The compiled list of CAP uniform suggestions....

[Hawk200]

Didn't look like anything was getting added on the other thread, so here's the compiled list.

1.   Replace ultramarine blue cloth with navy blue for all accoutrements on BDU's. (6)
2.   Authorize SM Officers to wear cloth grade insignia on BDU caps. (4) {Somebody listened!}
3.   Produce a grade insignia for C/AB. Utilize a shield without chevrons (3)
4.   Produce and authorize distinctive CAP Senior Member NCO grade insignia. (3)
5.   Standardize to a single recruiter ribbon. (3)
6.   Authorize cloth name/aviation badge patch on flight suit. (3)
7.   Authorize a cloth version of the Commanders badge for BDU's. (3)
8.   Authorize light gray BDU or six pocket pants for wear with the blue golf shirt. (2)
9.   Authorize khaki, or light gray BDU uniform for summer. (2)
10.   Eliminate American flag on BDU's. (2)
11.   Require Cadet Airman rank on both collars for all uniform variations. (2)
12.   Eliminate Group Commander badge; mirror USAF wear standards (2)
13.   Authorize sewn on color grade for green flight suit. (2)
14.   Approve brown leather A-2, with distinctive CAP nametag, for wear with Blues. (2)
15.   Require wear of only tapes, grade, cloth badges and wings on the BDU uniforms. (2)
16.   Produce and authorize a cloth Model Rocketry badge, mirroring the existing metal badge in design. Require wear on left pocket. (2)
17.   Eliminate golf shirt as a mission uniform. Casual wear in garrison. (2)
18.   Require Nomex flightsuits for flight. (2)
19.   Approve blue pants/white shirt as alternate uniform; eliminate white/grays. (2)
20.   Eliminate CAP cutouts from light blue shirts for SM and SM NCOs. (2)
21.   Implement a phase out date on the older service coat. (2)
22.   Eliminate corporate uniforms. (2)
23.   Approve no-shine brown (tan?) boots with utility uniforms. (2)
24.   Authorize a standard physical fitness uniform.
25.   Produce aircrew wings for scanners and aircrew other than pilot/observer.
26.   Eliminate Blue BDU's.
27.   Consolidate uniforms to one Air Force version, and one corporate version.
28.   Combine the Corporate Service Dress Uniform and CAP Distinctive uniforms.
29.   Authorize cadet officers to wear cloth rank insignia on flight uniforms.
30.   Return to cadet enlisted wearing rank on one collar, "CAP" insignia on other.
31.   Require "CAP" under/over rank insignia on headgear.
32.   Standardize epaulettes for cadets and seniors to a single color (gray?).
33.   Eliminate jumpsuit.
34.   Permit wear of any badge on flightsuit leather nametag; allow multiple badges.
35.   Remove metal insignia from new corporate service coat. Use same insignia as blues.
36.   Approve a single color cord for scholastic honor cadets. Wing would approve wear.
37.   Approve a ribbon for honor cadets. Add clasps for additional years or semesters.
38.   Change SMWOG to Officer Candidate, and utilize a blank CAP slide as grade insignia.
39.   Reduce the number of senior achievement ribbons.
40.   Eliminate the requirement for senior members of having badges/ribbons fall below notch of service coat, and below the tip of collar of shirts/blouses.
41.   Utilize black grade slides, ROTC style. CAP letters embroidered same as current slides.
42.   Utilize standardized nametags for all ranks. Potentially, use an Air Force nametag.
43.   Authorize a dark blue/black Gore-Tex parka with BDU's.
44.   Approve black fleece (Army issue) jacket for wear with BDU's.
45.   Approve heather gray beret as an optional item with blue BDU and Aviator Uniform.
46.   Authorize high visibility outer-garments (yellow?) for wear with utility uniforms.
47.   Require blue patrol cap to be worn with Blue BDU's in the field.
48.   Authorize special activities patches to be worn one-half inch below the American flag.
49.   Authorize wear of the golf shirt with jeans.
50.   Utilize an orange hard hat for ES missions instead of the white helmet liner.
51.   Redesign awards and decorations similar to those of the USAF such as Achievement and Commendation Medals.
52.   Allow any earned military badge to be worn on the Air Force type uniforms.
53.   Transition to the Airman Battle Uniform.
54.   Redesign cadet officer rank insignia to one gold dot for 2ndLt, one silver for 1st, two silver for Capt, one gold diamond for Maj, one silver for LtCol, and two silver for Col.
55.   Authorize a blue beret as optional Cadet headgear, utilizing a CAP shield.
56.   NBB participants wear NBB patch on BDU's; St. Albans Cross badge on right pocket of blues.
57.   Authorize a "USAF AUXILIARY" tape on BDU's to replace "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tape.
58.   Eliminate vivid colors on Civil Air Patrol patches; utilize subdued colors mirroring the Air Force.
59.   Wear flag on left shoulder of BDU's; allow activity/qualification patches on right shoulder.
60.   On corporate service dress nametag, move "CIVIL AIR PATROL" lettering to below name. Use on all service uniforms.
61.   Replace epaulettes on service coat with epaulettes of gray cloth. Pin on metal rank insignia.

A few interesting suggestions were made, and a few explanations changed my own view points on a couple of things. A few suggestions made were selfserving, but were included anyway.  All in all, this was an enlightening excercise.

[pixelwonk]

wow.
Like a gawker at a crash scene, I just can't help but stare at the carnage.

