Ok everyone, I'm working on a list for my Group Newsletter.
Please help.
Thanks.
Ribbons: wrong order and backwards. Ribbons aren't worn in the order in which you earn them, they are worn in the order listed in CAPM 39-1. (ALL)
Blue grade slides on AF shirt (sm's).
Wrong flight cap - cadets, incl cadet officers, wear the AF enlisted cap with the blue braid, not the officer cap. Senior members (2d Lt and up) wear the AF officer flight cap w/ silver checked braid, not solid silver braid.
1. Civilian Outerwear with USAF uniforms
2. Grade alignment on collar (parallel to outside edge vs perpendicular to front edge)
3. Unauthorized Army/Navy badges on USAF uniforms.
4. Any military badges/ribbons on corporate uniforms
5. BDU style pants with golf shirt
6. Wearing the right nametag (there are so many!) with the right shirt.
All the stuff arajca said.
Quote from: Dragoon on November 29, 2007, 08:06:44 PM
5. BDU style pants with golf shirt
Are you referring to actual camo BDU pants, or gray pants with cargo pockets.
'Cause if they are gray cotton twill with cargo pockets, they are fine.
Proper grooming
Just do a Google Image search for "Civil Air Patrol" and you'll see hundreds of CAP photos. Many of them will be members wearing their uniforms incorrectly. Take your pick. That, or visit squadron websites that have a gallery, you'll find many infractions there as well.
One time, for a uniform class I taught at either SLS or CLC, I did a google search and surfed through many squadron websites and used 50 pictures on a powerpoint presentation showing uniform infractions; it was that easy.
There are still some older threads on Cadetstuff which contain the most common ones, including photos.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2007, 08:48:16 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on November 29, 2007, 08:06:44 PM
5. BDU style pants with golf shirt
Are you referring to actual camo BDU pants, or gray pants with cargo pockets.
'Cause if they are gray cotton twill with cargo pockets, they are fine.
Admittedly cargo pockets aren't specifically excluded. However, can you point me at cotton twill grey BDUs? All I've found are poly/cotton, which would not be authorized. (Yup, I know that's splitting hairs, but so is wearing field pants with a uniform that is specified in 39-1 as the equivalent of short sleeve service dress).
Quote from: Dragoon on November 29, 2007, 09:06:43 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2007, 08:48:16 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on November 29, 2007, 08:06:44 PM
5. BDU style pants with golf shirt
Are you referring to actual camo BDU pants, or gray pants with cargo pockets.
'Cause if they are gray cotton twill with cargo pockets, they are fine.
Admittedly cargo pockets aren't specifically excluded. However, can you point me at cotton twill grey BDUs? All I've found are poly/cotton, which would not be authorized. (Yup, I know that's splitting hairs, but so is wearing field pants with a uniform that is specified in 39-1 as the equivalent of short sleeve service dress).
I've actually seen members wearing bloused >DRESS PANTS< ::) with their golf shirt - and this wasn't even in a field environment.
But cotton twill cargos are pretty common, and I've even seen some members with wool-blend trousers that have cargo pockets.
What I'm referring to would be similar to this:
(http://www.chiefsupply.com/images/products/600/74251_055.jpg)
(http://www.chiefsupply.com/images/products/600/collage-511-tactical-pant.jpg)
These would be compliant as they are 100% cotton, however, I don't see any reason why a poly/cotton tactical pant would not be acceptable, "twill" is simply the reference to a weave pattern. I don't see anything in the regs which dictate the actual material as being 100% cotton.
And I also don't see the golf shirt being analogous to corporate service dress - that's the aviator whites. The golf shirt is a casual work uniform, and as been point out on other threads, the (relatively recent) change to the pant reg makes it a pretty good field uniform, especially for base ops.
Wearing crew neck T-shirts with short sleeve AF service uniform. Should be V-neck or something similar.
Just so everyone is on the same page here is a definition of Twill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twill)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/K%C3%B6perbindung_Fischgrat.jpeg/200px-K%C3%B6perbindung_Fischgrat.jpeg)
I think many of the grey slacks worn with corporate uniforms wont be twill
Crew neck shirts with short sleeve shirt.
