So, I suppose we want to encourage self-deployment by CAP members now...

Started by RiverAux, November 28, 2006, 10:18:36 PM

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RiverAux

From CAP News Online:
QuoteMichigan CAP officers respond to fatal plane crash

1st Lt. Mike Sandstrom
Public Affairs Officer
Kellogg Field Senior Squadron
Michigan Wing

MICHIGAN — Two members of Civil Air Patrol's Kellogg Field Senior Squadron recently responded on their own initiative to a crash site in Pennfield, outside Battle Creek.

The pilot of a Cessna 170 had reported to the Kalamazoo/Battle Creek International Airport tower that he was experiencing problems and was going to land in a field about 8 miles northeast of Battle Creek.

Capt. Ken Glidden got word from a co-worker who heard the emergency calls on his scanner and contacted Lt. Col. Tom Reed, a retired police officer who still regularly volunteers with the Police Department.

Glidden and Reed then headed to the crash site in Pennfield Township to silence the Cessna's electronic locator transmitter.

"I wanted to get the ELT shut off before they called us at 2 a.m. about an ELT northeast of Battle Creek," Reed said.

"We did not have a mission number," he said. "I just called down to 911 Central Dispatch and asked them to see if anyone at the crash site could monitor (the CAP frequency) to see if the ELT was activated. No one at the scene could monitor that frequency, so ES-1 (Calhoun County Emergency Services) asked us to come out."

Photo by Capt. Ken Glidden

Lt. Col. Tom Reed during a break at the site where a Cessna 170 crashed near Battle Creek, Mich.

Glidden and Reed drove to the site while using a portable air-band radio to confirm that the ELT was activated. After checking with a FAA representative on scene, the two CAP members turned it off.

"We ended up assisting the FAA investigator with measurements and he asked us our opinion on things about the airplane because he was not a pilot.

"He's an Air National Guard firefighter and he was familiar with military jets but not that familiar with general aviation aircraft," Glidden said.

The two CAP members were able to assist the investigator in other facets of his investigation at the scene as well. For example, he had documented and GPS-marked the position of what he thought was the Cessna's separated spinner.

Glidden pointed out, though, that the aircraft was not equipped with a spinner and that the component in question was part of a wheel fairing.

"I also commented about my uncertainty that the engine was even operating when the aircraft hit for the fact that only one blade was damaged on the propeller and that there was no evidence of digging marks on the ground where the nose and prop initially hit," Glidden said.

Glidden turned out to be correct, as the National Transportation Safety Board preliminary report shows the aircraft had engine problems and was losing oil pressure.

Local authorities and emergency response teams appreciated the CAP response and called the organization a great asset to the emergency response and disaster relief teams. In return, Reed and Glidden gained valuable experience and knowledge of what is involved in responding to an aircraft mishap.

The Cessna's pilot, Peter Fay of Mundelein, Ind., was fatally injured in the crash.

At least one of these guys is pictured in a CAP uniform.  Seems to go against all I've ever been taught about CAP ES.  This could easily have been done the right way.  They could easily have asked the locals to call the AFRCC, report a plane crash, and request local CAP assistance at the site.  Probably could have been done in 30 minutes.  This was a fatal accident with locals and FAA already on scene so there was no "emergency" situation here requiring CAP members to act on their own. 

Its one thing if you're at your squadron meeting out at the airport and a plane crashes there and you rush out to provide immediate assistance.  That sort of thing happens fairly regulary in CAP (I seem to see a story like that about once a year).  But these guys went looking for business and that ain't cool.  If it was the wrong sort of CAP member (arrogant and not very knowledgable:  "I'm with CAP and airplane searches are under the AF so I'm in charge here") you could ruin local relations for years. 

I am incredibly surprised this story was posted on CAP News Online. 

DNall

Yes, it should have been re-written from the release to knock out things that violate regs. We've had that conversation already I think about the need for NHQ PR to handle their business, no need to repeat it.

What those guys SHOULD have done is called AFRCC & informed them of the ES1 (whatever that is ) request, the contact number for them, and that they were already on-scene. The RCC controller would have issued them a mission number fairly quick, after verifying everything was on the level, and the guys would have been covered retroactive to when they rolled out. Thaty still should have gotten a slap on the wrist though. That's the method you're supposed to use if you're driving along & wittness a crash & happen to have your uniform in the trunk (you know half of you reading this do).