[TankerT]

 

[DNall]

Obviousyl some of that contradicts & some go together. Three items at least off that list are already being authorized at or above the listed standard. A couple others I know are already under consideration. A couple are absolutely no goes via the AF for cause & that isn't changing. Oveall you can see a break down of where people stand on the AF relationship. It's interesting.

[lordmonar]

1.   Replace ultramarine blue cloth with navy blue for all accoutrement's on BDU's. (6)--why?
3.   Produce a grade insignia for C/AB. Utilize a shield without chevrons (3)--Why
They should not be C/AB all that long.  USAF does not have a mark for AB's, so again why?  The duel CAP's work fine.

4.   Produce and authorize distinctive CAP Senior Member NCO grade insignia. (3)--Why...we don't have distinctive CAP SM Officer grade insignia.

5.   Standardize to a single recruiter ribbon. (3)--Good I support this one!

6.   Authorize cloth name/aviation badge patch on flight suit. (3)--Again Good!

7.   Authorize a cloth version of the Commanders badge for BDU's. (3)--I just made that suggestion up my chain of command.  Hopefully it will get presented at the next NB.

8.   Authorize light gray BDU or six pocket pants for wear with the blue golf shirt. (2)--Okay.

9.   Authorize khaki, or light gray BDU uniform for summer. (2)--No got enough uniforms as it is.

10.   Eliminate American flag on BDU's. (2)--6 of one half dozen of the other.

11.   Require Cadet Airman rank on both collars for all uniform variations. (2)--Good
12.   Eliminate Group Commander badge; mirror USAF wear standards (2)--Good

13.   Authorize sewn on color grade for green flight suit. (2)--Do you mean color on blue or color on OD green (like the US Navy wears)?

14.   Approve brown leather A-2, with distinctive CAP name tag, for wear with Blues. (2)--Won't happen but we can hope!  And add the Flight suit to the list.

15.   Require wear of only tapes, grade, cloth badges and wings on the BDU uniforms. (2)--I would expand that to squadron patches too and maybe special team patches (A Ground Team Patch, Aerial SAR Team patch, Color Guard Team Patch).  But not NCSA or anything of that nature.

16.   Produce and authorize a cloth Model Rocketry badge, mirroring the existing metal badge in design. Require wear on left pocket. (2)--why?  We want to eliminate the patch all together.

17.   Eliminate golf shirt as a mission uniform. Casual wear in garrison. (2)--No...if it is a uniform it is a uniform.  Either eliminate all together or not at all.

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

19.   Approve blue pants/white shirt as alternate uniform; eliminate white/grays. (2)--Good

20.   Eliminate CAP cutouts from light blue shirts for SM and SM NCOs. (2)--Good

21.   Implement a phase out date on the older service coat. (2)--Good

22.   Eliminate corporate uniforms. (2)--Can't with out USAF lifting weight/grooming standards and/or CAP establishing them.

23.   Approve no-shine brown (tan?) boots with utility uniforms. (2)--NO!  Looks like ass with BDUs!

24.   Authorize a standard physical fitness uniform.--Good

25.   Produce aircrew wings for scanners and aircrew other than pilot/observer.--6 of one half dozen of the other.

26.   Eliminate Blue BDU's.--Can't...see 22 above

27.   Consolidate uniforms to one Air Force version, and one corporate version.--Good

29.   Authorize cadet officers to wear cloth rank insignia on flight uniforms.--They could but they would have to change it so often.  No...I'll say pass on this one.

30.   Return to cadet enlisted wearing rank on one collar, "CAP" insignia on other.--Only if we follow through and make the cadet officers do the same.  No.

31.   Require "CAP" under/over rank insignia on headgear.--No

32.   Standardize epaulets for cadets and seniors to a single color (gray?).--Yes

33.   Eliminate jumpsuit.--already done.

34.   Permit wear of any badge on flight suit leather name tag; allow multiple badges.--Good

35.   Remove metal insignia from new corporate service coat. Use same insignia as blues.--Yes

36.   Approve a single color cord for scholastic honor cadets. Wing would approve wear.--No, approve wear of cord at national level.

37.   Approve a ribbon for honor cadets. Add clasps for additional years or semesters.--If you go to ribbon then nix the chord.

38.   Change SMWOG to Officer Candidate, and utilize a blank CAP slide as grade insignia.--Good.

39.   Reduce the number of senior achievement ribbons.--We only have 5 as it is.  Which one would you eliminate?

40.   Eliminate the requirement for senior members of having badges/ribbons fall below notch of service coat, and below the tip of collar of shirts/blouses.--Good

41.   Utilize black grade slides, ROTC style. CAP letters embroidered same as current slides.--Bd...use blue like USAF slides.

42.   Utilize standardized name tags for all ranks. Potentially, use an Air Force name tag.--Good.  Blue 3 line for the the blues and silver three line with the service coat.

43.   Authorize a dark blue/black Gore-Tex parka with BDU's.--no BDU camo Gortex.

44.   Approve black fleece (Army issue) jacket for wear with BDU's.--already allowed.

45.   Approve heather gray beret as an optional item with blue BDU and Aviator Uniform.--No.

46.   Authorize high visibility outer-garments (yellow?) for wear with utility uniforms.--already allowed.

47.   Require blue patrol cap to be worn with Blue BDU's in the field.--No anymore that we should require the BDU patrol cap to be worn in the field.

48.   Authorize special activities patches to be worn one-half inch below the American flag.--No eliminate them all together.

49.   Authorize wear of the golf shirt with jeans.--No.

50.   Utilize an orange hard hat for ES missions instead of the white helmet liner.--No.  Just eliminate the White helmet liner altogether.  ES mission should be able to wear any safety gear they need to with reference to the regulations.

