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Gortex Grade Slide

Started by Becks, November 29, 2006, 05:17:43 AM

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Becks

Does anyone know when Vanguard is supposed start producing these for CAP?

BBATW

DNall

I imagine sometime after the policy letter says they're officially authorized. Right now it's just a very official rumor. Like most new things though, it won't show up on the website, you'll have to phone it in.

Becks

2 minute response time on my question, now thats what I call speedy :)

BBATW

DNall

NP, No mexican hat dances though, you gotta provide your own floor show.  ;D

Pace

Hate to say it, but I doubt we're going to see many more policy letters under TP's reign.  He's moved to non-memo format informative emails.  We'll have to start saving emails like we did policy letters until the regs are revised and the email is hopefully remembered.

*praying I'm wrong and we start to see policy letters again*
Lt Col, CAP

DNall

well, a policy letter is a legally filed change to regs, issued either in an emergency or in compliance with the wishes of the NB (but still going to req another vote from them to congirm). And a policy letter is posted w/ regs as a change. Emails, while informative, are meaningless.

Pace

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out the direction I think we're going for now.  Again, I really don't want to be right this time.
Lt Col, CAP

Pylon

Quote from: Becks on November 29, 2006, 05:17:43 AM
Does anyone know when Vanguard is supposed start producing these for CAP?

I sent an email to Vanguard to find out when they project being able to carry the item.  The response a day later indicated that they have no current timetable nor projected date that they will be carrying these.  (in other words:  "Huh, what rank slides?  Uhm... no... we don't have those....")
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Hawk200

Quote from: Pylon on November 29, 2006, 05:24:36 PMThe response a day later indicated that they have no current timetable nor projected date that they will be carrying these.  (in other words:  "Huh, what rank slides?  Uhm... no... we don't have those....")

You get that when they actually have what you're looking for. I went through four different idiots at Vanguard while looking for a state ribbon. The fifth person sent me a photo of the ribbon I wanted, and asked me if it was the right one.

Pace

Quote from: Pylon on November 29, 2006, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: Becks on November 29, 2006, 05:17:43 AM
Does anyone know when Vanguard is supposed start producing these for CAP?

I sent an email to Vanguard to find out when they project being able to carry the item.  The response a day later indicated that they have no current timetable nor projected date that they will be carrying these.  (in other words:  "Huh, what rank slides?  Uhm... no... we don't have those....")
There's one guy that is the all-knowing supply guru for CAP items at Vanguard.  You need to ask to talk to him.  If I knew his name, I'd PM it to you.  The NCUC had been in stock for a month and the workers at vanguard (except for this one guy) didn't know they had it.
Lt Col, CAP

DNall

Wouldn't it just be easier if they have an account rep that dealt with all teh CAP orders, and God forbid a Quality Control guy to make sure the orders are right before they go out.

O-Rex

Patience, my friends. 

It's quite conceivable that changes in uniforms are occurring faster than Vanguard's ability (or de$ire) to keep up with it.

Remember that NB proceedings are public info, and there is a lag between decision and implementation: new gee-gaws must be spec'd and produced.

There are also CAP members who haven't heard about the changes: I anticipated the rank-on-the-hat (inside info) and had one prepared and tucked away until the news broke.  I was the first on my block to have one, and since then I've received more than a few 'on-the-spot corrections' from the unenlightened (Policy letters do come in handy to placate the "39-1 Nazis") 

Nonetheless, these latest changes are much welcome.  I guess since the debut of the ABU for USAF is just around the corner, the Air Force is loosening up a bit (what the heck: before long the BDU will virtually become a CAP-distinctive uniform in itself.)

Letting the dust settle on all the changes will give us a chance to collect enough loose change to be able to buy all the new costumes and accouterments.  Gore-Tex Jackets aren't cheap.

DNall

"de$ire"  :D And we should all be 39-1 nazis my friend, to a degree anyway. You wouldn't need to be that on top of it w/ peers in the military, but then that's the thing is you wouldn't NEED to be, a lot of people in CAP have a long way to go & get offended a little to easy at the thought of someone coaching them on how to dress.

Anyway, the goretex, grade on hat, bule/white grade on flt suits, & a couple other things were approved by NB a long time ago. They've been recycled w/ AF in the meantime. If you recall the uniform policy discussion at this last NB meeting, they discussed each of those items & Col Hodgkins reported all were in the AF chain & he'd check to see what the status was. So basically, these items have been approved by AF & NB, but haven't been published as authorized yet. If they have someone please let me know where to find that.

