What CAP RANK counts for and possibly should be used as...

[aveighter]

A.member ...

If (and when) Customs and courtesies by CAP adult "officers" are seen by NHQ to merit inclusion in a regulation or at the very least a CAPM (e.g. 39-1) and not merely a pamphlet, I will consider this mandatory otherwise saluting is advisory and an optional "courtesy."

Pretty myopic view there Chaplain.  And what a negative attitude from a supposed "man of the cloth".  With beliefs like the ones you frequently express I can only hope you do not present yourself in anything other than a corporate style uniform.  Your opinions are in extreme contravention to the history of CAP, the documents of the organization and the expressed opinions of the SECAF and the General Staff including Air University and 1st AF.

To any personnel from those operations reading this thread I offer my personal apologies for such unprofessional and vitriolic comments.  Many here are diligently striving to address the organizational shortcomings and deficits that result in such expressions.

Please allow us the time and give us the assistance needed to accomplish our daunting task.

Amen.

[ZigZag911]

A.member ...

If (and when) Customs and courtesies by CAP adult "officers" are seen by NHQ to merit inclusion in a regulation or at the very least a CAPM (e.g. 39-1) and not merely a pamphlet, I will consider this mandatory otherwise saluting is advisory and an optional "courtesy."

Chaplain:

A salute is a military greeting, and a sign of respect, not for the person, but for the office.

I presume that, for whatever reason, you did not understand that....I certainly hope that is the case, rather than that a chaplain would set such a negative example.

[RiverAux]

Pamphlets have just as much regulatory force as CAP regulations. 

[MIKE]

Pamphlets have just as much regulatory force as CAP regulations. 

1. c. Pamphlets. These are nondirective, informative type publications.

Emphasis added.

[RiverAux]

Oh, so we're not actually required to follow the specialty track training guides, all customs and courtesies, CAC rules, the Spaatz exam administration requirements, or CAP Core values?  Wow, I'll ask my commander to give me a Master in Flight Operations this week nevermind that I don't meet any of the requirements.

C'mon most of these "pamplets" are in everything but name only regulations.  Only a few of them are just "informative" publications.

[Major Carrales]

I could be wrong...but I think we are drifting here a bit.  Listing a bit away from the topic. 

[Guardrail]

I think CAP rank counts for the hard work, time, and exertions spent in working toward earning rank.  Rank should be used as an indicator of a person's performance, willingness to promote, and initiative to command.     

It's also an indicator of the level at which a person is capable of command, though there's more flexibility with this in CAP than in the military (no lieutenants or captains as SQ/CCs in the Air Force).

That's how I always thought of it as a cadet. 

[Dragoon]

Some say that CAP rank stands for nothing.  Shall we make an objective, honest and serious analysis of what it is and can actually be used for?

Major Carrales - I applaud you for bringing up the topic.  I think your judgements listed below on different CAP grades are a bit optimistic.  Here's a more cynical view.

When I see a CAP 2d Lt what can I assume...

1) New Guy

No argument here

When I see a CAP 1st Lt...

3) Maybe some squadron level officers with no ambitions to rise to group or to command.  Comfortable in current spot...maybe slowing down to get that Senior Rating

Well, or maybe a serving squadron commander.  Or in some cases, a Wing Level Director (either because he brings expertise from outside, or because he was the only guy who'd take the job!

When I see a CAP Capt...

1) Some one dedicated to a unit or taking a leading role as a STAFF officer/Squadron Commander/Ops officer

Or also likely a just a minor squadron staff officer (or even assistant) who completed level 2, and has no plans to ever take a leading role or command anything.

When I see a CAP Major...

2) Possible past commander or group staff officer

Well, maybe.  A fair number of specialty tracks don't require service above Squadron level for a senior rating.  For some, it's just 18 months or so of squadron time.  So this could be the same guy I mentioned for CAP Captain above, after hanging around a squadron and sitting through two days of CLC.

When I see a CAP Lt Col
8 ) WING Director/Region Level

Mebbe.  Mebbe not.  Most specialties don't require that level of service.  But...we know he's dedicated enough to CAP to complete ACSC or take time off for Region Staff College.  (which is why so many of our members stop at major...)

