There are a number of threads on creating new badges for CAP, and we do have loads of various badges and patches, along with our various uniforms themselves. Some people find our fully configured BDU's similar to NASCAR driver uniforms (Forgot who said it, wasn't me, I just find the comparison amusing and apt.)

My question is: Going through the entire uniform manual (and various letters as supplemental policy), what would you eliminate?

Not looking for anything to the effect of "I'd get rid of this and then create this", or discussions on whether someone is right or wrong (within reason). How would you reduce the size of our uniform manual?

I wouldn't.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 28, 2007, 07:55:09 PM
My question is: Going through the entire uniform manual (and various letters as supplemental policy), what would you eliminate?

Patches from the BDU and Field Uniform.  White on blue cloth insignia only.

ES patches from bags.

CAP Corporate Uniform or blazer, aviator shirt... Pick one.

CAP Utility Uniform, not quite a bag, not quite a Field Uniform.

Golf shirts.

Pre-solo badge.

Group CC badge.

Beanies and Hawk bling. - Reverse NB decision, and eliminate all together.

National Commanders Commendation. - CCA with star.

National Commanders Unit Citation.

Edited to add: White undershirts with Field Uniform.

Maybe more later.

I know that SrA McLarty has personally volunteered to rewrite the entire CAP uniform manual. 

It would be interesting to see what he has to say about all this.   

Thanks, MIKE exactly what I'm looking for.

If anyone is interested, I'll compile a list and post it in a week or so.

Senior Professional Development awards.  Keep one ribbon and add a numeral or clasps to show development level.

Second my vote for ALL patches off the BDU.  Name, Civil Air Patrol, GT, Wings, and rank.  The wing patch is required by some wings... should be GONE like the fins off a 57 Chevy... GONE!  No squadron stuff, either.  Why do you need that?  So if you get drunk and pass out the cops will know where to take you back to?

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 28, 2007, 10:29:13 PM
Senior Professional Development awards.  Keep one ribbon and add a numeral or clasps to show development level.

Per CAPR 39-3, seniors can opt to wear only the highest professional development award.  Just pointing that out.

Eliminate:

Eliminate Cadet Officer Shoulderboards!  (Ridiculously expensive ($26 a pair), serve no practical purpose over pinning the grade directly onto the epaulet, and are difficult as hell to work with and put on)

Eliminate the All or none ribbon rule for cadets.  All, some, or none was fine the way it was.

Eliminate CAP cutouts on the M-65 field jacket epaulets (Civil Air Patrol is clearly on the front of the jacket; same reasoning as the removal of CAP cutouts from the BDUs)

Eliminate Silver sleeve braid on the TPU service coat

Eliminate CAP cutouts on the cadet blues shirts -- grade on both sides is fine, just like the BDUs.

Eliminate the New CAP Command Shield for flight suits, vehicles, etc.

Eliminate Grade insignia for C/AB, as in the "CAP cutouts" (USAF has no insignia for AB, why do we need insignia for C/AB.  Makes it cheaper and quicker for new recruits to get into a uniform and find out if they like the program)

Eliminate the grade requirements for Cadets First Sergeant.

Eliminate BOTH the emergency services patches.  (They don't relate to anything the USAF uses, they don't demonstrate any particular capability or skill, and they're huge!)

Eliminate the yellow "chicken print" CAP flight suit scarf!

Eliminate berets

Eliminate whistles, colored belts, ranger tabs, shoulder cords on BDUs, ascots with BDUs, orange undershirts,  orange "CAL-Trans" GT uniforms,  and other abuses of the uniform by specifically prohibiting them from being implemented/worn.

Eliminate abiguity as to what Wing Commanders can and cannot authorize for uniform wear.  Specifically say what they can authorized, and follow-up by specifically saying anything else is out.  This hopefully will eliminate other future "Wing King Creations" to the uniform repertoire.

Eliminate Wings being able to require members to wear wing patch.

Eliminate the pre-solo wings.