RiverAux

I have been told that the AFRCC really doesn't like us to call requesting a mission ourselves.  In this case, with local authorities on scene I think it would be more appropriate for them to call and ask for CAP assistance. 

I think that would have a better chance of getting approved by AFRCC if the locals called them directly rather than a CAP guy calling up and said he heard about a crash and he decided to go check it out, and "oh, by the way, can I have a mission number to cover what I decided to do on my own without even calling my wing commander or anyone else in the chain of command?"  I think that sort of request would be frowned upon. 

Doing it this way would also be a good learning experience for the locals.  We don't want them in the habit of requesting assistance directly from the CAP unit.  We want them calling the NOC or AFRCC depending on the situation.  Thats what the CAPabilities handbook is for. 

DNall

No right of course. What they're worried about is some idiot smacking the side of a plane on the ramp opposite the ELT mount till they get a signal on their scanner, then calling AFRCC for a mission number so they can get a find ribbon & sign off on thier SQTR.

The case above is actually pressing the limits as it clearly broke SOP for requesting CAP. Really, the FAA guy should have turned off the ELT & CAP should never have been alerted.

If you get in a situation where it's backwards like that though & you need to do anything other than point at a couple things & leave, then you do call it in to give them a heads up & contacts on the requestor. They'll do the paperwork backwards to get you covered in case you break a leg, & they'll take credit for the find/assist in their stats.

JohnKachenmeister

A call to wing HQ could have gotten them a temporary mission number while Wing HQ called AFRCC.

But then there is the issue of uniforms.  Not everybody carries a flight suit in the trunk of the car.

In fact, the only guy I can think of who would is in Michigan and drives a Big Red station wagon. :D
Another former CAP officer

Eclipse

This would generate an official, written reprimand from me, as well as the possibility of revoking quallifications for remidiation.

There is no excuse, and these guys should have known better.

"That Others May Zoom"

bosshawk

Kach: have an input into your comment about carrying flight suit in the car: I have a "go bag" in my trunk which contains a flight suit, boots, t-shirt and long johns.  I also carry my flight bag in the same trunk.  I live 50 miles from my closest CAP airplane and am often away from the house, so I guess that I figure that I best be prepared, so I carry all that junk.

A number of years ago, I was walking across the ramp at my home airport and someone from one of the FBOs called to me.  Seems that an ELT was going off and he knew that I was in CAP and asked me if I would find it and turn it off.  One other CAP member happened to be talking to me and he and I found the offending ELT and turned it off.  No notification to law enforcement, Sq, Wing, AFRCC or anyone else.  I certainly thought that what we did was perfectly legal and proper.  Of course, didn't get the local paper involved and sure as Hell didn't call National PAO.
Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

SJFedor

I guess someone at national realized the screwup as well, because sometime in the past few hours, the story has been fully deleted from CAP News Online.

I keep my flight bag and my spare flight suit in my car, cuz you never know when you'll have to save the day in your 172.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

Eclipse

It's still there as of 12:13 Chicago time.

As a screenshot now exists on my machine to prevent the re-write of history.

"That Others May Zoom"

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: bosshawk on November 29, 2006, 05:27:03 PM
Kach: have an input into your comment about carrying flight suit in the car: I have a "go bag" in my trunk which contains a flight suit, boots, t-shirt and long johns.  I also carry my flight bag in the same trunk.  I live 50 miles from my closest CAP airplane and am often away from the house, so I guess that I figure that I best be prepared, so I carry all that junk.

A number of years ago, I was walking across the ramp at my home airport and someone from one of the FBOs called to me.  Seems that an ELT was going off and he knew that I was in CAP and asked me if I would find it and turn it off.  One other CAP member happened to be talking to me and he and I found the offending ELT and turned it off.  No notification to law enforcement, Sq, Wing, AFRCC or anyone else.  I certainly thought that what we did was perfectly legal and proper.  Of course, didn't get the local paper involved and sure as Hell didn't call National PAO.

I used to keep my flight bag in my trunk, but I learned the hard way that excessive heat can royally screw up a handheld GPS.  In any case, I'm a GTL, and let my mission pilot qualifications lapse.  I didn't have the time to keep current on both, so I made one of my famous "Command Decisions" to stay on the deck.  Much as I'd LIKE to fly, I recognized a few facts:

1.  As an Army (MP) officer, I knew more about movement on the ground, land navigation, effects of terrain on missions, traversing (or avoiding) difficult terrain and gleaning information from a terrain map than most CAP guys.

