CAP AF Wear Uniform Weight Standards to Liberal?

[tsrup]

People advocating the elimination of the AF style uniform don't think anything about the tradition behind it.  The CAP has a great history and unfortunately our uniform is one of the few things left of that.

If you want a full civi uniform than maybe being a Scout Master is more your speed.

The argument about feeling discriminated against because you don't wear the right uniform is invalid.  A good leader will be a good leader regardless of whether they wear blueDU's or BDU's.  Just make sure they look sharp.  A white aviator shirt is not an excuse to avoid the iron or look like a cave man.  A beard can be a beard and still look professional.  Not to say that non AF uniform wearers are soley to blame for unprofessional appearances, I have seen many blues that have looked absolutely terrible. 

Our uniforms are our organization's identity.  ALL OF THEM.  And regardless of the uniform that's worn the rank is the same, respect should be given to all members of CAP.  If there really is an issue of insubordination there are methods to deal with that in house rather than complaining on line and destroying one of the few traditions we have left.  People are missing the forest for view of the trees.

[Spike]

^ As strong proponent of history in CAP, I agree 100%.

[Stonewall]

The military does not have a weight problem...we are fighting a war, there is no chance that our American Fighting Force is overweight...

[heliodoc]

YUP

There is one great argument right there

So CAPers lookeee at allllll that uniform excitement at the volunteer level about uniforms is gettin' ya

That poor soldier may be the unit PSNCO, or the unit armorer   ........  hehehe

So if RM has got a few Fats and no real fuzzies.......WTH is CAP so excited about? 

But I myself have only gained 6 lbs since I left turnin wrenches on Hueys and Blackhawks....so I am not too excited or jumpy about Stonewalls photo........everybody has em

It's just funnier when CAP trips up over themselves  worried about PT , BMI, and CAP fit to fight appearance standards

Get on yer treadmill CAPers, you too could be in pictures! :clap: :clap: :clap:

[tdepp]

People advocating the elimination of the AF style uniform don't think anything about the tradition behind it.  The CAP has a great history and unfortunately our uniform is one of the few things left of that.

Rupster:
Indeed.  While I can't wear the AF-style blues because I suffer from CSES*, the fact that some of our members can is awesome and is a tremendous part of our history. 

Was the soldier in the picture at boot camp? A reservist? Active duty?  I think context is important.

*Can't Stop Eating Syndrome

[Stonewall]

Was the soldier in the picture at boot camp? A reservist? Active duty?  I think context is important.

He was deployed in Iraq and eating at a chow hall.  He wouldn't have been allowed to show up to Basic Training like that. 

Doesn't matter if he's a Reservist or Active Duty, he's deployed and should be capable of performing at a combat level...notice the M-16 strapped over his shoulder?

We have a guy about that size in my Air Guard Squadron.  We have girl in the same boat.  When I was in the Army we had a dude like that too.  I've even seen them in the Marine Corps...and of course the Navy.  They make big uniforms like that for a reason...people need them.

[heliodoc]

C'mon  Stonewall

You are expecting CAPTalkers to pay attention to detail...I have been retired for 5 yr=ears and detected that right off

CAPTalkers ......Ten HOOOOT  Pay attention!!

How about comments about fat and fuzzies now??, huh??

Even large people have a mission in the RM.  For all you CAP superstars wanting to be fit for the fight....Get on down to your recruiter ASAP, we need  your "experience" and criticisms to size, fat and fuzzy........ NOW ..... ::to replace those in Theater!!!

[Flying Pig]

Was the soldier in the picture at boot camp? A reservist? Active duty?  I think context is important.

He was deployed in Iraq and eating at a chow hall.  He wouldn't have been allowed to show up to Basic Training like that. 

Doesn't matter if he's a Reservist or Active Duty, he's deployed and should be capable of performing at a combat level...notice the M-16 strapped over his shoulder?

We have a guy about that size in my Air Guard Squadron.  We have girl in the same boat.  When I was in the Army we had a dude like that too. I've even seen them in the Marine Corps...and of course the Navy.  They make big uniforms like that for a reason...people need them.

BLASPHEMER!!!!!    But yes, the Navy of course.

[tdepp]

C'mon  Stonewall

You are expecting CAPTalkers to pay attention to detail...I have been retired for 5 yr=ears and detected that right off

CAPTalkers ......Ten HOOOOT  Pay attention!!

How about comments about fat and fuzzies now??, huh??

Even large people have a mission in the RM.  For all you CAP superstars wanting to be fit for the fight....Get on down to your recruiter ASAP, we need  your "experience" and criticisms to size, fat and fuzzy........ NOW ..... ::to replace those in Theater!!!

