squadron anymore but a place for kids to hang out.
I know the OP has questioned this and it would definitely be breaking Chain of Command if his parents call the Wing Commander, that is, unless the  Squadron or Group commander don't do anything. However, from what I can tell, the OP hasn't talked to his Squadron level CoC yet and should do that before going to the Group, Wing, or Region Commander.

To the OP:
Good job for keeping your head down and not joking around, keep that up. However, no matter if you are ok with doing PT, it was being used as a punishment (from what I can tell) which is against CPP. Someone else has said this, but the proper thing for your C/CC to have done would have been to either pull the entire flight aside and address the problem sternly, or pull just the Flight Sergeant and Asst. Flight Sergeant aside, address the problem with them, and let them take care of it inside the flight.
Also, as others have pointed out, your Alpha flight is the experienced flight and therefore should be setting the example to the training flight. You may know the stuff and therefore can afford to be a little lax, but it is not setting the example to the cadets that training. If you feel the need to joke around, a place should be found to do that. Inside the flight is not the place for it.
C/LtCol Priscilla (Pat) Temaat
Eaker #2228
Earhart #14523
KS-001- KSWG HQ staff
2012 Joint Dakota Cadet Leadership Encampment Cadet Commander

wacapgh

Quote from: Eagle on August 24, 2011, 12:45:59 AM
This isn't as important, but if you are still using the older Leadership material (not Learn to Lead) you are not required to take drill tests, which might explain why your sergeants didn't know about the drill test.

All cadets who joined after 1 JULY 2010 will use the Learn to Lead program (CAPR 52-16 5-3,b).

Eclipse

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on August 24, 2011, 05:38:10 PMHave your parents call the Wing Commander and explain what happened.  If that doesn't create a response, contact the Region Commander.

Assuming they aren't members, his parents aren't in the chain, they aren't even in the organization.  Naturally they should discuss this first with
the unit CC, but barring an acceptable answer (even if it's only not acceptable to them), they should not feel reluctant to call whomever they feel
like calling.

In properly run squadrons (or any organization), the answer you get at the highest level should not differ much from the answer you get at the ground, assuming that to be the case, personal decisions might have to be made as to continue participation in CAP.  If the answer is different, that might get something fixed.

"That Others May Zoom"

Short Field

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on August 24, 2011, 05:38:10 PM
Quote from: Short Field on August 23, 2011, 05:06:52 AM
Have your parents call the Wing Commander and explain what happened.  If that doesn't create a response, contact the Region Commander.  This squadron is in bad shape and needs some serious HHQ oversight and some adult leadership.  It is NOT a CAP squadron anymore but a place for kids to hang out.
I know the OP has questioned this and it would definitely be breaking Chain of Command if his parents call the Wing Commander, that is, unless the  Squadron or Group commander don't do anything.
If this stuff is happening, there is no Chain of Command, just a bunch of goofs wearing uniforms.  The parents need to immediately call the wing commander and get it fixed.  As pointed out, his parents are not CAP and the COC means absolutely nothing to them.  It was always interesting in the RM to see the response a parental complaint to a congressman has on a unit - and their COC.   
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

BuckeyeDEJ

So this cadet is in Florida Wing, albeit the south Georgia part of it. (Group 2 includes Jacksonville, Ocala and Gainesville -- it may be the largest in terms of land area, but Group 3 -- the greater Tampa Bay area -- is the largest, with 1,000 members -- almost 1/4 of the wing's 4,200 members.)

I would suggest that if parents become involved and get no satisfaction with the squadron commander, the parents could go to the group commander. The new Group 2 commander's a stand-up guy. I personally think this is an issue for group level, at most.

There's a slew of issues here. And there's always the problem squadron. But squadrons take on their leaders' personality and the culture emanates from them, and squadron commanders are ultimately responsible for their units... my personal feeling (speaking as a former squadron old man, and at the risk of speaking out of turn) is that this squadron commander is a slug, and that this unit may be rotting like a fish -- from the head down.

For those of you who don't know, the real Florida is south of the I-4 corridor. Everything else is Alabama and Georgia. :P


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

Extremepredjudice

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 07, 2011, 05:18:22 AM
So this cadet is in Florida Wing, albeit the south Georgia part of it. (Group 2 includes Jacksonville, Ocala and Gainesville -- it may be the largest in terms of land area, but Group 3 -- the greater Tampa Bay area -- is the largest, with 1,000 members -- almost 1/4 of the wing's 4,200 members.)

I would suggest that if parents become involved and get no satisfaction with the squadron commander, the parents could go to the group commander. The new Group 2 commander's a stand-up guy. I personally think this is an issue for group level, at most.

There's a slew of issues here. And there's always the problem squadron. But squadrons take on their leaders' personality and the culture emanates from them, and squadron commanders are ultimately responsible for their units... my personal feeling (speaking as a former squadron old man, and at the risk of speaking out of turn) is that this squadron commander is a slug, and that this unit may be rotting like a fish -- from the head down.

For those of you who don't know, the real Florida is south of the I-4 corridor. Everything else is Alabama and Georgia. :P
Necro!

I think I stated this before: I will bury the hatchet, unless this happens again.
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Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

coudano

Quote from: titanII on August 24, 2011, 02:27:34 PM
Well for Column of Files, you don't need to do much besides say the command (if you're leading the flight).

Unless you're an element leader...
The person giving the commands typically trips over the rhythm and verbiage until they get used to the rhythm.  It's probably the first command a cadet encounters that isn't just   preparatory, EXECUTION format.

QuoteTo be honest, I'm a bit shaky on extend/close march as well  ;)

From a halt, to close march, you simply do right step harch for a specific number of steps.
4th does zero, 3rd does 2. 2nd does 4.  1st does 6.
Make those left steps to extend.

While marching it gets significantly more complicated,
close harch is called on the right foot, everyone except the base file pivots 45 on the next left, takes a specified number of steps (3rd takes 1, 2nd takes 3, and 1st takes 5) and then pivots 45 (back to forward) on the right foot.
extend is called on the left foot, and the next right foot pivots 45, specified steps, and then pivots 45 back to forward on the left.
to complicate matters further, base file automatically goes to half steps, and after the other elements pivot 45 back to the 'forward' direction, the half step is taken up

close and extend march, while marching, are (probably) the most mechanically complex drill maneuvers in the book, in terms of the number of things going on, the number of different things going on at the same time.  Counter march might be as complex or more complex...



as a practical matter, i've only seen close and extend march (while marching) used once in the real world, and I was the flight commander...  we were  marching up a sidewalk at the usafa prep school (a flight of cap cadets on a tour) and there is a place where steps go down in the middle of the sidewalk.  there wasn't room to fit the flight between the step rails and the wall, so i close marched them, and they squeeked through at close interval; and then extended them on the other side.  it wasn't perfectly executed but the right general idea got accomplished.  The usafaps cadets eyes about fell out of their heads haha.

close march (From a halt) is used at USAF BMT all the time, as in every single morning, on the pad under your dorms.  They have to form in column and close interval to make room for everyone down there for the 0430 singing of the air force song.  (good times)