Epauletes on white aviator shirt for SMWOG

[Slim]

It has always been my understanding that SMWOG wear CAP cutouts on the collars of the whites and blues, and CAP cutouts on the lapel of the service jacket, but they do not wear epaulets. 
However, even vanguard is confused (or correct) (I really don't know) but they list the blank epaulets as:

Civil Air Patrol - Enlisted Senior Member Gray Epaulets
Grey epaulet - enlisted senior member (no rank).
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_390_408_2035_2037&products_id=7207

My understanding was that the blank epaulets were for the few number of Senior member NCOs to pin their insignia on, however if I recall regulations say NCO's pin their insignia on their collars and lapels like SMWOG.  I could be wrong though.

I concur.  The intended use of those blank sleeves was for senior member NCOs to pin metal insignia on.  However, for a time, Vanguard was doing special orders for embroidered NCO slides (just set up the machine to run on a grey CAP epaulet sleeve instead of a blue AF sleeve).  They were never intended to be a "rank" insignia for SMWOG.

With the latest round of ICLs published, they now specify that senior member NCOs wear standard, embroidered chevrons on the sleeve of both AF style and corporate style uniforms.  Possibly because the Air Force has also done away with the embroidered epaulet sleeves.

Here's what the current 39-1 has to say on the subject.

1. Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve.  Senior member NCOs and Airmen wear 4-inch cloth chevrons halfway between shoulder seam and
elbow bent at 90-degree angle.
2. Lapel Insignia: Highly polished U.S. insignia worn by senior member officers; highly polished CAP
insignia worn by senior member NCOs and Airmen and senior members without grade. Insignia is
placed halfway up the seam, resting on but not over it. Bottom of insignia is parallel with the ground.

1. Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve. Senior
member NCOs and Airmen wear 3-inch or 3 1/2-inch cloth chevrons on the sleeve or embroidered gray epaulet sleeve. Senior members without grade and NCOs and Airmen wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear the CAP lapel/collar insignia on both sides of collar.

1. Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve. Senior
member NCOs and Airmen wear the 3-inch or 3 1/2-inch cloth chevrons on the sleeve or embroidered gray epaulet sleeve. Senior members without grade and NCOs and Airmen wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear the CAP lapel/collar insignia on both sides of collar.

FWIW, the same bolded clauses are listed for the female equivalents to each of these combinations.  Notice that it doesn't say anywhere that a blank gray epaulet sleeve may be worn.  Being a restrictive regulation, if it doesn't say you can, then you can't.

Since the white shirt for the CSU combination is set up the same as the AF style blue shirt per the ICL, I'm safe to say that these clauses also apply to that combination.

Oddly enough, here's what the manual says about the aviator shirt/gray slacks combo:

2. Grade Insignia: Gray CAP epaulet sleeves displaying grade insignia.

I would argue that, since a SMWOG has no grade by definition, that nothing is worn on the collar or epaulets.

[EMT-83]

Never, ever, count on Vanguard for uniform information.

Regarding the original question, simply look at 39-1, Figure 6-1 and 6-4.

[indygreg]

From the CAP Knowledge Base:
Members without grade wear the gray CAP epaulet sleeves without grade insignia. (Vanguard Item# CAP0747U)

See CAPM 39-1 Figure 4-2. Men's and Women's Aviator Shirt with Epaulets (Senior Members Only)
NOTES:
1. Nameplate: Gray, 3-line CAP nameplate is worn immediately above the right breast pocket.
2. Grade Insignia: Gray CAP epaulet sleeves displaying grade insignia.
3. Tie/Tab: USAF blue tie (males) or CAP blue ties/floppy bow are authorized. Mandatory with long sleeve shirt.
4. CAP Aviation Badges and Specialty Insignia: Worn 1/2 inch above the left breast pocket or 1/2-inch above CAP ribbons. If both an aviation badge and specialty insignia are worn the specialty insignia will be placed 1/2 inch below the aviation badge.
5. CAP Specialty Badges: Worn centered on left breast pocket. Females also have the option of wearing specialty badges 1/2 inch above the pocket (beneath the aviation badge) if they prefer.

I finally figured out how to submit a question to the Knowledge Base.

[Eclipse]

From the CAP Knowledge Base:
Members without grade wear the gray CAP epaulet sleeves without grade insignia. (Vanguard Item# CAP0747U)

100% INCORRECT

We just can't win...

What's the date of that article, and who answered it if it was a direct response?  Unfortunately there are old articles with bad info
there which is corrected in subsequent articles but not removed or corrected in the old ones.

We need to get this corrected once and for all.

[indygreg]

I submitted the question last evening, and it was answered this afternoon. Answer was from NHQ.  If that's what they say, then it's good enough for me.

[heliodoc]

"We need to get this corrected once and for all."

Is that the "war cry" from the CAP out in the field?  How about real coherent clear and up-to-date info?  None of which CAP cares much about!!!!

NHQ  listening, reading, evaluating ANYTHING from the PAYING membership?

Corrected once and for all?  Knowledgebase, 39-1, the membership all running 'round and 'round giving out the wrong poop.  Can not wait 'til a COMPLETELY new uniform gets commissioned

Wait til 2030 on that   until then CAP gets what it gets.......stellar MISinformation!!!

[Eclipse]

How about you knock it off?

[lordmonar]

From the CAP Knowledge Base:
Members without grade wear the gray CAP epaulet sleeves without grade insignia. (Vanguard Item# CAP0747U)

100% INCORRECT

We just can't win...

What's the date of that article, and who answered it if it was a direct response?  Unfortunately there are old articles with bad info
there which is corrected in subsequent articles but not removed or corrected in the old ones.

We need to get this corrected once and for all.

What's to be corrected?

