"Memory Work"

Started by Ron1319, November 29, 2010, 10:26:32 PM

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FlyTiger77

Quote from: DakRadz on November 30, 2010, 10:09:53 PM
(Forgive me for bringing that topic in here, it is a comparison and I do not want politics coming up because of it...)

If I may paraphrase a certain chief justice of the Supreme Court: The best way to keep politics from coming up is to not bring politics up.
JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP

DakRadz

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 30, 2010, 10:41:51 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on November 30, 2010, 10:09:53 PM
(Forgive me for bringing that topic in here, it is a comparison and I do not want politics coming up because of it...)

If I may paraphrase a certain chief justice of the Supreme Court: The best way to keep politics from coming up is to not bring politics up.
You're right sir. I removed them. This post is merely an acknowledgement that I made an error in judgement bringing a heated and unrelated subject into this discussion.

Now I've brought the Triangle Thingy in. Well, it's CAP-relevant now... (May still be politics though >:D)
Quote from: DakRadz on November 30, 2010, 10:09:53 PM
That's distorting them. Just like the Triangle Thingy is a distortion of our heritage- there's a true CAP symbol that looks quite a bit like it.

They replaced two of our Core Values with two of the USAF's. I have an issue because it isn't official, nor necessary.

Think the Triangle Thingy still looks the same and represents the historical and official version?

I think it's a mistake- and I wonder if they even know they did it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Nuked after a very good point by FlyTiger.

Ned

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 30, 2010, 10:04:15 PM
It seems very significant to me because it ties into a PRB process and cadets feeling unprepared to promote.  With unclear objectives, the cadets are essentially being held up. 

All cadets should be regularly encouraged to promote, and all cadets should be easily able to identify requirements for promotions, and work to meet them.

Units are forbidden to add additional or arbitrary requirements before allowing cadets to promote, however commanders have the responsiblity of certifying that the cadet has the maturity and ability to perform commensurate with the new grade (CAPR 52-16, para 2-4), which is necessarily somewhat subjective.  Commanders use CAPF 50 to evaluate the cadet, and measure them against the Leadership Expectations of the new grade.

Commanders may use a promotion board to help them make that assessment, but the board should not re-test cadets on program materials or apply any standards inconsistently.


QuoteWe have a cadet at our unit who just reached c/SMsgt who has been a member for 5 years.  ( . . .)   I'm working to understand what barriers got in the way of the cadets who are in this situation and I think it comes from the emphasis being on the wrong material.  In other words, if a long list of things that I would have to struggle for days to memorize was being held over my first or second promotion, I'm not sure I'd consider it to be worthwhile.  That's why I cited the website in the original post.  I liked the specific objectives for each promotion, many of which seemed to compliment the existing curriculum. 

I agree that it would be improper for a unit to add significant additional requirements for promotion such as extensive memory work (other than the Cadet Oath).


Ron1319

Good, Ned, we agree.  That's where this stems from for me and what my point of contention is.  As far as me stating that I believe the only things cadets should be learning to promote is the material on the test, that's putting words in my mouth as I did not say that and do not believe that.  I am specifically referring to adding additional requirements for the first few promotions, making it unclear what is required of them, or making the promotion process more intimidating or complicated. 

As for my statement that if the cadet had been a c/LtC they would not have been passed over for ANY cadet staff position at CAWG encampment, I stand by it.  I did not say anything about them not daring to do it, I'm only stating that it wouldn't have happened.  Because it wouldn't have.  One of my primary tasks right now is getting a cadet who is certainly able to promote easily at minimum time in grade to be more active outside of the squadron and to get more from the program, so I certainly do not fundamentally disagree with what you're saying. 

I'm going to start a new topic on cadet promotions in 2010.  I'll link it here when I have it sorted out.  It might take me a little while to figure out exactly what I want to say.  And.. I realize I'm new to the forums and posting a lot all of a sudden.  It's just I've been looking for this outlet for some of the things I've been trying to reason through since rejoining CAP and I'm enjoying the conversation.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

Ned

Ron,

I'm glad we agree on the main points.

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 30, 2010, 11:04:30 PM


As for my statement that if the cadet had been a c/LtC they would not have been passed over for ANY cadet staff position at CAWG encampment, I stand by it.

Well ,FWIW, I've helped select a couple of dozen cadet staffs at CAWG encampments and I can tell you that we certainly non-selected some C/Lt Cols in the past.  I wasn't there this year or the year before so I cannot speak to the specifics, but if a C/Lt Col shows up that has no experience outside the squadron and whose only encampent experience was a C/Amn, then there will be a significant chance of a non-select for that particular C/Lt Col.

The CAWG encampment folks work extraordinarily hard to pick a cadet staff based on a merit-based selection process.  Staff applicants are evaluated while drilling a flight, teaching a class, and working with others on a barracks maintenance excercise.  They also take an written test and appear before review board.

Any system can be improved, of course, but it is fair to say that the CAWG encampment selection is not "grade-dependant."

Please encourage your cadet to continue to study and promote.  And re-apply for 2011 staff.  We could use the help.

ol'fido

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 30, 2010, 04:53:12 AM
See?

Now how about the definition of leadership?  I can't find a definition of leadership anywhere in the first chapter of Learn to Lead.  I've gone through it twice, but it's possible that I missed it somewhere.  Maybe it's later on.  I haven't gotten further than the first chapter, yet.  For some reason if I ask all of the cadets in my new unit, they all spout off the same thing, though.

