18-21 year old cadets

Started by BillB, December 30, 2010, 01:12:53 PM

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BillB

On various threads members are decrying about the 18-21 year old cadets. Some say that at age 18 the cadet should turn senior. Others bemoan the lack of retention of this age group. Cadets in this age group complain about having to deal with 12 year olds or other cadets no where near their peer group as well as the lacvk of challenge in the existing cadet program. Also the problem of retention of college bound cadets keeps popping up. There are several answers to these problems, but it would take a complete revision of CP to address them.
First, reactivate the old Officer Training status for 18-21 year olds. Under the old program is was voluntary and most cadets stayed cadets rather than advance to the OTC program. A new OTC program would have to me manditory for 18 to 21 year olds and require National to design a program for this age group. But at the same time, OTC should allow progression through cadet achievements and milestones for OTC members while they also take part in senior PD.
The rank structure would also need to be changed to go back to the old USAF style Warrent Officer grades. That is a silver bar with blue stripes across the bar rather than the length of the bar. To often senior members don't recognize the flight officer ranks and just considers flight officers as "super cadets". Allow OTC members to hold Squadron staff positions, not associated with cadet programs.
These changes would require that several regulations be changed such as 35-1, 39-1 52-16 and PD training. But it would resolve the percieved problems with the 18-21 year olds.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

JohnKachenmeister

Bill:

I tend to agree with you.

CAP has very little to offer the post-high school cadet.  And since the cadet oath is to "Prepare to be of service..." I gotta ask, how much preparation do you need?

If you are out of HS and in college, ROTC is where you ought to be.

If you are out of high school and not in college, the military is where you ought to be.

If you are not eligible to join the military, or you think that you are too important and precious to risk in combat, then you should come to the SM side of CAP and serve as an officer.  Warrant Officer, Flight Officer, max nix, but you are too old to play with the children.

If you don't want to be an officer, then we can part friends, and CAP can be a part of your life as a fond memory.  Catch you at the reunions.

As I said on the other thread, when one chapter ends, a new chapter begins.  Don't fear the turning of the page.
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux

While I tend to believe that there is no need for an 18-21 year old cadet program and the fact that there are almost none tends to support that belief, I also don't see any advantage to starting a new program aimed at that particular age group.  If we aren't going to keep things as they are we should either make all 18-21 year olds cadets or make them all full senior members and have them participate in that program.  The either/or solution we have now doesn't make a lot of sense. 

Major Carrales

Transition the 18-21 year-old to Seniors as full officers.  (gasp)  Yes, I said it.  Now, how that is gone is precarious.  I would support the CAP-OTS which would include Level 1 in a classroom settings, CPPT, SLS and some staff training.

This would, however, mean that a 17 year old would have little chance, if any, of getting the Mitchell or higher. 

The idea of "18 year-old" CAP Officers might be something of an issue with some of you, however, based on the issues described above, CAP could serve as a college activity for those therein.  Imagine...Composite, Cadet, Senior and Senior/Campus Squadrons and Flights.  A special membership criteria for these "College types" might also help, offering some criteria for those attending college (like lower dues, scholarship opportunities or the like)
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

flyboy53

#4
Honestly, I have mixed feelings about this. I think it would be cool!

However, if you re-introduce/implement an officer trainee program, than why have flight officers? It would, though, create a solution for that rank insignia.

Perhaps the solution is to allow it voluntarily -- with a condition of where the the cadet is currently in the program. Otherwise, I believe the officer trainee concept could de-rail the cadet program as it now exists.

I don't know how many times I've encountered a cadet who joins the program at the 15 or 16-year point, which means that they have to be very aggressive in completing Phase II in a two or three-year time period. Or you have other situations where someone has had an extended lapse in participation due to illness, school things or other conflicts, but kept their membership and they come back into the program at the 16-17 age group. I have a son in this category.

That said, the Mitchell Award seems to be a plateau award for a lot of cadets and if an officer trainee program is created, than what avenue is given to the cadet who is advanced in age and looking at achieving the Mitchell in order to enter the military or for some other goal? Right now there isn't a set requirement that the Mitchell has to be completed before the age of 18 (I checked this fact with NHQ). Yet, so many of these cadets are told incorrectly that they can't obtain a Mitchell Award after the age of 18.  I know of another cadet, one of four brothers in the program, who is now a freshman in college but still wants to participate.

And really, you also open up a can of worms about enlisted ranks. In 1971, I had completed five years in the cadet program, had just turned 18 and was in my HS senior year. I was looking at being the only cadet in a squadron of officers and most of them, WWII CAP veterans, and those officers really weren't interested in cadets. So, I did the only thing I could do, I became a senior member and an enlistedman. Two years later, enlisted ranks went away and I did the only thing again that I could do at the time and that was to become a warrant officer. It seemed like I was just being pushed along due to my age.