Agreed with Mike to eliminate White undershirts/t-shirts with the field uniform.  To me it looks super-trashy.  Wear black.

I'm sure I'll think of more.

I think we should be a bit more inline with the Air Force on what they wear on their BDUs.

  Perhaps authorize only:

1) Specialty badge
2) Pilot or aircrew wings

Eliminate everything else on the BDUs unless it conforms to what the Air Force is doing.

  While we are at it, let's get rid of the ultramarine blue, it looks hideous! I'm sure we can come up with something more professional looking.

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate:

Eliminate Cadet Officer Shoulderboards!  (Ridiculously expensive ($26 a pair), serve no practical purpose over pinning the grade directly onto the epaulet, and are difficult as hell to work with and put on)

Eliminate the All or none ribbon rule for cadets.  All, some, or none was fine the way it was.

Eliminate CAP cutouts on the M-65 field jacket epaulets (Civil Air Patrol is clearly on the front of the jacket; same reasoning as the removal of CAP cutouts from the BDUs)

Eliminate Silver sleeve braid on the TPU service coat

Eliminate CAP cutouts on the cadet blues shirts -- grade on both sides is fine, just like the BDUs.

Eliminate the New CAP Command Shield for flight suits, vehicles, etc.

Eliminate Grade insignia for C/AB, as in the "CAP cutouts" (USAF has no insignia for AB, why do we need insignia for C/AB.  Makes it cheaper and quicker for new recruits to get into a uniform and find out if they like the program)

Eliminate the grade requirements for Cadets First Sergeant.

Eliminate BOTH the emergency services patches.  (They don't relate to anything the USAF uses, they don't demonstrate any particular capability or skill, and they're huge!)

Eliminate the yellow "chicken print" CAP flight suit scarf!

Eliminate berets

Eliminate whistles, colored belts, ranger tabs, shoulder cords on BDUs, ascots with BDUs, orange undershirts,  orange "CAL-Trans" GT uniforms,  and other abuses of the uniform by specifically prohibiting them from being implemented/worn.

Eliminate abiguity as to what Wing Commanders can and cannot authorize for uniform wear.  Specifically say what they can authorized, and follow-up by specifically saying anything else is out.  This hopefully will eliminate other future "Wing King Creations" to the uniform repertoire.

Eliminate Wings being able to require members to wear wing patch.

Eliminate the pre-solo wings.

Agreed with Mike to eliminate White undershirts/t-shirts with the field uniform.  To me it looks super-trashy.  Wear black.

I'm sure I'll think of more.

I agree with everything except for the C/AB issue. As it is, the officer without grade uniform is identified by having no grade insignia at all. A 17 year old C/AB cannot be confused with a 19 year old officer without grade. Considering that by eliminating the CAP cutouts on the rest of cadets uniforms and if we eliminate the cutouts from the TPU there will be no reason to make the cutouts anymore, we should come up with some distinctive insignia for officers without grade... perhaps something more in line with what CG Aux assigns to their members... A prop or something? Perhaps go to gray epaulets with nothing but CAP on them. I think those used to be made.

Unit patches are inline with the air force BDU wear traditions and since it's an Air Force style uniform, I see nothing wrong with wearing them and tabs like Honor Guard. However, when we make the switch (and I believe it's almost certain we will one day) to ABU, all patches will be unauthorized anyway.

As far as the navy utilities... I think the new Army/Air Force tan t-shirt should be the one authorized. It is already readily available, will look good against the navy (black and navy looks bad) and will be the proper t-shirt for when we switch to ABU anyway.

Berets should be gone as an activity award. It's nothing but elitist and serves no pupose (does not identify anything important). If someone likes berets, perhaps it should be authorized to ES trained personnel in lieu of the ES patch. At least it will identify those of us who are operationally trained and active, cadet and senior. We can develop a metal flash to be worn similar to the one PJ's wear, but one that's rooted in our CAP history... perhaps an angel with a prop? That way all members will be able to be a part of a truly elite and trained group of CAP personnel, all over the nation.

