Why does the Hock get a pass?

[Eclipse]

How is it that vendors making things which are questionably a violation of copyright (i.e. nametapes - NHQ doesn't actually own the words civil, air, or patrol, etc.) are getting desist letters, but the Hock, which has gone to pac-rim vendors and had a bunch of stuff done 3rd-party, most of it clearly inferior, wrong colors, etc., is able to continue to operate?

There is no question that much of what the Hock does is way over the line, we're not talking nametapes, we're talking actual insignia, logos, etc.

[Psicorp]

For the same reason that while gambling is illegal in Alabama, one individual is allowed to own and operate a greyhound dog track and simulcast sports betting.   It's all in who you are and who you know.

[Pylon]

Cease and desist letters are not authoritative, binding, nor do they carry any direct penalty for just stuffing them into the round file.  It's a really heavy-handed, suggestive request that the person stop doing whatever it is NHQ would prefer they not.

Most people comply because they'd rather not deal with lawyers and a potential lawsuit.  If NHQ wanted to, they could file a lawsuit against the vendor.  Would they, if someone ignored their C&D letter?  Who knows.   It takes time, money, and resources to sue a vendor even if CAP is clearly in the right.

Nobody would really know if any particular vendor has actually received a C&D letter and ignored it.  We just know of the ones who abruptly stopped selling quality merchandise to CAP members at reasonable prices because of them.

[BillB]

except for tape insignia, the majority of insignia that The Hock sells is purched from <gasp> Vanguard. Previosuly Tom bought the metal insignia from the Bookstore.

[Eclipse]

except for tape insignia, the majority of insignia that The Hock sells is purched from <gasp> Vanguard. Previosuly Tom bought the metal insignia from the Bookstore.

Incorrect - he has much of it made by his own venders in the pacific rim. I have confirmed this with him via conversation, as has my legal officer. He told us that when things were getting hard to buy from the depot years ago, he just started shipping things overseas, and he was taken aback that anyone would care. 

Which is why in many cases (ILWG wing patches for example) the colors are wrong, and the quality of the ribbons is so poor. There are other related threads on this board where people have said that when you call him on quality issues, he will refund your money, but will not comment.

If you look closely at even the catalog photos you will see small inconsistencies in various insignia.

It also makes absolutely no sense that Vanguard would supply a competitor. If they were supplying at the same cost, then his prices would have to be substantially higher, and why on earth would they supply him at lower prices.

And then there is also the fact that they are physically different products.

Even >if< he was authorized, it makes no sense that he is, but I can’t find anyone who is willing to explain how this is allowed to continue. 


For the record, I have no issue with anyone swimming in the pool of capitalism, but what he is selling in many cases is simply not correct, which I >do< have a problem with.  Being from one of the states where he got it wrong, I routinely see my members in formation with bad uniform parts, and yes, it’s a big deal, he’s not giving this stuff away.

[fyrfitrmedic]

I haven't had any problems yet with orders from the Hock, and I've been buying from them since back in the days when Tom made the rounds of some wing conference when bookstore wasn't making such trips.

Perhaps it's what I've bought over the years, but I've personally yet to run into any quality issues over a fairly wide variety of purchases.

What's the real purpose of this thread, to raise the noise level high enough to buy the Hock a C&D? If so, that's dirty pool to put it politely.

[DNall]

What's the real purpose of this thread, to raise the noise level high enough to buy the Hock a C&D? If so, that's dirty pool to put it politely.

That was my first thought as well. I've certainly seen quality issues since I came back to CAP, and I don't know where they all come from, but I'm not happy about it & I do make people (in my unit) replace items in a reasonable time when I can. What I can see an idustrious person doing is ordering wholesale from Vanguard, which I believe is the case here, and also unofficially running one's own embroidery shop to supplement the items officially purchased for resale. I don't know how authoritatively I can speak to quality control issues on this one, or how broad the issue may be with this one supplier.