2.  When I was enlisted, I was a Navy hospital corpsman, and spent some of my wasted youth as a company aidman with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children.  After a tour in Vietnam, I STILL can apply 4X4's with Kling or a battle dressing in my sleep.  And thanks to PTSD, sometimes I do!

3.  I'm still a pilot, and can put a pilot's mind to the target.  "What would I do if..." can sometimes develop hunches that can pay off.

So I stay on the deck for the most part.  If I fly CAP planes it is on administrative missions.  "Hello, I'm the Inspector General, and I'm here to help you."
Another former CAP officer

ELTHunter

I don't have first hand knowledge of it, but have heard that there have been times when ELT's have been going off at our airport for a day or two.  After telling AFRCC about it and getting to response, some one got a DF or a handheld air band radio, went out and identified the plane and asked the FBO to have someone turn it off.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

DNall

Yeah we've turned stuff off w/o a mission number too, no big deal, no uniform either, so what. I sure as hell wouldn't admit I'd heard  pilot announce his intention to crash on scanner & then jump in a uniform & think turning off the ELT was anything like a priority. If I felt REALLY motivated, I might call AFRCC & give them a heads up to talk to FAA & MAYBE if I'm just stupid that day ask them to give me a call back if they need any help. Call to Wg is equally good.

I didn't even recheck the link here at 10 to 11, but it's funny if they pulled it. I do hope they take a minute to eval & rewrite those things in the future. Any one of us would have spotted that & could have sanitized that story to make CAP look great, while also calling their wing CC to whip out the "clue-by-four" (thx again Kach for that one.

BillB

WHAT is wrong with this statement?

"Hello, I'm the Inspector General, and I'm here to help you."
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

JohnKachenmeister

From my perspective, Bill, nothing.

But I've heard that statement from the perspective of a unit commander, and I am reminded of the Army addage:

"The mission of the Inspector General Corps is to come along after the battle and bayonet the wounded."
Another former CAP officer

Major Carrales

If I remember ICS correctly, the first one on the scene is the IC until a higher more qualified authority comes on the scene.

I often see crop dusters dusting crops at various parts of the year (normally cotton), I have always wondered what I would to if it didn't pull out of that dive or if it clipped something.

I also have a scanner in my car and turn it on when passing local airfields.

Am I in the wrong? 
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Pylon

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 21, 2006, 06:12:31 PM
Am I in the wrong? 

To help out in that event?  No.

Would you be in the wrong though if you pulled your zoom bag out of the trunk and changed into CAP uniform, declaring yourself the Incident Commander on scene, and then proceeded to help out others?  Well...
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Major Carrales

Quote from: Pylon on December 21, 2006, 06:15:12 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 21, 2006, 06:12:31 PM
Am I in the wrong? 

To help out in that event?  No.

Would you be in the wrong though if you pulled your zoom bag out of the trunk and changed into CAP uniform, declaring yourself the Incident Commander on scene, and then proceeded to help out others?  Well...

What if I called my Group Commander?

Or Someone at Wing?

Would that be right?

To do such a thing?

(sorry I just read "The Night before Christmas to a class of 8th graders that we just early dismissed for the Christmas Break)

Honestly though,  is it that out of line?
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Pylon

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 21, 2006, 06:19:48 PM
Quote from: Pylon on December 21, 2006, 06:15:12 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 21, 2006, 06:12:31 PM
Am I in the wrong? 

To help out in that event?  No.

Would you be in the wrong though if you pulled your zoom bag out of the trunk and changed into CAP uniform, declaring yourself the Incident Commander on scene, and then proceeded to help out others?  Well...

What if I called my Group Commander?

Or Someone at Wing?

Would that be right?

To do such a thing?

(sorry I just read "The Night before Christmas to a class of 8th graders that we just early dismissed for the Christmas Break)

Honestly though,  is it that out of line?

Read CAPR 60-1.  There's procedures for "911" missions when life and property are at stake.  You're smart; you can figure it out.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Major Carrales

Quote from: Pylon on December 21, 2006, 06:21:32 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 21, 2006, 06:19:48 PM
Quote from: Pylon on December 21, 2006, 06:15:12 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 21, 2006, 06:12:31 PM
Am I in the wrong? 

To help out in that event?  No.