39-1?  They used the same reference that I did.
So is it the interpetation that needs to be corrected?  I think I got Gen C's number around here somewhere...

[vento]

Incidentally, the knowledgebase just issued an update on the subject today 15 APR 2010.
link here

It does not mention SMWOG at all. It points to 39-1 which does not ask SMWOG to wear any epaulets at all.

[SarDragon]

That link is to an ancient response. Its number is 608, while a new today response is numbered 2162.

That question was related to a long discontinued uniform option.

In any case, it's not a convincing argument on the correctness of a SMWOG wearing plain epaulet sleeves.

[kd8gua]

I have never, ever seen a SM wear blank epaulet sleeves. I myself am a SM, and I don't wear blank epaulet sleeves. Neither do the other SM's in my squadron. The rule is pretty much identical to the cadets with no grade: CAP cutouts on the collar of the Blues shirt/BDU blouse or lapels of the service coat if wearing one. The only major difference is that SM's wear cloth CAP cutouts on the BDU's in lieu of metal. I've yet to see any SM wear the blank epaulets. If someone does see one, please take a photo!

[vento]

Yes, it is number 608 and it was updated today 15 APR. Agree it answers an older question but it is the most relevant one when searching for white aviator shirt. I guess the point is, we should really look for the answers in 39-1 instead of the knowledge base.

[SarDragon]

But what was the update? How did it relate to the topic at hand?

The original Q, and the response, had nothing to do with the correctness of a SMWOG wearing blank epaulet sleeves. It was related to a long discontinued uniform combination, and is, IMHO, useless for the current topic.

[indygreg]

I'd like to point out that the answer I posted earlier was to a question that I submitted to the knowledge base earlier this week, and was specifically about SMWOG's wearing blank epaulets.  If they say SMWOG's wear blank sleeves, the issue is decided, as far as I'm concerned.  That seems as close as we can get to an "official" ruling.

[Rotorhead]

I'd like to point out that the answer I posted earlier was to a question that I submitted to the knowledge base earlier this week, and was specifically about SMWOG's wearing blank epaulets.  If they say SMWOG's wear blank sleeves, the issue is decided, as far as I'm concerned.  That seems as close as we can get to an "official" ruling.

I'd like to point out that the "Knowledge Base" is NOT official regulation and has, in the past, been known to offer answers that were clearly incorrect

[vento]

But what was the update? How did it relate to the topic at hand?

The original Q, and the response, had nothing to do with the correctness of a SMWOG wearing blank epaulet sleeves. It was related to a long discontinued uniform combination, and is, IMHO, useless for the current topic.

Major, I am not trying to argue with you here. I guess I should make it more clear when I posted. The original poster said that the knowledgebase told him/her that SMWOG is to wear the blank epaulets even though it is not what 39-1 said. So I searched the knowledgebase using the keyword "white aviator shirt" and the only one article that was recently updated within the timeframe of this post is that OLD article 608.

Why an old article needed an update is beyond me, perhaps the gentleman or lady answering the questions that the original poster asked made a mistake? Just a guess based on the date of update of the article, and also the fact that I didnot find any other articles about the subject, hence my comment to look in the 39-1 instead of the knowledgebase. The knowledgebase is great and most of the time gives me the answer I seek, but it is also known to provide funny answers. 

[lordmonar]

I'd like to point out that the answer I posted earlier was to a question that I submitted to the knowledge base earlier this week, and was specifically about SMWOG's wearing blank epaulets.  If they say SMWOG's wear blank sleeves, the issue is decided, as far as I'm concerned.  That seems as close as we can get to an "official" ruling.

I'd like to point out that the "Knowledge Base" is NOT official regulation and has, in the past, been known to offer answers that were clearly incorrect

But when the regulations are clearly not adequate to the job....what else are you going to do?

[indygreg]

I'd like to point out that the answer I posted earlier was to a question that I submitted to the knowledge base earlier this week, and was specifically about SMWOG's wearing blank epaulets.  If they say SMWOG's wear blank sleeves, the issue is decided, as far as I'm concerned.  That seems as close as we can get to an "official" ruling.

I'd like to point out that the "Knowledge Base" is NOT official regulation and has, in the past, been known to offer answers that were clearly incorrect

But when the regulations are clearly not adequate to the job....what else are you going to do?

My point exactly! I'll admit that I'm completely new to CAP, so I certainly have a long way to go before understanding all the regs, but 39-1 is way to confusing.  Everyone seems to have opinions on how items in 39-1 are interpreted, but who knows which interpretation is correct.  I sincerely appreciate everyones advice, however.

[SarDragon]

<Personal opinion follows>

I think a SMWOG not wearing blank sleeves will be less likely to get any questions/hassle about it than would a SMWOG who does wear them.

</Personal opinion>

[Gunner C]

The reason SMOGs wear CAP cutouts on the blue shirts is so they'll be easily distinguished from an AF airman basic.  There's no reason for that in the aviator shirt, so don't ruin the collar.

SMOGs have never worn blank sleeves.  That comes from the same people who will tell you the wrong information about foreign awards - they just make it up as they go and pass this off as 39-1 gospel just because to their unlearned ears it "sounds about right".  This is just another example of NHQ incompetence.  It's not that they're bad people, they just don't know what the heck they're talking about. 

This is a consequence of second rate training programs and crummy manuals & regulations.  I've seen SMOGs in all sorts of uniform combinations:  CAP cutouts on the lapels and US cutouts on the collar, CAP cutouts on the collar and lapels and officer braid on the sleeves, or any combination of the forgoing and an officer flight cap.

It's a never-ending parade of [word deleted by author] with no end in sight.  Personally, I'm tired of it and I'm not sure that I'm going to spend the $60 in the next two weeks to keep dealing with it.