QuoteI guess since the debut of the ABU for USAF is just around the corner, the Air Force is loosening up a bit (what the heck: before long the BDU will virtually become a CAP-distinctive uniform in itself.)
I've mentioned this before. It's a foregone conclusion that we will indeed go to ABUs AFTER the final date for AF, which is 2009 last I hard, and we won't be STARTING into them till two years after that, and that's just a historical reference, it's really based on when servicable BDUs become scarce in surplus & when quantity of ABUs makes it reasonable to switch... all that will be an AF call. HOWEVER, in the meantime they will all be in ABUs & we will be in BDUs, so yes I think they will lighten up quite a bit, and that means room for us to fo things like dark blue over glow in the dark blue, or maybe even white on OD badges... stuff like that. THEN when we do switch to ABUs we should be able to carry those changes with us. You understand that's why we have the blue tapes now right? We & the AF had the SAME tapes as the AF (of course ours said Civil Air Patrol) when we were all in green fatigues. When we switched to BDUs they said no subdued tapes, no one ever attempted to get white on OD tapes or any other color (like dark blue) & we just kept what we had. Anyway, opportunity presenting itself right there, I hope it's taken advantage of rather than wait another 20 years looking silly.

By the way on the Goretex, check the link under marketplace you'll see them at $30 apparently confirmed as AF issue, & they have a return policy if you don't like it. I'm gonna grab one & see, let ya know how it is.

O-Rex

We won't need ABU's for a while: there really is not much difference in functionality anyway.  And if you want to be the first on your block with the lastest fashions, its not going to be cheap.

Expect to see shortages in new BDU's sooner than later:  BDU production has fallen off in the last few years due to the demand in DCU's (for obvious reasons.)  There have been shortages in certain sizes of items at MCSS stores for a while now.  Phase-in of the ABU will provide a windfall of DRMO/surplus for cadets, though.

Even DCU's are going away just as quickly, which could present another DRMO/Surplus opportunity, if CAP and USAF should so decide to authorize them sometime in the future (and who's to say they won't? Given recent events, anything is possible.)  They did the same thing in the 1980's when they were trying to deplete stocks of Vietnam-Era Jungle fatigues.

Even black combat boots are getting cheaper: you can get Bates or Belleville ICB's new-in-the-box on E-bay for as low as 40 bucks.  When they choose to adopt the ABU, I think they should keep the black boots as a "CAP-distinctive" item for a while longer.  There is sure to be an ample supply for years to come.

ECWCS gear: The ECWCS parka debuted over 20 years ago, so it was high-time that we got to wear them.  Not long ago, you couldn't get them for under a hundred, not even used ones.  Now they go for about $30.

b/t/w, with the adoption of all the new pixelated uniforms for each of the services, do any of them use the M-65 field jacket anymore?

MIKE

Quote from: O-Rex on November 30, 2006, 05:15:33 PM
b/t/w, with the adoption of all the new pixelated uniforms for each of the services, do any of them use the M-65 field jacket anymore?

I believe most are switching to Gore-tex or a new non-Gore-tex coat in the appropriate pattern.  I know the Army has one in development that is similar in construction to the ACUs themselves... Which will replace the M-65.
Mike Johnston

Hawk200

Quote from: MIKE on November 30, 2006, 07:00:06 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on November 30, 2006, 05:15:33 PM
b/t/w, with the adoption of all the new pixelated uniforms for each of the services, do any of them use the M-65 field jacket anymore?

I believe most are switching to Gore-tex or a new non-Gore-tex coat in the appropriate pattern.  I know the Army has one in development that is similar in construction to the ACUs themselves... Which will replace the M-65.

There was an article in the Army Times about the new cold weather gear. The Army is going to field a seven layer system for cold/wet weather wear. Some pretty nice stuff actually with underlayers, soft and hard shell outers, and one layer designed only for the coldest of environments. Probably be a few years before the Air Force adopts anything similar. The Army may have an oddball camo, but some of the accessories are nice.

There is some info here: http://www.natick.army.mil/about/pao/2004/04-17.htm

Apparently Polartec is producing a few of the items, info from them: http://www.polartec.com/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1285

All in all, seems to be pretty good stuff.

DNall

Quote from: Hawk200 on November 30, 2006, 07:47:14 PMProbably be a few years before the Air Force adopts anything similar. The Army may have an oddball camo, but some of the accessories are nice.
I don't really care what they switch to, just so it isn't pink (or blueberry), I just think it's stupid the military is going to spend billions to have everyone is distinctive camo pattern utility uniforms. You know Truman made his name in Congress during WWII by forcing efficiency in the military, one of the key items being standardization of a lot of common uniform items. I really have a feeling this trend is going to be shorter than BDUs & then we'll be back to a dregree of standadization again. Hell, if I were the AF, I'd cancel ABUs right now & adopt ACUs just for the savings involved for both services.

There is ZERO chance CAP will be auth DCUs EVER regardless of supply. The military resricts domestic wear of thsoe by their own people pretty heavily, plus do you know what those things are like after they get back from theater? We already play in the maybe/maybe not servicable range of BDUs, you don't want to see where that range is w/ DCUs.

Far as what CAP does or does not wear. That should be hard linked to what the AF is issuing, and have authorized initial wear dates around the mandatory wear date for the AF (incl Guard/Res), and have CAP mandatory into it a couple years later... so in this case, 2009-2011.

