Alt color tapes fr BDU/ABU

[RiverAux]

Dark blue with white letters would look just fine to me, either on our current BDUs, the BBDUs, or the new AF uniform when we get it.

Heck, I don't even understand why anyone could confuse a CAP person in a suit that says "Civil Air Patrol" on it with anyone in the AF no matter what color the name tape was since there is nothing that links CAP with the AF on that uniform.  So, a dark blue tape should be just fine. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Since DNall did the bdu's, I figured I'd add the field uniform.

I could see the dark blue on those.

Yup, it basically looks like a Coastie uniform then.

Then it should fit right in with the TPU!

[mikeylikey]

we wear the current tapes because of money.  At one time, most likely 20 years ago some one or some business made money off of CAP members by continuing to produce AIR FORCE blue nametapes.  Think about it.  The AF says "we are switching to subdued tapes" the tape manufacturers said "oh crap, we have to switch the AF line over from blue to subdued, BUT what do we do with our tremendous supply of blue material?"  The answer, those manufacturers got with CAP HQ and cut a deal to get rid of their stock.  Everything in CAP (more so lately) is all about $$.  We have witnessed over the past few years the "Corporate takeover" of CAP.  At one time Military Officers drove CAP business, now we have leadership that foregoes affiliating with the military in hope of finding MONEY.   We are loosing the "AF AUX" identity.  I predict it will be gone entirely by 2010.

[DNall]

That might be a little alarmist &/or dramatic, but okay. I think uniforms are something small that can be used to help lean the psychology back to the Aux side & help build up that relationship.

I think if you'll do some research you'll find that the price of blue tapes did not go down for CAP members after the AF switched to subdued. Then all those stocks were gone within a couple years & the stuff was being specially manufactured for CAP at a premium prices. Of course we'll always transition to new things a couple years behind the AF to make use of surplus stocks when they're available, but ultimately the ceapest thing is to use AF-style stuff since it's obvioulsy being manufactured on a massive scale to meet their needs.

[NEBoom]

I always learned in business you dress for the job you want, not the one you have.

<snip>

In this case, I think the AF (officially & at the individual level) views us as not really part of their club. Some of that is based on reality, & some on perception... I believe the dramatic differences in our uniforms just draw attention to & emphasize the seperation between us...  What I'd like to do is use the opportunities we have to dress for success, or more specifically, to make our uniforms reflect a stronger connection with the AF & what we want the realtionship to become in the future.

<snip>

I do understand the AF tapes changed shortly before BDUs came along, and that CAP did not then or now need reduced visability - nor frankly does the AF or you might see a few less reflective belts. I also understand why there wouldn't be an issue about it at the time, becuase it was recent history & the blue tapes were still in the collective mindset as affiliated with the AF. That's not the case now that time has passed & most people in the AF, not to mention CAP or the general public, don't know that the AF ever had blue/white tapes on green fatigues. As such, it becomes a psychological barrier. As I said, I think the dark blue tapes are the way to go & should be very easily adopted. I'd put them in with the white on DO as well & let the AF decide for themselves, but that's just me. The white on OD tapes certainly look more professional & I'd prefer to see them go to the AF as part of a larger package (along with Blue or Black grade slides for blues/aviator) under the heading of things the AF should consider approving in teh future when they believe CAP has earned them in terms of our quality relative to AF personnel.

OK, I had a big long reply about finished for this, then my time ran out and I was logged off.   Will try to recreate my main points.

First, I think we'd go a long way toward "dressing for the job we want" by just getting everyone to wear our current uniforms (ultramarine blue tapes and all) properly.  Not seeing how continuing to make change after change will help with that.  Our uniforms (all combinations, AF and corporate) can look plenty professional if maintained and worn correctly.  That's where our emphasis on professional appearance should be.

You're entitled to your opinion, no doubt.  But I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill with all this.  If I was to make a list of all the reasons the AF, National Guard, State Gov'ts and other such agencies don't take us seriously, then pare that list down to the top ten, the color of the nametapes on our work uniforms wouldn't even make the first cut (and probably would even be on my list to begin with).  I find it hard to believe that changing the color of our nametapes would make any discernable difference in how we're treated and/or perceived by the AF or anyone else.