Again, I'm not military.  Are these weight standards typically enforced in the military?  What happens if someone is someone can't lose weight?  Are they separated?

As to the large soldier in Iraq: He needs our thanks, not our derision. That's lots of context in my book.

[heliodoc]

Maybe with a little of Stonewalls' or others help here...

Some COULD be medical profiles, some could be near end of enlistment, maybe future enlist bars until weight is reduced, some maybe on the ever infamous Army fat boy program, any number of variables as dictated by the Commander or whomever.

As for enforcement its happening in some Guard units and probably most Active units.  If somebody can not lose weight, they may be medical boarded out, out due to "non adaptability to military life" could be any number of Command and other decisions whether or not to keep the troop.

But CAPTalkers ought to keep quiet about fat boy in the chow hall ....he probably got 40/40 on the M16 M4 range.  Hell, he could be one of my ol fat boy mechanic, Sluggo who could lift a 400 pound GE T700 engine off a Blackhawk nearly singlehandedly....

I enjoyed working with the fatboys in the aviation field of the Army......they could laugh at themselves!!!

CAPTalkers..........Take Note!!

[Flying Pig]

That is a pretty famous photo.  Yes, I know in the Marines, people were discharged all the time for being over weight.  We had a Sgt with 8 yrs on who was discharged for being to fat. 

When I was in the Army Reserves, I saw some hideously overweight soldiers and nothing was ever done to them.  Of course, one in particular was an E7 with a 101st Airborne combat patch and the blue Special Forces patch on his current unit sleeve with the "Special Forces" and "Ranger"  tab.  He refused to wear the Reserve unit patch that he was actually a part of.     He earned both in Vietnam and his service stripes that practically touched the bottom of his chevrons.  So nobody was going to tell him anything!  I dont even know what he did.  All I ever saw him do was drink coffee and talk about how weak the new army was.

[tdepp]

That is a pretty famous photo.  Yes, I know in the Marines, people were discharged all the time for being over weight.  We had a Sgt with 8 yrs on who was discharged for being to fat. 

When I was in the Army Reserves, I saw some hideously overweight soldiers and nothing was ever done to them.  Of course, one in particular was an E7 with a 101st Airborne combat patch and the blue Special Forces patch on his current unit sleeve with the "Special Forces" and "Ranger"  tab.  He refused to wear the Reserve unit patch that he was actually a part of.     He earned both in Vietnam and his service stripes that practically touched the bottom of his chevrons.  So nobody was going to tell him anything!  I dont even know what he did.  All I ever saw him do was drink coffee and talk about how weak the new army was.

So, what I'm gathering is that the weight requirements are not universally enforced in the military.  And they are not universally enforced in CAP either.

So, the lawyer asked, why are the weight requirements in place if they're not enforced in the military?  I'm guessing there is some correlation to weight and ability to slog through the battle field but I'm also guessing that there are some "large" individuals who can also do what needs to be done in physically difficult situations. 

But we still have a remaining issue: this appears to be a sticking point to our mommy/daddy, the USAF, re the AF-style uniform.  So, whether they actually enforce the requirements on their folks, they do seem to want to enforce them on CAP.  On the other hand, I doubt there are too many fat fighter pilots either.   

Again, does our current crop of uniforms prevent us from doing what we need to do?  I don't think so.

And this whole uniform debate is making my head swim.  Some times it boils down to what I did in college--sniff the uniform article and say, "Yup, that's clean," put it on, and go to the activity. 

[lordmonar]

People advocating the elimination of the AF style uniform don't think anything about the tradition behind it.  The CAP has a great history and unfortunately our uniform is one of the few things left of that.

If you want a full civi uniform than maybe being a Scout Master is more your speed.

The argument about feeling discriminated against because you don't wear the right uniform is invalid.  A good leader will be a good leader regardless of whether they wear blueDU's or BDU's.  Just make sure they look sharp.  A white aviator shirt is not an excuse to avoid the iron or look like a cave man.  A beard can be a beard and still look professional.  Not to say that non AF uniform wearers are soley to blame for unprofessional appearances, I have seen many blues that have looked absolutely terrible. 

Our uniforms are our organization's identity.  ALL OF THEM.  And regardless of the uniform that's worn the rank is the same, respect should be given to all members of CAP.  If there really is an issue of insubordination there are methods to deal with that in house rather than complaining on line and destroying one of the few traditions we have left.  People are missing the forest for view of the trees.

