cadet rank on both sides

[flyguy06]

I understood he reasoning behind Senior Members putting rank on both collars, but why cadets? Cadets are trainees with temporary rank. Plus now they have to buy two ranks instead of one.

[MIKE]

I think it looks better on both sides, acknowledging that it does cost a lot more.  What I don't like is that it didn't carry over to the service uniforms. as well.. And I  think C/AB should wear the shields without stripes instead of the CAP cutouts.

[RiverAux]

Who needs the cutouts when you've already got a big tape on BDUs or a badge on your blue shirt saying "Civil Air Patrol".  Having CAP there was redundant. 

[DNall]

I think it looks better on both sides, acknowledging that it does cost a lot more.  What I don't like is that it didn't carry over to the service uniforms. as well.. And I  think C/AB should wear the shields without stripes instead of the CAP cutouts.

I don't like the shield for AB. There's no insignia for that grade in the AF & that or cutouts (which they need for service dress) is fine. I understand the need for something because we have people six months in still waiting on items to be shipped...

Which pbrings me to the issue at hand, I like the grade on both sides in theory, absolutely it should be the same on both blues & bdus, no question at all. However, I tend to side with going BACK to grade on one side just for enlisted cadets. It's a simple matter of logistics that I physically (and fiscially) can't keep enough of the right stuff on hand to have hardly anyone in correct uniform, and that's disgraceful. Sure vanguard is part of the problem, but this rule change at this time doesn't make it any easier. These kids work real hard for their promotions & when it's acknolowdged with an "oh we don't have any of those stripes, but you're promoted & maybe we'll be able to take care of you when you promote again in 2-3 months." How long does a 13yo retain past those kinds of disappointments.

[RiverAux]

Now I am painfully aware that cadet program funds are often very limited at the squadron level, but if this is a significant problem can't you lay in a big enough stock ahead of time to avoid the problem? 

[MIKE]

My unit has the Cadet Airmen and NCOs trade in their stripes when they promote, but sometimes you still end up running low on some insignia when the cadets leave the program and keep their last set.  I would still rather do it this way than ask cadets to purchase their own for each and every promotion... At least for phase I and II.

[Major Carrales]

My unit has the Cadet Airmen and NCOs trade in their stripes when they promote, but sometimes you still end up running low on some insignia when the cadets leave the program and keep their last set.  I would still rather do it this way than ask cadets to purchase their own for each and every promotion... At least for phase I and II.

We do this as well, it works in trading out until you eventually reach a point where a recruiting bubble wipes you out.

I personally purchase cadet items and donate them to the unit when I order.

[DNall]

My unit has the Cadet Airmen and NCOs trade in their stripes when they promote, but sometimes you still end up running low on some insignia when the cadets leave the program and keep their last set.  I would still rather do it this way than ask cadets to purchase their own for each and every promotion... At least for phase I and II.

We do the same, in every Sq I've been to actually. I think everyone does. You can't promote a kid & have them order insignia that might be there in 6-8wks, not when they can promote every two months. You're conceeding some money right off the bat cause the higer they go the more it costs, but we choose to take that hit to take care of our people. That's not a problem.

What is a problem is now I need twice the stock to accomplish the same thing. I was already spending $200/yr myself on cadet grade/ribbons, plus what others were putting in... at least $500 for the Sq, and that doesn't count other stuff.

You know I've made some decent money these last few years, but I refuse to put down that much on a logistical nightmare. It was a nightmare in the first place that I was willing to help absorb for the sake of the kids, while being none too happy with CAP. I'm not getting raped on this cause they once again didn't think it thru. There's a dif btwn turning the other cheek & getting kicked when you're down. They want to hand me some money & clear up the supply issues, then yeah I agree it looks better, no doubt about that.

[flyguy06]

Now I am painfully aware that cadet program funds are often very limited at the squadron level, but if this is a significant problem can't you lay in a big enough stock ahead of time to avoid the problem? 

Again, like many people onthis forum, you are equating the way your squadron does business to everyone eles. We dont have a stockpile of rank. we dont have squadron funds. members have to purchase everything themselves. SO,it becomes costly to the member

[DNall]

Now I am painfully aware that cadet program funds are often very limited at the squadron level, but if this is a significant problem can't you lay in a big enough stock ahead of time to avoid the problem? 