51.   Redesign awards and decorations similar to those of the USAF such as Achievement and Commendation Medals.--Needs more work but I kind of like this idea.

52.   Allow any earned military badge to be worn on the Air Force type uniforms.--No sorry.  Just would not look right with army marksman and marine expert rifle man danglies.   I think maybe we need to expand what can and cannot be worn but no necessarily ALL military badges.

53.   Transition to the Airman Battle Uniform.--maybe

54.   Redesign cadet officer rank insignia to one gold dot for 2ndLt, one silver for 1st, two silver for Capt, one gold diamond for Maj, one silver for LtCol, and two silver for Col.--okay

55.   Authorize a blue beret as optional Cadet headgear, utilizing a CAP shield.--either make it mandatory or not at all.

56.   NBB participants wear NBB patch on BDU's; St. Albans Cross badge on right pocket of blues.--No...eliminate all NCSA patches.

57.   Authorize a "USAF AUXILIARY" tape on BDU's to replace "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tape.--No...our name is not USAF Auxiliary it is Civil Air Patrol.  You would not expect the USAF to wear "Americans Aerospace Power" in stead of "U.S. Air force on their uniforms would you?

58.   Eliminate vivid colors on Civil Air Patrol patches; utilize subdued colors mirroring the Air Force.--No...the color help separate us from the USAF and that is the only thing that allows us the wear their uniforms.  Plus there is no need for subdued colors other than a need to play army!

59.   Wear flag on left shoulder of BDU's; allow activity/qualification patches on right shoulder.--No...eliminate activity patches.

60.   On corporate service dress name tag, move "CIVIL AIR PATROL" lettering to below name. Use on all service uniforms.--okay

61.   Replace epaulets on service coat with epaulets of gray cloth. Pin on metal rank insignia.--Do you know how much that would cost?!  When they had to retro fit the officer coat back in the 90's it was like $25-$50!  The coat costs enough as it is without adding extra costs to it.

[Hawk200]

44.   Approve black fleece (Army issue) jacket for wear with BDU's.--already allowed.

I would like to see a reference on this one. I haven't heard of it yet.

52.   Allow any earned military badge to be worn on the Air Force type uniforms.--No sorry.  Just would not look right with army marksman and marine expert rifle man danglies.   I think maybe we need to expand what can and cannot be worn but no necessarily ALL military badges.

52 was my suggestion, and I think I need to clarify. I do not mean marksmanship badges. I mean specific qualification badges that most branches wear above the pocket/ribbons. The CMP badges have a pretty consistent policy across the branches, and they're already authorized, so I'm not really addressing those..

To me, if a guy earns an Air Warfare badge from the Navy, I don't see any problem with him wearing it. Just an opinion, yours may vary.

The only stipulation I would have is that it be on a DD214 (or equivalent for the Guard), or  on paperwork that shows it was "awarded in writing by competent military authority".

[carnold1836]

Just out of curiosity what do you have against people displaying their participation in one of the NCSAs? They are hard earned and I know that my cadets that have gone are very proud of their achievements. How else do you propose they display their achievements?

[DNall]

Holy crap this is going to be long, but too the point.

1.   Replace ultramarine blue cloth with navy blue for all accoutrement's on BDU's. --why?

Most think ultramarine blue looks hideous. Dark blue maintains the distinction while reducing the tendency to vomit. Honestly, I'd prefer white on OD background, and that may even be theoretically possible given we'll still be in BDUs when the AF goes to ABUs. Ultramarine is merely a holdover from OD fatigues that came prior to BDUs, when OD tapes were shot down on BDUs no other alternative was ever proposed. Do we need subdued patches & tapes so as to hide in the woods, certainly not, but neither do ROTC/JROTC cadets who do wear subdued tapes regardless of not being on a military contract. Anything that improves professional appearance while following the AF example makes us more marketable & improves retention.

3.   Produce a grade insignia for C/AB. Utilize a shield without chevrons --Why? They should not be C/AB all that long.  USAF does not have a mark for AB's, so again why?  The duel CAP's work fine.

I agree there should be no device for C/AB. If we go back to "CAP" one collar for C/enlisted then use "CAP" on both sides for AB, just for logistics reasons & for them to learn where/how to pin grade on when they get it. Otherwise, nothing is fine, just like the AF.

4.   Produce and authorize distinctive CAP Senior Member NCO grade insignia. --Why...we don't have distinctive CAP SM Officer grade insignia.

Agree, no reason to produce distinctive adult enlisted stripes. The people wearing the AF stripes have earned them in the military & that's the stripes the AF wants them wearing. If we reshape CAP & add an adult enlisted corps the way it used to be from the beginning to the 70s, THEN I'd support making distinctive stripes.

8.   Authorize light gray BDU or six pocket pants for wear with the blue golf shirt. (2)--Okay.

This & the same gray BDU pants w/ the aviator shirt were & are the alternate proposal rather than BBDUs. Now that we're going to the alternate corporate blues & grays are hopefully going away at some point, those blue BDU pants are also acceptable for use w/ the golf shirt or white aviator shirt for field work.

9.   Authorize khaki, or light gray BDU uniform for summer. (2)--No got enough uniforms as it is.

Agree, hate this idea. Anyone on the gulf coast, like me, will respect hot weather issues, but this is stupid. The thickness & weave of the material (summer weight) makes the difference, much more than the color. We're part of the AF family, we need to act like it, not keep running off to do our own thing.

13.   Authorize sewn on color grade for green flight suit. (2)--Do you mean color on blue or color on OD green (like the US Navy wears)?