And it hasn't been a "psychological barrier" in Iowa for example.  All they've managed to achieve there was done without any changes to our uniforms.  In fact, one of the things they told me is helping to make their relationship with the National Guard work so well is that it's a "cultural fit," as the NG is also a uniformed service similar to CAP.  Amazingly, they achieved this "cultural fit" while wearing ultramarine blue name tapes.

I don't see the differences in our uniforms as all that dramatic, and neither has any outside agency I've ever dealt with.  The distinctions make it clear we belong to a different organization (which, by the way, we do), but there's still enough in common to maintain a link.  I've never found any doors closed to us because of our uniforms.

Sorry to disagree with you, but I just don't see this as that critical of an issue.  Definitely not worth all the deep thought we've put into it during this exchange, IMHO.  But if you think it is important and want to press it forward as a formal proposal, by all means have at it, and good luck to you.

[DNall]

Getting people to wear uniforms correctly of course would go a long way toward cleaning up our image. Yes I agree, further than any uniform change we could make. The problem is I can't send all members to spend a couple months with a drill sgt ripping them a new one for every minor defect till they figure out attention to detail or get out. I cant then send them on to a culture where everyone will speak up to correct peers. I can set an example, I can teach it right, & I can hold people around me accountable, all of which I do, but I can't change the world in one fail swoop. Maybe in baby steps though.

Certainly the color of the tapes closes or opens no doors in itself. As I said, it's a subtle thing meant to operate subconsciously, and as much on ourselves as outsiders. Let me try to put it in simple terms... There was a thread a while back where someone (not me) suggested it be mandatory to wear the AF style uniforms if you meet ht/wt/grooming. The problem pointed out with that is it would make the overweight & such feel like second class citizens because it emphasizes our differences. Does the multi-color explosion on our uniforms in & of itself mean anything to the AF relationship or the capability of CAP? Absolutely not in the slightest, but does the dramatic glow in the dark distinction emphasize our differnces, yes I think it does. And, I think that, among a few other things, allows people the freedom to think they don't need to meet AF standards for uniforms or for professionalism, or education, or training, or anything else.

I think too many things about CAP set us up for failure, or at least make life harder than it really needs to be. I think you can look at an example like Iowa & you have to respect their success, not just because of what they've achieved, but because they did it in spite of the natural defects & limitations CAP creates for us to work with. I think if you gave them a free hand they'd be wearing AF-style tapes & scraping the PD program in favor of AF-style OTS & PME with a merit based promotion system, and they've already made clear they want an NCO corps. That's not the CAP any of the rest of us know, but it is the one a lot of us would like to see.

So just summing up here, does the color of our tapes or most any other uniform detail mean much by itself? No, but it's one little thing on a list of about 50 that we actually have the power to do that sets the tone & gets people thinking like they're part of teh AF Auxiliary (big/little "A" whatever) and not so much an exclusively independent private corporation that's free to go off & do whatever it pleases & not be answerable to anyone. If you want to do missions for America, you have to work for the govt, not cowboy off in your own direction. I think we can change CAP into that picture of what a lot of us would like to see it become, but I think it takes baby-steps, and I think uniforms account for a little bitty coroner of that bigger effort.

[afgeo4]

As much as I like the idea of ultramarine lettering on ABU backing for the new tapes, I have to sound off on the SDF vs. CAP argument with just one statement to end all statements.

State Defense Forces are classified as STATE MILITARY (COMBATANTS)
CAP members are classified as CIVILIANS (NON-COMBATANTS)

Yes, we're all volunteers, but we're not the same.

This clarification brought to you courtesy of a Brig Gen of the New York Guard.

Having said that, didn't we have ultramarine tapes when the USAF had them at the same time circa 1960's?  Did it bother them then?

[DNall]

Despite popular belief, CAP is not classified as non-combatant & in fact cannot be. As has been pointed out, recon in a plane w/ a radio, & or camera is a valid target according to the geneva conventions. While I can't imagine a situation where we'd be called on to return fire, we do fly missions now (on the border for instance) that have the potential to (and on a few occations have) take fire. The AF is merely instructed by congress not to assign us direct combat roles. If we were at war with an enemy that played by the rules though, you could bet we'd be issued ID cards with some different wording on the back.

SDFs are not any more or less in the military than CAP, in fact I'd argue less since they have no federal standing. In all reality, there is just as much chance of CAP dropping bobs as there is an SDF being used in any kind of combat, they can't even take a front line role in a civil disturbance (riot). They are legally civilians acting under state orders when called up, just like CAP are legally civilians acting under AF orders on missions. SDFs are basically the Auxiliary of the Army aligned under the national guard, and their legal status is more similiar to CAP than perhaps anything else.

And, the AF never said we should be in blue tapes, they never said we couldn't be in OD tapes or that we can't be in the new ABU tapes when they come around. 20 years ago they said we didn't need the dark color lettering, so we stuck with the same tapes we were both using on fatigues & no one ever asked again. People have this impression that the AF likes to keep us seperated, and there's a legal issue for them, but otherwise they want us on the team & looking like it.

[Hawk200]

If I was to make a list of all the reasons the AF, National Guard, State Gov'ts and other such agencies don't take us seriously, then pare that list down to the top ten, the color of the nametapes on our work uniforms wouldn't even make the first cut (and probably would even be on my list to begin with).  I find it hard to believe that changing the color of our nametapes would make any discernable difference in how we're treated and/or perceived by the AF or anyone else.

To be blunt, why should your list be the list?

Having been Civil Air Patrol while active duty, I've heard loads of comments on the military side, starting from "Those CAP people are 'playing' Air Force",  to the comment I heard a couple months ago on the Army Guard side of "That's a really stupid looking uniform!".

Uniforms are an issue. The number one thing is getting people to wear them right. Number two would be to work on aesthetics.

Whether you think so or not, one way or another, they are an issue.

I try to make this clear to people, but some folks just don't seem to get it. Peoples impressions of your ability start with when they first see you. Period. You may disprove their first impression, but only if they give you the chance for a second one.

[Hawk200]

To address the original issue on alternate tapes, my vote: white on navy blue for all accoutrements.

One, the darker tape would probably look OK on the current BDU, would match the BBDU, and seems like it would work just fine on the ABU.

Second, for those few NCO's we have out there, white on navy blue would match the stripes just fine.

It would probably be easier to make all the badges match in color.

[lordmonar]

Having been Civil Air Patrol while active duty, I've heard loads of comments on the military side, starting from "Those CAP people are 'playing' Air Force",  to the comment I heard a couple months ago on the Army Guard side of "That's a really stupid looking uniform!".

Uniforms are an issue. The number one thing is getting people to wear them right. Number two would be to work on aesthetics.

Whether you think so or not, one way or another, they are an issue.

I've got to disagree...If CAP followed the same exact rules as AD USAF (U.S. AIR Force, OD CAP Command Patch, OD Squadron and Wing Patch, OD rank) we would be even more a bunch of yahoos "playing" at USAF.

I am active duty and no one really cares about the uniform all that much.  USAF does not take us seriously because they do not know who we are.  They do not know that we actually fly missions for the USAF and other agencies.  They think we are JROCT or something (which we are to a point).

I try to make this clear to people, but some folks just don't seem to get it. Peoples impressions of your ability start with when they first see you. Period. You may disprove their first impression, but only if they give you the chance for a second one.

Sure.....but the blue name tapes and color patches are not the problem.  The problem is cadets in uniforms that do not fit, are unserviceable.  SM's way over weight, or grooming standards in uniform.  SM running around base in CAP uniform doing personal business because it "gives them creditability" and finally it is CAP members who are not competant at their jobs. 

Bottom line....USAF will not allow us to be 100% like the Air Force because they do not want a repeat of the "CAP Maj vs Armory" incident.  We will not be allowed to be 100% like the Air Force until we get our own house into order.   National has to crack down on all those "unauthorized" uniform practices out there, and each level in the chain do the same.

Dark Blue vs Ultramarine Blue....who cares.  The USAF wore UltraMarine blue for years and CAP has followed suit all along.  We have no need to be subduded and every need to be distinctively different than Active Duty Air Force.

[Hawk200]

Having been Civil Air Patrol while active duty, I've heard loads of comments on the military side, starting from "Those CAP people are 'playing' Air Force",  to the comment I heard a couple months ago on the Army Guard side of "That's a really stupid looking uniform!".

Uniforms are an issue. The number one thing is getting people to wear them right. Number two would be to work on aesthetics.

Whether you think so or not, one way or another, they are an issue.

I've got to disagree...If CAP followed the same exact rules as AD USAF (U.S. AIR Force, OD CAP Command Patch, OD Squadron and Wing Patch, OD rank) we would be even more a bunch of yahoos "playing" at USAF.

I am active duty and no one really cares about the uniform all that much.  USAF does not take us seriously because they do not know who we are.  They do not know that we actually fly missions for the USAF and other agencies.  They think we are JROCT or something (which we are to a point).

I try to make this clear to people, but some folks just don't seem to get it. Peoples impressions of your ability start with when they first see you. Period. You may disprove their first impression, but only if they give you the chance for a second one.

Sure.....but the blue name tapes and color patches are not the problem.  The problem is cadets in uniforms that do not fit, are unserviceable.  SM's way over weight, or grooming standards in uniform.  SM running around base in CAP uniform doing personal business because it "gives them creditability" and finally it is CAP members who are not competant at their jobs. 

Bottom line....USAF will not allow us to be 100% like the Air Force because they do not want a repeat of the "CAP Maj vs Armory" incident.  We will not be allowed to be 100% like the Air Force until we get our own house into order.   National has to crack down on all those "unauthorized" uniform practices out there, and each level in the chain do the same.

Dark Blue vs Ultramarine Blue....who cares.  The USAF wore UltraMarine blue for years and CAP has followed suit all along.  We have no need to be subduded and every need to be distinctively different than Active Duty Air Force.

I will agree that we need to be distinctively different. But at present, there are people that think we look ridiculously different. That's our problem. But I will concede that some of that difference is in people being sloppy.

And second, if they don't know CAP does, why aren't you telling them? One, you're one of the people keeping "the best kept secret in the Air Force". Second, I have a feeling if some of you're active duty associates knew what CAP actually was and what they did, they might very well be asking: "Why do you wear uniforms that look like that?"

[NEBoom]

If I was to make a list of all the reasons the AF, National Guard, State Gov'ts and other such agencies don't take us seriously, then pare that list down to the top ten, the color of the nametapes on our work uniforms wouldn't even make the first cut (and probably would even be on my list to begin with).  I find it hard to believe that changing the color of our nametapes would make any discernable difference in how we're treated and/or perceived by the AF or anyone else.

To be blunt, why should your list be the list?

Having been Civil Air Patrol while active duty, I've heard loads of comments on the military side, starting from "Those CAP people are 'playing' Air Force",  to the comment I heard a couple months ago on the Army Guard side of "That's a really stupid looking uniform!".

Uniforms are an issue. The number one thing is getting people to wear them right. Number two would be to work on aesthetics.

Whether you think so or not, one way or another, they are an issue.

I try to make this clear to people, but some folks just don't seem to get it. Peoples impressions of your ability start with when they first see you. Period. You may disprove their first impression, but only if they give you the chance for a second one.

To be blunt, where did you get the idea that I think my list should be the list?  I was just sharing an opinion.  If you don't want to consider opinions that don't match your own, don't read the boards.

We disagree on the level of importance of this, that's all.  Would I oppose a change in color?  Nope.  Do I think one's necessary for some image reason?  Nope.  My experience (limited to only about 20 years) hasn't lead me to this conclusion.  If yours has, fine by me.  Hostility isn't required (or particularly appreciated) here.

A good day to you.