ELTHunter

#17
Quote from: DNall on December 01, 2006, 04:08:24 AM
I just think it's stupid the military is going to spend billions to have everyone is distinctive camo pattern utility uniforms. You know Truman made his name in Congress during WWII by forcing efficiency in the military, one of the key items being standardization of a lot of common uniform items. I really have a feeling this trend is going to be shorter than BDUs & then we'll be back to a dregree of standadization again. Hell, if I were the AF, I'd cancel ABUs right now & adopt ACUs just for the savings involved for both services.

I couldn't agree more.  I am surprised they were allowed to go their separate ways without someone pointing that out.  Especially in light of the current, and probably future, budget constraints on everything that isn't directly connected to war fighting.

Fixed quote tags - MIKE
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

DNall

Even some of the same kind of stuff on the warfigting side is incredibly stupid, but don't get me started. I'm curious what kind of changes will trickle down from Dr Gates. I think it'll be a good thing one way or another.

O-Rex

#19
Getting back to the subject-at-hand, [[company name redacted]] is interested in poducing the slides (a few CAP Members have already approached them)  They already make Army Gore-Tex Rank slides.  They asked if anyone had any idea of the measurements. 

I just figured standard embroidered rank and CAP cutouts, with 1/2 inch spacing between the rank and the cutouts, no??

I don't imagine that there is anything prorietary on the CAP Rank Slides (?)


Admin edit: Company name removed for their protection; sorry. They are one of the few that NHQ has not yet served with a C&D letter. PM author of post for name. --MK

Eclipse

If they can C&D a place making nametapes, they'll C&D them too. :-[

"That Others May Zoom"

Pylon

Quote from: O-Rex on December 04, 2006, 03:50:18 AM
Getting back to the subject-at-hand, [[company name redacted]] is interested in poducing the slides (a few CAP Members have already approached them)  They already make Army Gore-Tex Rank slides.  They asked if anyone had any idea of the measurements. 

I just figured standard embroidered rank and CAP cutouts, with 1/2 inch spacing between the rank and the cutouts, no??

I don't imagine that there is anything prorietary on the CAP Rank Slides (?)

Admin edit: Company name removed for their protection; sorry. They are one of the few that NHQ has not yet served with a C&D letter. PM author of post for name. --MK

I approached them a while back about doing it as well... even sent them a photoshopped mock-up I made of a CAP grade slide for the Goretex.  They said they can do it, but then never really got back to me.

I would think the measurements would be the same since it has to fit on the standard Goretex tab.  Plus, CAP doesn't specify measurements of other items, like shouldermarks.  If you can get them to produce, I'll buy a handful and I know others who would be interested, too.

But P.S.: I removed the company's name from your post - sorry.  I rarely do anything like that, but this is one of the few companies that NHQ's lawyers have not yet shut down.  They are high quality, produce all their products here in the U.S., and kick both Vanguard and Hock's prices and shipping fees out of the water.  And they're accurate and fast.  Whether people believe it or not, people from National do browse these and other forums -- I'd hate to  have them served a C&D letter for their current line of nametapes because of our discussion here. 
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

afgeo4

If this company's name begins with 1800 then they're already shut down.
GEORGE LURYE

Pylon

Quote from: afgeo4 on December 04, 2006, 07:20:11 AM
If this company's name begins with 1800 then they're already shut down.

It doesn't.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

O-Rex

Pylon: about removing the info from the post, no problem: should have thought it through :-\

1-800 nametapes C&D order came about a few years back, even before CAPMART: they offered some high-quality CAP merchandise, including some great ballcaps and a few gee-gaws that the (then) Bookstore hadn't thought of.  They still offer white-on-ultramarine-blue nametapes, they just don't advertise them as 'Civil Air Patrol nametapes.'  Nobody has exclusive rights to a color. . .

I was a patron of the company in question in my Army days 20 years ago.  back then, the did all kinds of alterations and tailoring.  Now they do only embroidery work. 

There are some companies out there that do some really great flightsuit nametage, but apparently they have to go "underground" too.


Hawk200

Quote from: dcpacemaker on November 29, 2006, 05:39:29 PM
There's one guy that is the all-knowing supply guru for CAP items at Vanguard.  You need to ask to talk to him.  If I knew his name, I'd PM it to you.  The NCUC had been in stock for a month and the workers at vanguard (except for this one guy) didn't know they had it.

Does anyone know this guys name? May make an order in a few days, and don't feel like talking to the brainless ones. PM would be appreciated if you don't want to post in the clear.

O-Rex

They had a guy from Vangard at my Wingconf, can't remember his name for the life of me, but he was really up on what was going on: wasn't just a warm body . . .

as for they "mystery supplier" of Gore-tex rank, I gave him the "reader's digest of our discussions.  this was his reply:

There are no doubt certifications that need to be looked into before I would ever get into any mass production, this is the same with all the services, we'll get to that later. 

    Thanks for the heads up,

Hawk200

Quote from: Hawk200 on November 30, 2006, 07:47:14 PM
Quote from: MIKE on November 30, 2006, 07:00:06 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on November 30, 2006, 05:15:33 PM
b/t/w, with the adoption of all the new pixelated uniforms for each of the services, do any of them use the M-65 field jacket anymore?