Same color grade on blue we wear on everything else. Full color grade on OD (like the navy now & us in the old days) would be better, but that won't happen.

14.   Approve brown leather A-2, with distinctive CAP name tag, for wear with Blues. (2)--Won't happen but we can hope!  And add the Flight suit to the list.

Right, but maybe if you used a distinctive color cloth name patch? Maybe with no grade on it? It's low priority, add hard to modify to make distinctive, & expensive... that's why it hasn't & most likely won't happen.

15.   Require wear of only tapes, grade, cloth badges and wings on the BDU uniforms. (2)--I would expand that to squadron patches too and maybe special team patches (A Ground Team Patch, Aerial SAR Team patch, Color Guard Team Patch).  But not NCSA or anything of that nature.

The issue is that in full color they begin to look like a hundred merit badges & highly unprofessional. Get them down to bare bones first, then we can talk about color subdued patches (AF style) for mission related quals, however, I tend to think those are best covered by specialty badges. Just watch the slippery slope to the girl scout uniform.

16.   Produce and authorize a cloth Model Rocketry badge, mirroring the existing metal badge in design. Require wear on left pocket. (2)--why?  We want to eliminate the patch all together.

This got pulled out of another item that I guess we forget to put on this list. Drop ALL patches. Use embroidered versions of ALL metal badges in the same positions on all uniforms.

17.   Eliminate golf shirt as a mission uniform. Casual wear in garrison. (2)--No...if it is a uniform it is a uniform.  Either eliminate all together or not at all.

It wasn't created to be a uniform & certainly is not one in anything but the technical sense. It should be removed all together, but at very least should not be seen in public when people are counting on us to go find their family & read our competence in the image we project. #49) golf shirt w/ jeans... are you psychotic?

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Actually there's several active CAP members alive now because they wore nomex, and others not because they didn't. We do some pretty dangerous general aviation flying. Lots of flight suits are avail from surplus, even some of the blue ones. You can also find both versions in most any size from ebay or online suppliers in nomex for $60 give or take. If you're going to fly you should do it safely, not cheaply. O-flights & non-members would be exceptions to this policy. A lot of wings do this already, it would just be taking it nationwide.

22.   Eliminate corporate uniforms. (2)--Can't with out USAF lifting weight/grooming standards and/or CAP establishing them.

That is AF doing away with the already slackened standard applied to CAP, or CAP doing away with members that don't meet it. The AF isn't changing, and CAP couldn't do that all at once without being in some trouble. Over time maybe, and watch out for that new NIMS credentialing system with PT requirements. I wouldn't count on it though.

23.   Approve no-shine brown (tan?) boots with utility uniforms. (2)--NO!  Looks like ass with BDUs!

Those were designed to be field boots for people in active combat situations that don't have time to do the extra maint to take care of their feet properly. They look bad w/ BDU/ACU/ABU. We'll go to whatever the ABU standard is when the time comes, until then, shine your boots & think about the people in combat that have so much more to do rather than whine about the little extra work you have to do as part of your service.

24.   Authorize a standard physical fitness uniform.--Good

It doesn't even have to be standardized items, just a description of an acceptable range of items & statement that while wearing such items during CAP activities that this is considered a uniform.

25.   Produce aircrew wings for scanners and aircrew other than pilot/observer.--6 of one half dozen of the other.

Actually, part of the badge proposal we worked on in the portal covered this, for professional image & retention reasons more than adding stupid bling. That thought process involved taking all the complex new technical systems we have (highbird, P25 support, RadMon, FLIR, ARCHER, SDIS... and the list will get longer & more complex over time) and & juxtaposing that with our basic observer rating. What emerged was that much of what is now required for observer would drop down under the scanner/aircrew rating, and the technical sign offs & mission commander capability would rise to the new navigator/observer rating. Here's the sample (that's color enamel centers AF-style outers):

26.   Eliminate Blue BDU's.--Can't...see 22 above

Can, see #8 above as alternative.

29.   Authorize cadet officers to wear cloth rank insignia on flight uniforms.--They could but they would have to change it so often.  No...I'll say pass on this one.

They don't tend to promote quickly in the C/ officer grades. The issue is they can't put grade on the name patch, just "CADET." This would be an OPTIONAL way for them to designate grade on that uniform if they choose.

30.   Return to cadet enlisted wearing rank on one collar, "CAP" insignia on other.--Only if we follow through and make the cadet officers do the same.  No.

What the hell do C/officers have to do with it? Obviously they wear their grade on blues in very different ways, and for a specific symbolic reason. The issue is that it is VERY expensive for Sqs to maintain enough stock of the various stripes to keep everyone in uniform. So expensive it tends not to happen, which leaves people getting promoted w/ no insignia or just not wearing any, and that greatly effects retention. This is a financial & logistics issue. Have HQ send me $500 worth of insignia each year & I'll do it your way, otherwise the old way was better & there's a lot of talk about it going back on the enlisted side.

31.   Require "CAP" under/over rank insignia on headgear.--No

Agree, no. This was posed months ago as a way to get AF to approve grade on BDU headgear. They've approved it now w/o this so the idea is gone, it did work for Goretex though.  

32.   Standardize epaulets for cadets and seniors to a single color (gray?).--Yes

No. Cadets will stay in blue slides cause they don't have the same officer insignia as the AF. Adults will for now stay in gray so we aren't confused w/ military officers. There may be some point in the future when our requirements/standards/training/professionalism nearly matches that of the AF & they decide to grant us something like blue or black w/ "CAP" & standard grade insignia when they think we deserve it, right now we don't & we aren't remotely aiming to try.