[Hawk200]

If I was to make a list of all the reasons the AF, National Guard, State Gov'ts and other such agencies don't take us seriously, then pare that list down to the top ten, the color of the nametapes on our work uniforms wouldn't even make the first cut (and probably would even be on my list to begin with).  I find it hard to believe that changing the color of our nametapes would make any discernable difference in how we're treated and/or perceived by the AF or anyone else.

To be blunt, why should your list be the list?

Having been Civil Air Patrol while active duty, I've heard loads of comments on the military side, starting from "Those CAP people are 'playing' Air Force",  to the comment I heard a couple months ago on the Army Guard side of "That's a really stupid looking uniform!".

Uniforms are an issue. The number one thing is getting people to wear them right. Number two would be to work on aesthetics.

Whether you think so or not, one way or another, they are an issue.

I try to make this clear to people, but some folks just don't seem to get it. Peoples impressions of your ability start with when they first see you. Period. You may disprove their first impression, but only if they give you the chance for a second one.

To be blunt, where did you get the idea that I think my list should be the list?  I was just sharing an opinion.  If you don't want to consider opinions that don't match your own, don't read the boards.

We disagree on the level of importance of this, that's all.  Would I oppose a change in color?  Nope.  Do I think one's necessary for some image reason?  Nope.  My experience (limited to only about 20 years) hasn't lead me to this conclusion.  If yours has, fine by me.  Hostility isn't required (or particularly appreciated) here.

A good day to you.

You are right, I was overly harsh in my response, and I apologize. I should have read more objectively and thought of it as opinion as well.

All in all, I see a lot of people that think that uniforms are a non issue. I have a problem with that line of reasoning. Some (but defnitely not all) of those people also believe that since the uniform is not important, then it doesn't matter how it is worn. That thought process results in sloppy uniforms.

Once again, I do apologize though for harsh words.

And for the record in response to an above statement, I don't CAP should wear the uniform the exact same way as the Air Force. I don't think we need the same OD accoutrements as the AF has, it wouldn't be distinctive, and it is really not necessary. But I think that a few things should change in order to look better than what we have.

[NEBoom]

You are right, I was overly harsh in my response, and I apologize. I should have read more objectively and thought of it as opinion as well.

No problem.  I do think it's great that we're all so passionate about CAP, and we all want to see success for the organization.  Unfortunately our passions occasionally lead us to butt heads on things.  No harm done.

All in all, I see a lot of people that think that uniforms are a non issue. I have a problem with that line of reasoning. Some (but defnitely not all) of those people also believe that since the uniform is not important, then it doesn't matter how it is worn. That thought process results in sloppy uniforms.

A good point.  And to clarify, I don't see uniforms as a non-issue at all (pardon the double-negative).  The point made above by lordmonar regarding unserviceable and/or ill fitting uniforms I think is a very important issue WRT uniforms.

Once again, I do apologize though for harsh words.

And once again, apology accepted.  No problem.  I'm glad you care so much about our organization.

And for the record in response to an above statement, I don't CAP should wear the uniform the exact same way as the Air Force. I don't think we need the same OD accoutrements as the AF has, it wouldn't be distinctive, and it is really not necessary. But I think that a few things should change in order to look better than what we have.

And I have no real opposition to this.  I just don't want people to think if we change some details on our uniforms that it will have a huge impact on how others perceive us.  How well we wear our uniforms (regardless of insignia details) and now professional we are while conducting CAP business will take us farther on that front, I believe.

Have a good day! 

[Hawk200]

How well we wear our uniforms (regardless of insignia details) and now professional we are while conducting CAP business will take us farther on that front, I believe.

True. I guess right now, I'm frustrated to the gills about uniforms. I have people at my unit that pretty much think: "Hey, these are just clothes!" I don't see it that way.

And I do honestly believe that our appearance is the first impression we make, I am just having issues with not being able to get that point across to some of the knuckleheads in our unit.

Maybe part of me feels that some better looking uniforms might make some people take pride in them a little more.

Then I have another part that makes a point of ironing, and polishing, and being retentive about the measurements. And I do all of that, in spite of the fact that our BDU's do seem a little silly looking. It can be a little frustrating when you have a cadet that asks: "Why bother doing all that?" How do you answer them? Really, how do you put in a way that actually sticks in their head, and then they act on it?

