Alt color tapes fr BDU/ABU

[DNall]

Somebody asked me to do this a couple days ago & I didn't have time, forget what thread it was in, but had a slow day so....

AF is going to ABUs soon & will be fully transitioned by 2009, but of course it will be quite standard well before that. Cap will follow with an initial wear date 2-3 years later & the mandatory wear date would be based on availability from surplus.

I & a couple others have mentioned that the ultramarine blue tapes look stupid, and that looking forward there will be a couple year period where CAP is in BDUs & AF is in ABUs, so that might be prime time to strike on making a change for the next 20 years - seeing how we were stuck w/ the current tapes cause no one was able to get a change authorized when AF got rid of the same tapes when BDUs came out.

Anyway, someone asked for a graphic example. It's no tthat good, but have a look. The AF on ABUs will be following the Army ACU model apparently for badges/tapes by using blue emboidery on camo'd background. I provided a badge in white on that background, but that won't be authorized. White on OD seems like it may be too far... yet every time I start thinking that I see SDF, JROTC, ACA all with subdued tapes exactly in the style of their parent orgs.

[MIKE]

How about Ultramarine on OD for BDUs and Ultramarine on ABU for ABUs?  The USAF uses Flag Blue IIRC, which is darker. 

[mikeylikey]

Why can't our tapes match the Air Force?  They did up to the switch into BDU's.  I am sure it was either a cost saving move, or someone at the old bookstore had stock in the blue material we are stuck with.  Lets use the same as the AF, it would most likely be cheaper.  Just think you can go to AAFES or use the AAFES catalog and order a nametape for say 85 cents.

[CAP428]

But then you run into the problems of accidently being mistaken for active duty, or worse, a member impersonating active duty.  Some people don't take more than a glance at the nametapes, and might miss the "Civil Air Patrol."  I think the AF sees less risk of this happening by using different colored nametapes.

[Eclipse]

Other than "they would look better", name a single reason they should be subdued, or anything else for that matter besides blue.

They are subdued on active uniforms for the purpose of camouflage from the enemy.

As we are our own worst enemy, and already know each other, camo is not needed, thus arguments for tapes that blend in fall on deaf ears.

For the record I would favor OD green w/ white, or woodland w/ white.

[shorning]

Why can't our tapes match the Air Force?  They did up to the switch into BDU's. 

Who's switch to BDUs?  CAPs or the Air Forces?  I know the Air Force switched to subdued tapes by 1982. 

For the record I would favor OD green w/ white, or woodland w/ white.

Personally, I'd like to see us back in an OD uniform.  But it really doesn't matter that much to me.  I think camouflage is a little silly and a solid color looks much better.

[arajca]

Since DNall did the bdu's, I figured I'd add the field uniform. Before anyone brings up the color difference between the field uniform and the dark blue name tapes, the name tapes generally don't fade as fast as the uniform does. Therefore, you'll have darker blue tapes on a lighter blue blouse.

[shorning]

Since DNall did the bdu's, I figured I'd add the field uniform.

I could see the dark blue on those.

[Becks]

Since DNall did the bdu's, I figured I'd add the field uniform.

I could see the dark blue on those.

Yup, it basically looks like a Coastie uniform then.

[jayleswo]

One other alternative - embrace the gray. Face it, USAF isn't going to let us wear blue epaulets on blues or subdued cloth insignia on BDU/ABU.  As much as we'd all like that to happen, and I remember the days when I wore blue epaulets on my blues and metal rank on the service uniform, it's not going to. So, embrace the gray and make it our own.

So, how about medium gray cloth background with dark blue lettering/insignia for the BDU/ABU uniform? It would actually blend in well with the gray tones of the ABU and not stick out like a sore thumb like the ultramarine blue, but is still distinctive to CAP and not ridiculous looking. For the BBDU, keep the insignia as is.

-- John

[DNall]

             

What do people think when they see this? SDFs are even less in the military than CAP, if that's possible, yet they wear BDUs w/ these, and now ACUs w/ Army style backgrounds & the air side will go to ABUs at the same time as the AF w/ AF style tapes. This isn't just Texas, browse any of the dozen or so avail from this single supplier (left side links): http://www.1800nametape.com/ By the way, you'll notice about half of them go with white/silver/gold on OD background for grade & badges.

Other than "they would look better", name a single reason they should be subdued, or anything else for that matter besides blue.

Appearance is 80% of any first impression, and in our work most of the time that first impression is the only one a citizen may ever have with CAP. That impression determines the extent to which a person initially will believe you to be competent, trust you, & choose to comply with your requests. Obviously dressing professionally doesn't make it true, but it gives you a little extra time & pliability with people before they expect you to back it up. Looking like a girl scout when you really are competent means you have to work that much harder to overcome impressions. I don't believe we should handicap ourselves with the public or reinforce seperations from the AF just because they forgot to get new tapes approved when we changed to BDUs 20 years ago.