Quote from: DrJbdm on January 28, 2007, 10:56:47 PM
I think we should be a bit more inline with the Air Force on what they wear on their BDUs.

  Perhaps authorize only:

1) Specialty badge
2) Pilot or aircrew wings

Eliminate everything else on the BDUs unless it conforms to what the Air Force is doing.

I agree, especially the American flag patch on the BDU's.  We are not the auxiliary of the Army. 

Quote from: DrJbdm on January 28, 2007, 10:56:47 PM

While we are at it, let's get rid of the ultramarine blue, it looks hideous! I'm sure we can come up with something more professional looking.

How about these?

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/2477/3542/1600/863019/nametape.jpg

Source: www.cap-sarex.blogspot.com

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate Cadet Officer Shoulderboards!  (Ridiculously expensive ($26 a pair), serve no practical purpose over pinning the grade directly onto the epaulet, and are difficult as hell to work with and put on)

New style enlisted service dress is the only reason I can see for keeping them.  It's a double edged sword.

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate the All or none ribbon rule for cadets.  All, some, or none was fine the way it was.

If you're gonna do it, there needs to be a standard applied to some IMO.  Highest achievement/award ribbon works for me and mirrors the standards for seniors.

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate CAP cutouts on the M-65 field jacket epaulets (Civil Air Patrol is clearly on the front of the jacket; same reasoning as the removal of CAP cutouts from the BDUs)

Ok, but what about SMs without grade and NCOs?

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate Silver sleeve braid on the TPU service coat

And the silver chin strap on the service cap.

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate CAP cutouts on the cadet blues shirts -- grade on both sides is fine, just like the BDUs.

Ok.

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate Grade insignia for C/AB, as in the "CAP cutouts" (USAF has no insignia for AB, why do we need insignia for C/AB.  Makes it cheaper and quicker for new recruits to get into a uniform and find out if they like the program)

This assumes they won't wear service dress as a C/AB?

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate the grade requirements for Cadets First Sergeant.

NON-CONCUR.  I would really like to see more of this actually, for other positions in line with the Leadership Expectations chart.

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate BOTH the emergency services patches.  (They don't relate to anything the USAF uses, they don't demonstrate any particular capability or skill, and they're huge!)

And fugly.

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate whistles, colored belts, ranger tabs, shoulder cords on BDUs, ascots with BDUs, orange undershirts,  orange "CAL-Trans" GT uniforms,  and other abuses of the uniform by specifically prohibiting them from being implemented/worn.

Eliminate abiguity as to what Wing Commanders can and cannot authorize for uniform wear.  Specifically say what they can authorized, and follow-up by specifically saying anything else is out.  This hopefully will eliminate other future "Wing King Creations" to the uniform repertoire.

Eliminate Wings being able to require members to wear wing patch.

Word!

Quote from: Guardrail on January 28, 2007, 11:09:21 PM

Quote from: DrJbdm on January 28, 2007, 10:56:47 PM
I think we should be a bit more inline with the Air Force on what they wear on their BDUs.

  Perhaps authorize only:

1) Specialty badge
2) Pilot or aircrew wings

Eliminate everything else on the BDUs unless it conforms to what the Air Force is doing.

I agree, especially the American flag patch on the BDU's.  We are not the auxiliary of the Army. 

Quote from: DrJbdm on January 28, 2007, 10:56:47 PM

While we are at it, let's get rid of the ultramarine blue, it looks hideous! I'm sure we can come up with something more professional looking.

How about these?

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/2477/3542/1600/863019/nametape.jpg

Source: www.cap-sarex.blogspot.com

Yeah... I think ultramarine lettering on ABU background for tapes would work just great to identify us as CAP. I don't know if CG Aux has issues of identification, but their volunteers wear the same exact tapes as active duty does, it just says U.S.C.G. Auxiliary instead of US Coast Guard on them.

Yeah I like the dark blue color myself. the OD looking ones would work great too if we could get that authorized.