When I see a CAP Colonel

1) Wing King
2) Former Wing King
3) Region ViceRoy
4) Former Region Viceroy
5) Lots of wisdom

And at this level, rank finally means something - at least the guy did a Colonel-level job, and did it well enough to convince someone to make his Eagles permanent.


Here's more the way I see it.

2d Lt - new guy.

1st Lt - okay functioning at squadron level, but also likely to be a professional appointment new guy.  But ya never know, he may be a commander or group/wing big shot.  Check the ribbon rack.

Capt - he either got a professional appointment, or was dedicated enough to get through ECI-13.  His competence is still unknown, but he's probably got a few years under his belt and has some dedication to the program.  Likely, I'll be seeing this guy again at other CAP events (and just like the 1st Lt, he might be my CAP bosses boss!)

Major - Really not much different than Captain, as there is no "gatekeeper" test to Level 3.  He's extremely unlikely to be an professional appointment new guy.  Likely does a fair amount of CAP.  And the odds go up a bit that he holds (or has held) some position above squadron staff.  But it's still not a lock.  But I'd lay odds that this is a productive member.

Lt Col - old timer.  Loves CAP.  Folks at Wing at least know his name.  Dedicated enough to go to RSC or take ACSC.  Very likely to have experience I can learn from.  May or may not be able to lead his way out of a paper bag, though.

Col - he's got some years, knows folks way above my level, and has done at least one hard job.  Probably several, as it's hard to get the eagles without a pretty good resume.





Basically, rank infers years in CAP and some level of dedication.  Only at the higher grades does it sort of indicate proficiency.  It's more of an honorary thing.  Basically, an award like a clasp on your service ribbon rather than an indicator of responsibility, authority or leadership potential.

[Dragoon]

As to the original question, "what CAP grade stands for?" I liken our grade to that of a firefighter (they can be lieutenants, captains, etc) or police/LEO (they can be corporals, sergeants, LTs, Capts, Majors, Colonels and so forth). Firefighter "rank" is a real thing under ICS on the fire ground. Our grade can be likewise within our operations.

It could be, but it isn't.  An IC can hold any rank, and can easily be outranked by one of his Mission Staff Assistants.

Our rank conveys no authority or responsibility, backed up by CAP regs.  Fire/Police rank often does.

I don't see a way to tie our rank to emergency authority unless we require IC for all Lt Cols, Section Chief for all Majors, etc.

[arajca]

Oh, so we're not actually required to follow the specialty track training guides, all customs and courtesies, CAC rules, the Spaatz exam administration requirements, or CAP Core values?  Wow, I'll ask my commander to give me a Master in Flight Operations this week nevermind that I don't meet any of the requirements.

C'mon most of these "pamplets" are in everything but name only regulations.  Only a few of them are just "informative" publications.

If the pamphlet is used as the standard in a regulation, the pamphlet then become regulatory.

[Al Sayre]

As to the original question, "what CAP grade stands for?" I liken our grade to that of a firefighter (they can be lieutenants, captains, etc) or police/LEO (they can be corporals, sergeants, LTs, Capts, Majors, Colonels and so forth). Firefighter "rank" is a real thing under ICS on the fire ground. Our grade can be likewise within our operations.

It could be, but it isn't.  An IC can hold any rank, and can easily be outranked by one of his Mission Staff Assistants.

Our rank conveys no authority or responsibility, backed up by CAP regs.  Fire/Police rank often does.

I don't see a way to tie our rank to emergency authority unless we require IC for all Lt Cols, Section Chief for all Majors, etc.

This makes me think:

How about we make IC1's, IC2's, AL1's,AL2's LtCols
                                  OPS and Planning Section Chiefs, IC3's & AL3's Majors
                                  Other Section Chiefs & Branch Directors Captains
                                  Team/Unit Leaders 1st Lt's

and give them an ES Tab or something for their Uniform.

Gives people an incentive to participate in ES, and encourages them to attain higher ratings, and the rank would actually mean something.  The Caveat being no "pencil whipping" allowed.

[Dragoon]

This makes me think:

How about we make IC1's, IC2's, AL1's,AL2's LtCols
                                  OPS and Planning Section Chiefs, IC3's & AL3's Majors
                                  Other Section Chiefs & Branch Directors Captains
                                  Team/Unit Leaders 1st Lt's

and give them an ES Tab or something for their Uniform.