Would you be in the wrong though if you pulled your zoom bag out of the trunk and changed into CAP uniform, declaring yourself the Incident Commander on scene, and then proceeded to help out others?  Well...

What if I called my Group Commander?

Or Someone at Wing?

Would that be right?

To do such a thing?

(sorry I just read "The Night before Christmas to a class of 8th graders that we just early dismissed for the Christmas Break)

Honestly though,  is it that out of line?

Read CAPR 60-1.  There's procedures for "911" missions when life and property are at stake.  You're smart; you can figure it out.

Yes, I am well aware of this.  But the tenor of this post begat doubt in my mind.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

SJFedor

Shifting gears...

I was flying a 172 to South Jersey Regional on a C-9 (maintenance) sortie to get a seat rail on the passenger side repaired. I landed, cleared, and popped on the DF and set the radio to 121.5 as I always do, to make sure I don't have a beacon blaring. But alas, I turn it on, and there's a loud and proud signal. I taxi to the maintenance area, shut down, and check my own beacon, not mine. So, I sat back for a little bit, let them mess with the seat rail, and checked again. Still there. So, at that point, I made the decision to make a few phone calls.

First, to my unit commander, who forwarded me onto a wing staff officer. The response I got was "well, wander around, if you find it, tell the FBO and they can handle it." So, I did, and it was found to be a small single in a big hangar.

Just for safety, I then called the AFRCC to see if they had a report of a signal in the area, just so I could say it was located as a false alarm, so they don't send out the calvary when the FBO had already shut it down. They had one by McGuire which had been found and shut down, but none in the VAY area. I guess the hangar had shielded the signal.  I thanked the duty officer for his time, got back in my plane, and completed the maintenance sortie.


Was what I did wrong? I didn't do anything unsafe, coordinated all my actions with the FBO manager, while informing him that this was not an AFRCC mission, but rather offering to help him find the signal with my assistance, since I'm the DF god and all  ;D, since it was obvious it was on the field, and non distress. As well, I informed my chain of command of what I was doing, the end result of it, and continued as filed. I would hope that I saved some people some time and money.


I'm sure some other CAP pilots and GT's may have come across a situation like this, how would you handle it?

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

arajca

There is a difference between the one that started this thread and the last one: First, CAP members self-dispatched to an incident. They weren't on-scene already. The second, CAP members stumbhled onto a situation, notified proper chain of command and authorities, and rendered assistance. Two very different scenarios.

The second scenario was, IMHO, handled properly.

afgeo4

Do we know there was no existing MOU between this CAP unit and the Emergency Management Agency in question?  Don't forget, we can be hired by organizations other than USAF.
GEORGE LURYE

afgeo4

I would make sure there's a written release for this filed paperwork so it doesn't come back as questions of why the signal wasn't shut off.  Personally, I'd insist on the FBO contacting the owner of the aircraft so the ELT would be shut down. 2 reasons... first, the a/c could be moved in the middle of the night and the AFRCC would have to alert everyone and second, if a non-distress signal goes off and isn't shut off and then a real, distress signal goes off in the area, which one will you find? How long will it take you to find it? Will you kick yourself in the ass for not shutting it off? I know I would.

Now if you did everything you could short of breaking into someone else's a/c to shut the thing off and still couldn't, then sure, cya and go home.
GEORGE LURYE

SJFedor

That's what I did, talked to the FBO manager, told him I heard a signal and would like to work with him to find it, found it in a storage/maintenance hangar, happened to be a bird they were working on, so they just opened the little trap door and flicked the switch.

Of course, with all the other prior notifications first. If I couldn't have found someone to get into the aircraft legally, I guess I woulda had to wrap the airplane in tin foil and stick a "Your ELT has been found by the Civil Air Patrol" sticker on it.

Almost sounds like a frat prank.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

Ricochet13

OK . . . .my 2 cents.

Don't care what the regs say . . . if hear a "Mayday" on the frequency (CAP or otherwise), my first priority will be to get to the scene ASAP.  And just so you know . . . I have done that.  Heard the "Mayday", realized it was on a pipeline 3 miles from my house, and I got in the car and went.  Have no regrets, neither did the Grandfather, his wife, and two grandchildren.  Their aircraft had blown a cyclinder and the made a forced landing.  Was first on the scene and found them trying to walk out of a heavily wooded portion of U. S. National Forest.  I got their before they "disappeared" into the woods.  Come on guys, people are our priority!