Ron
Definition of Leadership??...Basically, everyone has one and they are all different. The best on I've ever heard comes from the Infantry and the Isrealis: FOLLOW ME!!!
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Ron1319

The primary problem specific to this cadet was that they were unable to invest the $100-200+ and 16 hours of travel to make it to the in-person selection process.  Her resume is excellent as is her ability.  My other complaint is that the phone review board called a 15 year old girl at 10pm after her bedtime, but we've strayed a bit from the topic of memory work.  I'm considering becoming involved with the 2011 CAWG encampment.  It's possible I'd be more of a pita than help and rock the boat too much, though.  :)

We can abandon the previous topic in this thread I suppose..  Thoughts on a NorCal encampment in the future?  We're building the future cadet staff for it and I'm fairly sure someone has figured out where we would have an adequate facility.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

Ron1319

Quote from: ol'fido on December 01, 2010, 12:49:07 AM
Definition of Leadership??...Basically, everyone has one and they are all different. The best on I've ever heard comes from the Infantry and the Isrealis: FOLLOW ME!!!

:)  That is essentially my point.  Memory work, in this case having them specifically learn the exact words of a definition of leadership, seems pointless compared to giving them opportunities to lead.  I don't know how it works in "your" squadrons, but leadership opportunities come with grade.  As a cadet starts to get 2 or 3 or 4 stripes, they start to stand out and start to get more responsibility.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

nesagsar

If I remember correctly there was a question on one of the cadet advancement tests in phase 1 about the definition of leadership, something along the lines of manipulating a group towards a common goal. This was years ago though, it may have changed or been removed from the tests.

Ron1319

Quote from: nesagsar on December 01, 2010, 01:55:37 PM
If I remember correctly there was a question on one of the cadet advancement tests in phase 1 about the definition of leadership, something along the lines of manipulating a group towards a common goal. This was years ago though, it may have changed or been removed from the tests.

We have brand new online leadership testing and brand new leadership manuals, now.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

nesagsar

Quote from: Ron1319 on December 01, 2010, 11:11:29 PM
Quote from: nesagsar on December 01, 2010, 01:55:37 PM
If I remember correctly there was a question on one of the cadet advancement tests in phase 1 about the definition of leadership, something along the lines of manipulating a group towards a common goal. This was years ago though, it may have changed or been removed from the tests.

We have brand new online leadership testing and brand new leadership manuals, now.

Online whoja whaja? BLACK MAGICK! When I was a cadet you had to dress up in your nicest inspection blues to take the written test while a senior member stared at you. Then you had to demonstrate proper reporting procedure to turn in the test answer sheet. If you got done before the other cadets you got to stand at parade rest in the hallway.

SarDragon

Well, you're not a cadet any more, and things have changed. Your olde unit appears to have been as screwed up as Hogan's goat. I have never participated in such nonsense in all the time I've been active in cadet units.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

HGjunkie

I'm starting to think it was a joke.  ::)
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

nesagsar

Quote from: HGjunkie on December 02, 2010, 01:34:35 AM
I'm starting to think it was a joke.  ::)
Unfortunately we actually did all of that, no joke. My squadron had a few problems and I really hope all of that has cleared up in the last 5 years.

HGjunkie

Quote from: nesagsar on December 02, 2010, 02:26:48 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 02, 2010, 01:34:35 AM
I'm starting to think it was a joke.  ::)
Unfortunately we actually did all of that, no joke. My squadron had a few problems and I really hope all of that has cleared up in the last 5 years.
:o
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

DakRadz

Quote from: nesagsar on December 02, 2010, 02:26:48 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 02, 2010, 01:34:35 AM
I'm starting to think it was a joke.  ::)
Unfortunately we actually did all of that, no joke. My squadron had a few problems and I really hope all of that has cleared up in the last 5 years.
Sir, this is not an insult- but I thought you were talking about 20-50 years ago... Wow. The fact that they did that so recently...

nesagsar

No insult received. I got out in April 2005. Had some great times at wing and national activities but the squadron was not so good.

the conqueror

  I was that c/2nd Lt. 
  The reason was that "you didn't make the effort to make it to the staff selection activity."   It was 5 hours away, and I'm a 16 year old with out a car or job.  I requested a phone interview that I was woken up for at 10 PM.   There was a C/A1C selected on staff, and if that cadet was a C/A1C, and you have to have been to encampment as a basic before you can staff one, and you have to be at least a C/Amn to attend, that means that-that cadet promoted only one time in a whole year.  Don't we want C/Staff to set the example?  Is that really setting the example?
 
   Mary

Major Carrales

"Memory work" will only go so far.  I can have cadets recite the word "Integrity" and make them memorize a definition of it from a text...but that is no guarantee that the concept of "Integrity" will come across.  After all a parrot can be taught to repeat sounds sans meaning.

When teaching these things it is important to provide more than what the text presents, there is a need to provide examples, discussions and make "corrections" on behavior that will instill the core value.

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: Ron1319 on November 30, 2010, 04:53:12 AM
See?

Now how about the definition of leadership?  I can't find a definition of leadership anywhere in the first chapter of Learn to Lead.  I've gone through it twice, but it's possible that I missed it somewhere.  Maybe it's later on.  I haven't gotten further than the first chapter, yet.  For some reason if I ask all of the cadets in my new unit, they all spout off the same thing, though.

Ron

I have seen that same problem in the new leadership books. The old books had it in either the third or fourth manual, I still remember it, and it is how I worded it when asked about the definition when I went for the soldier of the month board, "Leadership is the process of influencing others in order to achieve a common objective goal or mission." That is still how I define leadership, they were expecting the normal thing of Loyalty Duty Respect Selfless Service Honor Integrity and Personal Courage, the Army values. Needles to say they had never heard that definition until I came through the board, even though I didn't ace the board, I won purely on my professionalism and that definition. They said it was awesome, wanted to know where I got it from and if they could use it and paint it on the wall in the Battallion HQ. I just wish it were still in the cadet manuals.