I believe most are switching to Gore-tex or a new non-Gore-tex coat in the appropriate pattern.  I know the Army has one in development that is similar in construction to the ACUs themselves... Which will replace the M-65.

There was an article in the Army Times about the new cold weather gear. The Army is going to field a seven layer system for cold/wet weather wear. Some pretty nice stuff actually with underlayers, soft and hard shell outers, and one layer designed only for the coldest of environments. Probably be a few years before the Air Force adopts anything similar. The Army may have an oddball camo, but some of the accessories are nice.

There is some info here: http://www.natick.army.mil/about/pao/2004/04-17.htm

Apparently Polartec is producing a few of the items, info from them: http://www.polartec.com/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1285

All in all, seems to be pretty good stuff.

Going back to this older post, I found some other info if anyone is really curious about what the Army is getting. This is a pretty good link here: https://www.peosoldier.army.mil/pmequipment/ciemultimedia.asp

Scroll down about a third of the page, and it shows the various layers of the Army's new cold weather gear.

afgeo4

The USAF will be using the Marine Corps cold weather clothing done in ABU pattern.
GEORGE LURYE

Hawk200

Quote from: afgeo4 on December 14, 2006, 06:14:28 PM
The USAF will be using the Marine Corps cold weather clothing done in ABU pattern.

I haven't seen that one yet. Got any links? I'm a bit of a gear hound at times. Not that I would ever be able to afford all the nice cool stuff that I would like to have...

mikeylikey

The new ACU cold weather issue is so much better than the Marines version.  The Marine version had huge fielding problems due to quality and fit, and there are so many complaints about it. 
What's up monkeys?



MIKE

The calf pockets on the trousers seem next to useless.  I like them on the sleeves like the APEC. Just looks cool... Have to do something about the huge sleeve stripes then though.

The APEC is similar to the Gen. II ECWCS parka.  The offset rank tab makes it look a lot like the coat the Navy was developing for TFU.

Mike Johnston

lordmonar

Quote from: MIKE on December 20, 2006, 05:33:12 PM
The calf pockets on the trousers seem next to useless. 

I don't know....I can think of several good applications for this pocket.  While sitting in a vehicle in full battle rattle....A calf pocket is just about the only thing you can reach.  I know when I fly I use mainly the calf pockets in my flight suit as being the most convenient.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

MIKE

Maybe if they were a little bigger?
Mike Johnston

Hawk200

Quote from: MIKE on December 20, 2006, 05:33:12 PM
The calf pockets on the trousers seem next to useless.  I like them on the sleeves like the APEC. Just looks cool... Have to do something about the huge sleeve stripes then though.

The APEC is similar to the Gen. II ECWCS parka.  The offset rank tab makes it look a lot like the coat the Navy was developing for TFU.

I've found it's a great place to put cut off tie wraps when sitting on top of a Blackhawk. Lot easier to just reach to your calf than having to stand up and go into the thigh pocket. And it actually works pretty well for a cell phone too.

...Or a can of adult candy.

lordmonar

Quote from: MIKE on December 20, 2006, 05:53:33 PM
Maybe if they were a little bigger?

Haven't seen them yet...so I can't comment.  But heck....we don't use all of our pockets as it is!  And some people out there keep telling the cadets you can't put anything in your pockets!

I had a C/SSgt bring me to task during a SAREX as I was loading up my BDUs with my gear...he honest thought that pockets were just for looks and we were forbidden to put anything in there!

I told him....just nothing bulky and once you get into the feild...what ever you can fit into it!
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

MIKE

Quote from: lordmonar on December 21, 2006, 09:50:31 AM
But heck....we don't use all of our pockets as it is!  And some people out there keep telling the cadets you can't put anything in your pockets!

I know.  ::)  They wouldn't make all kinds of special pockets if you weren't supposed to use 'em.
Mike Johnston

DNall

Now do keep the field & garrison concepts seperate here.  ;)

lordmonar

Quote from: DNall on December 23, 2006, 05:44:20 AM
Now do keep the field & garrison concepts separate here.  ;)

That is exactly my point.....first there is NO rule that says you cannot put things in your pockets in or out of garrison...only on the blues they should not be bulky, and only the tops of your pens and pencils can show in the bdu pocket....but some people out there in cadet land (and some of these people are SMs) take it way to far! 

Pockets are to hold things....any thing except your hands...that's what gloves are for!
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DNall

There's no RULE about the tops of pens or bulky items. That's a field standard you're adapting. Swing by a recruiter (or any AFB) on casual friday & tell me if he's packing more starch or BDU around the office. Obviously we're looking for a middle ground w/ cadets that don't have multiple sets for field & garrison, but they still need to look passable next to the other five guys w/ tack down flaps & razor creases.