Unauthorized tee shirts under BDU shirt.
Calling a hat/cap a 'cover'
Calling the BDU shirt/jacket a 'blouse'
Not knowing order of ribbons
Golf shirt with woodland BDU pants.
White aviators shirt with blue pants with gray rank and nameplate.
Quote from: JThemann on November 29, 2007, 11:58:10 PM
Calling the BDU shirt/jacket a 'blouse'
That's not a uniform infraction, that's called
using a different term to describe something.
On the label of said uniform item, it's called a "Coat".
Dictionary.com says this about a "blouse"..
Quote
2. a single-breasted, semifitted military jacket.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2007, 12:17:08 AM
Quote from: JThemann on November 29, 2007, 11:58:10 PM
Calling the BDU shirt/jacket a 'blouse'
That's not a uniform infraction, that's called using a different term to describe something.
On the label of said uniform item, it's called a "Coat".
Dictionary.com says this about a "blouse"..
Quote
2. a single-breasted, semifitted military jacket.
Exactly, Take someone that called it that for 10-20 years in the Marine Corps and it's a hard habit to break....heck I don't call it a hat at work! I even catch myself calling my ball caps covers. It's a habit.
One that I've been trying to break lately is the whole BDUs thing. In the Marine Corps we either called them Utes (Utilities) or Cammies. Gotta keep it simple for us Jarheads!
Model Rocketry patch worn on the wrong (left) pocket.
Organizational/Unit patch worn on right sleeve of flight suit/jacket and utility uniform.
Incorrect or unauthorized ASNP.
M-65 Field Jackets worn sans insignia.
Usually younger male seniors who need to trim their sideburns. i.e former cadets.
SMs without grade wearing officer flight caps, plain gray epaulet sleeves and sleeve braid.
Females with hair management issues.
Overweight members wearing AF style uniforms.
Members not reading the uniform manual.
Quote from: JThemann on November 29, 2007, 11:58:10 PM
Crew neck shirts with short sleeve shirt.
I can so.
Just have to be wearing a tie, so it doesn't show. . . .
Quote from: isuhawkeye on November 29, 2007, 11:49:23 PM
I think many of the grey slacks worn with corporate uniforms wont be twill
They don't >have< to be cotton twill, but they can be - they can also be the same pants worn with the aviator whites, which is what most members do.
The cotton twill just basically gives us the Dockers option.
Quote from: MIKE on November 30, 2007, 12:59:02 AM
Model Rocketry patch worn on the wrong (left) pocket.
Organizational/Unit patch worn on right sleeve of flight suit/jacket and utility uniform.
Incorrect or unauthorized ASNP.
M-65 Field Jackets worn sans insignia.
Usually younger male seniors who need to trim their sideburns. i.e former cadets.
SMs without grade wearing officer flight caps, plain gray epaulet sleeves and sleeve braid.
Females with hair management issues.
Overweight members wearing AF style uniforms.
I'll concede most of that list. However, the issue of unit insignia on flightsuits needs to be clarified.
Presently, it says that the right shoulder of green flightsuits is for an "optional shoulder patch", and says "Member may choose one of the authorized patches for the right shoulder, may be wing, region or National shoulder patch." You have to do some digging as what the authorized patches are.
As far as flightsuits go, I would align with Air Force practice, and go with unit on right shoulder, and optional patches on the left, with a reference as to the table which actually shows what the optional patches are. Right now, the only way to know which table to look into is to find the page on the blue corporate flightsuit.
Also, the entire writeup on green flightsuits needs to be cleaned up. Besides the optional patch issue, there is also the issue of the ES patch on the green flightsuit. Presently, it says it may be worn in the same position as the command patch. For the blue flightsuit, it says may be worn on the
pocket.
Had the argument with my commander that he should wear it on the pocket of the green suit, but he told me that it said on "the right breast", the same as the command patch. The thing is he's right. It may not be in the intended spirit, but he is following the letter of the manual.
Another disparity: blue flightsuit may have a region patch in place of the command patch. Neither the jumpsuit or sage suit have this option. It's one more thing that's less uniform. Region patches are organizational insignia. There is no reason a region staff member shouldn't wear their unit insignia the same place as everyone else.