JohnKachenmeister

I think a cadet should remain a cadet until he/she is done with high school.  That may be something past 18, or even 19.  The Mitchell takes 2-3 years to earn.

We would have to be straight-up with 16 year old recruits and their chances to earn a Mitchell, but a 15 year old should have enough time.
Another former CAP officer

ZigZag911

I joined as a cadet @ the end of my junior year of high school (16.5 yrs)

Earned a Mitchell in about 20 months, Earhart in another 8-9 months.

Just short of my 3 year anniversary of cadet membership I was pushed hard to become a senior...wasn't crazy about it at the time, and there wasn't much of a program for young seniors...but I found opportunities, and learned from the,

A structured program for 18-21 participation, service and training -- particularly one that reached out to our members living away at college -- could be very worthwhile to the members themselves and to CAP in general.

I'd say use FO ranks and insignia (USAF WO insignia no longer exists).

As an incentive, those who complete Level 2 of senior program (by doing most of it, not by get all kinds of waivers for cadet activities...maybe specify a technical track other than cadet programs...could promote to 2 Lt @ 20 years of age.

It would be a TIG advantage to Mitchells (they'd thereby be eligible for 1 Lt @ 21), perhaps for Earharts (rules are a bit confusing)....and of course the Spaatzen could jump to captain anyway.

BillB

What I'm reading is that most of the posts missed the line in my original post that would ALLOW an OTC member to continue to complete achievements and milestones while an OTC member. Since most testing is now online this should present no problem while the OTC member continues training in senior PD or learning senior duty assignments.
Zig-zag,
the fact that the Warrant officer grades are no longer used by USAF should be the reason that OTC should use them. Call them Flight Officers if you wish, but change the grade insignia to the old style USAF Warrant officer grades. Cadets and seniors recognize a ba on an epaulet but tend to ignore epaulets with stripes.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

SamFranklin

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 30, 2010, 08:28:30 PM
CAP has very little to offer the post-high school cadet.  And since the cadet oath is to "Prepare to be of service..." I gotta ask, how much preparation do you need?

If you are currently an 18-20 year old cadet, then I agree you're an authority on this subject; if not, I think the fact that a few thousand members of that age choose to remain cadets ought to be reason enough to rethink your opinion.

"How much preparation do you need?" Well that depends on the quality of outcome you're trying to achieve. I have high standards for cadets, so I don't find it surprising that we can't crank out Boes and Ryans and Malachowskis in just three or four years.

That young adults continue to find our Cadet Program a worthy investment of their time and effort is a good thing for which we all should be proud.



Ron1319

I would wager that almost all (90%+) of us who were cadets until we turned 21 believe that we got more out of the program after 18 than before.  The attitude that there is nothing left in the program for those cadets is the concern that I have.  I have observed many seniors treating any cadet like a 12 year old and I firmly believe that attitude is what is causing us to lose so many potentially great cadets who could have the same during-college experience that I did.  My sister was national CAC chair after 18, and I would imagine most of the national CAC comprised almost entirely of 18+ cadets.  I also would expect most encampment cadet commanders to be 18+. 

My argument has not been that there needs to be an additional program.  There is plenty of program between ES, NCC, CAC, squadron meetings, opportunity to help other units, or build new ones...  The vision and maturity to effectively manage and retain cadets almost undoubtably improves as a cadet gets older.

We need these cadets to have a strong cadet program.  I was making an argument in the other thread that we could give them different supervisory requirements as a way of showing trust in them.  They are adults, they should have a different set of rules.  In other words, at 19 I had my own apartment, was a full time engineering intern, my own car, and had an opportunity to be a cadet commander again.  I certainly didn't always need senior officer supervision.

I believe it's a combination of over regulating just a bit and attitude on the part of seniors, and that addressing both would help with 18+ retention. 

I'd go so far as to say that if you don't see the value of having a 20 year old c/Col around to mentor and plan then I hope you have no role in cadet programs.  I'd love to just borrow one for three months because they could do a better job of showing how it should be done to my junior cadet officers than I can.  I can tell them, but I just can't show them the same way anymore.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

JohnKachenmeister

I've got an open mind on this, but I've got a question:

What can a post-high school person in CAP do as a cadet that he cannot do as a SM flight officer?
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux


JohnKachenmeister

They can go as escort officers.  Usually escort officers are harder to find than cadets.
Another former CAP officer

BillB

Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Ozzy

Can get actual useful leadership opportunities.

I joined CAP at the age of 17. Luckily I had then-two years of AFJROTC to assist me along with getting promoted. From being a flight commander and other positions as a cadet at encampment, I know I learned a lot more as a cadet then if I was either a TAC or mentor in another department at any of the encampments.