Again, like many people onthis forum, you are equating the way your squadron does business to everyone eles. We dont have a stockpile of rank. we dont have squadron funds. members have to purchase everything themselves. SO,it becomes costly to the member

How does that work for cadet grade, especially the enlisted grades? Literally how can they order it & be in correct uniform w/o laying down for the whole set in advance? I think what the rest of us mentioned is almost universal as a result of that problem. Either way it's more expensive for some CAP member, it doesn't really matter which one. To me it's not about one more expensive uniform change though. I'm willing to pay a little extra for something that looks better. The problem is the expense makes it impossible to get & keep people in correct uniform, which harms professionalism, in addition to retention (the two are kind of related).

[lordmonar]

Now I am painfully aware that cadet program funds are often very limited at the squadron level, but if this is a significant problem can't you lay in a big enough stock ahead of time to avoid the problem? 

Again, like many people onthis forum, you are equating the way your squadron does business to everyone eles. We dont have a stockpile of rank. we dont have squadron funds. members have to purchase everything themselves. SO,it becomes costly to the member

It does not take all that much money to get a nice stock pile of rank.   Depending on the size of you unit, we are talking maybe $300 or so for a year's worth of rank.

I am speaking from experince...I had about 15-20 cadets at any one time in my squadron at Misawa...my annual operating budge for the cadet program was around $500 not counting special projects.

You can stretch this by having the cadets recycle their rank.

The most expensive rank for enlisted is $5.65 C/CMSGT with first shirt diamond.  There fore the most expensive promotion is $11.30.  If you use this rate at the fastest a cadet can promote of 6 ranks per year, you need to budget for $67.80 per cadet.

Add to this that that is based on the most expensive set of rank and the best promotion rate, I used the figure of $40/year/cadet.  I gave the cadets the option to pay it all at one or $6/month.  If the cadet did not pay his dues....all he got was his $0.35 ribbon and he had to buy his own rank.

[RiverAux]

Now I am painfully aware that cadet program funds are often very limited at the squadron level, but if this is a significant problem can't you lay in a big enough stock ahead of time to avoid the problem? 

Again, like many people onthis forum, you are equating the way your squadron does business to everyone eles. We dont have a stockpile of rank. we dont have squadron funds. members have to purchase everything themselves. SO,it becomes costly to the member

Well, I'll guess I'll be a little harsh and say that maybe you might want to consider changing the way you do business.  Maybe do a little fundraising.

[brasda91]

Who needs the cutouts when you've already got a big tape on BDUs or a badge on your blue shirt saying "Civil Air Patrol".  Having CAP there was redundant. 

absolutely

[brasda91]

My unit has the Cadet Airmen and NCOs trade in their stripes when they promote, but sometimes you still end up running low on some insignia when the cadets leave the program and keep their last set.  I would still rather do it this way than ask cadets to purchase their own for each and every promotion... At least for phase I and II.

How about the squadron purchasing a little bit of the Cadet items at a time?  Then when a Cadet needs something, his next grade insignia for example, he/she buys it from the unit, with a little profit to cover the shipping costs.  This is what my squadron has done in the past.  This way the Cadet gets his insignia on the spot.  When the unit starts to run low on items, they simply purchase the items with the funds.  Yes, there will be some start up cost, but you may be able to cover that with a fundraiser or donations.

[DNall]

My unit has the Cadet Airmen and NCOs trade in their stripes when they promote, but sometimes you still end up running low on some insignia when the cadets leave the program and keep their last set.  I would still rather do it this way than ask cadets to purchase their own for each and every promotion... At least for phase I and II.

How about the squadron purchasing a little bit of the Cadet items at a time?  Then when a Cadet needs something, his next grade insignia for example, he/she buys it from the unit, with a little profit to cover the shipping costs.  This is what my squadron has done in the past.  This way the Cadet gets his insignia on the spot.  When the unit starts to run low on items, they simply purchase the items with the funds.  Yes, there will be some start up cost, but you may be able to cover that with a fundraiser or donations.

Kinda adds up don't it? Few hundred bucks a year at least. That's a lot of money contributed on my part or the part of my members that could be better used for something else, but oh man it just look so much better I guess it's worth it huh.