Another thing I keep seeing nowadays that is seriuosly wrong is people wearing the flag on the right shoulder of the flightsuit, and putting wing patches on the left.
some of the above shoudl get added to Lt. Col. White's uniform committee thread, they are valid issues with current regs and guidelines.
With regards to the right shoulder, many wings have also authorized unit insignia as well.
Maybe I should cut and paste into his thread.
You're also to use ideas from this, though you will notice its is woefully out of date.
Playing "spot the problem" gets them in the mood to be looking for infractions as a matter of course.
http://group22.net/files/presentations/il245_uniform_2004_updated_10_feb_2004.ppt
I did this two times in a row at conferences and it was well received in the spirit it was intended. You'll notice I fogged the faces of some people.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2007, 02:31:56 AM
You're also to use ideas from this, though you will notice its is woefully out of date.
Playing "spot the problem" gets them in the mood to be looking for infractions as a matter of course.
http://group22.net/files/presentations/il245_uniform_2004_updated_10_feb_2004.ppt
I did this two times in a row at conferences and it was well received in the spirit it was intended. You'll notice I fogged the faces of some people.
I tried to look at the power point but it needs a password.
Quote from: SStradley on November 30, 2007, 03:08:39 AMI tried to look at the power point but it needs a password.
Only to edit the presentation. Click 'Read Only' and it'll work fine.
Try pressing read only. Eclipse- is there anyway we can save a copy of it? I could view it, but not save it!!
Quote from: Snake Doctor on November 29, 2007, 07:55:51 PM
Ok everyone, I'm working on a list for my Group Newsletter.
Please help.
Thanks.
Could you send me a copy of said article so I can print it in my Weekly Squadron Newsletter? All credit will be given.
You should be able to right click the above link and "save as", if that doesn't work, go
here: http://group22.net/files
and do the save-as from there.
It has a password on it because I didn't want anyone chaning things and leaving my name on it - I would provide it to you guys, but to my embarrassment we don't know what it is, and the only copies we have are locked. :'(
As I said, the basic form is still pretty good, and a lot of the data is still correct, but its also pre a LOT of changes and so it woefully out of date.
If I come up with it, I'll PM you.
The other thing I am noticing as I reiview this for the first time in a couple of years, is several mistakes, or incorrect nomenclature.
(i.e. references to class "A/B", wearing a hat with mess dress, etc.).
I'm hoping to update this for a conference in the Spring, and all that will be fixed.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2007, 08:58:44 PM
There are still some older threads on Cadetstuff which contain the most common ones, including photos.
Part I: http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=1067
Part II: http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=5236
Part III: http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=6059
Like any CAP uniform thread, things often get out of hand. If you look through these threads, you'll find a lot dead links to pictures, but with like 100 pages, you're bound to find as many pictures as you'll need for your class. Some pages are just responses to dumb arguments, others "quote" other pictures time and time again. But it does make for an interesting read.
Going back to the original question, I have two common infractions I'd like to point out.
1. Lots and lots of people, mostly cadets, tend to wear some of their uniform before it's complete. Time and time again, even in CAP News and the Volunteer, you'll see people in BDUs missing nametapes, rank or patches.
2. Wearing things people shouldn't, like berets. Usually for one reason only, because they think they look cool.
1) Boots tucked instead of bloused.
2) " Ranger Rolled" patrol caps
3) Aerosmith black T-shirts under BDU's
4) Sleeves rolled 4 inches above elbows so cadets can show off their 19 inch guns...
5) Obese senior members wearing AF style uniforms that look like sausage casings....
6) State Military reserve, salvation Army, or ACA uniforms worn to CAP activities.
7) Queer eye for the straight guy-inspired multi-color squadron caps.
8) Is that a pledge pin on your uniform?!!!
Major Lord
Disabled smileys -MIKE
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2007, 04:19:21 AM
2. Wearing things people shouldn't, like berets. Usually for one reason only, because they think they look cool.
Heck yeah! Can't beat it!