Changing the tape color isn't really eliminating uniform items... Which is the stated purpose of this thread.

I would like to see us eliminate the white/grays as well as the blazer combo. I think it should be the AF style or the TPU. I would keep the grays/golf shirt for those members who cannot or will not meet the grooming standard. Perhaps change the gray pants to khaki, which might look a little better.

Quote from: DrJbdm on January 29, 2007, 12:36:07 AM
I would like to see us eliminate the white/grays as well as the blazer combo. I think it should be the AF style or the TPU. I would keep the grays/golf shirt for those members who cannot or will not meet the grooming standard. Perhaps change the gray pants to khaki, which might look a little better.

Why eliminate the white/grays and the blazer combo?  For those out of grooming and/or height and weight regs, the white/grays and blazer combo are the only way to meet UOD requirements without having to be in an AF uniform.  Example: if the UOD is service dress, those members wear the blazer combo.  If the UOD is mess dress, then it's blazer combo with bow tie and a medal. 

I say get rid of the TPU altogether and keep the gray/golf shirt combos only for those who are not within grooming/height & weight standards.

I do like the idea of changing the grey pants to tan, though I think grey looks better with the blazer.  Maybe only tan pants with the polo shirt? 

Sorry I meant to hit this earlier but had to run. So w/o reading anyone else's...

1) Patches: The multi-color explosion is rediculous, might as well wear a girl scout sash. Take off the flag, wg patch, activity/school patches, anything like CISM/safety, burn those retaded ES patches on all uniforms... JUST tapes & embroidered versions of badges worn in the same position as on Blues. That's it, nothing else, stick your esprit de corps complaints. You're absolutely kidding me if you think people participate at your unit or not cause they're wearing a patch. We need to be building together, not apart into 52 seperate CAPs & certainly not 1500 or whatever seperate & unrelated units. We're eitehr a cohesive organization that looks dresses the part of the unified professionalism we want to display or we're not worth existing.

2) Badges: some of the specs can be combined into related career fields (admin/pers for instance, ops, etc). The CP & AE badges specifically need to fit the mold as an over the name badge. Which brings me to the wear policy. Yes there are four spots on a uniform wear some kind of badge can go, but that doesn't mean any badge can go in any spot. If you got wings those should be worn on top (pick one, mil or CAP, not both). Those two over the name slots are for spec track & operational badges. That's wings, GT, PAO, CP, Comm, ES, etc. The pocket is ONLY for specific duty badges like recruiter, honor guard, etc. The only thing that applies to in CAP is the NEC badge. A re-designed IG badge would be appropriate there, as would a nat/reg staff badge. NB badge needs to be eliminated now that there's a master command badge. Which brings me to over the name side. The ONLY thing that needs to go there is the command badge. Over for current, under for past, that's it. If that means you get a choice of one spec track badge & have to leave some spots empty, that's perfect, and the policy should at least encourage that the one badge you chose there be for the job you're currently assigned to (assuming you have that rating). If we have to redesign anything, for the love of God get rid of the cartoons.

3) Flight suit: get rid of the plastic grade in favor of dark blue sewn on, or at least make that optional. And don't change the command patch you retards.

...that's it on AF-style, now lets take care of corporate-style. Notice I said corporate-STYLE, not uniforms authorized by the CAP corporation, which is exactly what the original meaning of the phrase was.

4) Get rid of the golf shirt. I don't care how comfortable it is I don't care how easy or cheap it is. The purpose of a uniform & the intricate care it requires is not to look good, it is meant to require sacrifice, dillagnce, & vigilants specifically to remind you of you regularly & mechanically of the obligations you've committed to. The golf shirt was never made to be a uniform, it was made to be a novelty item sold by the bookstore. Cut that thing right now before it further corputs us.

5) pick one of either the corporate-style blue/white w/ service coat or gray/white w/ blazer. We'll assume they pick blue there & drop the grooming standard.

6) Drop BBDU & Blue utility jumpsuit (keep blue nomex flt suit). In place of that for field uniform use the same white aviator shirt but with BBDU pants & boots (must blouse pants). That's dramatically simplified (cheaper) and gives a professional appearance while not trying to look like a swat cop. Authorize CG-style blue Goretex parka w/ that combo & optional blue patrol cap or cold weather watch cap.

7) when done, adopt the AFI as the CAP uniform manual w/39-1 as a supplement. That way AF changes are automatic to CAP & 39-1 spells out the distinctive way in which it's executed. That cuts down a massive amount of work for AF in dealing w/ our retarded uniform issues, & streamlines the process for us to stay up to date w/ them. If they want to hold us off on something, all they have to do it add a chapter to the end of the AFI saying XYZ will not apply to CAP or will be executed by CAP in the following way or timeline. Makes everyone's life easier.

Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 01:49:19 AM
Sorry I meant to hit this earlier but had to run. So w/o reading anyone else's...

1) Patches: The multi-color explosion is rediculous, might as well wear a girl scout sash. Take off the flag, wg patch, activity/school patches, anything like CISM/safety, burn those retaded ES patches on all uniforms... JUST tapes & embroidered versions of badges worn in the same position as on Blues. That's it, nothing else, stick your esprit de corps complaints. You're absolutely kidding me if you think people participate at your unit or not cause they're wearing a patch. We need to be building together, not apart into 52 seperate CAPs & certainly not 1500 or whatever seperate & unrelated units. We're eitehr a cohesive organization that looks dresses the part of the unified professionalism we want to display or we're not worth existing.

2) Badges: some of the specs can be combined into related career fields (admin/pers for instance, ops, etc). The CP & AE badges specifically need to fit the mold as an over the name badge. Which brings me to the wear policy. Yes there are four spots on a uniform wear some kind of badge can go, but that doesn't mean any badge can go in any spot. If you got wings those should be worn on top (pick one, mil or CAP, not both). Those two over the name slots are for spec track & operational badges. That's wings, GT, PAO, CP, Comm, ES, etc. The pocket is ONLY for specific duty badges like recruiter, honor guard, etc. The only thing that applies to in CAP is the NEC badge. A re-designed IG badge would be appropriate there, as would a nat/reg staff badge. NB badge needs to be eliminated now that there's a master command badge. Which brings me to over the name side. The ONLY thing that needs to go there is the command badge. Over for current, under for past, that's it. If that means you get a choice of one spec track badge & have to leave some spots empty, that's perfect, and the policy should at least encourage that the one badge you chose there be for the job you're currently assigned to (assuming you have that rating). If we have to redesign anything, for the love of God get rid of the cartoons.

3) Flight suit: get rid of the plastic grade in favor of dark blue sewn on, or at least make that optional. And don't change the command patch you retards.

...that's it on AF-style, now lets take care of corporate-style. Notice I said corporate-STYLE, not uniforms authorized by the CAP corporation, which is exactly what the original meaning of the phrase was.

4) Get rid of the golf shirt. I don't care how comfortable it is I don't care how easy or cheap it is. The purpose of a uniform & the intricate care it requires is not to look good, it is meant to require sacrifice, dillagnce, & vigilants specifically to remind you of you regularly & mechanically of the obligations you've committed to. The golf shirt was never made to be a uniform, it was made to be a novelty item sold by the bookstore. Cut that thing right now before it further corputs us.

5) pick one of either the corporate-style blue/white w/ service coat or gray/white w/ blazer. We'll assume they pick blue there & drop the grooming standard.

6) Drop BBDU & Blue utility jumpsuit (keep blue nomex flt suit). In place of that for field uniform use the same white aviator shirt but with BBDU pants & boots (must blouse pants). That's dramatically simplified (cheaper) and gives a professional appearance while not trying to look like a swat cop. Authorize CG-style blue Goretex parka w/ that combo & optional blue patrol cap or cold weather watch cap.