We adopted BBDUs just like the CG, and it's tapes you're worried about making us look too much like them? We don't have to look different than the CG by the way (feel free to look at the CG Aux tapes above as well), just the AF, and I think some of that is self imposed. Personally I don't like BBDUs at all & think the blouse should be cut in favor of wearing the white aviator shirt with the lower half of BBDUs.

[DNall]

One other alternative - embrace the gray. Face it, USAF isn't going to let us wear blue epaulets on blues or subdued cloth insignia on BDU/ABU.  As much as we'd all like that to happen, and I remember the days when I wore blue epaulets on my blues and metal rank on the service uniform, it's not going to. So, embrace the gray and make it our own.

So, how about medium gray cloth background with dark blue lettering/insignia for the BDU/ABU uniform? It would actually blend in well with the gray tones of the ABU and not stick out like a sore thumb like the ultramarine blue, but is still distinctive to CAP and not ridiculous looking. For the BBDU, keep the insignia as is.

Gray tapes seem equally ridiculous to me, but how about OD or Dark Blue with medium gray letters rather than white. That could look good & would go with white or silver thread badges.

[MIKE]

We adopted BBDUs just like the CG, and it's tapes you're worried about making us look too much like them? We don't have to look different than the CG by the way (feel free to look at the CG Aux tapes above as well), just the AF, and I think some of that is self imposed.

I hear that the ripstop tapes are supposed to be better on ODUs than the web ones. The USCG AUXILIARY tapes shouldn't have periods though per the AUXMAN... and if you buy 'em from the USCG UDC they won't. The Velcro backed tapes are authorized.

Personally I don't like BBDUs at all & think the blouse should be cut in favor of wearing the white aviator shirt with the lower half of BBDUs.

Ewww... No.  Field Uniform trousers and a blue golf shirt similar to the USCG Aux one would be nice though.  I like ODUs better than the Field Unifrom... Never looks as good as issue BDUs, can't find a blue BDU cap that is the same as my issue one.

[Eclipse]

What do people think when they see this? SDFs are even less in the military than CAP, if that's possible, yet they wear BDUs w/ these..

...and because they aren't beholden to any higher authority, they can do whatever they want, just like military schools, and the like.

Heck, here in IL we have an org called IMERT, they just decided one day that they should wear military-style grade, and appointed each other.

However tenuous the threads may be, I do take pride in the fact that we ARE beholden for much of our operations to the USAF, and no one has come up with a good idea to present to THEM, especially in light of the fact that our activities of late have suggested we'd be happier without them (not me).

[RiverAux]

What do people think when they see this? SDFs are even less in the military than CAP,

Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong.  State Defense Forces are units of the organized militia of the state in which they exist.  They are real military units and depending on the state, some are fairly well integrated with their National Guard.  In fact, the TX State Guard has an Air Wing whose purpose is to augment TX Air National Guard units. 

[Major Carrales]

What do people think when they see this? SDFs are even less in the military than CAP,

Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong.  State Defense Forces are units of the organized militia of the state in which they exist.  They are real military units and depending on the state, some are fairly well integrated with their National Guard.  In fact, the TX State Guard has an Air Wing whose purpose is to augment TX Air National Guard units. 

Yes, if we look back into the arcane past of the US and take the concept of "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" to its original meaning (as back to the Articles of Confederation) each state has soverigenty to estalish a militia.  This is reinforced in the US Constitution's 2nd Amendment in the Bill or Rights...the "well regulated militia."  As well as in the 10th Amendment.

They, State Defenders, are a "different animal" than CAP.

And...

Really, not this again!  So much time and energy is wasted trying to design or redesign things en re uniforms.  Why not have pride in what you are? In what we are?

I like Grey Shoulder Marks, I like the Ultra-Marine Nametapes.  And I will continue to like them until they are made otherwise.  I will not entertain such a fruitless effort as to design, debate or destroy e-friendships on CAPTALK because of "pipe dreams"as has been done in the PORTAL.

Now... I will say this. (There is merit in the efforts DNALL presents via his photoshop skills)  If one REALLY wants such things to happen, submit them officially.  Posting them here will really accomplish little more than argument.  The proof was at the Portal.

Just a suggestion.

[DNall]

SDFs are indeed in a parent-child relationship to their state's national guard in the same way CAP is to the AF, and thier uniforms are approved by the state Adjutant General (TAG), by the National Guard Bureau, AND by the Army or AF. I would argue that they in fact are very much like CAP in too many ways to count. In fact I think CAP should look to that model, which is in turn modeled on the National guard, as a guide for how to stregthen & expand our role with the AF.

Maj C,
Respectfully, I take a very dif view of the subject. When you submit uniform proposals to the official change, it makes sense that you formulate & discuss them with other members first. I mean what's the point of proposing something that no one else in CAP supports. Further, many Wgs refuse to take memebr proposals on national uniform changes. I actually don't know of a case in which a Sq level member has proposed anything up the chain that has even been considered, much less adopted. On the other hand, some of the things we talked about on the Portal created buzz in certain circles & are being considered. You do see I hope that a proposal sent up the chain with no prep work is very likely to be shot down, but one that the board has already heard about & even been semi-sold on before the ormal stuff gets there, that one has a lot better chance of getting thru. If you don't care about uniforms then don't read the threads!!! Jus tlike anything in CAP, you're free not to volunteer your time to something you don't want to be a part of, but you shouldn't slam others that do. There's no reason to be frustrated or harm any friendship, because you don't have to take part in any conversation you don't want to. That seems perfectly fair & reasonable to me.