(http://photos.delawarewing.org/albums/oct2dover/IMG_1409.sized.jpg)
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
6) State Military reserve, salvation Army, or ACA uniforms worn to CAP activities.
ACA? What's that?
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2007, 05:42:37 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2007, 04:19:21 AM
2. Wearing things people shouldn't, like berets. Usually for one reason only, because they think they look cool.
Heck yeah! Can't beat it!
(http://photos.delawarewing.org/albums/oct2dover/IMG_1409.sized.jpg)
Say it isn't so. Please tell me you found some random person at the grocery store and asked her to put on a uniform & beret for a funny picture.
I'm going to make the following remark as a sort of Public Service Announcement, please don't get offended by any supposed tone you may find in it. I would be remiss if I did not mention it and you would likewise be remiss not to consider it.
Let's not start the "unbecoming" remarks and posts of photos. As a Public Affairs Officer let me say that these "public displays of ridicule" and "making sport of" only servce to harm CAP's image by collecting countless examples of "wrongs" in one place. Also, making fun of fellow CAP officers and Cadets without correction of the issue (and without their knowledge) may well be an integrity issue.
So, having said that...just consider that when posting such things here or anywhere on the web.
Quote from: JCW0312 on November 30, 2007, 05:58:35 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
6) State Military reserve, salvation Army, or ACA uniforms worn to CAP activities.
ACA? What's that?
American Cadet Alliance: www.militarycadets.org
QuoteFounded in 1909, the ACA holds the distinction of being the oldest and longest-serving Cadet organization in the United States. Veterans of the Corps of Cadets include senior military officers, public officials and business leaders. All members of the American Cadet Alliance, past and present, have the common bond of pride in their country and a strong belief in its founding principles
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2007, 09:29:13 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on November 29, 2007, 09:06:43 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2007, 08:48:16 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on November 29, 2007, 08:06:44 PM
5. BDU style pants with golf shirt
Are you referring to actual camo BDU pants, or gray pants with cargo pockets.
'Cause if they are gray cotton twill with cargo pockets, they are fine.
Admittedly cargo pockets aren't specifically excluded. However, can you point me at cotton twill grey BDUs? All I've found are poly/cotton, which would not be authorized. (Yup, I know that's splitting hairs, but so is wearing field pants with a uniform that is specified in 39-1 as the equivalent of short sleeve service dress).
I've actually seen members wearing bloused >DRESS PANTS< ::) with their golf shirt - and this wasn't even in a field environment.
But cotton twill cargos are pretty common, and I've even seen some members with wool-blend trousers that have cargo pockets.
What I'm referring to would be similar to this:
(http://www.chiefsupply.com/images/products/600/74251_055.jpg)
(http://www.chiefsupply.com/images/products/600/collage-511-tactical-pant.jpg)
These would be compliant as they are 100% cotton, however, I don't see any reason why a poly/cotton tactical pant would not be acceptable, "twill" is simply the reference to a weave pattern. I don't see anything in the regs which dictate the actual material as being 100% cotton.
And I also don't see the golf shirt being analogous to corporate service dress - that's the aviator whites. The golf shirt is a casual work uniform, and as been point out on other threads, the (relatively recent) change to the pant reg makes it a pretty good field uniform, especially for base ops.
Yup, those would meet the letter of the law. Gray BDU pants would not.
And while I completely agree with you on the golf shirt's use for light work duty, that's not what 39-1 says. Whether we agree or not, it's the equivalent of short sleeve service dress.
Quote from: Dragoon on November 30, 2007, 01:59:25 PM
And while I completely agree with you on the golf shirt's use for light work duty, that's not what 39-1 says. Whether we agree or not, it's the equivalent of short sleeve service dress.
Can you cite on that? I can't find anything that really defines what the golf shirt "is".
I was recently at a large USAF convention. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of USAF officers and enlisted blokes were there. Probably every USAF General that was stateside. There were about 5-6 CAP members, all in dress blues.
One looked like they slept in their uniform.
One was clearly overweight for wearing the uniform.
One was wearing their nametag on the wrong side.
Thus, I will always be a proponent for CAP dumping USAF-style uniforms...