The pockets were designed by people at a time when they thought they'd be useful in combat, which they aren't cause they get covered. In garrison you might can get away with using them, but that would be for thigns like climning around the top of a helicopter, not stuffing your hat in while you sit in front of a computer screen. You can't use the bues shirt or service coat pockets obvioustly. The shirt really should come with simulated pockets or at least pre-sewn/tacked. That's just the way it is. Civilians use lots of pockets, but military culture demands a little more sacrifice when possible.

shorning

Quote from: DNall on December 23, 2006, 08:12:18 AM
There's no RULE about the tops of pens or bulky items.

Come on!  RTFM!

QuoteTable 2-5. Clothing/Accessory Standards, Item 11, Pens and Pencils

Concealed. EXCEPTION:  When carried in pen/pencil compartment of BDU, utility or field uniform, flight suit or flight jacket

lordmonar

Quote from: DNall on December 23, 2006, 08:12:18 AM
There's no RULE about the tops of pens or bulky items. That's a field standard you're adapting. Swing by a recruiter (or any AFB) on casual Friday & tell me if he's packing more starch or BDU around the office. Obviously we're looking for a middle ground w/ cadets that don't have multiple sets for field & garrison, but they still need to look passable next to the other five guys w/ tack down flaps & razor creases.

The pockets were designed by people at a time when they thought they'd be useful in combat, which they aren't cause they get covered. In garrison you might can get away with using them, but that would be for things like climbing around the top of a helicopter, not stuffing your hat in while you sit in front of a computer screen. You can't use the blues shirt or service coat pockets obviously. The shirt really should come with simulated pockets or at least pre-sewn/tacked. That's just the way it is. Civilians use lots of pockets, but military culture demands a little more sacrifice when possible.

Why would I need to go see a recuirter...I wear the [darn] things 5 days a week and then I wear my CAP BDU every Tuesday!

Please Dnall...I use my pockets all the time. I use by pockets in the field and in combat....(have you been in combat?).

What I am complaining about is the myth that you can't put anything in your pockets at all!  That is a an utter our right asinine policy and I will attack it when ever I see it.

BTW...do USAF recruiters wear BDU's to the officer?  I thought that was a no-no for them.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

afgeo4

USAF MX people use pockets to hold tools. Everyone else uses pockets to hold things like glasses and bdu caps (those are the prescribed places to keep them). You'd be surprised at just how useful those "covered" pockets can be in combat actually.

Normally USAF recruiters don't wear BDUs. The duty uniform is blues. You can catch them in BDUs on days off, training days or field trip days, but that's pretty much it. It's more accepted for them to be seen in PFUs than BDUs.

Back to gore-tex slide topic...
GEORGE LURYE

lordmonar

Anyone have a source for the CAP grade slides yet?
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

afgeo4

www.civilairpatrolstore.com  in another few months or so and for $8 a pop plus $22 shipping and handling, right?
GEORGE LURYE

Hawk200

Quote from: afgeo4 on December 24, 2006, 07:50:27 AM
www.civilairpatrolstore.com  in another few months or so and for $8 a pop plus $22 shipping and handling, right?

I like that one. And probably a little too close to being accurate to be funny. Might be better off if we just laugh anyway, for the time being.

afgeo4

In defense of Vanguard, for $22 S&H, the package will arrive in triple bubble wrap (cloth slides), 20"X24" package via FedEx overnight super priority before 3am delivery with a note that says, "No one delivers this kind of service!"

Don't worry, your personalized coffee mug will still be delivered via USPS in a plain paper envelope and with someone else's name on it. Although they'll probably apologize profusely a month later and ship you the right one free of charge.
GEORGE LURYE

mikeylikey

Quote from: afgeo4 on December 26, 2006, 09:04:39 PM
In defense of Vanguard, for $22 S&H, the package will arrive in triple bubble wrap (cloth slides), 20"X24" package via FedEx overnight super priority before 3am delivery with a note that says, "No one delivers this kind of service!"

Don't worry, your personalized coffee mug will still be delivered via USPS in a plain paper envelope and with someone else's name on it. Although they'll probably apologize profusely a month later and ship you the right one free of charge.

I got that personalized coffee mug with someone elses name on it.  I drank out of it and then sent it back dirty!
What's up monkeys?

RiverAux

QuoteHate to say it, but I doubt we're going to see many more policy letters under TP's reign.  He's moved to non-memo format informative emails.  We'll have to start saving emails like we did policy letters until the regs are revised and the email is hopefully remembered.
dcpacemaker's prediction was proven wrong fairly quickly.  There have been 3 policy letters issued since he made it., and it hasn't yet been a month.

Pace

Quote from: RiverAux on December 27, 2006, 02:44:15 AM
QuoteHate to say it, but I doubt we're going to see many more policy letters under TP's reign.  He's moved to non-memo format informative emails.  We'll have to start saving emails like we did policy letters until the regs are revised and the email is hopefully remembered.
dcpacemaker's prediction was proven wrong fairly quickly.  There have been 3 policy letters issued since he made it., and it hasn't yet been a month.
I don't mind being wrong.  In fact, in this case I'm glad I was wrong.
Lt Col, CAP

afgeo4

Called Vanguard 3 days ago about this matter and was told it will be another month to month and half until the slides hit the shelves webpages.
GEORGE LURYE

Matt

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 14, 2007, 07:27:13 AM
Called Vanguard 3 days ago about this matter and was told it will be another month to month and half until the slides hit the shelves webpages.