If I was a senior member, it would have taken how many years so get to a top position like encampment commander/dcc/coc?

Yes I see the arguement both ways, but whether or not a cadet should be given more responsibility should be a case-by-case thing, not a blanket requirement.
Ozyilmaz, MSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG Encampment 18, 19
FLWG Winter Encampment 19

jeders

-Get primary flight training in a CAP powered aircraft with a CAP CFI.
-Earn any of the cadet achievements.
-Participate in any part of the CP.
-Participate IN an NCSA. Seniors, except for NESA and the like, don't participate in the NCSA at all, they just escort the cadets. That doesn't give nearly the career exposure that we're shooting for with the programs.

Is that a good enough list?
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

RiverAux

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 31, 2010, 02:59:29 AM
They can go as escort officers.  Usually escort officers are harder to find than cadets.
True, but you're not really getting to do the really neat things most of the time.

Ned

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 31, 2010, 01:58:01 AM
What can a post-high school person in CAP do as a cadet that he cannot do as a SM flight officer?

I've got one for you:

Q: what can a flight officer do that a cadet can't do?

A: Nothing, except get one of dozens of academic scholarships, go on IACE, serve as a cadet commander or cadet staff member at encampments and other wing activities, serve on CAC at the wing, region and national levels, attend RCLS or COS, solo at a national flight academy, wear all the badges and ribbons denoting years of achievement in the cadet program, compete at NCC, participate in our character development program, earn a Mitchell, Earhart, Eaker, or Spaatz award (with commensurate USAF benefits), or train to become a dynamic American Aerospace Leader.

Other than that, flight officer is definitely the way to go.



(For the record, flight officers and SMWOGs can supervise cadet activities, drive CAP vehicles, get married, and serve on active duty.  We need and appreciate the support given to CP by our dedicated flight officers.)




manfredvonrichthofen

Had I stayed out of the Army and went to college I would have stayed a cadet. I never got the opportunity to be on staff at an encampment, I would have loved to though. I did miss out on a lot by not staying a cadet. Although I don't regret what I did, I do wish I had done things a little differently. I would have loved to compete in Wing, Region, and National competitions, I didn't because I rushed to get through the CP to join the Army as an E-3. I knew that I wanted to go into the Army and learned what I could do in CAP and get a leg up in the Army. I just fell in love with the CP and found out everything I could do with CAP as a cadet, but after 9-11, I was in a rush to go AD and do all I could.

Don't take the CP from the older cadets, don't take those opportunities from them that they can do only as cadets. It is hard to fit all of that into your life all before you turn 18. I just don't know how I would feel being a cadet over 18 with all of the legal issues that go along with it. I know I would be uncomfortable in a few areas, but that is part of the responsibility of being a cadet over 18.

Slim

#19
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 31, 2010, 02:59:29 AM
They can go as escort officers.  Usually escort officers are harder to find than cadets.

I'll preface this by saying that I turned senior the day after my 18th birthday, and I did it for a number of reasons having nothing to do with what the CP could offer to me.

Not necessarily.  I believe IACE requires major before a senior member is eligible for selection as an escort.  The only other NCSA that typically uses a lot of seniors, and springs right to mind, is NBB.  And I don't think the director at NBB would be willing to make an 18 year old senior a TAC over a flight of cadets, most of whom are mere months younger than their TAC.  Most of the other NCSAs that have some form of senior member participation do it by invitation (COS, CLA), or based on geography.  A senior member living in Albuquerque might be asked to assist with PJOC at Kirtland, or a senior member near JB Bragg/Pope might be asked to support CCOC.  Another definite difference is that seniors at most NCSAs are strictly van drivers, admin, logistics, or other support.  The actual teaching/experiences are coming from RM personnel with experience related to the NCSA at hand.

Even NCC requires team escorts to be 25 years old. Is this a fact?  I read it somewhere, and I haven't actually looked in the regs to see if it's true, or just XXWG policy.

I would also think that a fair number of encampments won't allow an 18 year old flight officer to be a TAC, especially if that person is a recently turned cadet.  My wing's encampment in particular wouldn't allow it.  We actually encourage pretty much all former cadets/just turned senior to do something other than being a TAC officer (in some instances, we have flat out refused to allow it). 

As a 18-20 year old flight officer, the only duty I was allowed to hold at encampment was to serve as the assistant coordinator for our old job-shadow program, under a couple of older, more experienced officers who wouldn't really let me do anything dumb.  It wasn't until after I turned 21/1st Lt that I was allowed to do anything more meaningful at encampment.  This allowed me a few years to mature, separate myself from-and establish some boundaries with-my former peers who were still cadets, and give me some ideas of what goes on in the background to make an encampment happen. 


Slim