33.   Eliminate jumpsuit.--already done.

Is it? The dark blue utility uniform shown in 39-1 under the blue flight suit? It looks like it's still authorized to me & it's a bad thing.

34.   Permit wear of any badge on flight suit leather name tag; allow multiple badges.--Good

I don't know about any. Could we limit that to mission related. I don't need to see your cadet programs or AE badge under your observer wings.

36/37: Academic excellence ribbon/cord: pick one. Standard in ROTC is a ribbon. We could just use the same ribbon/devices already authorized on AF uniform & adapt the standards & SOP for getting grades & such.

39.   Reduce the number of senior achievement ribbons.--We only have 5 as it is.  Which one would you eliminate?

All. Are we talking about the PME ribbons for Lvl 1-5, if so those should go. They are indicated by the grade you're wearing. The stars on the leadership ribbon are covered by badges for everything now. Get rid of the Membership & Leadership ribbon. Consolidate the next three into one PME ribbon w/ devices for level 2-5.

40.   Eliminate the requirement for senior members of having badges/ribbons fall below notch of service coat, and below the tip of collar of shirts/blouses.--Good

What, why? It's the AF's uniform, wear it how they say or not at all.

41.   Utilize black grade slides, ROTC style. CAP letters embroidered same as current slides.--Bd...use blue like USAF slides.

AF blue slides w/ CAP & grade would be preferable, but that will NEVER EVER EVER again be authorized, EVER. No matter what. If CAP spots ossma bin laden trying to sneak a nuclear bomb across the border & saves the freaking world, AND also requires college degrees, PT, & a serious OTS for every officer... still NEVER EVER will blue slides be authorized to CAP, ever. That might as well be chiseled in stone by God almighty. Black is a compromise with precedent in that it's used by AFROTC/OTS/Academy.

42.   Utilize standardized name tags for all ranks. Potentially, use an Air Force name tag.--Good.  Blue 3 line for the the blues and silver three line with the service coat.

The one line Blue AF name tag is used in AFROTC/JROTC where most are not in the real AF. It would be much less expensive to use the blue one line name tag on adult & cadet versions of blues, white aviator, etc. Same one line silver AF name tag on service coat. We don't need 6 variations. We need smart & simple, which is almost always the AF way since they're already doing volume business.

43.   Authorize a dark blue/black Gore-Tex parka with BDU's.--no BDU camo Gortex.

Right Woodland Camo is now authorized w/ BDU using the new grade slide. Authorize same grade slide on Coast Guard dark blue goretex as OPTIONAL outterwear w/ coporate-style combinations.

44.   Approve black fleece (Army issue) jacket for wear with BDU's.--already allowed.

no it's not, you're thinking with BBDUs where you have some latitude. Only the M65 & now the goretex is authorized w/ BDU. We're in the AF family, not the Army.

45.   Approve heather gray beret as an optional item with blue BDU and Aviator Uniform.--No.

What's the weather like over there? Absolutely NO. I don't like us using berets. Use a ribbon if you have to, a cord if you absolutely must, a patch here & there if you must, and almost never a beret. Just because it's a corporate STYLE uniform doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. It should still be pressed & worn exactly as well as the AF-style uniform or not at all, and it should be configured with respect & deference to the AF way of doing things.

47.   Require blue patrol cap to be worn with Blue BDU's in the field.--No anymore that we should require the BDU patrol cap to be worn in the field.

You're thinking of the boonie hat. The patrol hat is required w/ BDUs, an should be w/ BBDUs.

48.   Authorize special activities patches to be worn one-half inch below the American flag.--No eliminate them all together.

I'm for getting rid of the flag actually & minimizing the color explosion. Go to one tab for each NCSA, you can wear your choice of two on one shoulder (whichever one is most appropriate). I'd go for making those arched & allow wings to make flat tabs for Wg special activities & let you wear one of those also.... this gets out of hand fast though.

50.   Utilize an orange hard hat for ES missions instead of the white helmet liner.--No.  Just eliminate the White helmet liner altogether.  ES mission should be able to wear any safety gear they need to with reference to the regulations.

The hardhats are stupid & pretty worthless really. CARRY a bright colored climbing helmet & wear a patrol cap unless rocks are in position to fall on you or you are in position to fall down a hill.

51.   Redesign awards and decorations similar to those of the USAF such as Achievement and Commendation Medals.--Needs more work but I kind of like this idea.

Dump current service awards that recognize training & not service - SaR, Disaster, CN, any thought of creating HLS or border patrol. You should get an achievement award for 50-100 hours/25 sorties in an operational area (SaR/disaster/HLS/etc), the rest needs to go on your 101. Dump the current political matrix of recognition awards that seem to require senior staff positions at the region or higher level. Reset a new merit based system that really recognizes major individual contributions. Also talk to the AF about publishing an AFI drawing AF personnel's attention to those military decorations awardable to CAP members on AFAMs, and the procedures for recommendations - streamline that process as much as possible. Fill holes left outside that with appropriate CAP decorations. Restrict certain additional awards to cadets only - IACE, NCC, Encampment. Work on a firearms program at encampments that meets the standards for award of the AF firearms expert ribbon.

52.   Allow any earned military badge to be worn on the Air Force type uniforms.--No sorry.  Just would not look right with army marksman and marine expert rifle man danglies.   I think maybe we need to expand what can and cannot be worn but no necessarily ALL military badges.

CIB & most any Navy badge look pretty silly too, but they earned them just as legit as the AF logistics guy earned his. I'd tend to agree though that we need to expand the list, but maybe restrict it to one mil badge.

