What CAP RANK counts for and possibly should be used as...

[Major Carrales]

Some say that CAP rank stands for nothing.  Shall we make an objective, honest and serious analysis of what it is and can actually be used for?

I think we will see that it contrasts greatly with military rank.

I think the big disconnect betwix CAP RANK/GRADE and Military RANK/GRADE is in the purpose.  We are quick to assume that CAP Rank/Grade is somehow equitable to that of the military.  I think the precedent that causes this conclusion to be drawn is that we extend the honor of recognition of prior military rank.

However, and please reserve judgement...

Military RANK and pay-grade serves as both a command structure and method of payment (career ladder), thus each rank and grade may or may not come with an "office"...however, it does come with a "charge" and benefits of the RANK (RHIP)

CAP Rank is basically determined by, for the vast majority of people, progress through a five level program. 

We start as Lieutenants, finish the second level and become a captain to prepare for the third level after getting several criteria knocked out of the way.  Then enter the field grades representing the sucessful termination of even more criteria until one becomes a Lt Col having completed a series of training.   Higher officer is linked to an "office" or being a "staff officer" at a given level.

That pretty much sums of CAP rank (aside from special promotions to professionals and prior service)

Thus, when we look at a person's collar or shoulder marks, we should be able to judge their abilities, experience and expectations. 

NOTE: The following is based on about 20 minutes of though on the matter.  It does not describe anyone here or anywhere in CAP specifically...it can  be any CAP officer, it can also be no CAP officer.  It is also not complete or indicative of what is actually out there.  It should mak eyou think a bit on what the purpose of CAP Rank is and how varied it can get.  Not that as one goes up the chain there are "diametric opposites" in greater scope (or example a 2dLt can be the ambitous person planning to "move up to command" or the person with little scope on advancement wishing merely to serve in a squadron's program in a positive manner...a Lt Col can be either, or both, the young ambitious person or the old CURMUDGEON has been.)  The strange part is that all these types, and more, are out there and define their epaulet shoulder marks in that manner.

When I see a CAP 2d Lt what can I assume...

1) New Guy
2) possible "bump" for one of the criterias...but still (ideally) less than a year time-in-grade
3) long time member who is in it for reasons other than rank (good or bad), might like ES or Cadet Program administration as opposed to command, or jumping through hoops to change the color and shape of the insignia.
4) Possible new pilot?  Pilot new to CAP...pilot basic? Prior Service 2LT (from what branch?)

When I see a CAP 1st Lt...

1) Someone who has completed a TECH rating, now look at his pocket to see what badge he is wearing and what he does.
2) At least a year in CAP.
3) Maybe some squadron level officicer with no ambitions to rise to group or to command.  Comfortable in current spot...maybe slowing down to get that Senior Rating
4) Waiting for SLS and CLC.  Studying Course 13 for promotion to Captain
5) A pilot of certain qualifications
6) Prior service 1LT
7) A professional of certain qualifications

When I see a CAP Capt...

1) Some one dedicated to a unit or taking a leading role as a STAFF officer/Squadron Commander/Ops officer
2) Has done some Professional development (Course 13, Ben Davis, SLS)
3) May or may not go forward into the field grades.
4) Three year member or more
5) working on a Senior Rating in a Spec Trak
6) A Pilot of some note, CFI or the like.
7) A professional of some note, lawyer, doctor long time teacher
8 ) Studying for Loening, Group Staff.  Some what seasoned at the local levels
9) Prior ServiceCapt/ Naval Lieutenant
10) Former Cadets

When I see a CAP Major...

1) Some where over 7 years of CAP service
2) Possible past commander or group staff officer
3) Bought into CAP...had made expenses
4) Likely currently a commander or person of notable CAP experience
5) Studying to be a Lt COL and working on a Master Rating in a Spec Track.
6) A virtual expert in their spec track via experience
7)If has held the rank a long while coudl be burned out or stagnant in professional development
8 ) reaching the been there done that phase
9) lots of CAP training, Region Staff College and otherbig time stuff
10) Likely to be well known or at least a fimilar name at the WING level
11) Prior Serice Major/Lt Commander
12) Experienced Professional for appointment to that level

When I see a CAP Lt Col

1) Been there done that
2) expert on most if not all things CAP
3) Group commander or Wing staff...or prior such
4) Possibly burnt out, or burning out; could be a past "legend" or (saddly) a "has been" CURMUDGEON
5) Or, opposite of above, a relatively young "go getter" moving up the CAP chain of command.  Maybe a former cadet.
6) Possible future WING KING
7) Has something like 12 plus years of epxerience
8 ) WING Director/Region Level
9) Completed Professional development cycle, either turns inward (become inactive/less active/concentrates on "program growth" instead of PD; or turns outward (wants to help any and everyone) Wise
10) prior service Lt Col or Commander.