FYI- I understand SWR CAC approved a motion to standardize grade on both sides of blues as well to get rid of the confusion, and that Nat CAC will take it up & approve it shortly for recommendation to NB this summer. I'd expect to see that change made w/ little debate.

[ZigZag911]

My unit has the Cadet Airmen and NCOs trade in their stripes when they promote, but sometimes you still end up running low on some insignia when the cadets leave the program and keep their last set.  I would still rather do it this way than ask cadets to purchase their own for each and every promotion... At least for phase I and II.

Many units do this, makes economic sense

[SAR-EMT1]

Who needs the cutouts when you've already got a big tape on BDUs or a badge on your blue shirt saying "Civil Air Patrol".  Having CAP there was redundant. 

Its a Geneva Convention Thing...
It states that all uniformed military members: AD,RES,Guard and Aux..
must have ID cutouts on the lapel in order to be treated as POWs and not spies etc..
Thats why you see it. The reason cadets have CAP and not US is merely to distinguish between JROTC or the like.  But theoretically having the CAP cutout on the cadet uniform will insure their treatment as POWs .

Thus the question becomes why are Seniors and possibly Cadets NO LONGER WEARING the cutouts on the uniforms?  Id be afraid to wear my uniform if Mexico ever invaded us... 

[Pylon]

Who needs the cutouts when you've already got a big tape on BDUs or a badge on your blue shirt saying "Civil Air Patrol".  Having CAP there was redundant. 

Its a Geneva Convention Thing...
It states that all uniformed military members: AD,RES,Guard and Aux..
must have ID cutouts on the lapel in order to be treated as POWs and not spies etc..

I don't know about that specificity regarding lapels.  We are identified clearly on our uniforms who we are with the bright white on ultramarine blue "CIVIL AIR PATROL."  It can't get much clearer than that.

I don't know any branch that wears cutouts on lapels of any field uniform, actually.  Their nametapes identify their association.  USAF enlisted don't have anything on the BDUs/DCUs collar, and officers only have rank insignia -- no cutouts.  Army officers may have branch insignia on the BDUs, but with the new ABU they don't.  Just name, rank, and "US Army" -- same with the new ACU.

So I don't think that's the reason.

[SarDragon]

One potential problem with the exchange method, which may have been discussed elsewhere, is the new Wing Bank proposal. If all the unit funds must be accounted for and doled by the wing, it's going to be a real PITA messing around with a couple of dollars at a time for insignia.

YMMV.

[mikeylikey]

I don't know any branch that wears cutouts on lapels of any field uniform, actually.  Their nametapes identify their association.  USAF enlisted don't have anything on the BDUs/DCUs collar, and officers only have rank insignia -- no cutouts.  Army officers may have branch insignia on the BDUs, but with the new ABU they don't.  Just name, rank, and "US Army" -- same with the new ACU.

Loosing the branch insignia when the transition was made to the ACU's was a terrible mistake.  It was nice to know what background and career field the officer you were speaking to had.  It took almost 150 years of tradition and flushed it down the toilet. They could have easily kept it!

Get rid of the cutouts alltogether.  If someone can't tell you are in CAP by the other visible identifiers, then poop on them!  It is a throwback that should have been transitioned out.

[DNall]

Loosing the branch insignia when the transition was made to the ACU's was a terrible mistake.  It was nice to know what background and career field the officer you were speaking to had.  It took almost 150 years of tradition and flushed it down the toilet. They could have easily kept it!

Agreed, I hate the way it is now. They could have at least put the branch over/under the grade in the new position.

Get rid of the cutouts alltogether.  If someone can't tell you are in CAP by the other visible identifiers, then poop on them!  It is a throwback that should have been transitioned out.

One more time... yeah it looks better that way, no disputing it, in fact I don;t think anyone has, and it's in the process of ebing fixed on Blues now too. HOWEVER, it is more costly & a logistical nightmare to get & keep your folks uniformed correctly. To the tune of several hundred extra dollars a year that could have been spent on other cadet programs related things, or God forbid gas in my boat.

[SAR-EMT1]

Dear Lord...dont get me startd on what this new Bio fuel has done to my tanks or my engine... Almost enough to cause my dad and I to trade it in for a SAIL boat.