While I agree that history is important.....and the second class citezen issue is not really that important......the issue in my view is as you said, organisational identity.  Our uniforms identify us......the more uniforms we have the weaker the identity!

That is my issue.

I would love for the USAF to back off on their concerns about the fat and fuzzies.  I would love for CAP to bite the bullet and force out the fat and fuzzies...and we can all go to the USAF unifrom.....but neither one of these will happen.  I don't know why the USAF is so stuck on it....and CAP will fail due to the forcing out so many members to get everyone into compliance.

So......we have to look to a middle solution.  Develope a single uniform that all senior members will wear that satisfies CAP's need to have a recognisable affiliation with the USAF and at the same time satisfies the USAF need to make sure the public and the USAF in general knows that we are NOT USAF officers.

The CSU has the potential of moving in that direction....but HWSNBN screwed the pooch for us on that issue.  The Corporate gray and whites do not satisfy enough people because of the lack of a service coat and lack of quick identity with the USAF.

So...the more I think about it....the more I like the idea of just adding a hat to the corporates and adding the USAF service coat.  The only thing that would need to be developed new would be the standardise the gray pants by color and material.

On the field uniform front....we can stick with the BBDUs, or even the BDUs (once the USAF switches to ABUs)...or even go a third route....go with Gray BDUs. 

GBDU's have two advantage in my eyes.  One it associated the color gray as being the AUXILLARY color.  Gray will look better with the ACU/ABU field gear (as the OD and woodland becomes scares 10 years down the road).  It is readily available.  It is a good balance between a "combat uniform" and the mess we have with the BBDU and the full color patches.

We can use the USAF's sew on subdued rank, use blue on gray for the name tapes and use subdued gray tones for any patches (which we should loose to follow suit with the USAF).

So it is distinctly not a USAF uniform (except in full darkness)...but still give enough of that tactical look some of use want and look enough like the ABUs that people can draw the relationship between CAP and the USAF.

On the Flight suits it is even simpler......if we remove the rank from the shoulders the USAF (as I have been told) would have no problem with us wearing the green flight suit.

We keep the rank on the name tag.

This will allow us to use the surplus market for flight suits....If we go with a distinctive color we would have to pay full price for the Nomex!

Again......history is important.  Everyone wants to be included in the unit and the uniform.  Everyone wants to maintain the identity between CAP and the USAF intact.

We need to stop fighting each other over why this situation came about.....and look to solutions.

[heliodoc]

WOW Pat!!

CAP force out the fat and fuzzies???

HTH do you plan on doing that?  Approaching the General at PAPA 1AF a get a request?

Forcing out the fat and fuzzies in CAP ??.........a KNOWN VOLUNTEER organization?

Really, Pat you gotta lighten up on that thar CAP uniform issue.....the future outcome.....could be one NONE of us would like!!!

[tdepp]

I guess it boils down to this: the USAF is ok with us looking a little bit like them but just not too much like them.    Where that line is at is the issue. 

Reminds me of the line from from the movie Stripes: Russell Ziskey (Harold Ramis):"I don't know what kind of soldier I'm gonna make, but I want you guys to know that if we ever get into really heavy combat... I'll be right behind you guys. Every step of the way." 

Way behind us.   

And re the weight issue in the Military and CAP, there's this classic from Stripes: Dewey Oxburger (John Candy): "Well, my name's Dewey Oxburger. My friends call me Ox. I don't know if you've noticed, but I got a slight weight problem."   

[lordmonar]

So, what I'm gathering is that the weight requirements are not universally enforced in the military.  And they are not universally enforced in CAP either.

So, the lawyer asked, why are the weight requirements in place if they're not enforced in the military?  I'm guessing there is some correlation to weight and ability to slog through the battle field but I'm also guessing that there are some "large" individuals who can also do what needs to be done in physically difficult situations. 

But we still have a remaining issue: this appears to be a sticking point to our mommy/daddy, the USAF, re the AF-style uniform.  So, whether they actually enforce the requirements on their folks, they do seem to want to enforce them on CAP.  On the other hand, I doubt there are too many fat fighter pilots either.   

Again, does our current crop of uniforms prevent us from doing what we need to do?  I don't think so.

And this whole uniform debate is making my head swim.  Some times it boils down to what I did in college--sniff the uniform article and say, "Yup, that's clean," put it on, and go to the activity. 

In the USAF....until very recently....the weight management program and the PT program....were commander run programs.  That means the local commander had a lot of say in how well he was going to hold people to fire.  The commander had the option to not take any adverse action against an individual based on mission requirements and other subjective issue.

