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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Announcements  |  Topic: CAP has official grade abbreviations
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2007, 06:36:49 PM »

MLA is much better than APA.

...and Chicago Manual of Style better than both of those.  ;)

Never heard of it.


Until now.


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SarDragon
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« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2007, 06:44:20 PM »

Well, the Chicago Manual of Style is in at least its 14th Edition, and has been around since 1906.

As for all the choices given above, I prefer MLA, since they have simplified many things, and gotten away from some of the arbitrary "vanity" rules from times long past.
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Dave Bowles
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SARMedTech
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« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2007, 04:09:23 AM »

Oh, no, we have to talk about common sense again.

Internally, on official paper correspondence, the grade abbreviations, as defined in the CAP reg, should be used whenever practical. Conputer generated forms may not comply because somebody got lazy and didn't think about the difference between data stored in a computer, and the paper form. Computer data storage uses the shortest practical abbreviation to minimize the number of bits and bytes in a program, and in data storage.

Externally, it may be necessary to adhere to an external set of rules that provides some better consistency among the different abbreviations.

Bottom line - it's a situational thing. Do your best to follow the reg when you can, but maintain some flexibility when the situation doesn't allow strict compliance.

Concur!

It's called communications.  You adjust the deliver of your message to the conditions and the listener.  Outside communications needs to conform to the standards of the receiver.  The media uses APA as their standard so we should use that as well.

What is stupid is that we don't just change our regulation to APA as well.

Just to further confuse things, AP style and APA style are not the same. AP is the documentation and notation style used by the Associated Press. APA is the style manual published by the American Psychological Association for use in a great deal of scientific research literature.
MLA is much better than APA.

I prefer MLA as well. Being a product of a small, ULTRA-liberal college, I wrote literally hundreds of pages worth of research, mostly on social and cultural issues. Technically, I was a performing arts major (acting) but the bulk of my personal research was in psychology, sociology, cultural and humanistic studies. The MLA was the standard my college used so I became very comfortable with it. However, it is intended (despite my college's use of it for everything) for papers written on the arts, humanities, etc. Im currently working on my MS degree in Disaster Medicine and Emergency Management and we have to use APA. Its much more intricate and a phenomenal pain in the rear. Its not really a matter of one being better than the other, its a matter of the topic you are writing on, the depth of documentation from outside sources, etc. APA isnt bad, its just more commonly used for sciences, etc
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SARMedTech
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« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2007, 04:12:55 AM »

Well, the Chicago Manual of Style is in at least its 14th Edition, and has been around since 1906.

For those of you may want to find this style manual, its official name is the University of Chicago Style Manual and I think its now in its 17th or 18th edition.
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"Corpsman Up!"

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SarDragon
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« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2007, 04:23:59 AM »

Well, the Chicago Manual of Style is in at least its 14th Edition, and has been around since 1906.

For those of you may want to find this style manual, its official name is the University of Chicago Style Manual and I think its now in its 17th or 18th edition.

Ah, a new name. I took my title right off the cover of my 13th edition.
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Dave Bowles
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SARMedTech
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« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2007, 04:25:31 AM »

The problem I have with CAPs "standardized" grade abbreviations is a small one, but I think it shows that the devil is in the details and a lot of details get overlooked by CAP when it is creating regulations. The thing that bothers me is the Lt. abbreviations.  For 1st Lt they use one style, that being the common one used in the United States in terms of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. But then for 2d Lt they use (and for some reason only in this abbreviation) the European/British style. Im not surprised by it, it just makes it look a little silly and I have already had peopleask me what a "2d Lt" is because that abbreviation for 2nd is not one that Americans are used to using. Doesnt really matter much though because when referring to the person in speech, whether the Lt is 1st or 2nd, he/she is usually just referred to as Lt. Same with generals and often times sergeants. Then of course, there are all the shortenings in spoken reference to Petty Officers in the sea services. Ah well....Someone told me a long time ago, when dealing with the military or a quasi-military organization, its best not to try apply logic because the final result will probably be just total confusion. Best to just embrace the quirks and lack of standardization so you dont go bug house trying to figure it all out.
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"Corpsman Up!"

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SARMedTech
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« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2007, 04:29:29 AM »

I humbly apologize...i combined the names of two different style guides and got myself all turned around.  Sorry about that.
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"Corpsman Up!"