Maybe if they HIT hard enough it might knock it to be a bit better.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

Smokey

I see.....slides for the gortex in time for spring and summer......makes sense to me. :)
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
To err is human, to blame someone else shows good management skills.

lordmonar

Quote from: Smokey on January 15, 2007, 11:14:26 PM
I see.....slides for the gortex in time for spring and summer......makes sense to me. :)

Come on Smokey...that's not fair.  USAF only just authorised this...in the beggining of winter.  It takes time for Vanguard to design, produce and package enough to be ready to go full on.  We are talking about 20K units each rank just to be sure you have coverage and can meet the demand that is going to hit you once you go live!

Its not like they had them sitting there waiting for USAF's approval to go live.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

LtCol White

I have to agree. I think folks are being a little too hard on Vanguard. They're not perfect but come on guys.

I have had no problems with any of my orders from them. When desiging and ordering custom patches from them, they were very responsive and helpful. Produced a high quality product that was ready in the time frame they quoted me.

Lighten up on them guys. Besides, its not likely that things are going to change. I rather doubt we will see a return to the old CAP Bookstore so it looks like Vanguard is here to stay.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

Hawk200

Quote from: LtCol White on January 16, 2007, 03:18:31 PMLighten up on them guys. Besides, its not likely that things are going to change. I rather doubt we will see a return to the old CAP Bookstore so it looks like Vanguard is here to stay.

There were definitely problems with the old Bookstore, but I think the nature of the Vanguard complaints involve the fact that they have a near monopoly on CAP insignia.

Their monopoly is similar to the problems there were with the old Ma Bell monopoly. "Don't like our service? Oh well, you can get someone else! Oh wait, there is noone else! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha...."

A monopoly can provide whatever level of service they choose, and you have no choice in the matter.

LtCol White

But that monopoly isn't Vanguard's fault. Exclusive rights to produce our insignia were granted to them and written in the contract by NHQ. So people should be mad at NHQ for creating that environment and not Vanguard.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

Hawk200

Quote from: LtCol White on January 16, 2007, 07:35:04 PM
But that monopoly isn't Vanguard's fault. Exclusive rights to produce our insignia were granted to them and written in the contract by NHQ. So people should be mad at NHQ for creating that environment and not Vanguard.

Good point. But overall, the membership itself doesn't have any control over that contract. So we still have the right to complain about substandard service from the sole source.

Vanguard needs to get their collect tails in gear and provide service of the same level we could expect from the other companies that were better than Vanguard. I don't care that they're bigger. And neither do a lot of other people that need items that they can't get in a timely manner.

LtCol White

Oh I agree with you. I'm not saying anyone doesnt have a right to be upset if they have rec'd lesser service. because of the exclusivity, Vanguard should be doing everything they can to fix whatever probs exist out there.
Personally, I have had nothing but good service from them.

You're correct, the membership had no control over the agreement. This is seldom the case when a corp makes agreements so it isnt unique to CAP. Normal in the Corp world.

But as I said, those who are unhappy with the exclusivity should express that to NHQ. Of course, it is a moot point due to legal/contractual obligations.

AAFES isnt perfect either. But, there are other sources out there for many items they carry.

LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

davedove

Quote from: LtCol White on January 16, 2007, 08:00:16 PM
Oh I agree with you. I'm not saying anyone doesnt have a right to be upset if they have rec'd lesser service. because of the exclusivity, Vanguard should be doing everything they can to fix whatever probs exist out there.
Personally, I have had nothing but good service from them.

Unfortunately, exclusivity tends to cause worse service, not better.  In a normal competitive environment, if the customers don't like your service they go elsewhere.  In an exclusive environment, if the customers don't like your service, to bad, they still have to come to you for more.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Hawk200

Quote from: LtCol White on January 16, 2007, 08:00:16 PM
Personally, I have had nothing but good service from them.

The service I received was slow. A week for them to process my payment, and three more days to ship it. I don't care for that level.

QuoteYou're correct, the membership had no control over the agreement. This is seldom the case when a corp makes agreements so it isnt unique to CAP. Normal in the Corp world.

Normal in the corporate world, but a little different for the military. And with the reuirement of CAP to wear a uniform, I don't think it's wrong to include us.

As for the agreement by National, there are some people that think that "exclusivity" may be illegal, or at least highly unethical. Suppression of free enterprise, a forced monopoly requiring CAP members to pay higher costs, lack of competition in a free market. Just a few of the opinions that I've heard.

I'm just waiting for a rich member to lawyer up, and bring a lawsuit. It wouldn't surpise me if they won. And if it went class action, the effects on CAP could be debilitating.