Something like the topic of this thread is not about making the actual change right now, it's about raising awareness to how the ball was dropped 20 years ago when the change over to BDUs came, and how we face exactly the same situation in the near future with ABUs coming & a short window where we'll be in dif uniforms than the AF & will have more freedom to clean up the appearance. That's an opportunity on the horizon that can help psychologically set the tone for how CAP will approach the relationship with the AF for the next 20 years & help set the bar for how we would like to be viewed by them & in turn what opportunities we might have for service in the future. Those things are important to me. You can call it overselling the case if you like, but that's exactly the same level on which real military unform boards think when they look at items.

[Major Carrales]

DNALL,

I really look forward you meeting with you some day.  My frustration from this comes from the fact the we spend so much time on these issues with little action.  That's all.

Some call us posers and pretenders, our response to them should be via HEADLINES about our capabilities...not bickering about wanting to look like the USAF.

When the time comes, the USAF will extend that to us.  I truely believe that.  Until they do that, our efforts en re uniform issues will make us look more like we are trying to usurp USAF power by proxy of their name.

Major Carrales

[NEBoom]

<snip>
Something like the topic of this thread is not about making the actual change right now, it's about raising awareness to how the ball was dropped 20 years ago when the change over to BDUs came, and how we face exactly the same situation in the near future with ABUs coming & a short window where we'll be in dif uniforms than the AF & will have more freedom to clean up the appearance.

A minor nitpick here, but I keep seeing you all say that our nametapes were like the AF's until we switched to BDUs.  This isn't true.  The AF switched from the blue nametapes to subdued ones years before BDUs came along.  My understanding is that CAP stuck with the blue tapes because they had no need for reduced visibility (I hate to say "camouflage", because the old OD fatagues were hardly camouflage...).  When the BDUs came along the AF stuck with their subdued tapes, and CAP stuck with their blue ones.  I don't remember there being any debate about it at the time.

FWIW, I wouldn't mind a switch to a darker blue to match, or at least get closer to the shade of the BBDUs.  That would still look OK with the BDUs (woodland) and the new uniform when it comes.  Switching to another type of tape, anything subdued or cammo pattern, just isn't going to happen, so better not to beat your head against that wall.  IMHO, YMMV, E PLURBUS UNUM, ETC.

[DNall]

I always learned in business you dress for the job you want, not the one you have. The guy at work in a suit when he's only required to wear a collared shirt is going to stand out from the pack, & the boss is psychologically going to think of him as fitting in better at the level he's appears to be, & that helps win promotions. It's a really famous rule actually, I forget the book it originally comes from, but you'd know the title if you heard it.

In this case, I think the AF (officially & at the individual level) views us as not really part of their club. Some of that is based on reality, & some on perception. We weren't given these blue tapes to seperate us from the AF, we just never proposed anything to them that made sense. I believe the dramatic differences in our uniforms just draw attention to & emphasize the seperation between us, when instead they should be a foundation for all the things we have in common, including the mission & being on the same team to accomplish it. What I'd like to do is use the opportunities we have to dress for success, or more specifically, to make our uniforms reflect a stronger connection with the AF & what we want the realtionship to become in the future. Think of it as lighting a fuze that leads to better integration & partnership. It's subdtle, but an important step we have the power to take.

As to waiting for the AF, I don't know if you're aware of this, but the AF isn't allowed by congress to tell CAP what to do. They are only granted extremely limited authority over very narrow aspects of CAP & really aren't allowed to even make suggestions that step outside those bounds. You'd think uniforms are in their control since they have approval authority, but in fact they aren't. For instance, with the new corporate service coat they ordered some changes be made, they were free to tell us what wasn't allowed, but they were not allowed to tell us what they'd like to see in its place. CAP has to make proposals with supporting documentation & the AF has to accept or reject them as written, and generally cannot provide much more guidance then that.

I do understand the AF tapes changed shortly before BDUs came along, and that CAP did not then or now need reduced visability - nor frankly does the AF or you might see a few less reflective belts. I also understand why there wouldn't be an issue about it at the time, becuase it was recent history & the blue tapes were still in the collective mindset as affiliated with the AF. That's not the case now that time has passed & most people in the AF, not to mention CAP or the general public, don't know that the AF ever had blue/white tapes on green fatigues. As such, it becomes a psychological barrier. As I said, I think the dark blue tapes are the way to go & should be very easily adopted. I'd put them in with the white on DO as well & let the AF decide for themselves, but that's just me. The white on OD tapes certainly look more professional & I'd prefer to see them go to the AF as part of a larger package (along with Blue or Black grade slides for blues/aviator) under the heading of things the AF should consider approving in teh future when they believe CAP has earned them in terms of our quality relative to AF personnel.