7) when done, adopt the AFI as the CAP uniform manual w/39-1 as a supplement. That way AF changes are automatic to CAP & 39-1 spells out the distinctive way in which it's executed. That cuts down a massive amount of work for AF in dealing w/ our retarded uniform issues, & streamlines the process for us to stay up to date w/ them. If they want to hold us off on something, all they have to do it add a chapter to the end of the AFI saying XYZ will not apply to CAP or will be executed by CAP in the following way or timeline. Makes everyone's life easier.

Dennis,

Referring to CAP's leaders a "retards" isn't likely to win your proposals any support.

okay, now that I read everyone's, let me second a couple...

Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate:

Eliminate Cadet Officer Shoulderboards!  (Ridiculously expensive ($26 a pair), serve no practical purpose over pinning the grade directly onto the epaulet, and are difficult as hell to work with and put on)

Eliminate the All or none ribbon rule for cadets.  All, some, or none was fine the way it was.

Eliminate CAP cutouts on the M-65 field jacket epaulets (Civil Air Patrol is clearly on the front of the jacket; same reasoning as the removal of CAP cutouts from the BDUs)

Eliminate Silver sleeve braid on the TPU service coat

Eliminate CAP cutouts on the cadet blues shirts -- grade on both sides is fine, just like the BDUs.

Eliminate the New CAP Command Shield for flight suits, vehicles, etc.

Eliminate Grade insignia for C/AB, as in the "CAP cutouts" (USAF has no insignia for AB, why do we need insignia for C/AB.  Makes it cheaper and quicker for new recruits to get into a uniform and find out if they like the program)

Eliminate the grade requirements for Cadets First Sergeant.

Eliminate BOTH the emergency services patches.  (They don't relate to anything the USAF uses, they don't demonstrate any particular capability or skill, and they're huge!)

Eliminate the yellow "chicken print" CAP flight suit scarf!

Eliminate berets

Eliminate whistles, colored belts, ranger tabs, shoulder cords on BDUs, ascots with BDUs, orange undershirts,  orange "CAL-Trans" GT uniforms,  and other abuses of the uniform by specifically prohibiting them from being implemented/worn.

Eliminate abiguity as to what Wing Commanders can and cannot authorize for uniform wear.  Specifically say what they can authorized, and follow-up by specifically saying anything else is out.  This hopefully will eliminate other future "Wing King Creations" to the uniform repertoire.

Eliminate Wings being able to require members to wear wing patch.

Eliminate the pre-solo wings.

Agreed with Mike to eliminate White undershirts/t-shirts with the field uniform.  To me it looks super-trashy.  Wear black.

Okay all of that. Specifically I'm going along w/ the no cutouts items cause I know national CAC is already wroking on getting grade on both sides of blues to match BDUs. Personally I'd ratehr see it go the other way for logistics reasons, but it does look better & absolutely HAS to be consistent between the two.

Also agree that SMWOG has to be indicated. We used to use the sewn on "CAP" on both collars. What's wrong with that, and a good bit cheaper by the way. Don't give me any crap about sewing on for six months either when it's worse for FOs.

And by the way do something about FOs. That's messed up that we screw them over based only on age & yet promote much less qualified individuals to officer grade also based only on age. I'm not saying officers shouldn't be 21 to be effective as officers, but our officers aren't effective anyway so until we fix that we shouldn't be discriminating. If we are going to keep the system then use the old school AF WO insignia that CAP used to use for years & years. Just don't punish kids that have to meet the same standards as everyone else.

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 29, 2007, 01:58:41 AM
Dennis,

Referring to CAP's leaders a "retards" isn't likely to win your proposals any support.

Yeah cause I've always been real fond of stupid decisions or concerned with what those that made them think of poor little me. I know their reasons behind that decision, and all I can say is they are not listening to a lawyer that has any clue on the issue. If you can just have the CAP/CC PM me, I'll give him a number he can call & get some direct congressional guidance once & for all on PCA.

I would by the way like to go to white on an OD or at least dark blue background for BDU items, but I did't mention it cause that was the conditions the thread started under.