And so you know, once I had determined no one was injured other than being scared, I called on the local repeater and got another member who happened to also by the wing alerting officer (just lucky), he then contacted AFRCC and dealt with them.  Again, people come first.

Happens that the radio I used wasn't NTIA compliant either, but it was the only thing I had as no cell phone coverage. 

To this day the pilot thanks me every time I see him.

As I said . . . no regrets.

RiverAux

Ricochet that is so different from the situation that started this thread it isn't even funny.  I don't think anyone would have a problem with what you did unless you decided to put on your CAP uniform when you went out. 

lordmonar

Quote from: RiverAux on December 25, 2006, 12:24:45 AM
Ricochet that is so different from the situation that started this thread it isn't even funny.  I don't think anyone would have a problem with what you did unless you decided to put on your CAP uniform when you went out. 

No...I got to say...it is part and parcel of the whole discussion.  Why do we say that Ricochet's self deployment is okay but the yahoos in the CAP article was not?

The regulation about self deployment is there to help protect the individuals going out into the woods.  Ricochet was very stupid (but noble) to self deploy.  What would have happened if he got hurt?  Who knew he was out there?

The other reason we have rules about self deployment is because of jurisdictional relationships.  No one wants us poaching in their back yard.

Does this mean we should not help in a real life threatening situation?  No of course not.  What it does mean is that we (CAP) needs to find ways of steam lining the deployment process.  We need to clearly understand where each wing and squadron fits in the overall SAR operations plan and we need to stick to the plan.

Does that mean, if we are sitting at the Airport and an ELT goes off we should wait the 3 ours it take AFRCC to make the call and start the alert process?  NO...it means we call our squadron commander, our wing commander and AFRCC in that order, make sure we have the right number of trained personnel and equipment for the job and we deploy.

The self deployment rules are about safety....our safety....we do not compromise rescuer safety just because.  Unless you actually see the crash with your own eyes...the few minutes it takes to make the calls and assemble the teams will not make that much difference to the victims but can make a world of difference to the rescue team.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

RiverAux

QuoteWhy do we say that Ricochet's self deployment is okay but the yahoos in the CAP article was not?

Easy. he apparently did it as a private citizen and not as a CAP member.  He didn't do anything different than any other person would (or should) have done in a similar circumstance. 

The people that started this thread put on CAP uniforms and went out to a non-emegency site (they already knew the people were dead and officials were on scene) and presented themselves as CAP members. 

Totally different situations. 

QuoteDoes that mean, if we are sitting at the Airport and an ELT goes off we should wait the 3 ours it take AFRCC to make the call and start the alert process?  NO...it means we call our squadron commander, our wing commander and AFRCC in that order, make sure we have the right number of trained personnel and equipment for the job and we deploy.

That is not what the people did who started this thread.  They didn't bother asking anyone's permission.  That is the problem. 

lordmonar

Riveraux...I know what you are saying...and I agree...but we should not be letting Ricochet and other self deplorer's off the hook so easily.  They may have deployed as private citizens...but they may have thought they were CAP members.
For their own protection we have got to educate them to this fact.  There is no difference between what ricochet did and those two yahoo in the article.  They all self deployed and we don't do that.  Unless you are an eye witness to the crash/incident you stay put until someone in authority calls you.  You may be proactive by calling your chain of command, even calling up your team members and having them stand by....but being on stand by is not deploying.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

RiverAux

So, you are taking the position that Ricochet is at all times a CAP member?  Rather than call the county sheriff if I believe an airplane crashed by my house, I need to work my way through the CAP bureacracy? 

There is a huge, huge, huge difference between going to help somebody after an accident as regular Joe Citizen Pilot and doing so under your auspices as a CAP member.  As long as you're not wearing a CAP uniform or in any way representing yourself as a member of CAP, you can go do what you want. 

Sure, our folks need to be educated about these distinctions.

arajca

As most of the folks here know, "Mayday" is a call for help. Any station receiving a "Mayday" is obligated to render aid if possible and appropriate for them to do so. Being that close to the location, Ricochet took what I would consider the appropriate steps. There are some details left out, like was he in uniform or driving a CAP vehicle, but the overall incident was properly handled.

Yes, there is a huge difference in being on CAP's time vs. private/non-CAP time, and I think it was properly handled. Notifying the AFRCC is a nice touch, but he could have just as easily called the sheriff to make the notification.