When I see a CAP Colonel

1) Wing King
2) Former Wing King
3) Region ViceRoy
4) Former Region Viceroy
5) Lots of wisdom

CAP General Officers

1) Take the best criteria from Field Grade and apply it here
2) someone who is ambitious, or was.
3) Someone who has time to dedicate to CAP
4) National Commander
5) Prior National Commander
6) Wise Prior National Commanders
7) CAP gurus 

Corrected to show working on a "senior rating" insead of "has a senior rating" for CAPT.

[captrncap]

Well said, Major!!!   

[Major Carrales]

Well said, Major!!!   

Thank you, may all the replies to this be as positive as yours.  

I seriously expect some discussion here on this, but I am well aware that when one stirs the pot one can get burned.     I am hoping that from this we can build an effective rubric for CAP RANK, or at least begin to talk about it.

[MIKE]

Point of order:  You don't need a senior rating for Capt/Level II... This is a requirement for Maj/Level III.

[Major Carrales]

Point of order:  You don't need a senior rating for Capt/Level II... This is a requirement for Maj/Level III.

Thanks, I think I corrected it.  Its somewhat precarious to type with one hand while lecturing a group of students on Alexander Hamilton and the Federalists.  I'm surpised I only had one such slip.

[Al Sayre]

The Anti-Federalists were right...

[Monty]

The Anti-Federalists were right...

agreed!

[davedove]

That's a pretty good summation.  Grade in CAP really doesn't have much to do with responsibility, it's generally a measure of progression in the Professional Development Program.

[Major Carrales]

The Anti-Federalists were right...

agreed!

I have always maintained that the modern US is only possible because by themselves and in isolation both the PURE Federalist and PURE anti-Federalist view are incorrect.  One has to meet in the middle.

This condition manifests itself in the current bi-polar political structure between LIBERALS and CONSERVATIVES.  Political stability seems to be derived from the "tug of war" between these political ideologies.

I am a CONSERVATIVE (upper case lettersr to denote that these are concepts), but I will conceed that a total victory for the CONSERVATIVE position might lead to a world where the LIBERAL could be hunted down and gutted...metaphorically as well as literally.  The reverse is also possible.

The best position, in terms of "watchdoggery" and genuine stability is to have a system where both LIBERAL and CONSERVATIVE ideas can mingle.  Somewhere, amid that political agendism, is the best solution.

[Major Carrales]

That's a pretty good summation.  Grade in CAP really doesn't have much to do with responsibility, it's generally a measure of progression in the Professional Development Program.

Thank you. 

The conclusion I ultimately am forced to draw is that if one looks at CAP rank from a "military point of view" it will never be looked at as valid rank.  One who sees the CAP rank structure as "totally flawed" as a military rank structure based on the Armed Services is really going an "apples to oranges" comparison, when they should be making more of a contrast.  One who sees the CAP rank structure as "totally flawed" as a military rank structure would, in fact, be correct.

Thus, it would be disingenuous to think that one should ever be "saluted" for one's CAP rank by anyone outside of CAP or that any military organization would ever look at you as more than a CAP Officer with RANK vaild only in CAP settings.  It is also precarious to think and expect any additional respect to come from the USAF because of its (CAP rank) existence or  nonexistence.

Simply put a CAP Lt Col is just that...a "CAP Officer" and nothing more to anyone outside of CAP.  Even a CAP Lt Col who is so because of prior service would really only be respected by anyone as a Lt Col (ret).  You are a CAP Officer...if you are a Captain you are still a Captain and shoudl be addressed so, but with the understanding that that is CAP grade.  Posers and pretenders are not welcome anywhere.  Be proud of your CAP service for what it is, not ashamed for what it is not.

If we wanted to make an effective use of our RANK structure we would better concentrate our energy on redefining these structures based on what we have today.

WANT TO INCLUDE NCOs and WARRANT OFFICERS?
Could these be used to solve certain isues in CAP Rank?...how?

There is a lot discussed here about NCOs and Warrant Officers in CAP.  If you look at my analysis these such ranks would really only have a purpose at the squadron level.

HEAR ME OUT...

Persons who would at the Squadron Level qualify as NCOs or WOs
Those that fall into critera or situation where they woudl break rank structure

Current CAP 2d Lt

2) possible "bump" for one of the criteria...but still (ideally) less than a year time-in-grade
3) long time member who is in it for reasons other than rank (good or bad), might like ES or Cadet Program administration as opposed to command, or jumping through hoops to change the color and shape of the insignia.
Possible new pilot?  Pilot new to CAP...pilot basic?

Current CAP 1st Lt...

3) Maybe some squadron level officers with no ambitions to rise to group or to command.  Comfortable in current spot...maybe slowing down to get that Senior Rating
5) A pilot of certain qualifications
7) A professional of certain qualifications

Current  CAP Capt...

6) A Pilot of some note, CFI or the like
7) A professional of some note, lawyer, doctor long time teacher

The illustrated segments above are person that might best be serviced by WARRANT OFFICER's RANK or NCO status.  There is absolutely no need to CAP Airmen, especially if they cannot become NCOs, these types would  best be served as a WO of some sort.

Those pilots that want to fly and really done want to command groups or wing programs could become WOs and be an instrumentality of the Squadron.  Later, if they choose to rise up the chain, they will have to relinquish the WO status to take command. 

If one wanted NCOs I would have them at the SQUADORN LEVEL.  The general consensus is that prior service NCOs woudl b e sort of like the "soul of the unit."  They would provide military bearing and do the things NCOs are known for, sort of a STAN/EVAL of the unit.  I could see having one GROUP LEVEL NCO and one WING LEVEL NCO and ONE NATIONAL NCO to administer this CAP program of which NCOs would be functions of the SQUADRON. 

One could not have it both ways.  If one wanted to to be a SQUADRON COMMANDER and was an NCO, they would have to relinquish that position to take command.   Once cannot have "quality control" types also part of what they control.  That would be a duality.  And NCO could rise to be the GROUP or WING NCO, but they would operate much like the chaplains do in their own chain.

That is if you wanted to even do such a thing as WOs and NCO.

If these suggests are not palatable, then I question anything differing from an all Officer CAP with NCOs in the honor position they have now.  Only make slight adjustments to the OFFICER program to reflect the issues.

[Chief Chiafos]

Here we are again - we have failed to define what we are.  Are we civilian or military?  Until we decide once and for all what we are, simple things like what ranks to use and how, become harder than nailing jell-o to a wall.

Once we decide what we are then the answers to most our problems will be self-evident and simple to institute - including ranks.

No man can serve two masters:  he will serve only one to the neglect of the other, or despise them both.

[Chaplaindon]

Chief ...

It's not for us to "define what we are ... civilian or military" CAP and its members --as of this writing (and I expect ad infinitum) is/are civilians.

We may act/dress in a manner befitting the military, some, even many (perhaps), may aspire or dream/wish of being military.

Nevertheless --regardless of clothing, wishes, dreams, etc.-- CAP members are civilians and thus CAP is a civilian organization.

As to the original question, "what CAP grade stands for?" I liken our grade to that of a firefighter (they can be lieutenants, captains, etc) or police/LEO (they can be corporals, sergeants, LTs, Capts, Majors, Colonels and so forth). Firefighter "rank" is a real thing under ICS on the fire ground. Our grade can be likewise within our operations.

Simply put, our grade is as real as we want to make it.

As for what the military thinks of us ... I could care less. They don't have to salute us and likewise we don't have to salute them.

Let's worry about soing our missions and leave the "what the neighbors think of us" alone.

[Major Carrales]

Chief and Chaplain Don,

First let me express a welcome to the Chief.  I have read much of your works this month here on CAP talk and offer congratulations as well as thanks for your service as a member of our armed forces and as a law enforcement official.

Chaplain Don is quite correct in saying that were are civilians in every sense of the word.  This was made very clear to me by a CAP-USAF officer who attended (proctored) a USAF graded SARex last year.

When a local reporter asked if we were "military...or what?"  one PAO member began with a sort of spiel about "paramilitary," "auxiliary" and other such language to which the CAP-USAF LT COL said "They are all civilians...nothing more.  Some might be retired military...but they are all volunteers."

The fact is the the word "Civil" is in our title, as in "Civil Defense."  I don't want to say it but the schizophrenia may be built into what we are.  It might be that, at most, we can reach a reasonable balance.  Some more workable solution.

Simply put, anyone who has the forlorn hope that the USAF will embrace us as "brothers" or "fellows" is operating under an illusion.   Our rank is designed for us...that is why I analyzed who was at each RANK in hopes we could mold that to a more reasonable solution to the Rank ISSUE.

We here all serve more than two masters as it is...our work, our family, Our Church and our community then "CAP."  I love it when I have the time to be a 100% CAPer, like during SUMMER VACATION and SPRING BREAK.  But how many non teaching people can do that.  We have to take long vacations at odd times to attend REDCAPs.  Then there are those professional development courses in distant places that require time off.

But, you know what?  We do it gladly.  That is the heart of a volunteer...and an unpaid one at that.

Chief, I am going to help you and support you in your visions...however, you must limit those visions to the realities of the organization.  We can make CAP more military...and we will!  However, we cannot be more than we are nor pose or pretend to be.

If you want NCOs...consider my proposals and those of others and reach a reasonable, viable and infraggable plan.  Than we will push it together, my friend.

Major Carrales

[CAP428]

This is an interesting thread with good posts.  But I see Senior Members' CAP grade/rank, though differing from cadet grade/rank in many many ways, also can serve a common purpose:  a motivational tool for members.

Whether you're a 12-year-old airman or a 60+ Lt Col or something, earning a new grade can be a good way to motivate yourself to do more, especially when you might have been slowing down or burning out.

[Major Carrales]

This is an interesting thread with good posts.  But I see Senior Members' CAP grade/rank, though differing from cadet grade/rank in many many ways, also can serve a common purpose:  a motivational tool for members.

Whether you're a 12-year-old airman or a 60+ Lt Col or something, earning a new grade can be a good way to motivate yourself to do more, especially when you might have been slowing down or burning out.

Agreed, there is a sense of pride in earning such an award.  I never took any "brevet" or advancement for professional skill (as a teacher at the time I could have been a 1LT early)  I liked going up the chain, the reason being that I was not cool with the fact that I would be a 1LT and know very little about CAP.

[Chief Chiafos]

Major C,

I respect your posts immensely and have thought a lot about what you have said - you are probably right.  CAP is a bastard child and will never be legitimate in the military world - no matter what we do.

I don't ever see a day when the Air Force will embrace us as 'brothers', my sights are much lower.  It is the embarrassment and contempt for CAP widely held in the Air Force that perhaps we can change.  Brothers? Not possible.  Partners? Maybe.  That is why I believe military skills are so important to CAP: uniform wear, customs and courtesies, a simple road to earning respect.

[A.Member]

As for what the military thinks of us ... I could care less. They don't have to salute us and likewise we don't have to salute them.

Well, you're right about the fact that ultimately we are a civilian organization but the above statement (my emphasis added) is not correct.   

While military personnel are not required to salute a CAP member, if a CAP member is wearing an AF-style uniform (the only time salutes are rendered or received) they will salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank.

You can brush up on customs and courtesies here:
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084356.pdf

In doing so, you'll also find this statement:

As a member of the Civil Air Patrol, you represent the Air Force and the nation when you represent the CAP. Therefore, it is essential that you understand and follow established military customs and courtesies.

[Major Carrales]

Chief,

I too offer my most deep respect to you and your accomplishments.  I hope we can work together to improve the Civil Air Patrol.

I think the most we can ever expect from the USAF is gratitude.  Based on the current missions of CAP and past history the USAF will never allow civilian auxiliarists to hold an equal standing in the USAF.  We are part of their FAMILY, but a whole different branch.  They might exalt us to a position of honor or lower us to  position of scorn, but embrace us as equals...it cannot happen.  Partners? As you said...maybe.  Friends...we can only hope so. 

Uniform wear, customs and courtesies is a simple road to earning respect, and I hope we can implement things that will improve this.  However, we must understand that the RANK structure of CAP is its own device.

My main concern is the what some would call "waste" in revamping a program that's purpose is to measure progress through CAP.  If we create a new class where there are Airmen, NCOs, Officer and the like...and create criteria for each.  The shock of implementation maybe too much to the organization to bear. 

CAP officers are currently making many sacrifices for their local units.  Purchasing personal equipment in the area of COMMs, spending dollars ad infinitum on countless uniform items, pumping money into cadet programs so they will have the basics to function.  Adding additional burdens, such as week long classes to keep their long held and earned rank or striping them of their rank is a poor way to say thank you.

There have been many proposals this month, but none of them concentrates on the TRANSITION from the old to the new.

I would say that is where your focus needs to be, Chief.  If you have a plan hammered out...be it any of them here or in your personnel pondering; work on a viable implementation plan that will be easiest for the organization to bear.  No need to bleed the organization, especially if it still as to remain operational.

I will stay in CAP no matter what happens to the RANK structure or if there are WOs, NCOs, AIRMEN or the like.  'Tis infinitely greater for me to adjust to change than for the organization to adjust to my Visions.

[Chaplaindon]

A.member ...

If (and when) Customs and courtesies by CAP adult "officers" are seen by NHQ to merit inclusion in a regulation or at the very least a CAPM (e.g. 39-1) and not merely a pamphlet, I will consider this mandatory otherwise saluting is advisory and an optional "courtesy."

[DNall]

Customs & Coutesies are mandatory & refusing to render them when required to do so is cause for disciplinary action up to removal if neccessary. We work for the AF, we follow thier rules & example. I appreciate you expertise & contribution, but you can get on board or find another place to volunteer your time, and that goes for everyone.