53.   Transition to the Airman Battle Uniform.--maybe

It's a foregone conclusion, just the timing is in question. Let the AF get over to it, then let the supply of surplus BDUs dry up completely & the supply of surplus ABUs come on line. THEN we'll transition. So probably sometime between 2009 & 2011. I think I mentioned earlier that we have an opportunity while in BDUs & with them in ABUs to clean the thing up some & let it transition over when we change to the new stuff later.

54.   Redesign cadet officer rank insignia to one gold dot for 2ndLt, one silver for 1st, two silver for Capt, one gold diamond for Maj, one silver for LtCol, and two silver for Col.--okay

I understand where that logic came from, but these are NOT CAP specific insignia. They are used much more widely than CAP & recognized by many folks familiar with the military. If you want to change them, then use the AFROTC system.

55.   Authorize a blue beret as optional Cadet headgear, utilizing a CAP shield.--either make it mandatory or not at all.

Again, no berets. Blue beret is already cleared for NBB grads. De-authorize the stupid orange hats used for hawk mountain. They can use a beret also if it'll shut them up, red or whatever, but I'd prefer they be in blue also w/ a dif flash, same deal with some of the other Wg ES schools that shuld be consolidated accoridng to the NEAT plan I saw on another thread here a couple days ago... That is a system of Nationally recognized ES academies (like Hawk Mtn), run over 5-days (overlapped w/ encampments, 3 for national curriculum, 2 for state specific or additional items - ex. swiftwater, helo ops, etc), at the Wing or region level.

57.   Authorize a "USAF AUXILIARY" tape on BDU's to replace "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tape.--No...our name is not USAF Auxiliary it is Civil Air Patrol.  You would not expect the USAF to wear "Americans Aerospace Power" in stead of "U.S. Air force on their uniforms would you?

As much as I'd like it to, this won't happen. However, the item did include a request to congress to authorize CAP to also do business as USAF Auxiliary & all abreviations thereof (minus USAFA, which belongs to the academy). That may actually happen at some point in teh future, but there's some other business to be handled first.

58.   Eliminate vivid colors on Civil Air Patrol patches; utilize subdued colors mirroring the Air Force.--No...the color help separate us from the USAF and that is the only thing that allows us the wear their uniforms.  Plus there is no need for subdued colors other than a need to play army!

Seperate is right. The form of CAP uniforms is exactly the measure of the closeness of the CAP & AF relationship (not the working relationship between CAP & CAP-USAF that's quoted to us). The color explosion looks idiotic & people in the military think so too. There's no need to "play army" but there is a great need to appear professional & exude competence, real or not, and that includes to the public as well as to the military. We already fight teh boy scouts w/ airplanes image, or the flying club that volunteers to fly around on the govt's dime looking for people... we have to work real hard to be seen as a professional agency with extensive training & experience being out there on the job w/o need of adult supervision by some crew of retirees serving on a CERT team. The AF will be fine with it if it presents a professional image on their uniform & doesn't make AF personnel think they should salute or follow your orders. They just have to stick to the geneva convention.

61.   Replace epaulets on service coat with epaulets of gray cloth. Pin on metal rank insignia.--Do you know how much that would cost?!  When they had to retro fit the officer coat back in the 90's it was like $25-$50!  The coat costs enough as it is without adding extra costs to it.

It'd be more than 25-50 for this major overhaul I think, and I'm very scared of the quality tailoring we'd see come back. It's one thing if you asked a seamstress at a military base to do it, quite another when the korean lady at the local cleaners a few hundred miles away gets the job, or God forbid someone tries to do it themselves. We can either change the color of the slides to something like black that'll blend in a bit more, keep them the same, or maybe go to some kind of shoulderboard like ROTC uses on outerwear.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Item 61:  The sew-on epaulet with metal rank would not be as expensive as you think, since you would save like $75 by buying an enlisted jacket to convert.  The quality is still a major issue, and would probably end up very uneven to put it kindly.

54:  The cadet officer insignia mirrors the ROTC insignia for both the AF and the Army.

53:  The Airman Battle Uniform will happen, but not for about 8-10 years.

51 and 39:  Our ribbons are in need of a major overhaul.  We have way too many.

[Hawk200]

OK, folks, I think I need to clear up a couple misunderstandings.

One: All I did was compile a list. Period. These are not all my suggestions, they are a simple compilation. The entries with numbers next to them indicates how many people agreed with that particular idea.

Two: Although I did compile a list, I do not understand the reasoning behind every suggestion. You will have to ask the person that put forward the suggestion in the first place. That will probably require digging into the old thread.

This was a personal interest item to me, but I thought I would share it with everyone here. I think it does point to some peoples ideas as to how they feel we stand with the Air Force.

I must say though, that some of the continued discussion has been enlightening, and I have changed some of my personal viewpoints based on how some folks presented their concepts.

[aveighter]

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Good point!  Until your the one on fire.

[PA Guy]

Just out of curiosity what do you have against people displaying their participation in one of the NCSAs? They are hard earned and I know that my cadets that have gone are very proud of their achievements. How else do you propose they display their achievements?

Actually the majority of NCSAs don't require a cadet to meet a performance standard.  If they show up, don't get in trouble and get sent home they "graduate".  I'm not sure what the "achievement" is in doing that.

[DNall]

bragging rights I guess. Most of them are "familiarization" or "orientation" courses meant to get kids fired up about potential career oportunities.

[smj58501]

Looks like this is going to keep on going like the Energizer bunny, so I'll throw this one out there...

Reference the golf shirt summer uniform. I hope we keep it, even if it is restricted to garrison or mission base activities. It is definitely NOT a ground team uniform, and arguments can be made in both directions regarding its appropriateness for aircrew wear. Be that as it may, this is not the purpose of my post.

It is without question the easiest, cheapest uniform to procure and maintain, and it is pretty straightforward (with one exception/ suggested change I will detail below)... you put it on, tuck in the shirt, put on a black belt and shoes and abracadabra you are in uniform. Its a great starter uniform for new, inexperienced officers to use while they get the hang of the rest of them and CAP in general. Sometimes we may take for granted what a big change uniforms are for new members (especially those who have never been exposed to military/ paramilitary organizations). In short, it allows new seniors to meet the spirit, intent, and letter of 39-1, they feel part of the team right away because they are not as self conscious about if their uniform is correct, and requires minimal investment and maintenance up front as they get used to CAP and determine if it is the right organization to dedicate to long term. It is also a great meeting uniform for any senior.... especially if you have no time to run home and change after work. Everything you need is easy to bring with to work and slip into before the commute to the meeting.

The one change I would suggest.... 39-1 states "medium grey" for the slacks. This color description in my opinion creates too much "grey" area (pardon the pun). There definitely have been a few "thats not medium grey" "ok, what is medium grey?" "I don't know but thats not it" "what makes you so sure" arguments in our state. The solution in my opinion is simple... make the slacks black. They look fine with the golf shirt and match the existing belt, shoe, and sock requirement. Most importantly, black pants are generally black pants. Arguments can be made on shades/ degrees of black, but there is definitely less wiggle room than there is with medium grey.

[lordmonar]

Just out of curiosity what do you have against people displaying their participation in one of the NCSAs? They are hard earned and I know that my cadets that have gone are very proud of their achievements. How else do you propose they display their achievements?

Nothing really against this except that the BDU's are too busy as they are.  I would like to see Wing, Squadron, name tape, CAP tape and duty badges.  Then maybe we can develop "team" badges for membership on specific teams.

I know that NBB and PJOC and a Flight Academy are all great and the participants worked hard...but at a mission base....I don't really care.  Nor does it tell anyone of your abilities and or what you are doing there at the mission base.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[lordmonar]

Most think ultramarine blue looks hideous. Dark blue maintains the distinction while reducing the tendency to vomit. Honestly, I'd prefer white on OD background, and that may even be theoretically possible given we'll still be in BDUs when the AF goes to ABUs. Ultramarine is merely a holdover from OD fatigues that came prior to BDUs, when OD tapes were shot down on BDUs no other alternative was ever proposed. Do we need subdued patches & tapes so as to hide in the woods, certainly not, but neither do ROTC/JROTC cadets who do wear subdued tapes regardless of not being on a military contract. Anything that improves professional appearance while following the AF example makes us more marketable & improves retention.

Ultra marine dark blue they both look the same to me.  If we can't go subdued....why change?  BTW...the USAF used to wear the ultra marine and white back in the 70's-80's.  That is where CAP got the idea.

This & the same gray BDU pants w/ the aviator shirt were & are the alternate proposal rather than BBDUs. Now that we're going to the alternate corporate blues & grays are hopefully going away at some point, those blue BDU pants are also acceptable for use w/ the golf shirt or white aviator shirt for field work.

Okay....as a replacement for BBDU's maybe.  So if our field uniform will be gray...should we change the blue flight suit to gray as well?

The issue is that in full color they begin to look like a hundred merit badges & highly unprofessional. Get them down to bare bones first, then we can talk about color subdued patches (AF style) for mission related quals, however, I tend to think those are best covered by specialty badges. Just watch the slippery slope to the girl scout uniform.

That is why we should stick to the basics...using the USAF as a model.  Name, CAP, Wing and Squadron, specialty badge and sometimes a special team badge and nothing else. 

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Actually there's several active CAP members alive now because they wore nomex, and others not because they didn't. We do some pretty dangerous general aviation flying. Lots of flight suits are avail from surplus, even some of the blue ones. You can also find both versions in most any size from ebay or online suppliers in nomex for $60 give or take. If you're going to fly you should do it safely, not cheaply. O-flights & non-members would be exceptions to this policy. A lot of wings do this already, it would just be taking it nationwide.

I don't know...I've got to call you on this one...do we really have that many crashes that involve fires?  And how many of those crashes that invovle fires were so large that it does not matter what you were wearing?  If it is so dangerous why are we letting non members and cadets flying around with out protecitive clothing?  No....Nomex is a good idea...but a requirment?  No the cost/benifit ratio just does not equate.

24.   Authorize a standard physical fitness uniform.--Good

It doesn't even have to be standardized items, just a description of an acceptable range of items & statement that while wearing such items during CAP activities that this is considered a uniform.

Like I said.  Gray sweats, tops and bottom.  Cheap, easily available, slight variations don't show that much.

29.   Authorize cadet officers to wear cloth rank insignia on flight uniforms.--They could but they would have to change it so often.  No...I'll say pass on this one.

They don't tend to promote quickly in the C/ officer grades. The issue is they can't put grade on the name patch, just "CADET." This would be an OPTIONAL way for them to designate grade on that uniform if they choose.

I woud go for that. 

33.   Eliminate jumpsuit.--already done.

Is it? The dark blue utility uniform shown in 39-1 under the blue flight suit? It looks like it's still authorized to me & it's a bad thing.

I thought we were talking about the old smurf suit.  As for the blue utility uniform...is is not identical to the blue flight suit just not Nomex?  If we kill one we should kill them both.