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gallagheria
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« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2007, 06:01:41 PM »

(The Army uses all 3-character rank abbreviations until you get to the general officer ranks due to the fact that there are only 3-characters allowed in the SIDPERS system).
You're right about the general officer rank abbreviations of BG, MG, and GA, but you left out OC--the only other 2-letter grade abbreviation in the Army.
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SDF_Specialist
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« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2007, 05:27:43 PM »

I probably deserve to be smacked for not only bringing this thread back up, but also for asking this question. Why do some find it horrible to not properly abbreviate rank? What is the problem fir 1LT being in place instead of 1st Lt.? Everyone gets the idea that the person is a first lieutenant. But why are so many people irritated by something so small?
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MIKE
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« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2007, 05:31:37 PM »

Maybe because it's regulated.  Attention to detail and all.
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Mike Johnston
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« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2007, 05:36:38 PM »

Maybe because it's regulated.  Attention to detail and all.

I understand that. I've actually gotten emails from NHQ referring to me as 1LT. Valenjevick.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2007, 07:00:36 PM »

On official written correspondence, the proper grade abbreviations are preferred for uniformity. This worked well for many years, until computers entered the picture.  Since memory was a valuable resource, not to be wasted, the abbreviations were shortened to use less memory. Now you have the CAPR 10- and 20-series rules for real written correspondence, and the shortened stuff for computer generated stuff. We should do what we can in each situation, and move forward.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2007, 08:30:03 PM »

I probably deserve to be smacked for not only bringing this thread back up, but also for asking this question. Why do some find it horrible to not properly abbreviate rank? What is the problem fir 1LT being in place instead of 1st Lt.? Everyone gets the idea that the person is a first lieutenant. But why are so many people irritated by something so small?

If one cannot pay attention to the details, especially after being corrected, how can one be expected to pay attention to the more "important" stuff.

At some level, especially for members without prior service experience, CAP is one big pile of details, and those details can pile up on you quickly.

Trivial little "details" like not having a valid pilot's license (or medical), flying without the POH, or with the checklist for a different airplane, or being featured in the national spotlight nationally wearing your nametag and badges on the wrong side of your uniform.

"It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading."
- General George S. Patton Jr., April 1943


"You cannot be disciplined in great things and indiscipline in small things. Brave undisciplined men have no chance against the discipline and valor of other men. Have you ever seen a few policemen handle a crowd?"
- General George S. Patton Jr, May 1941, in an address to officers and men of the Second Armored Division.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2007, 08:40:24 PM »

I wouldn't necessarily base your leadership principles on Patton.  He was not all he was cracked up to be.

As far as the abbreviation thing, it is something the AF did to differentiate itself from the Army.  It is in the tongue and quill, but I have seen many letters and whatnot from AF people that used the Army style of grade abbreviation.  In fact, you will sometimes catch it on AF.MIL
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2007, 11:35:23 PM »

As far as the abbreviation thing, it is something the AF did to differentiate itself from the Army. 

You'd think all those big, noisy aircraft (not to mention the stealthy ones) would be sufficient differentiation!
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Cecil DP
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« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2007, 12:17:27 AM »

Today was the 60th anniversery of the establishment of the Department of Defense and the services still don't use 1 system of writing  grade between the Army, Navy, and Marines. I would think that with all the forms and publications they put out someone would have decided on one.
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Michael P. McEleney
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gallagheria
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« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2007, 12:04:06 PM »

I actually prefer the Army method. Every grade abbreviation is completely capitalized and three letters or shorter. None of these extended abbreviations the other services use.

As for the reasons they remain different, it is politics. And technically they are different grades. Same pay scale for corresponding grades, but still different. Just look at the responsibility of each grade and how it differs by service. Just in the Army alone, a soldier's branch also affects what they will be doing at each grade. That is one reason I have been very disappointed with the phasing out of branch insignia on the ACU's. I am sorry, but a captain in the infantry is very different that a captain in the medical corps.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2007, 06:38:02 PM »

What about on the CAC card.  Mine says CPT (as in Captain).  Does an AF CAC card also say CPT, as the CAC program is run through DEERS, I seriously doubt they would differentiate between the services.  So based on if it is the same abbreviation scheme by the DEERS (DOD) then that is the greenlight to use it, right?
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2007, 06:40:07 PM »

That is one reason I have been very disappointed with the phasing out of branch insignia on the ACU's. I am sorry, but a captain in the infantry is very different that a captain in the medical corps.

I agree fully!  Plus it was getting rid of over 100 years of tradition, just to make the enlisted side feel better.  At least that was the reason in Army Times back in 2003.
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Nomex Maximus
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« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2007, 04:15:56 PM »

My CAP membership card identifies me as a 2LT.

so there!
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