QuoteBut as I said, those who are unhappy with the exclusivity should express that to NHQ. Of course, it is a moot point due to legal/contractual obligations.

AAFES isnt perfect either. But, there are other sources out there for many items they carry.

Absolutely right on both counts. At least you can find insignia from other sources. I've done that when I was both active duty and Guard. AAFES quite often couldn't meet my timeline, so I got it someplace else. Neither you or I have that option when it comes to CAP.

LtCol White

Exactly. But it was NHQ that created that environment, not Vanguard. You can't blame any business for wanting to be the exclusive supplier.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

LtCol White

Well exclusive suppliers isnt illegal. When I worked in International Logistics for Coca-Cola, it was common practice that the company had exclusive suppliers for trade marked items. At Coke, anything using the logo or depicting the company name was a trademark. Even the shape of the 6 ounce bottle is trademarked. These are very common practices in the Corp world. CAP is a Corp and is free by law to have exclusive suppliers of any item that it has a trademark on. A uniform item with CAP or CIVIL AIR PATROL would fall under the same auspice. Likewise, any patch or device designed to be worn on CAP uniforms or any other item sold.

Like it or not, it is legal for them to do this.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

Hawk200

Quote from: davedove on January 16, 2007, 08:18:05 PM
Unfortunately, exclusivity tends to cause worse service, not better.  In a normal competitive environment, if the customers don't like your service they go elsewhere.  In an exclusive environment, if the customers don't like your service, to bad, they still have to come to you for more.

Unfortunately, that was Ma Bell's problem. Telephone service was deregulated partially because of poor service in a monopoly environment. I kinda wonder if that deregulation was less FCC, and more Federal Trade Commision. I don't honestly know, I know less about FTC to reach a reasonable conclusion.

If you have a monopoly, and all your customers are satisfied, you're probably going to be alright. If they aren't, someone will break up your monopoly. In the cases of telephone companies, technology allowed different options.

Hawk200

Quote from: LtCol White on January 16, 2007, 08:48:53 PM
Well exclusive suppliers isnt illegal. When I worked in International Logistics for Coca-Cola, it was common practice that the company had exclusive suppliers for trade marked items. At Coke, anything using the logo or depicting the company name was a trademark. Even the shape of the 6 ounce bottle is trademarked. These are very common practices in the Corp world. CAP is a Corp and is free by law to have exclusive suppliers of any item that it has a trademark on. A uniform item with CAP or CIVIL AIR PATROL would fall under the same auspice. Likewise, any patch or device designed to be worn on CAP uniforms or any other item sold.

Like it or not, it is legal for them to do this.

Even your own statement disputes your response. The key word is suppliers, not supplier.

And an exclusive bottle design is not the same as a Civil Air Patrol nametape. You don't suppress free enterise with a trademark on a bottle design. If you had an exclusive trademark on any  six ounce bottle that would be a completely different story. Doesn't compare.

Besides, anyone can make that trademarked six ounce bottle design. But the only people that you would be able to sell it to would be Coca Cola. It would be illegal to make sale to anyone else on a trademarked property. It's not a matter of who can produce it, it's a matter of who can use it.

For CAP to say that only members can use it their nametapes is one thing. To say that they can't be sold by anyone else is a different equation altogether.

SarDragon

A little info on the "trademark" issue.

CAP doesn't have a trademark, per se, on its items. What it does have is this:

TITLE 36 > Subtitle II > Part B > CHAPTER 403 > Sec. 40306.
Sec. 40306. - Exclusive right to name, insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, marks, and words

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name ''Civil Air Patrol'' and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Hawk200

Quote from: SarDragon on January 16, 2007, 09:07:29 PM
A little info on the "trademark" issue.

CAP doesn't have a trademark, per se, on its items. What it does have is this:

TITLE 36 > Subtitle II > Part B > CHAPTER 403 > Sec. 40306.
Sec. 40306. - Exclusive right to name, insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, marks, and words

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name ''Civil Air Patrol'' and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

Very interesting information. Legal wise, does that mean only use of CAP insignia by its members? Or does it include manufacture?

Smokey

Lord Monar,

You must be from Rio Linda boy....lemme 'splain it....it was humor. ;D

Typical of military, govt, etc.     Approve it in a manner it becomes a mute issue.   It would be like approving the use of a uniform bathing suit (Speedos  ;D) in October. 

You should know.....,  for example I was at Nellis a few years ago in March to do a magazine article on the Thunderbirds.  Temp was 80+. The HEAT was still on in the Thunderbird hanger.....they said it could not be turned off as the base had a set date for the turnover to A/C from heat.  Typical SNAFU.

If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
To err is human, to blame someone else shows good management skills.

lordmonar

Not when you consider that the base is all on the same heating system.  You can't just turn it off for one building.  So the T-bird hanger may have been hot...but the dorms would have been freezing.

Is it SNAFU...sure....but it's not because there is no reasoning behind it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 16, 2007, 09:18:01 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on January 16, 2007, 09:07:29 PM
A little info on the "trademark" issue.