Remember the PAO on the Fosset mission? She showed up on CNN with wrong patches, and big hoop earrings on with her flight suit. I am afraid Major Carrales, that she has forever usurped PAO's of any moral authority on this issue! I just have one question on the Major with the Beret: WTF?
Major Lord
There are two options:
1. Bring the problem to light, even if it hurts someone's feelings, so others who see this will think twice before making the same mistake. Thus fixing the problem before it occurs.
2. Ignore it and it will go away.
While #2 would be awesome if it worked, it won't work.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 30, 2007, 01:08:45 PM
Quote from: JCW0312 on November 30, 2007, 05:58:35 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
6) State Military reserve, salvation Army, or ACA uniforms worn to CAP activities.
ACA? What's that?
American Cadet Alliance: www.militarycadets.org
QuoteFounded in 1909, the ACA holds the distinction of being the oldest and longest-serving Cadet organization in the United States. Veterans of the Corps of Cadets include senior military officers, public officials and business leaders. All members of the American Cadet Alliance, past and present, have the common bond of pride in their country and a strong belief in its founding principles
Ahh. Thanks.
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
6) State Military reserve, salvation Army, or ACA uniforms worn to CAP activities.
May I assume that you are referring to "dual-status" CAP members who choose to wear one of their other uniforms while doing their CAP duties?
Cuz if I am using a Salvation Army member as visiting clergy for my ML program, I'm not sure I would be comfortable telling them not to wear their uniform.
Quote
7) Queer eye for the straight guy-inspired multi-color squadron caps.
Hmmmm. We currently give commanders discretion in this area. Is there some reason that we should further restrict a commander's discretion if she/he feels that colored BB-style hats are necessary?
I'd hate to second-guess a commander simply because I disagree with her/his discretionary choices.
it's a hard enough job as it is.
Quote from: Ned on November 30, 2007, 07:20:39 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
6) State Military reserve, salvation Army, or ACA uniforms worn to CAP activities.
May I assume that you are referring to "dual-status" CAP members who choose to wear one of their other uniforms while doing their CAP duties?
Cuz if I am using a Salvation Army member as visiting clergy for my ML program, I'm not sure I would be comfortable telling them not to wear their uniform.
I would be and do.
The line must be drawn - if this is a situation where, as you said, on the odd occasion a member participates in an activity and is specifically representing a different organization (i.e. RealMiliatary®, Police, ARC, whatever), that's fine, but their participation would be limited to that specified activity until they change.
On the other hand, if we're talking about a member who insists on wearing some other services uniform out of a misguided idea that it is "cooler", etc., no. Please change.
Reply to Eclipse: I downloaded the file but Powerpoint says that it cannot open "a file of this type," even though it has the .ppt extension. Any ideas?
Goin' PM on this.
BTW - I have the password now if anyone wants to use ours as a basis for theirs, just PM me...
Quote from: jkalemis on November 30, 2007, 03:02:59 PM
I was recently at a large USAF convention. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of USAF officers and enlisted blokes were there. Probably every USAF General that was stateside. There were about 5-6 CAP members, all in dress blues.
One looked like they slept in their uniform.
One was clearly overweight for wearing the uniform.
One was wearing their nametag on the wrong side.
Thus, I will always be a proponent for CAP dumping USAF-style uniforms...
Having worn that uniform for ten years active duty and in CAP for nine, I have some issues with your proposal of "dumping" Air Force uniforms.
Eliminating a uniform because of the few bad apples that get caught wearing it with when they shouldn't isn't punishing the person violating the regs, it's punishing those that make a point of meeting the standards to wear it.
EDIT: personal attacks snipped out. Knock it off. TA
Quote from: Ned on November 30, 2007, 07:20:39 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
6) State Military reserve, salvation Army, or ACA uniforms worn to CAP activities.
May I assume that you are referring to "dual-status" CAP members who choose to wear one of their other uniforms while doing their CAP duties?
You may so assume.
Cuz if I am using a Salvation Army member as visiting clergy for my ML program, I'm not sure I would be comfortable telling them not to wear their uniform.
As would I. My concern is with CAP members who wear any other uniform BUT a CAP uniform to meetings.
