what's with the boonie hats?

[cap235629]

I just read the SWR newsletter.  I was dismayed to see the appearance of woodland boonie hats on members, both cadet and senior, in multiple wings.  Once again the PAO staff is asleep at the switch. Every time the publish something like this, the problem gets worse.

http://swr.cap.gov/PAO/2010-3_The_Fly-By.pdf

[a2capt]

Boonie hats, berets.. 

[RiverAux]

Just be thankful it was only people from Oklahoma and Arizona Wings and not examples from every state in the region. 

Are we surprised that when a boonie style hat is approved for one uniform that is worn with another uniform as well?  The C in CAP does not stand for consistency. 

[a2capt]

Covers Are Plentiful ...

[DakRadz]

Page 19- the two C/Lts going to West Point and Colorado Springs. I would love to see them after visiting the Academy barbershop. I know, we don't like doing this (bashing people in photos), but as someone who wants to go to an Academy, I'd have my hair cut to regs for the Region picture (I always do anyway) and I would shave before the meeting, too (once again, already my habit). They know better, too, is what kills me... Cadet officers AND Academy selectees.

As far as the boonie hats... Well, there are a few things that CAPM 39-1 is clear on. If you read it, you know that only BBDUs can have boonie hats.

Many people don't read CAPM 39-1.

[a2capt]

Many may not read, but a good many of those, I get the impression, read by proxy. "Well, I was told.. " "he said, that she said".. 

[Hawk200]

As far as the boonie hats... Well, there are a few things that CAPM 39-1 is clear on. If you read it, you know that only BBDUs can have boonie hats.

Many people don't read CAPM 39-1.

One problem there. It's not in 39-1, it's in ICL 2008 04 01. The manual isn't up to date. Blame lies on both sides: people not keeping up with changes, National not updating pubs.

Many may not read, but a good many of those, I get the impression, read by proxy. "Well, I was told.. " "he said, that she said".. 

That's problem number two. There's a lot that's in the basic manual that isn't being followed. About a year ago, I asked cadets "How did you know how to wear your uniform?" The common answer was "I just wore it the way I saw everyone else wearing it."

That was a month after  I gave each cadet in that unit a CD with all the pubs on it. I simply downloaded them, dumped them on a CD. Nobody bothered to even look at them. How do I know? I asked, they all told me they hadn't.

Covers Are Plentiful ...

That's funny. Mostly because of the truth of it.

[HGjunkie]

OP:

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I nominate this thread for the best use of pictures to communicate award.

[Major Carrales]

I would strongly suggest, that next time, before making a post such as this; that you contact the PAO in question to see what is up.

I fact, I have done so for you.

It is possible that that item was allowed via a Wing Commander's orders as a safety item.  I couldn't tell you one way or the other.  But, what I will say is this...always contact the PAO first(if possible) , confirm all aspects of the comment you are making and prepare to stand by or appologize for those remarks.

[BillB]

The Wing Commander can NOT authorize a uniform item that the Air Force say can not be worn with AF style uniforms. Big Blue was very specific refusing to allow boonies to be worn with BDUs.

[lordmonar]

The Wing Commander can NOT authorize a uniform item that the Air Force say can not be worn with AF style uniforms. Big Blue was very specific refusing to allow boonies to be worn with BDUs.

Well here we go again.

Yes that is what the regs say....yes that is what we should all do.....but AFAIK Region and National or CAP-USAF have yet to every bring a wing commander to task for said violations.

So...it make no sense for anyone to rant and rave about what a wing commander can do.

[Hawk200]

The Wing Commander can NOT authorize a uniform item that the Air Force say can not be worn with AF style uniforms. Big Blue was very specific refusing to allow boonies to be worn with BDUs.

Agreed. I may not agree with the rationale that the Air Force gives us, but the Air Force's word on it is "No." As such, we don't wear it.

Yet, we have so many people in CAP that wonder why Mother Blue has issues with us.

[Major Carrales]

The Wing Commander can NOT authorize a uniform item that the Air Force say can not be worn with AF style uniforms. Big Blue was very specific refusing to allow boonies to be worn with BDUs.

Well here we go again.

Yes that is what the regs say....yes that is what we should all do.....but AFAIK Region and National or CAP-USAF have yet to every bring a wing commander to task for said violations.

So...it make no sense for anyone to rant and rave about what a wing commander can do.

I would like to add to this if I may.  We have seen lots of people throw around the term "Wing King" as if it was some original pun.  That being said, a Wing Commander has a great deal of prerogative over lots of matters.  One can make any argument they want, but if I am at an event and a CAP Col says something is to be done...despite the UNIFORM regulatons...it is not the 1st Lt's role to defy the order.  You would think it would be enough to cite a regulation, however, practice and protocol are many times different.

Additionally, there are many people who will wear the boonie hat and quickly stow it once authority arrives, and these are not cadet we are talking about.  Unless we plan to have "Political Officers" in the unit informing about such things and a GESTAPO like enforcement of these things they will continue to exist.

The USAF likely cares little about this in the grand scheme.  I am also going to point out that, based on photos from the fields overseas via good friends, lots of ACTIVE DUTY soliders and airmen are wearing lots of unofficial things ranging from bandanas, baseball caps of MLB teams and less than military pins.

This leads me to believe that "culturally" it is the norm for people in uniformed situations to "customize" to some degree.  Even the students at the school where I teach do this to their coordinated school dress (uniforms). 

This is not a justification of said practices, but, rather an analytical look at the rationale behind them.  Do with that as you would.

[RiverAux]

I think that in some cases having photos like these slip through the cracks into the public affairs system may actually help in obtaining regulation compliance.  Its hard to ignore the fact that people are wearing them in violation of the regulation when its in your newsletter and the powers that be are a little more likely to put the word out to stop it. 

[jimmydeanno]

This is probably the widest distribution that this newsletter's had.  Seems like the PAO did something right. 

[Hawk200]

I am also going to point out that, based on photos from the fields overseas via good friends, lots of ACTIVE DUTY soliders and airmen are wearing lots of unofficial things ranging from bandanas, baseball caps of MLB teams and less than military pins.

And it's not right over there either. We regularly had to deal with that issue on deployment, and I knew of Article 15s for consistent offenders.

Two wrongs don't make a right, never have. When people are told no and do it anyway, that's intentional violation.

As to Wing Commanders, rarely do many of them know of the "variation" until after the fact.

A lot of CAP members keep taking the view of "I'm a volunteer!" too far. Being a volunteer doesn't mean picking and choosing rules to follow.

[lordmonar]

And yet the USAF still doe it.

In my 22 years of AD I have seen and done lots of things that were against the regulations.

Unauthorised unit shirts, strange hats, morale patchs.

My point is that of all the things we point out that Ma Blue may have heart burn about......this sort of uniform thing is pretty low on the list.

[PHall]

I would strongly suggest, that next time, before making a post such as this; that you contact the PAO in question to see what is up.

You strongly suggest??? Are you his Commander or above him in the Chain of Command?

You have no more authority then anyone else here. So please stop the chest thumping.
It's undignified.

[Major Carrales]

I would strongly suggest, that next time, before making a post such as this; that you contact the PAO in question to see what is up.

You strongly suggest??? Are you his Commander or above him in the Chain of Command?

You have no more authority then anyone else here. So please stop the chest thumping.
It's undignified.

All that aside, Southwest Region Public Affairs was informed by me of this thread, I took steps to mitigate this...issue.  More than I can say for your actions on this subject.  You see, action begins where CAPTALK ends.  Many here post all sorts of things on all subjects and end it.  If this is a big issue...why did no one contact the Southwest region?  Much better to poke fun at it here and pontificate about how things should be...eh?

Maybe, instead of bringing this sort of thing up here over and over again, if, when it happened, we e-mailed to proper people things would occur.  Its worth a try.

[RiverAux]

Kind of late in the day to inform SWR public affairs isn't it?  The newsletter has been out for a while.  Too late to change anything other than for historical purposes.  They are not going to have any ability to correct the actual problem -- the wearing of the hats.  Have you also contacted the appropriate Wing commanders? 

[Major Carrales]

Kind of late in the day to inform SWR public affairs isn't it?  The newsletter has been out for a while.  Too late to change anything other than for historical purposes.  They are not going to have any ability to correct the actual problem -- the wearing of the hats.  Have you also contacted the appropriate Wing commanders?

Your "cheeky" comments aside, rest assured action is being taken.

Perhaps you do not understand the term "mitigation?"  It means to correct policies and procedures to prevent things like this from happening in the future.

That is what, after years of analysis, CAPTALK lacks...its lacks follow up.  A topic is raised, it is talked about, then it falls to new topics in a cycle that is repeated ad infinitum.  I think I am going to have to push for more "follow up."  Maybe that way these practices will be corrected and the "back room snickering" will slowly disappear.

[a2capt]

"Where's the ground team at?"

... out in the boonies, sir.

"What, who said they could wear those things?!!"

[lordmonar]

That is what, after years of analysis, CAPTALK lacks...its lacks follow up.  A topic is raised, it is talked about, then it falls to new topics in a cycle that is repeated ad infinitum.  I think I am going to have to push for more "follow up."  Maybe that way these practices will be corrected and the "back room snickering" will slowly disappear.

It took you "years" to figure that out?  It's in the blood name for FSM' sake!

[Cool Mace]

Just so everyone knows.. .Since you keep bringing up Ma blue. The guy wearing it is a Capt. in the Air Force. He knows the regs, trust me on that. But, if you read the story(I'm sure you did) then you would have read about how hot it was out there. The hat helps keep him cool. When it comes to safety, I say forget regs, do what you have to do to keep yourself going and be safe. I'm not a safety king by any means, but it was hot out there that weekend. He was smart and was ready for it. So if someone really wants to get mad at him for it, I'll give you his E-Mail and you can talk to him yourself. Unless you just want to bash him on here cuz that's what people do best here. All talk.....

[Майор Хаткевич]

If it was that bad out there, maybe the activity should have been canceled.

[Cool Mace]

I don't think so. You can train and be safe at the same time. Ever heard of water? There are steps you can take to stay cooled off, and that's what he did.

[arajca]

A few years ago, CAP pulled the safety card to authorize boonies. The AF said nice try, but no. Therefore, claiming "safety" to violate the regs doesn't work in this case. If you want to wear the boonie, wear the field uniform (aka bbdus). Want to wear the woodland camo, don't wear the boonie.

[Hawk200]

A few years ago, CAP pulled the safety card to authorize boonies. The AF said nice try, but no. Therefore, claiming "safety" to violate the regs doesn't work in this case. If you want to wear the boonie, wear the field uniform (aka bbdus). Want to wear the woodland camo, don't wear the boonie.

I remember that. There was also talk of attempting to get an orange boonie authorized. Not sure where anyone would get such a thing, but I would have been game. Who cares what color it is if it works?

[Cool Mace]

A few years ago, CAP pulled the safety card to authorize boonies. The AF said nice try, but no. Therefore, claiming "safety" to violate the regs doesn't work in this case. If you want to wear the boonie, wear the field uniform (aka bbdus). Want to wear the woodland camo, don't wear the boonie.

Ok, then if you want, I'll PM you his E-Mail. Why not go straight to the "problem" then to sit here and do nothing but bash him? I for one won't get on to someone for something as small as this, and I'm a uniform "reg whore" as some would say. But not in this case. I would let cadets and SRs go with it. Like I said before, he's a Capt. in the Air Force, and I'm pretty sure he knows the regs.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Like I said before, he's a Capt. in the Air Force, and I'm pretty sure he knows the regs.

Why? Just because someone is in the RM, they know CAP regulations? Maybe I should do OCS then.

What would it say about his integrity as a CAP and an AF officer if he knows the regulations, but ignores them anyway?

Besides, please show me where anyone is bashing this AF Captain. I didn't see a single reference where someone said Capt Bagodonuts is a dirtbag for breaking the regs.

[SarDragon]

Being any specific rank/grade is no guarantee whatsoever that someone knows the regs. I know many senior officers and NCOs from AD and CAP that were more ignorant than they should have been about important regs. The most frequent "reason" was, "I didn't realize that had changed?"

[Майор Хаткевич]

Honestly, I'd be more concerned about the cadet on Page 4, with a Level One Ribbon next to his Mitchell Award.  <_<

[SarDragon]

Also, two of the cadets on Pg 4 are not wearing US cutouts and the third is. Which is correct?

[ßτε]

Also, two of the cadets on Pg 4 are not wearing US cutouts and the third is. Which is correct?

None are correct. They should all be wearing CAP cutouts on the lapels.

[jeders]

Honestly, I'd be more concerned about the cadet on Page 4, with a Level One Ribbon next to his Mitchell Award.  <_<

If you look closely, I think the one on the left also has a Membership Ribbon.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

A few years ago, CAP pulled the safety card to authorize boonies. The AF said nice try, but no. Therefore, claiming "safety" to violate the regs doesn't work in this case. If you want to wear the boonie, wear the field uniform (aka bbdus). Want to wear the woodland camo, don't wear the boonie.

I remember that. There was also talk of attempting to get an orange boonie authorized. Not sure where anyone would get such a thing, but I would have been game. Who cares what color it is if it works?

http://www.vtarmynavy.com/blaze-orange-boonie-hat.htm

http://www.tasco-safety.com/hhats/hhats07.html#61587?ezppc=froogle (with reflective band, UGLY)

http://www.e4hats.com/_e/Boonie_Hat/product/sb90551ch-Neon-Orange/Boonie_Hats_Neon_Orange.htm

just the first few results from Google = orange boonie hat

[Майор Хаткевич]

Wow, can't believe I missed that. Left and center are missing "CAP" cutouts, while cadet on the left has "US" cutouts. The cadet on the left seems to have a Life Saving Ribbon?

Or HLS

Or it is also a Membership Ribbon

Or Spaatz?


That's the only thing I can think of that would look like that.

Also don't know what that cord is for, maybe it's wing level authorized, but it is worn incorrectly. The irony is, the middle cadet wrote this article which was below the picture:

The Uniform Within
TYLER, Texas -- Often we are judged by what someone else sees on our outside, since first
impressions are always lasting. But it is not what we look like on the outside that makes us who
we are. Rather than how we dress or our grooming standards, it is what we have inside that
counts. For Civil Air Patrol members, it is the uniform within that largely defines our character and
makes us who we are. Although much can be judged by a person's outward uniform – ribbons,
insignia, accoutrements and specialty badges – only the reason within that earned them makes
them a reflection of who we are.
As Civil Air Patrol members, it is our duty to make sure that our uniform within is spotless. As
we uphold the core values we must be morally and ethically sound inside and out, otherwise we
would be hypocritical. Sometimes people wear their uniform for the glory and recognition, but fail
to fulfill their mission within – in their heart. We must remember that the awards and decorations
will come as a result of our having fulfilled our mission. If our eyes are set only on glory, then we
are sure to fail; we can only succeed when our full attention is focused on the task at hand.
Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915) said this about character, "Many a man's reputation would not
know his character if they were to meet on the street." What he's saying is that our reputation is
not always our character. Character is what lies inside; it is our core values, the rules we live by,
but not necessarily what others see in us all the time. Our uniform within is the truth of who we
are; it is impossible to cover it up all the time, or make it look like something it is not.
In Civil Air Patrol, we are given the core values – Integrity, Respect, Excellence, and Volunteer
service. Whenever one of us has had a problem or issue, most of the time it has been caused by
that person's failing to uphold the core values. We can all fall short or make mistakes, but the
worst pit-fall is trying to separate our uniform within from Civil Air Patrol.
Should we uphold the core values only when we are in uniform, at some point this flaw will
reveal itself in some way. For a while, it might be possible to get away with living that way, but the
time will come when success will be knocking at our door, and only those whose uniform within
matches their outward self will be chosen.

Again, not ripping on the cadets, but a picture like that should not have passed PAO screening and Cadet Officers, C/1st Lts all three, should know better.

[Hawk200]

.....

just the first few results from Google = orange boonie hat

Didn't think anyone made such a thing, so I never thought to search for it. May pick one up. Could come in handy.

[NIN]

Might I suggest an opportunity to take a step back and look at the larger picture of what causes these things?

When I see uniform items incorrect, its easy to point at the individual and say stuff like "Oh yea, look at how jacked up C/A1C Timmy is.."   Thats standard.

But whats the larger issue?

Leadership.

Knowledge.

Consistency.

Professional Knowledge.

Not C/A1C Timmy's leadership, knowledge, consistency & professional knowledge.

No. 

His C/SSgt element leader.  His C/MSgt flight sergeant.  His C/1Lt cadet commander.  His 1Lt Deputy for Cadets and his Maj squadron commander.

THEIR leadership, knowledge, consistency & professional knowledge.

If they can't get the simple stuff right, the things that are printed in the book with pretty pictures, even, how can they be expected to lead people thru the other, perhaps more critical, aspects of the program?

[vento]

.....

just the first few results from Google = orange boonie hat

Didn't think anyone made such a thing, so I never thought to search for it. May pick one up. Could come in handy.

I always thought the Air Force issued two sided boonie hats. Didn't Capt Scott O'Grady wear his orange boonie hat (the reverse side of his boonie hat) when he was rescued?

[Hawk200]

I always thought the Air Force issued two sided boonie hats. Didn't Capt Scott O'Grady wear his orange boonie hat (the reverse side of his boonie hat) when he was rescued?

There was a National Geographic program a few years ago that showed one in the re-enactment. Not sure if it's an issue item, something personal of O'Grady's, or just made up for the show. If we have any Air Force fighter jocks here, they'd be able to weigh in.

[JC004]

I think the cutouts are a coordinated conspiracy.  Clearly, three cadet officers getting it wrong makes no sense. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think the cutouts are a coordinated conspiracy.  Clearly, three cadet officers getting it wrong makes no sense. 

Really? I see it happen all the time. They remove their C/CMSgt insignia from the coat, slap on shoulder boards, and are all set to go.

[RVT]

I think the cutouts are a coordinated conspiracy.  Clearly, three cadet officers getting it wrong makes no sense.

What doesn't make sense to me is them getting it wrong in different ways.  If all three had left the cutouts off, I can understand what happened.  If all three put US on by mistake, I can understand that too.

But they didn't look at each other and say something like "You have US cutouts and I don't - which of us is right?" and then look it up and discover neither of them are.  And if all of them have been officers awhile too.

[Майор Хаткевич]

At least 4 months minimum time. Most likely 6+ months.

[Hawk200]

Can someone fill me in on how this thread went from boonie hats to collar brass? Just wondering.

[a2capt]

'cause it was actually picture picking and they just moved the focus.

[RVT]

Can someone fill me in on how this thread went from boonie hats to collar brass? Just wondering.

Same newsletter.  Cutout picture is on page 4 and the Boonie hats appear on page 23.

[Hawk200]

Same newsletter.  Cutout picture is on page 4 and the Boonie hats appear on page 23.

Thank you.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Can someone fill me in on how this thread went from boonie hats to collar brass? Just wondering.

Same newsletter.  Cutout picture is on page 4 and the Boonie hats appear on page 23.

I took the OP to contain gripes about more than boonies (even though the title of the thread is indeed only focused on them).

The issue went from Boonies to C/1st Lts with Membership ribbons to the same cadets missing cutout/wearing cords improperly, etc etc.