CAP doesn't have a trademark, per se, on its items. What it does have is this:

TITLE 36 > Subtitle II > Part B > CHAPTER 403 > Sec. 40306.
Sec. 40306. - Exclusive right to name, insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, marks, and words

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name ''Civil Air Patrol'' and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

Very interesting information. Legal wise, does that mean only use of CAP insignia by its members? Or does it include manufacture?

Note the first line - "use the name". If it sez CAP or Civil Air Patrol, it better be licensed by NHQ. And why would you want to manufacture something if you couldn't sell it to at least make back your expenses?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Slim

I can understand the corporation taking measures to protect it's name and intellectual property.  What I don't understand is why this is such a problem all of the sudden?

I used Spur Cleaners (1800nametape.com) for my name and branch tapes since about 1986, exclusively.  They produced a good product with a fast turn-around, even back then.  And mind you, that was strictly mail-order business at the time.  With the introduction of the Internet and on-line ordering, it only got better.  I could order up a set of name and branch tapes on Monday, and have them by Friday.

Last summer, I ordered a nameplate for the new corporate service uniform from them on a Monday.  They had to call me on Tuesday because I transposed two numbers on my credit card.  Got that straigtened out, and still had my nameplate on Thursday.  Sorry, but Vangard just can't beat that kind of turn-around, even if I would have paid for expedited shipping (which I didn't with Spur-never needed to). 

I also had to order a set of blue AF major epaulet slides from Vangard since MCSS was out of them, and had no idea when they'd be in stock.  So, I went through their regular website (not civilairpatrolstore.com).  I ordered them for $9.80, plus standard shipping, and still spent less than $13 for them.  So, why then are they charging a flat $7 shipping fee through the CAP site?  Could it be because they have us by the short ones?

Sorry, but I refuse to use Vangard unless absolutely necessary.  I'll buy from the Hock, MCSS, police uniform stores, even a surplus joint before I'll give up my money to them for CAP stuff.  As for name and branch tapes, I still have a few new ones (I always order more than I need), once those are gone, I'll be reusing them until NHQ and Vangard either lighten up with these C & D orders, or give us some kind of alternative.

Another serious question.  Aren't CAP distinctive ribbons also covered under this?  I mean, the Unit Citation is fairly common, but what about the Commander's Commendation?  What I'm leading up to is this.  Why isn't NHQ/Vangard raising hell with the folks at Ultra-thin Ribbons?


Slim

mikeylikey

I agree!  Vanguard is ripping us off.  Why are their products in the MCSS cheaper than if we ordered them from them on line?  Even not counting taxes, it's still cheaper in store than on line!  Now like the poster said above me, the price for the same uniform bling is more expensive on the cap specific site than on their "military" site. 
Unfair business practices!  Call the better business bureau!
What's up monkeys?

Hawk200

Quote from: SarDragon on January 17, 2007, 03:11:18 AM.... And why would you want to manufacture something if you couldn't sell it to at least make back your expenses?

That's the part where "free market" and "fair competition" comes in. And the fact that it costs more on the CAP side than the military side shows "gouging".

A lot of people are disputing whether or not it's "legal" for Vanguard to be a sole source. So, I'm gonna drop that angle from here, it could be argued all day without any kind of resolution.

What I will throw out there is this: Is it fair to require someone to spend 3 dollars on a nametag, when the same product of equal or better quality used to be available for 75 cents apiece? How many people thing that is ethical?

I think that anyone that does think it is equitable has a seriously skewed sense of priorities, or has more money than brains.

Pylon

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 17, 2007, 06:48:49 PM
I agree!  Vanguard is ripping us off.  Why are their products in the MCSS cheaper than if we ordered them from them on line?  Even not counting taxes, it's still cheaper in store than on line!  Now like the poster said above me, the price for the same uniform bling is more expensive on the cap specific site than on their "military" site. 
Unfair business practices!  Call the better business bureau!
I dunno:

CivilAirPatrolStore.com
USAF 2d Lt epaulets   - Product ID: 8400205  - Price: $5.00

VanguardMil.com
USAF 2d Lt epaulets   - Item: 8400205  - Price: $7.30




CivilAirPatrolStore.com
Christian Chaplain Badge - Product ID: CAP0749F  - $5.20

VanguardMil.com
Christian Chaplain Badge - Item: 2151100 - $7.20




CivilAirPatrolStore.com
Blue Cotton Web Belt, Mirror Finish Buckle & Tip, 44"  - Product ID: CAP0991A  -  $5.35

VanguardMil.com
Blue Cotton Web Belt, Mirror Finish Buckle & Tip, 44" - Item: 2500500 - $10.00




CivilAirPatrolStore.com
U.S. letters collar insignia, mirror finish  - Product ID: CAP0820B - $3.00

VanguardMil.com
U.S. letters collar insignia, mirror finish - Item: 3640610  -  $6.00


I don't see where they're terribly ripping off CAP members versus the general public, at least in that one regard.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP