SQTR's

[Capination]

I've been reviewing the SQTR's for OSC and PSC and I have a couple of questions. First, why would a PSC be required to be FRO? Second, what is the purpose of requiring an OPS to be certified first as PSC? The PSC provides support to the OSC. Wouldn't it make more sense to be first OSC, know the operations section and then go to Planning? A master operations section chief would be more prepared to work in Planning given that he/she knows the details of the operations section and what it needs to operate smoothly. Comments?

[JeffDG]

You said it:  PSC supports OSC. 

The PSC does need a strong background in the Operations Section.  The PSC needs to be either an AOBD (+ a ground qual) or a GBD (+ and aircrew qual), so they already need to operate at a senior level within the Ops Section.

Why the PSC needs to be an FRO, I don't know the answer to, but having senior section chiefs be able to understand and perform the FRO function is a good thing.

[Eclipse]

You may have an OSC and no PSC, but planning needs to be done whether you have one or not.

After the IC the OSC is the most important player on the high end of the board, and needs a fundamental understanding of all the
pieces, including planning.

[SARDOC]

Maybe, Just Maybe the reason the PSC needs FRO is for the training into when a flight can be released especially when doing planning for the next operational work period in regards to identifying Crew Rest Periods and/or weather forecast considerations among many other things that can be predicted to identify safety of flight issues.  I'm just spitballing because I haven't gotten that far but that's just my guess.

[EMT-83]

Remember, the PSC needs to have taken the FRO course, but not necessarily be an FRO.

Completion of the course doesn't automatically put you on the Wing's list of approved FROs, but does meet the SQTR requirement.

[SARDOC]

Remember, the PSC needs to have taken the FRO course, but not necessarily be an FRO.

Completion of the course doesn't automatically put you on the Wing's list of approved FROs, but does meet the SQTR requirement.

The SQTR Worksheet now found in eServices for AOBD/PSC Says "Flight Release Officer"  Not just the FRO Training.  In Order for your FRO to show up on SQTR you have to have to take the training, be nominated by your commander and Approved by the Approving Authority...Sounds like you have to be an FRO not just take the really weak online course for it.

[EMT-83]

Nope. Just went through this for a new PSC.

[Capination]

Nope. Just went through this for a new PSC.

I already have my FRO Training and it is showing on the Training tab in my member's record (eServices). Nonetheless, the FRO is not showing as "completed on my PSC SQTR

[JeffDG]

Nope. Just went through this for a new PSC.

I already have my FRO Training and it is showing on the Training tab in my member's record (eServices). Nonetheless, the FRO is not showing as "completed on my PSC SQTR

Same for me.  The date of the FRO training in the "Advanced Tasks" part reflects when I did the course, but the "FRO" in the prerequisites reflects when I received my FRO appointment.

[davidsinn]

Nope. Just went through this for a new PSC.

I already have my FRO Training and it is showing on the Training tab in my member's record (eServices). Nonetheless, the FRO is not showing as "completed on my PSC SQTR

Same for me.  The date of the FRO training in the "Advanced Tasks" part reflects when I did the course, but the "FRO" in the prerequisites reflects when I received my FRO appointment.

Isn't that backwards? Shouldn't the training be before the appointment to the position?

[JeffDG]

Isn't that backwards? Shouldn't the training be before the appointment to the position?

It did...look at the "year"

Also, some people were FROs before the training course existed, so that could account for a "cart before the horse" situation too.

Oh wait...you mean logically.

I'd guess that's a "bug"...the FRO training was required previously...now that it's a prereq, they haven't removed it.

[Capination]

Nope. Just went through this for a new PSC.

I just got an answer from J. Desmarais. He said that in order to comply with PSC pre-requisites you need the FRO designation, not just the FRO Training.

[SARDOC]

Nope. Just went through this for a new PSC.

I just got an answer from J. Desmarais. He said that in order to comply with PSC pre-requisites you need the FRO designation, not just the FRO Training.

That's what I thought too.  I think it may eventually start causing problems unless they loosen the restrictions on how many FRO's they can have.  The current practice it for wings to keep FRO's to a small group to ensure a good QA program.  It will be a problem when someone can't go through the training pipeline because they are at their limit of FRO's.  You will have a bunch of  ES members who can't get past Mission Observer or ground Branch Director because they can't be designated an FRO.  What's gonna happen when a small group of IC's aren't available and their won't be one available for missions.  It's going to create a bottleneck in the training program.

[EMT-83]

Nope. Just went through this for a new PSC.

I just got an answer from J. Desmarais. He said that in order to comply with PSC pre-requisites you need the FRO designation, not just the FRO Training.

... And we got a different answer two weeks ago.

Someday, but probably not in my lifetime, the rules will be clearly written and understandable by all.

[JeffDG]

Nope. Just went through this for a new PSC.

I just got an answer from J. Desmarais. He said that in order to comply with PSC pre-requisites you need the FRO designation, not just the FRO Training.

That's what I thought too.  I think it may eventually start causing problems unless they loosen the restrictions on how many FRO's they can have.  The current practice it for wings to keep FRO's to a small group to ensure a good QA program.  It will be a problem when someone can't go through the training pipeline because they are at their limit of FRO's.  You will have a bunch of  ES members who can't get past Mission Observer or ground Branch Director because they can't be designated an FRO.  What's gonna happen when a small group of IC's aren't available and their won't be one available for missions.  It's going to create a bottleneck in the training program.

I know one method is to utilize "mission FROs".  They are appointed like regular FROs, but they are restricted from doing day-to-day FRO duties.  For example, when I requested an FRO appointment, I specifically requested FRO privileges only on training or actual missions where I am serving as either a branch director (AOBD) or Section Chief (training for PSC then on to OSC later).

I believe that AOBDs need it.  I like to brief and release flights as part of one process. 

PSCs...not so much...in my view of the PSC role, he/she shouldn't be doing flight-releases anyway, well maybe demob is within the realm of PSC, but otherwise flight releases are really the domain of the Ops Section.

[SARDOC]

Yes, AOBD's need to be FRO as well.  last I spoke to my reps in my wing.  They were resistant to doing this On again off again FRO.  The opinion is that their is way too much liability in the case of an incorrectly released flight in the event of a mishap that they want qualified FRO's to be well versed in the practice of releasing flights not just during to occasional mission but during normal operations so they can learn effectively.  Mission OP Tempos tend to lead to a relatively inexperienced person to make mistakes.

[JeffDG]

Yes, AOBD's need to be FRO as well.  last I spoke to my reps in my wing.  They were resistant to doing this On again off again FRO.  The opinion is that their is way too much liability in the case of an incorrectly released flight in the event of a mishap that they want qualified FRO's to be well versed in the practice of releasing flights not just during to occasional mission but during normal operations so they can learn effectively.  Mission OP Tempos tend to lead to a relatively inexperienced person to make mistakes.

There's no formal "on/off" switch that comes with the appointment.  It's simply an understanding between myself and the wing that I will not exercise the privileges except in the agreed situation.  If Wing doesn't trust you to stick to such an agreement, then really, they shouldn't trust you to be doing flight releases anyway.

Even as a "mission only" FRO, I believe that I've released more flights than any other FRO in the wing this calendar year...but that comes from being AOBD on two large wing-wide missions.

The thing about the ops tempo of a mission is that it's actually simpler.  You have comms a lot of the time to keep track of your crews.  You're usually doing face-to-face briefings and debriefings (not all the time but most of the time), and you have clear mission parameters to match your sorties up against.  Whereas with day-to-day, you have a mish-mash of mission symbols, objectives, conditions (missions are usually a short time period) and personalities to deal with, usually doing briefings/debriefings over the phone, etc.

[Capination]

Ok guys...this is the official response from our DOV at National:

Does a candidate to AOBD need to be designated FRO?  YES, but ONLY in Ops Qual, not WMIRS.

FRO is a prerequisite qualification to hold a higher qualification such as Operations Section Chief, Air Operations Branch Director and any IC level.

CAPR 60-1 states that FROs are CAP senior members designated in WMIRS as Flight Release Officers by region or wing commander, or their designee.

Ops Qual currently bunches FRO under an APPOINTMENTS tab, and further uses the term "Appointment" in reference to FRO qualification.  This is causing confusion in the field, and in some cases wings are disapproving FRO qualification, believing this "appointment" will allow a member to release flights.  In fact, the additional step of a "designation" in WMIRS is required.

NHQ is removing any reference to "appointment" of FRO's in Ops Qual, and changing the semantic to FRO Qualified or FRO Qualification, etc.

I.T. has already reworded "select FRO's" in WMIRS to reflect the DESIGNATE FRO terminology. (see attachment).
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Therefore, it must be communicated to all Wing CC's, Operations and Emergency Services OPR's that in order to comply with the FRO prerequisite in the SQTR's the AOBD, PSC, or OPS candidate just need to complete the FRO training. Then, the FRO SQTR need to be activated IN OPS QUAL's. Doing this will not designated the candidate as FRO in WMIRS. In order to be "Designated FRO" in WMIRS the Wing CC must activate the FRO thingy in WMIRS.

National already did some IT changes to separate the OPS/QUAL FRO module from the WMIRS FRO module and will be communicating this across the board.

PS: Kil kill kill the thingy!