39.   Reduce the number of senior achievement ribbons.--We only have 5 as it is.  Which one would you eliminate?

All. Are we talking about the PME ribbons for Lvl 1-5, if so those should go. They are indicated by the grade you're wearing. The stars on the leadership ribbon are covered by badges for everything now. Get rid of the Membership & Leadership ribbon. Consolidate the next three into one PME ribbon w/ devices for level 2-5.

I would go for that.  We can do the same for the cadets as well.  Eliminate all acheivement and milestone awards and have a Cadet Programs Award with lots of pips and a Professional Develpment Award with only 4 pips.

40.   Eliminate the requirement for senior members of having badges/ribbons fall below notch of service coat, and below the tip of collar of shirts/blouses.--Good

What, why? It's the AF's uniform, wear it how they say or not at all.

Actually the USAF does not have this restriction any more.  If you got put the wings up on the shoulder seam...that where they have to go.

41.   Utilize black grade slides, ROTC style. CAP letters embroidered same as current slides.--Bd...use blue like USAF slides.

AF blue slides w/ CAP & grade would be preferable, but that will NEVER EVER EVER again be authorized, EVER. No matter what. If CAP spots ossma bin laden trying to sneak a nuclear bomb across the border & saves the freaking world, AND also requires college degrees, PT, & a serious OTS for every officer... still NEVER EVER will blue slides be authorized to CAP, ever. That might as well be chiseled in stone by God almighty. Black is a compromise with precedent in that it's used by AFROTC/OTS/Academy.

Well actually you mean CAP will never be authorised blue with CAP again.  We wore them back in the 80's before the "CAP Maj and the USAF armory" incedent.

42.   Utilize standardized name tags for all ranks. Potentially, use an Air Force name tag.--Good.  Blue 3 line for the the blues and silver three line with the service coat.

The one line Blue AF name tag is used in AFROTC/JROTC where most are not in the real AF. It would be much less expensive to use the blue one line name tag on adult & cadet versions of blues, white aviator, etc. Same one line silver AF name tag on service coat. We don't need 6 variations. We need smart & simple, which is almost always the AF way since they're already doing volume business.

I agree with you...except I know the USAF will not go for it because of the "mistaken identity" issue.

44.   Approve black fleece (Army issue) jacket for wear with BDU's.--already allowed.

no it's not, you're thinking with BBDUs where you have some latitude. Only the M65 & now the goretex is authorized w/ BDU. We're in the AF family, not the Army.

Let me clarify.  If its cold out side and you are wearing a black fleese under you BDU...I can't see anyone objecting.  We can wear black turdle necks, black T-shirts, and any color thermal underwear.

Brown or black. Either V-neck, U-neck, crew neck or athletic style without pockets. Black or brown turtlenecks, dickeys, or thermal
undershirts without pockets may also be worn. EXCEPTION:
members may wear white thermal undershirts even if exposed at neck.
Unit commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and cloth or
silk screen emblem, to be worn on left side of chest not to exceed 5
inches in diameter.

so if the black fleese is worn as a thermal undershirt...it is already authorised.

47.   Require blue patrol cap to be worn with Blue BDU's in the field.--No anymore that we should require the BDU patrol cap to be worn in the field.

You're thinking of the boonie hat. The patrol hat is required w/ BDUs, an should be w/ BBDUs.

I thought they were saying the blue patrol cap instead of a squadron cap or some such.  I don't think we should be allowed the boonie cap at all.

48.   Authorize special activities patches to be worn one-half inch below the American flag.--No eliminate them all together.

I'm for getting rid of the flag actually & minimizing the color explosion. Go to one tab for each NCSA, you can wear your choice of two on one shoulder (whichever one is most appropriate). I'd go for making those arched & allow wings to make flat tabs for Wg special activities & let you wear one of those also.... this gets out of hand fast though.

I can see where you are going...but why not just eliminate the NCSA patches all together?

[lordmonar]

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Good point!  Until your the one on fire.

I understand...Nomex is a good idea....but a requirement?   A cost benifit analysis just does not prove the case. 

[BillB]

Can someone give me any logic on #54 of such a change? The original cadet grades were all NO grades, no officer grades. Then there was a change to have Cadet 2LT, 1LT and Captain. The next change added Cadet major to the list, and the final change in the late 1950's allowed Cadet LTCol and Colonel. Except for a short period where a gold single pip was authorized for cadet Flight Officer, the system of Cadet grades has been in effect for 50 years or so. It mirrors all JROTC grades. If a CAP C/Col with two diamonds meets a AFJROTC C/LTCol with two diamonds who has the higher grade? There seems no logical reason to change.

[fyrfitrmedic]

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Good point!  Until your the one on fire.

I understand...Nomex is a good idea....but a requirement?   A cost benifit analysis just does not prove the case. 

That may appear to be the case until one factors in the incredibly high cost of burn aftercare.

[AlphaSigOU]

54:  The cadet officer insignia mirrors the ROTC insignia for both the AF and the Army.

Not quite. The cadet officer insignia is modeled after the Army ROTC/JROTC cadet officer insignia. Modern Army ROTC/JROTC cadet officer grade is just a plain piece of metal; the CAP cadet officer grades are modeled after the Army ROTC/JROTC versions introduced in the 1950s, with the hatch pattern in the middle.

AFROTC cadet officers use shoulder boards/shoulder marks with stripes a la Navy while AFJROTC cadet officers use a hideous (in my opinion, which doesn't count for much) pin-on insignia that looks like NCO stripes.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.