Gives people an incentive to participate in ES, and encourages them to attain higher ratings, and the rank would actually mean something.  The Caveat being no "pencil whipping" allowed.

I think you'd run afoul of the PD system.  In other words, it's a way to get Lt Col without getting even even Level 2.  And, technically, the PD system is there to train you to hold the grade.  Whether it does or not is another matter entirely.

[Major Carrales]

As to the original question, "what CAP grade stands for?" I liken our grade to that of a firefighter (they can be lieutenants, captains, etc) or police/LEO (they can be corporals, sergeants, LTs, Capts, Majors, Colonels and so forth). Firefighter "rank" is a real thing under ICS on the fire ground. Our grade can be likewise within our operations.

It could be, but it isn't.  An IC can hold any rank, and can easily be outranked by one of his Mission Staff Assistants.

Our rank conveys no authority or responsibility, backed up by CAP regs.  Fire/Police rank often does.

I don't see a way to tie our rank to emergency authority unless we require IC for all Lt Cols, Section Chief for all Majors, etc.

This makes me think:

How about we make IC1's, IC2's, AL1's,AL2's LtCols
                                  OPS and Planning Section Chiefs, IC3's & AL3's Majors
                                  Other Section Chiefs & Branch Directors Captains
                                  Team/Unit Leaders 1st Lt's

and give them an ES Tab or something for their Uniform.

Gives people an incentive to participate in ES, and encourages them to attain higher ratings, and the rank would actually mean something.  The Caveat being no "pencil whipping" allowed.

This would limit promotions to ES officers.   Hummmm...maybe this could be an element of an ES officers track?   But again, if it were an exclusive promotion track it would alienate everyone else.

[Al Sayre]

This makes me think:

How about we make IC1's, IC2's, AL1's,AL2's LtCols
                                  OPS and Planning Section Chiefs, IC3's & AL3's Majors
                                  Other Section Chiefs & Branch Directors Captains
                                  Team/Unit Leaders 1st Lt's

and give them an ES Tab or something for their Uniform.

Gives people an incentive to participate in ES, and encourages them to attain higher ratings, and the rank would actually mean something.  The Caveat being no "pencil whipping" allowed.

I think you'd run afoul of the PD system.  In other words, it's a way to get Lt Col without getting even even Level 2.  And, technically, the PD system is there to train you to hold the grade.  Whether it does or not is another matter entirely.

All it would take is a few paragraphs in the 50-17 and 35-5 adding this as an alternative to the myriad other ways to get promoted.  These people do actually have authority and should have commensurate grade YMMV.

[SAR-EMT1]

Let me flip the bit to the RLOs and the RLNCO's
Bear with me and take a second before answering:
Assume I answer the "military/civilian" question and say : 'Military'
From a RLO / RLNCO perspective: what is the EASIEST/ CLEANEST way to associate epulets to experience in a way befitting us and understood (if not toasted) by the RLAF ?
As for the corporate tag. I am pretending for the next 3 seconds it doesnt exist: my ID card has "AIR FORCE AUX" not "INC"
Feel free to flame me at the end of your contemplative post. 
I am young and stupid enough to speak my mind

[Dragoon]

Tie it to position.  Then choose the right guy for the position, based on experience and training.  Real Military types pretty much expect Lt Cols to be in charge of 1st Lts, not the other way around.

[davedove]

Before I reply, let me state that I have had over 20 years with the Army, as either enlisted or civilian.  While it looks strange to me to have a Lt. commanding a Lt. Col., does anyone that CAP works with really have a problem with it?  It seems to me they would be much more concerned with whether or not CAP gets the job done.  Maybe a lot of people here just have a hangup about what the grade is "supposed" to mean.

[ddelaney103]

CAP grade represents one thing - your perceived worth to the Corporation.

More PD is good, so we give bling for it.

Pilots are good and ones with more tickets are better, so we give bling for it.

Commanders are good, so we give bling for it.

Smoozing with Congresscritters and State Houses is great, so we give big bling for it.

Why?  Well, bling is cheap - we even get the member to buy the stuff from the Corp or its approved vendor so CAP makes money.

Officer bling carries extra weight because it makes you look like a real officer.  If we changed to an NCO or FO system your place in the pecking order wouldn't change, but you wouldn't be an officer, and a lot of people get cranky about that.

