Aircraft and Squadrons

[flyguy06]

Why do people thing or say that CAP aircraft are assigned to "their" squadron? Squadrons do not have aircraft assigned to them. Aircraft are for anyone in the WIng to use. I can fly any aircraft in my state. I dont need to get perission from a particular Squadron Commander. Its just that some airplanes "happen" to be stationed at the same location as a squadron is based. That does not mean the aircraft belongs to that squadron. If that were the case, a lot of units dont meet on an airport.  For example, my squadron meets at a church. Does that mean we will never hae an aircraft? Of course not.

[Eclipse]

Because people are poorly informed, or looking to insinuate a level of authority, ownership, or exclusivity to a given resource.

Its also an old-school mentality.

In some cases it is defacto-true, despite the regs. POC's sometimes think they "own" the planes and can dictate who can fly it.

I clarified this as my first priority when I took over Palwaukee - the aircraft is a wing asset, who's POC happens to be a member (now former).  While I'll do everything reasonable to maintain the relationship with the airport  (they are great to CAP), I have no authority (or responsibility) for the aircraft.

With that said, having one assigned to the same airport  is, no question, a powerful recruiting tool, both internally and externally.

[SJFedor]

Because typically the Wing will assign an aircraft to an airport with a squadron there. Typically, the aircraft will have an OIC from that squadron that will monitor the books/times on it, and let the group/wing LGM know that the aircraft needs an oil change/100 hour/new tires/prop replacement. Wings tend to practice that the aircraft will be located wherever it's getting flight time on it. Usually thats at an airport with a unit at it with a few pilots.

You're right, you can operate any aircraft in the wing, and don't need some SQ/CC's permission to do so, unless there's a higher standing Wing/Group/Unit level SOP that needs to be followed. My old unit had 3 aircraft based at the airport, and we didn't have to get blessings from anyone other then the FRO, but we were expected to reserve the aircraft via calling service, as well as sign the aircraft out in the logbook at the unit, with the expected time of return and route, that way, if a SAR mission got spun up, it'd be easier to locate the assets, know which ones can be used and when, and moreso, help us start the search of one of our (CAP) aircraft goes missing.

[arajca]

It depends on the wing. In CO, my old unit "owns" two a/c and manages a third. They are responsible for getting the maintenance performed as needed, providing cleaning supplies, submitting the a/c reports, etc. HOWEVER, any CAP pilot can reserve the a/c within the unit's designated priorities - REDCAP, SAREX, O-Flights, ES Training, Proficiency. in that order. The only reason they only manage one instead of "owning" it is because the a/c is located at the local AFB, which doesn't have a CAP squadron on it.

The a/c are assigned to the unit, not the airport.

[lordmonar]

Personally I would rather have squadrons "own" the aircraft and deal with the scheduling problems then everyone treating the planes as rented mules.

When a squadron takes "ownership" of a plane, they take better care of it than if it is just any ole plane.

The USAF has known this for years...that is why the assign planes to pilots and crew chiefs.  Because the "own" the planes they will take pride in it.

I got no problem with a squadron taking ownership of their assigned aircraft.

[Hotel 179]

Why do people thing or say that CAP aircraft are assigned to "their" squadron? Squadrons do not have aircraft assigned to them. Aircraft are for anyone in the WIng to use. I can fly any aircraft in my state. I dont need to get perission from a particular Squadron Commander.

I've signed a CAPF 37 and promise to take good care of it....If you go bee-bopping up to an FBO to rent a plane, you are going to jump through some hoops.  If you come to us and say, "I AM going to fly THAT plance" I'll make every effort to get you into the aircraft and turn all the av-gas into noise that you can afford.

For years, all of the pilots in our squadron has committed to pay a fee that covers hangar rent...we know the little oddities about the aircraft and have a corporate memory of when little things broke and were fixed....for all practical purposes, it's our airplane.  It is registered to the CAP, but we feed it, burp it, and change its diaper.  As far as assigning it to an airport, we have several airports in the area and the plane has lived at different places over the years.

Come to see us, fly the plane....the beach is beautiful this time of year.

semper vi,

[Pylon]

Squadrons never "own" corporate property or money, but I don't think that's what people mean when they speak about "their squadron's plane."    A pilot in the Air Force may refer to "my plane" as well, but nobody misconstrues this to mean that the pilot actually believes that aircraft belongs to that pilot, or even to that squadron.  It belongs to the organization.

We all know (for the most part) that CAP aircraft are bought by the Air Force, owned by CAP, and assigned to a Wing.  Where the Wing HQ places the aircraft is a matter of their discretion, but I will say this:

When an aircraft is placed in a particular location by the Wing HQ it is assigned to, if there is a unit at that airport, that unit tends to "take ownership" of the aircraft.  I think that's great.  It doesn't mean that the unit thinks the aircraft really does belong to Podunk Composite Squadron, nor does it mean they think other units can't use it.   

What it means, in my experience, is that members of that unit tend to take good care of the aircraft.  They ensure it's washed real clean, that the bugs are polished off with care, that the maintenance requests are in timely, and that every last detail of the aircraft is taken care of.    That's what happens at my squadron.  There is an aircraft Wing placed at our airport.  We maintain the hangar inside, we make sure that airframe is spotless, and we take care of it because we're right there.  People from other units may use the aircraft all the time, but we're at the airport regularly and can make sure that the hangar is swept, that there are extra flight suits in the locker, that the charts on the wall are current, that the wing's leading edge is clean, etc.

A lot of people even refer to "my car" when they really mean "my bank's car" or "my lending institution's car of which I have legal use so long as I keep up my payments."    We don't correct them, either.  Don't get hung up on the dictionary definition of the wording people use when they say "their plane."   Do get hung up if their behavior indicates they don't understand the arrangement, though.

[Eclipse]

When an aircraft is placed in a particular location by the Wing HQ it is assigned to, if there is a unit at that airport, that unit tends to "take ownership" of the aircraft.  I think that's great.  It doesn't mean that the unit thinks the aircraft really does belong to Podunk Composite Squadron, nor does it mean they think other units can't use it.   

Unforuntately, for many POC's, especially ones who are also unit CC's, it means exactly that.

Its not right, but it happens all the time.

[Hawk200]

When an aircraft is placed in a particular location by the Wing HQ it is assigned to, if there is a unit at that airport, that unit tends to "take ownership" of the aircraft.  I think that's great.  It doesn't mean that the unit thinks the aircraft really does belong to Podunk Composite Squadron, nor does it mean they think other units can't use it.   

Unforuntately, for many POC's, especially ones who are also unit CC's, it means exactly that.

Its not right, but it happens all the time.

In all fairness, a Unit CC probably wouldn't be inclined to just hand the keys to someone he doesn't know (or hasn't even heard of). Some people may think of that as them thinking they own it, but it may be a simple example of good stewardship.

[ctrossen]

As others have pointed out, it depends upon the individual wing. Some wings retain almost complete control of the aircraft, while others assign a specific aircraft to a particular unit.

The latter is what we do in Wisconsin.

The unit of assignment takes possession of it's aircraft via a CAPF 37A and has complete responsibility for that aircraft--maintenance, hangaring, scheduling, etc. They each have their own aircraft maintenance fund, which they use to maintain the airframe. The Wing Maintenance Officer really only coordinates major repairs or upgrades, serving (generally) as the middleman between NHQ and the units.

Probably the biggest benefit to this approach is the "sense of ownership." It's not a "rental" to the local unit. They treat it like it is their own. They also know that if they don't meet the 200 hour minimum, or they begin to lose their support mechanism, they will risk losing the aircraft.

(Apart from airframes that have been down for lengthy periods due to maintenance, Wisconsin rarely has problems putting 200 hours on each aircraft, with the average of nearly 250 hour per aircraft over the past two years.)

Now on the down side, I can see how a local unit might be less than amenable to an "outsider" flying their aircraft, but frankly I haven't seen that around here for many, many years. That said, at least in my area, the Flight Release Officers are going to make sure you are well qualified before releasing the aircraft to you if you're not one of the regular pilots and they don't know you.

The biggest downside I can see, though, is that the local pilots might begin treating the aircraft a little too much like their own. They get to know the quirks a little too well and get complacent. "That VOR or Comm doesn't work, so we don't use it, and since we don't use it, we don't need to fix it." Or worse. And when you don't have other pilots flying it regularly, you don't find out about it until it's too late.

[bosshawk]

Chris: CAWG does things pretty much as you have described to Wisconsin.  With 26 aircraft and a state that is 800 miles from north to south, there is no way that Wing can deal with all of the day to day stuff involved in managing an aircraft.  Our planes are assigned to a Sq for operations, care and maintenance.  That said, any pilot possessing the proper qualifications is welcome to fly any aircraft.  He/she must schedule it with WMU or MIMS or whatever computer system happens to be in favor: can't simply show up to fly.

Works well for us.

[RocketPropelled]

If you come to us and say, "I AM going to fly THAT plane" I'll make every effort to get you into the aircraft and turn all the av-gas into noise that you can afford.

That sounds about right, and you've done a fine job of it!

Come to see us, fly the plane....the beach is beautiful this time of year.

Been there, done that, had a great time.  Y'all have a sweet plane, a great hangar, and always a fine example of Southern hospitality!

He's not kidding.

[flyguy06]

Personally I would rather have squadrons "own" the aircraft and deal with the scheduling problems then everyone treating the planes as rented mules.

When a squadron takes "ownership" of a plane, they take better care of it than if it is just any ole plane.

The USAF has known this for years...that is why the assign planes to pilots and crew chiefs.  Because the "own" the planes they will take pride in it.

I got no problem with a squadron taking ownership of their assigned aircraft.

And so what are those of us that dont meet on an airport or near an aircraft supposed to do?

[ELTHunter]

Yes, it's true that the aircraft are "assigned" at Wing level.  However, depending on how your Wing does things, the Wing may delegate responsibility and accoutability for for aircraft to a subordinate unit.  A Wing may base aircraft in each Group in the Wing, and then expect the Group Staff to handle the paperwork and flight releases for those various aircraft based in their Group AO.

In this example, the aircraft isn't assigned to the Group formally and on paper, but the Wing CC may have made it clear to the Group CC's that they are responsible for the plane getting scheduled maintenance, maintaining target usage, etc.  In this case, you would expect the Group CC or his Operations/Maintenance Officers to feel a bit of "ownership" in the plane, and if they are accountable for knowing whats is going on with it, to also feel they need to be aware of where it is and who is flying it.

[arajca]

Personally I would rather have squadrons "own" the aircraft and deal with the scheduling problems then everyone treating the planes as rented mules.

When a squadron takes "ownership" of a plane, they take better care of it than if it is just any ole plane.

The USAF has known this for years...that is why the assign planes to pilots and crew chiefs.  Because the "own" the planes they will take pride in it.

I got no problem with a squadron taking ownership of their assigned aircraft.

And so what are those of us that dont meet on an airport or near an aircraft supposed to do?

Find out where the nearest CAP a/c is and talk to the FRO or crew chief. They'll have the information on how to reserve/use their a/c.

[Major Carrales]

Hummmm.... (pardon the upcoming work of fiction.  It may or may not be correct, that is part of the equasion)

Have at it...

Senario:  Squadron Commander Capt I. Mencharge, CAP wrapped up a flying activity in a very productive weekend where pilots paid for proficiency with their own money in a sort of MOCK SARex.  Pilots came from neighboring units throught the GROUP and it was good.  Capt Mencharge barred no one and everyone left happy stopping to break bread before heading home.   (A Walgreen's moment in CAP)

Next weekend some of the units aviators gather at the hangar for a sort of Makeshift Scanner/Observer School when, low and behold, an automobile drives up and Lt Col Issie Unknownman steps out with a flight suit and a service cap and wants to take the aircraft up.

Lt Col Unknownman is from another Group, is unfamiliar to the units OFFICERS, FRO and Commander.  The FRO takes a break from the instruction, while Capt Mencharge address the Field Grade officer who has just arrived, and calls the Group Commander who doesn't know this guy either recalling only a reputation of sometime back.

The Lt Col's "paperwork" seems to be in order but on cannot log into MIMS...all there is at the site is a recent printout.  

Do you let the Lt Col fly?  What would you do?  What is the correct thing to do?  YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!

[RiverAux]

Well if the plane was scheduled for the school I'd tell him to take a hike.  He should have called the FRO ahead of time and asked to make a reservation.

[RocketPropelled]

Yeah, that's kind of an unlikely hypothetical.

Questions To Ask:

1) Who scheduled the airplane first?
2) For what purpose?  If the airplane's booked for no-kidding training, the pilot who wants a proficiency hop can take a hike until the airplane's free.

Every wing/group/squadron, etc, has its own reservation system. FLWG uses FlightSchedulePro online, and it works pretty well.  I think CAPNHQ bought a bunch of licenses, I'd expect FSP to receive a national rollout at some point.

Some squadrons are pretty informal about booking their aircraft. I'd assume that among a bunch of theoretically responsible adults, someone can hammer out a result everyone's happy with.

And speaking as a supposedly theoretically responsible adult, if I have an airplane booked for a flight, and someone tries to bump me for the same flight type (proficiency, for example) by flashing a shinier rank insignia at me, it's an ineffective tactic at best, and insulting at worst. As I often say, "good luck with that."

[Major Carrales]

Yeah, that's kind of an unlikely hypothetical.

Questions To Ask:

1) Who scheduled the airplane first?
2) For what purpose?  If the airplane's booked for no-kidding training, the pilot who wants a proficiency hop can take a hike until the airplane's free.

Every wing/group/squadron, etc, has its own reservation system. FLWG uses FlightSchedulePro online, and it works pretty well.  I think CAPNHQ bought a bunch of licenses, I'd expect FSP to receive a national rollout at some point.

Some squadrons are pretty informal about booking their aircraft. I'd assume that among a bunch of theoretically responsible adults, someone can hammer out a result everyone's happy with.

And speaking as a supposedly theoretically responsible adult, if I have an airplane booked for a flight, and someone tries to bump me for the same flight type (proficiency, for example) by flashing a shinier rank insignia at me, it's an ineffective tactic at best, and insulting at worst. As I often say, "good luck with that."

Remember, the Scanner/Observer training is only "somewhat organized."  Like the Squadron Commander or Air OPS officer said... "We did pretty good last week, lets see if we can hammer out some SQTR quals and do some flying to hammer it home."

I'm sure that they could reach a concensus.

Adding a few elements to this...

1) Suppose the Squadron Commander refuses the Lt Col on the grounds that no one can "vouch for him?" 
2) Or suppose the FRO has a huntch or the like and refuses to release the aircraft?
3) Suppose the Lt Col makes a call to Wing and threatens to have the plane reassigned since he "drove all that way" and was turned down by a Capt and a 1st Lt?

In anycase, the "flashing of rank" is a totally incredulous practice in CAP.  While I respect most greatly the rank of those more advanced in the program, I don't think getting to Level V is a blank check to throw weight aroung.  What's more, since the CAP rank structure is based on progress through a program and not a true hierachy as in the military...it smacks of "poser-pretenderism!"  Most distasteful...

[MattPHS2002]

If it where me (and that is hypothetical at best cause I stay pretty far away from the air side of the house) I'd tell the guy to take a walk mainly because if you can't access his up to date info on MIMS, WMU, whatever it is we'll be using next week then you have no way to verify his membership is A)current and/or B) not under suspension. That goes for his pilots license as well.