[DNall]

If I can respectfully echo that sentiment. Each person here has a slightly different experience & opinion, just as each person in CAP may or may not be psychologically influenced by making the uniform better tied to our parent AF, and each person in the AF may or may not look at that picture & draw the conclusion that it does or does not mean anything about being in the same family working on the same mission.

My personal view is that if people on either side don't care what the makeup of the uniform is, then it won't matter to them if we tighten it up w/ the AF side. On the other hand, for the people that are influenced by these things, subconsciously or otherwise, it is one of several tools that can be applied to advance a larger purpose. That's all. It's not a fashion contest.

I think CAP must be distinguishable enough to AF personnel that they don't think they are legally bound to follow their orders, that's it & nothing more. Once you've established for this airman (in the collective sense of the word) that this isn't an AF officer, then going any further than that drives a wedge, at least for some people on both sides, that is highly counter-productive.

Is this absolutely the most critical thing on the table? No, but it's a stepping stone that influences internal & external opinion in support of making deeper program changes that move us toward living up to the standards expected on the AF team. For instance, if I wanted to follow something like the Iowa model nationally, but with revamped PME that puts our officers on a target of 80% as qualified/capable/competent as an AF officer of the same grade, and NIMS certified to take up lead roles (including IC) on federal multi-agency response efforts, plus an enlisted or warrant corps underneath to accept the rest of our members who want to stick more to the traditional adult program & focus on one of the three missions w/o the hassles of management... how can I sell that when there's a competitive corporate flying club versus AF Aux mentality. If I want to have that fight in the future, then smart money says prep the battlefield before you put the decisive action at risk. Does uniform changes do that, well not by itself not even close. It's just one round down range, but pair that up with 49 items & the opposition starts to thin. That's why I talk about these kinds of things.

And for the record, I think we should have gone to dark blue tapes years ago & it would have been approved at any point it was asked for. Now as ABUs start down the pipe, I think we can go to the white/gray on OD while we're in BDUs & they are in ABUs, and carry those over to ABUs when the time comes, which would still be dif & distinctive from the ABU tapes they'll be wearing. We all know the AF is sensitive to having CAP members look good in AF-style uniforms, and I think they'd be sympathetic to a pitch based on cleaning up the professional appearance & instilling pride & esprit de corps in this symbol of being part of the AF team. Yeah I think I could sell the hell out of that. We just need an academic discussion of what you guys think would be the best case on ABUs 5+ years from now.

[DNall]

If I could recommend a resource on making people wear uniforms well. Check this out http://level2.cap.gov/documents/GorillaGuide.doc

The first couple pages address the issue pretty well for CAP members that don't get it, then it goes on to describe correct wear & tips for getting there. The first page is actually harping on Commanders enforcing standards. It's around 16 pages, but it's good stuff, give it a skim if you hadn't seen it yet, maybe put it on your Sq website.

[Hawk200]

I think CAP must be distinguishable enough to AF personnel that they don't think they are legally bound to follow their orders, that's it & nothing more. Once you've established for this airman (in the collective sense of the word) that this isn't an AF officer, then going any further than that drives a wedge, at least for some people on both sides, that is highly counter-productive.

I've been thinking of the best way of explaining this for years, but this statement is pretty much what I have been looking for. I think that the AF needs to educate on CAP, and know the difference.

Over the course of my time in CAP, I've made it a point to stop and inform soldiers, sailors, airman and Marines that they are not required to salute CAP officers.

The only argument I get is from Marines. Their response: "No sir, you are wearing officer rank insignia, we will be saluting you."

Seems to me, if there are people that insist on saluting us, we should at least be worthy of those salutes we receive.

[MIKE]

Over the course of my time in CAP, I've made it a point to stop and inform soldiers, sailors, airman and Marines that they are not required to salute CAP officers.

I see this as just as bad as the officer who demands salutes.  Return the salute smartly with a cheerful greeting and drive on.

Seems to me, if there are people that insist on saluting us, we should at least be worthy of those salutes we receive.

On this we agree.