Operation "Drop In"

Started by RiverAux, December 25, 2006, 02:49:48 AM

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RiverAux

From the draft minutes of the Nov NEC Meeting:
Quote
5. ITEM: Operation "Drop-in"
COL SHELDON, AF/XOHA gave a heads up on Operation "Drop-in" as a possible
mission. The concept is for CAP members to carry a little beeper (basically a personal Geiger counter) during normal activities and if it ever beeps, they will call a 1-800 number. Col Sheldon stated that the "devil is in the details" - it may not be legal and may not be anything that the Air Force wants to get involved with so may not give Air Force assigned-mission status for CAP to participate in this project. He asked if CAP would have any interest in the Air Staff pursuing this possible mission.  MAJ GEN PINEDA stated that he understands this is a program to get as many people as possible to help identify areas across the country that may contain radiation. Based on a few comments, he added that CAP would need more information before making any kind of commitment.

Now, I know radiation monitoring is near and dear to DNall's heart, but this concept doesn't really seem all that realistic to me. 

Wouldn't it be better to give CAP people these meters and then send them out to specific sites to develop comprehensive coverage of the country?  A specific sampling plan would seem to be more efficient, but then again maybe that is already being done and this is being thought of as a way to fill in the gaps. 

I don't know what possible legal problems there could be with this.

It would be interesting to see how they would place a CAP member doing his normal activities on an AFAM.  Hey, I guess I could drop my health insurance as I would always be on AFAM duty!

Fixed broken quote tag - MIKE

lordmonar

The idea is to develop some cheap contamination detection system.  If you are scared of a dirty bomb (which may not even be a bomb but a can of radio active dust dumped from the top of a building or pored into the ventilation system of a large building).  If we are wear personal monitors that detect radiation and they go off.  We call into a control center, they would decide if they need to send in a team to investigate.

So the Drop In part would be for initial detection...like an ELT going off.  Only we are the ELT and have to dial the number our selves.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Chris Jacobs

I would carry a beeper sized device.  It would be kind of fun.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

DNall

Stupid op name. Remember ARCHER? Guy comes up w/ toy, no one wants to buy toy, guy sees CAP over here desperate to adapt to HLS mission, guy pitches desperate CAP. At no point in this process is AF consulted. That's stupid.

I believe stopping the movement of nuclear material across borders, thru ports, & within our transportation system is an important mission that has to be done from the air. I think that's a legitimate place for CAP to help.

It's a mistake to do useless crap to placate members rather than figuring out how to get in the real game on a large scale. CAP needs to spend its time in direct conversation w/ the AF, & possibly w/ DHS as well, on how to evolve CAP into a new thing.

lordmonar

What I want to know...was this something some CAP guy came up with...or was it some brainstorm from an HLS guy that someone in CAP thought would be something we could help with.

Another question...how effective would this system be?  I mean...how many detectors would have to be in place to really be an effective detector system?

I would think that if the just installed detectors in buildings and on street lights like smoke detectors with a small sign that says "if this unit is alarming...exit the building (move up wind) and call 911" would be more effective because you would know exactly what coverage you would have.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DNall

Quote from: lordmonar on December 25, 2006, 07:30:15 AM
I would think that if the just installed detectors in buildings and on street lights like smoke detectors
No doubt!

JohnKachenmeister

At the risk of being sized up for a double-breasted uniform, I agree with TP.  Initially, this program sounds like a complete waste of resources.  Some CAP member out in Pocahontas, Iowa is going to detect a dirty bomb at his municipal airport?

But if this leads to use of CAP in nationwide radiation detection missions, GO FOR IT!
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux

According to the minutes it was the AF that approached CAP about this and CAP that gave it a critical look. 

The name doesn't make any sense to me at all.  The only thing it calls to mind is the old CAP Drop In program where we would send planes to airports and make notes on what planes were there.  This, of course, got scrapped due to a lot of bad publicity among the aviation community a while back. 

BillB

My question is, who is going to fund these 60,000 devices? USAF? HLS? CAP Corporation?
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

RiverAux

Like most CAP equipment, I would bet it would be the AF. 

DNall

Careful now when you say the AF recommended it that you're not talking about one officer that's not in charge of any related thing & not speaking for them. There was also a big question if the AF would endorse this as a mission.

Personally I tend to think not cause that involves extending federal protections to you while you are getting paid to do a dif job by someone else. So I don't see them paying for these.

I also don't see it leading to nation wide detection missions. 10k people wearing detectors that'll be next to useless in reality isn't going to inspire anyone to spend a few million on newer hi-tech detection gear we can mount in a Cessna & fly around borders/ports/hwy/rail routes. That mission is VERY easy to pitch all on its own. I think what you probably want to do is take our traditional radmon gear & fly the border a few times & report to 1AF that you can do a great job of this mission but you need better quality gear & lots more of it, would they help you w/ congress to get it and/or w/ DHS to cover part of the cost.

RiverAux

QuoteCareful now when you say the AF recommended it that you're not talking about one officer that's not in charge of any related thing & not speaking for them.

Its not like this was just something that some random AF officer mentioned to MG Pineda in the hallway.  This was during a formal meeting of a major governing body of CAP.  I have a hard time believing that an AF Col. would bring up such an idea without having some backing from within the AF. 

Now, I will agree that this did not seem to be a fully fleshed out proposal from what was indicated, but the question asked was whether or not this was something CAP was taking to the AF, and I just pointed out it was an AF officer who suggested it. 

lordmonar

Quote from: RiverAux on December 25, 2006, 02:59:01 PM
According to the minutes it was the AF that approached CAP about this and CAP that gave it a critical look. 