As a DoD civilian, I was in charge of soldiers. I went overseas and wore a uniform.  I wasn't an officer, but I did get respect for what I was and what I did.

The way to get respect from Big Blue is to be what we are: motivated volunteers who can bring a lot to the table.  Trying to dress up like daddy and being a "sorta officer" is just not the right path.  Let's give CAP grade to most of us, save AF grade for those holding a position of command responsibility, and march on.

[DNall]

Smoozing with Congresscritters and State Houses is great, so we give big bling for it.

what bling is that? Cause I'd like mine.

Officer bling carries extra weight because it makes you look like a real officer.  If we changed to an NCO or FO system your place in the pecking order wouldn't change, but you wouldn't be an officer, and a lot of people get cranky about that.

That's true, but everything being discussed on that subject involves keeping officers but reducing their numbers while putting everyone else in the enlisted end. That makes the officer status more meaningful, if nothing else then cause everyone wants in the place with the line out front, not the one you have free access too. The AF, who knows our standards for officer grades & progression, doesn't see it as meaningful, may even take offense to it at times, and that effects our ability to get work, cause even the truly deserving people aren't recognized thru the fog of everyone else. Would people grubble, well not so much if you grandfather them. Would people quit? You know I don't care. If FEMA proceeds with plans to credential people for meeting NIMS resource typing standards then it's forced down on us & sufddenly you gotta be the real deal & a whole lotta members can't live up to that so they'll be gone & we'll be rebuilding anyway, if you gotta face that enormous process, might as well lay this membership quality control program over the top of it & coe out the end in bad azz shape. No need to torture ourselves twice.

As a DoD civilian, I was in charge of soldiers. I went overseas and wore a uniform.  I wasn't an officer, but I did get respect for what I was and what I did.

The way to get respect from Big Blue is to be what we are: motivated volunteers who can bring a lot to the table.  Trying to dress up like daddy and being a "sorta officer" is just not the right path.  Let's give CAP grade to most of us, save AF grade for those holding a position of command responsibility, and march on.

That view would be fine, except that DoD civilians have a serious progression program that demands professional standards also, and they take many of the same professional development courses the military does. They then at the end of the day earn individual respect by proving it to the people they work with everyday. The folks in that unit know THEM so they jusdge THEM. The CGAux has the same thing, we don't. We get judged as an org by the worst among us. Airman sees CAP Major that can't lead a girl scout troop, suddenly that's all CAP Majors, and there's no way around that. We desperately need quality control & serious professional standards at each level. We go out & do jobs real similiar to the AF, not dropping bombs, but an ops officer is an ops officer, same as an IC is an IC, and they have training for that. All we have to do it pick quality leadership/mgmt candidates into a training program, exactly how any corporation in the country does it, and create leaders using the programs already sitting there for us to use. Why would you want to re-invent the wheel or spread your resources so thin or categorize your top people with the ones you don't trust to watch your lunch much less the border. I think you're going to find that as rough as some of this stuff sounds, people love structure & they respond to high standards. It's true that some people will leave if you make it hard work, but then a lot of other people are going to come in just as fast who are looking for that challenge & chance to contribute & be part of something really important. We can't just stagnate & sink lower & lower as the real world gets more professional. We have to get in the game & bring some serious folks ready to do serious work.

[Fifinella]

As for what the military thinks of us ... I could care less. They don't have to salute us and likewise we don't have to salute them.

I realize this is OT, but I find it deeply disturbing that a chaplain would say this. 
CAP REGULATION 265-2 (for chaplains) says:

Section A 2.  Ministry to the Armed Forces. CAP provides the USAF with trained civilian resources for executing non- combatant USAF missions. CAP chaplains remain civilian resources to the Chief of Chaplains, USAF. They may be called upon to supplement the resources of the USAF Chaplain Service. For these reasons The Covenant appropriately refers to ministry to people who serve in the Armed Forces of our Country.

Furthermore, in SECTION C - THE CODE OF ETHICS, it says:

I will respect the beliefs and traditions of my
colleagues and those to whom I minister.

I hope I misconstrued the apparent lack of respect for the traditions of the members of the Air Force to whom you may someday be called to minister.

Judy LaValley, CAP Capt., USAF veteran