[Eclipse]

What's the real purpose of this thread, to raise the noise level high enough to buy the Hock a C&D? If so, that's dirty pool to put it politely.

Yes.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, at a minimum I would like to know why he is getting a pass.

Lately, he's no better in shipping than VG, whatever, as I said, good on him in terms of capitalism.

But is pure, 100% BS that companies who are serving our members >and< not violating copyrights, are getting lawyer letters and making it harder for us.

Its all or nothing folks...

[fyrfitrmedic]

What's the real purpose of this thread, to raise the noise level high enough to buy the Hock a C&D? If so, that's dirty pool to put it politely.

Yes.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, at a minimum I would like to know why he is getting a pass.

Lately, he's no better in shipping than VG, whatever, as I said, good on him in terms of capitalism.

But is pure, 100% BS that companies who are serving our members >and< not violating copyrights, are getting lawyer letters and making it harder for us.

Its all or nothing folks...

... and this is the only reason, right?

The selling of merchandise related to the eeevil HMRS doesn't have anything to do with your new campaign to shut down the Hock?

Just making sure.

[Eclipse]

... and this is the only reason, right?

The selling of merchandise related to the eeevil HMRS doesn't have anything to do with your new campaign to shut down the Hock?

Just making sure.

Please.  I'm 42, not 12 - I do not have a knee-jerk hatred of PAWG, any issues I have are based on factual, operational problems.

With that said, until this very moment, I had no idea they sold anything from HMRS, I literally couldn't care less.

[JaL5597]

What's the real purpose of this thread, to raise the noise level high enough to buy the Hock a C&D? If so, that's dirty pool to put it politely.

Yes.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, at a minimum I would like to know why he is getting a pass.

Lately, he's no better in shipping than VG, whatever, as I said, good on him in terms of capitalism.

But is pure, 100% BS that companies who are serving our members >and< not violating copyrights, are getting lawyer letters and making it harder for us.

Its all or nothing folks...

I am soo glad to hear that A) You have been appointed to keeper of the standards for the rest of us and B) Your squadron is running soo well that you have the time to spend on trying to cause trouble for fellow members.



Yeah okay you may be middle aged but crap like this is rather childish, I am sorry.  You have in the past complained about the Hock Shop and told everyone a number of times about how you only want your members to buy stuff from Vanguard.  How about the rest of us who would rather be able to buy from a member who knows about his product and have little to no dealings with Vanguard.

If you have specific questions about something like that why are you not using the chain of command to forward the question up to NHQ?  After all isn't that what we are supposed to do?  Atleast thats what I have been taught over the last 10 years in the program.   

[Eclipse]

If you have specific questions about something like that why are you not using the chain of command to forward the question up to NHQ?

You're kidding right?

These boards would cease to exist without discussions like these.

It has been addressed there, and we couldn't get a straight answer, which was not unexpected, especially with something like this which is probably steeped in history, politics, and hurt feelings.

Let me be clear, so that it may be referenced throughout the ages:

1) I don't care where people buy their CAP stuff. What I care about is that it is correct, not over-priced, and available in a reasonable amount of time.  Something which CAPMArt, Vanguard, and The Hock seem to be challenged on, but AAFES, 1800NAMETAPES, and even my local surplus store seem to have no problem accomplishing.

2) Either Vanguard is THE source, and NHQ C&D's everybody, >or< they knock it off and leave EVERYBODY alone.
I would prefer the latter.  It seems as though the rest of the DOD, where people are PAID to participate AND are provided uniforms or get allowances toward the purchase of same, are not threatened by the thousands of alternative sources for uniforms and insignia, but CAP, staffed by unpaid volunteers, believes it necessary to make things even more difficult to serve by limiting the vendors and thus artificially raising the prices.

3) These boards are as much for free-form visibility to NHQ and others in authority as expecting an answer from the members.

[fyrfitrmedic]

... and this is the only reason, right?

The selling of merchandise related to the eeevil HMRS doesn't have anything to do with your new campaign to shut down the Hock?

Just making sure.