So.....you would see a lot of fat people in the USAF simply because the USAF and the Squadron could not afford to loose the guy.  The individual would be on the program.....doing his mandatory PT sessions with a PTL and loggin all his PT times as the program called for....he/she was getting his referral EPRs/OERs as the program calls for....he/she would be held back from promotion/PME/PCS as the program calls for.....but he would not be kicked out because the unit could not afford the hole that would create in the organisation.  (Individuals kicked out are NOT replaced immediately....you would have to wait until that individual would normally be replaced for a new guy to come....and state side that could be 4-5 years!).

Not to mention the cost of training the replacement.  Say a pilot who is overweight (and Yes there are a lot of those too!).  That's cool $1M+ you are pouring down the drain.

Now...the program is supposed to be changing.  It is now a base level function and many of these people slipping through the cracks will be looked at a lot more closely....but the bottom line will still be about mission affect.

And in one of my pet peeves about the USAF's attitude about CAP's fat and fuzzies......they don't force AD Airman who are out of standards into some sort of "fat suit".....why do they do that to CAP?

[tsrup]

While I agree that history is important.....and the second class citezen issue is not really that important......the issue in my view is as you said, organisational identity.  Our uniforms identify us......the more uniforms we have the weaker the identity!

Why would you think that?  the US Navy has more different uniform combinations than we could ever have, but no one fails to identify Naval personnel (okay maybe there are a few confused looks toward Aviation Working Greens). 
We just need to have standard insignia
Use the CSU, but use grey epaulettes.  Try and keep as many insignia items the same across the board.  In the end it makes things more affordable to the member and increases the uniformity even across the the spectrum of uniforms we have.

[lordmonar]

WOW Pat!!

CAP force out the fat and fuzzies???

HTH do you plan on doing that?  Approaching the General at PAPA 1AF a get a request?

Forcing out the fat and fuzzies in CAP ??.........a KNOWN VOLUNTEER organization?

Really, Pat you gotta lighten up on that thar CAP uniform issue.....the future outcome.....could be one NONE of us would like!!!

I don't like it....I don't really want it to happen....I am only pointing out that those two options are the only way we can all get into USAF uniforms.  Either the USAF backs down or CAP steps up.

Now....having said all that.....if the status quo remained.....the world would not come to end and no one will get bent out of shape. 

But as with any good leader....when I point out a problem (CAP has too many uniforms) I offer a solution.  I'm not married to my solution.  I'm not going to quit over uniforms one way or the other.  It is just a solution that IMHO fixes what I perceive as the major issues we have with uniforms.

[Stonewall]

So, what I'm gathering is that the weight requirements are not universally enforced in the military.  And they are not universally enforced in CAP either.

The regs in the military are purely black and white.  If you are overweight, they will give a chance to get fit, lose the weight and try again in, let's say 30 days, up to 6 months.  There are regs in place that I can't quote at this time.  Kicking someone out does not look good for a commnader.  "Colonel Tentpeg, I see you kicked out SrA Snowball for not making weight and failure to pass his PT test."  Sort of shows the command's inability to maintain their troops.

As someone said above, it could be a medical issue and the guy is awaiting a medical review board.  His doctor may have said "stay away from PT for 5 months until you heal".  Well, without PT and an excuse to get out of all things physical, you're going to pack on the weight.

I knew a guy in the Army that couldn't pass his PT test nor could he make weight.  My guess is that he was at least 30 lbs over his maximum allowable weight.  Thing is, they could have kicked him to the curb, but he was one of the few folks qualified to drive a bus.  He stuck around for 2 years driving a bus until his enlistment expired.  They did not allow him to reenlist.

As to the large soldier in Iraq: He needs our thanks, not our derision.

No.  What someone should be doing, preferably the dude's squad leader, is monitoring his food consumption and PTing his butt 3 hours a day.

[tdepp]

^
Patrick:

Thanks for the insights.  As a volunteer organization, we don't want to lose us plus-sized folks because we need all the skills and people power we can get.  And we're not the military and not paid.  And we want people who can do the mission and be trusted.  For that, I don't think size matters.  But as to uniform wear, well, I can see the USAF's point.  I think the AF-style uniform should be available to those who can meet the requirements.  And I think a comparable CSU dress uniform should also be available for us of the round mound of sound frame.

I know these uniform discussions on CAPTalk go back for years and years.   Obviously, the organization struggles with it.  And will continue to struggle with it.  Some of the CAPTalkers have proposed thoughtful solutions.  I would like to see Gen. Courter take into account the memberships' thoughts.