The name doesn't make any sense to me at all.  The only thing it calls to mind is the old CAP Drop In program where we would send planes to airports and make notes on what planes were there.  This, of course, got scrapped due to a lot of bad publicity among the aviation community a while back. 

Often the names are issued as cover title while the operation is still classified.  They are some time issued at random by a computer for OPSEC purposes.  So for that reason....Operation DROP-IN is a great name because it has nothing to do with the operation at all.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DNall

Quote from: RiverAux on December 25, 2006, 06:22:27 PM
QuoteCareful now when you say the AF recommended it that you're not talking about one officer that's not in charge of any related thing & not speaking for them.

Its not like this was just something that some random AF officer mentioned to MG Pineda in the hallway.  This was during a formal meeting of a major governing body of CAP.  I have a hard time believing that an AF Col. would bring up such an idea without having some backing from within the AF. 

Now, I will agree that this did not seem to be a fully fleshed out proposal from what was indicated, but the question asked was whether or not this was something CAP was taking to the AF, and I just pointed out it was an AF officer who suggested it. 
Some guy talking, not the AF. They do try to be careful about that so we know the dif, but if this were the AF, it'd come from Air Staff that's in charge of strategic thinking on how CAP is used & also in charge of HLS. The AF has a very broad ability to make use of CAP for very serious work. Serious ideas will come form that level. Ideas discussed at BoG all the way down to what we talk about here are meant to influence the thinking at that level in some small way so they look CAP's way once in a while & foundation builds up so bigger things can happen.

RiverAux

Hmm, if a fellow from the Air Force Homeland Security shop approaches CAP about it, it seems like something to take seriously. 

DNall

That's not who it was though. I'm saying if that were the case then yes take it seriously even if it sounds stupid cause that's what the AF wants CAP to ask for. On the other hand, if CAP-USAF/CC asks if CAP has thought about something like this, he's not speaking for the AF & specifically not the part of it in charge of this.

RiverAux

QuoteThat's not who it was though.
And who was it?

Major Carrales

We have often tossed around the idea of having a ground team member outfitted with a g-counter trained in FEMA approved courses.  The idea is that the USAF would never task us into a HOT zone, but if we ever did go into a mission that started begign and then went to a condition where there were enough roetgens (remember a dose of some 500 R in 5 hours is lethal for humans) to matter then a passive person with some sort of detection apparatus might save lives and health.

As for it being a major tasking in CAP?  That's not my call to make.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

RiverAux

That seems like a pretty low probability of occurence. 

Back to "Drop In".  Can you imagine the property accountability headaches that would go with something like that?  So, the AF issues out 10,000 do-hickies to CAP members.  What percentage do you think would get lost or destroyed in one year?  How many would go walking when the member quit CAP?  If I was head of Wing Logisitics I would probably quit if they dumped a bunch of these on me and told me to keep track of them. 

lordmonar

Quote from: RiverAux on December 26, 2006, 04:16:10 AM
That seems like a pretty low probability of occurence. 

Back to "Drop In".  Can you imagine the property accountability headaches that would go with something like that?  So, the AF issues out 10,000 do-hickies to CAP members.  What percentage do you think would get lost or destroyed in one year?  How many would go walking when the member quit CAP?  If I was head of Wing Logisitics I would probably quit if they dumped a bunch of these on me and told me to keep track of them. 

I don't know.  The do-hickies could be very cheap...what we call XB3 items.  Not knowing anything about this program except what was on the NEC minutes, but I know that a standard dosometer is not that expensive an item.  One that automactially beeps could be produced very cheaply (say under $90).
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Al Sayre

They already make them.  They are known as EAD's (Electronic Alraming Dosimeters).  As some of you all know, I work at a nuke plant.  We wear these whenever we go inside the plant.  They work with a computer reader that sets the alarm for both dose rate and total allowable dose based on the job you are doing.  It would be quite easy to set them to any value you wanted for monitoring purposes.  They will read a field as low as 1 mR/hr.  I think they cost about $200 each + you would have to have the reader and software located somewhere accessable to each member who is carrying one, so figure 2 or three setups per wing so they could be spaced out over a decent sized area. 

However,  I'm not sure if I would want to wear one for the purpose of surreptitiously doing radiation monitoring.  What happens when you walk into Abdul & Mohammeds Stop & Rob and the thing starts going off... The only way to silence the alarm is to leave the radiation field.  You might be putting people in imminent danger if they catch on.  I'd say a good old PIC in your pocket would be a better choice if you are actively looking for radiation fields on the QT.  Read it before and after...
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

RiverAux

I suspect what they were thinking of doing is just mapping out where known radiation sources are so that in the case of an emergency situation the don't waste time trying to figure out what is going on at known sites.   I really doubt that this would be part of any sort of strategy to catch bad guys since it would be so incredibly random, but might make it easier to do should that time come. 

DNall

Quote from: RiverAux on December 26, 2006, 04:03:51 PM
I suspect what they were thinking of doing is just mapping out where known radiation sources are so that in the case of an emergency situation the don't waste time trying to figure out what is going on at known sites.   I really doubt that this would be part of any sort of strategy to catch bad guys since it would be so incredibly random, but might make it easier to do should that time come. 
Mapping doesn't work well with what they're talking about. This thing sounds like a waste of time to me. There's really good tech out tehre from Sandia that can do visual representation mapping & allow for signal search style triangulation on a stronger target... dump that into the border/port/transportation route coverage role. That's one hell of a mission that's very doable & easy to get funded & very much does NOT violate PCA. I don't see why they'd even waste time with this other crap.