Please.  I'm 42, not 12 - I do not have a knee-jerk hatred of PAWG, any issues I have are based on factual, operational problems.

With that said, until this very moment, I had no idea they sold anything from HMRS, I literally couldn't care less.

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

I'm kinda curious myself as to who appointed you the supreme arbiter of vendor issues.

[Eclipse]

I took a vote, amongst myself. It was unanimous.  I won by a landslide.

[pixelwonk]

... and this is the only reason, right?

The selling of merchandise related to the eeevil HMRS doesn't have anything to do with your new campaign to shut down the Hock?

Just making sure.

Geez, We like ya 'n all fyrfitrmedic, but you're gettin to be the Al Sharpton of HMRS, man.
Let it go.  Nobody started anything about HM.

[fyrfitrmedic]

... and this is the only reason, right?

The selling of merchandise related to the eeevil HMRS doesn't have anything to do with your new campaign to shut down the Hock?

Just making sure.

Geez, We like ya 'n all fyrfitrmedic, but you're gettin to be the Al Sharpton of HMRS, man.
Let it go.  Nobody started anything about HM.

It was an attempt at sarcasm which obviously parsed in a less-than-optimal manner. 

[DNall]

Simmer down now... I think if anything the buzz on the ground is pissed off at high quality vendors being knocked off. I agree with the proposal that NHQ should set specs for items & should be free to charge a small licensing fee for vendors to state an item meets those specs, only items in spec are legal for uniform wear. If there is an official vendor, it should be there as a co-op type effort to provide items in a centralized spot at discount prices. I think the folks up top lost sight of the purpose behind the pre-Vanguard days, & lost touch with membership in allowing a situation like we have now. Certainly the hock should be held to the same standard everyone else is, but that standard SHOULD be inclusionary rather than exclusionary. Just cause there's a policy doesn't mean it's right.

[Major_Chuck]

It doesn't seem American not to have choices when it comes to who we purchase our uniform items from.  NHQ and TP need to heed the advice given here and find a way to officially license our uniform doodads. 

Competition is good.  Limiting our choice to Vanguard is bad.

[mikeylikey]

VANGUARD is ripping us off.  Go to a Military Clothing Sales Store on any base, post or installation and the Vanguard items for sale by AAFES are significantly cheaper than those same items sold to CAP on line.  Even without the tax figured, they are still cheaper.  I went to an Air Force base and bought Vanguard items, then sold those items next to the Vanguard vendor at my Wing Conference.  Guess what?  My prices were cheaper than hers, and she made NO profit off CAP that day.  I successfully embarrassed her, and continue to purchase items for members in my wing that do not live close to an MCSS. 

We need to be able to purchase uniform items from any vendor we wish.  This is not Communist Russia.  The US military, even allows members to seek out uniform parts and accessories as long as they are within established colors, patterns, textures and form.  ONCE AGAIN, Corporate CAP is only concerned about $$. 

If CAP only wants us to purchase from Vanguard, then they need to get ALL "non-licensed" suppliers to stop selling, not just the profitable ones. 

This is ridiculous!

[ELTHunter]

VANGUARD is ripping us off.  Go to a Military Clothing Sales Store on any base, post or installation and the Vanguard items for sale by AAFES are significantly cheaper than those same items sold to CAP on line.  Even without the tax figured, they are still cheaper. 

Somebody tell me if I'm wrong, but I have always been under the impression that AAFES was subsidized by the government, which would explain why things from Vanguard are still cheaper.  That is also why CAP can only buy selected items from them.  The DOD doesn't want to subsidize sales to non-military personnel.  Which is another pet peeve of mine.  Since we do spend a lot of our own money and are completely volunteers supporting the AF mission, why not let CAP members have full AAFES privileges.  I think technically, going by the regs, we can only buy uniform items.  So, that Camelback that they might have cheaper, we really are not eligible to purchase.  Now that's never been a problem at the AFNGB AAFES I go to,  but It could be if they cared to push it.