Quote
7) Queer eye for the straight guy-inspired multi-color squadron caps.
Hmmmm. We currently give commanders discretion in this area. Is there some reason that we should further restrict a commander's discretion if she/he feels that colored BB-style hats are necessary?
I'd hate to second-guess a commander simply because I disagree with her/his discretionary choices.
Presumably a commander authorized the female Major shown in the above photos to wear a beret. ( She is also, to put it charitably, a little out of height/weight regs, but the only way to know for sure is to saw them in half and count their rings....wait...that's trees....never mind) I have no problem with a simple, single colored BB cap. I have seen multiple color caps that are about as appropriate as a Wisconsin cheese-head hat for wear with the uniform. I think we should look to the Air Force for guidance in the selection of caps. I have no agenda to restrict the discretion of Squadron Commanders. ( My 21 year old son is my Squadron Commander, so I may have some bias in this regard)
it's a hard enough job as it is.
Indeed!
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 01, 2007, 02:12:22 AM
Quote from: jkalemis on November 30, 2007, 03:02:59 PM
I was recently at a large USAF convention. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of USAF officers and enlisted blokes were there. Probably every USAF General that was stateside. There were about 5-6 CAP members, all in dress blues.
One looked like they slept in their uniform.
One was clearly overweight for wearing the uniform.
One was wearing their nametag on the wrong side.
Thus, I will always be a proponent for CAP dumping USAF-style uniforms...
Having worn that uniform for ten years active duty and in CAP for nine, I have some issues with your proposal of "dumping" Air Force uniforms.
Eliminating a uniform because of the few bad apples that get caught wearing it with when they shouldn't isn't punishing the person violating the regs, it's punishing those that make a point of meeting the standards to wear it.
EDIT: personal attacks snipped out. Knock it off. TA
Then I'll put it another way.
Correct those that violate pubs. Don't propose throwing out uniforms, policies or practices
because people are violating them. That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 01, 2007, 10:18:37 PM
Then I'll put it another way. Correct those that violate pubs. Don't propose throwing out uniforms, policies or practices because people are violating them. That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
No, that is throwing out the baby, but keeping the bathwater.
Quote from: RogueLeader on December 02, 2007, 02:34:42 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 01, 2007, 10:18:37 PM
Then I'll put it another way. Correct those that violate pubs. Don't propose throwing out uniforms, policies or practices because people are violating them. That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
No, that is throwing out the baby, but keeping the bathwater.
I see your point.
What I saw tonight in one place: ???
White shirt-gray pants combo with blue epaulets.
White shirt-gray pants combo with black tie.
Blue blazer combo but with black blazer.
Two young officers/ former cadets with folding tactical knives clipped to their blues pants pockets.
All of the above received awards for various things, accepted one for someone else, or was helping present them.
Quote from: Dad2-4 on December 02, 2007, 02:56:13 AM
What I saw tonight in one place: ???
White shirt-gray pants combo with blue epaulets.
White shirt-gray pants combo with black tie.
Blue blazer combo but with black blazer.
Two young officers/ former cadets with folding tactical knives clipped to their blues pants pockets.
All of the above received awards for various things, accepted one for someone else, or was helping present them.
wow
You know what I think is rather ironic?
You have two people standing next to each other wearing the same uniform, but one is wearing something different than the other one and neither of them have the sense to say..."Why's yours look different than mine?"
From my days in, I biggest infractions were poor grooming :P and obese members wearing(or rather squeezing) into the AF style uniform. Nothing like the sound of buttons flying through the air at high velocity! lol
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2007, 05:42:37 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2007, 04:19:21 AM
2. Wearing things people shouldn't, like berets. Usually for one reason only, because they think they look cool.
Heck yeah! Can't beat it!
Image removed to protect the innocent...
Did someone order a pizza?
What with this beret thing...
The Monica Lewinsky look went out when [redacted by admin] Clinton left office. >:D
--Edited by Pylon for content
Quote from: Smokey on December 02, 2007, 06:02:15 PM
What with this beret thing...
The Monica Lewinsky look went out when [redacted by admin] Clinton left office. >:D
--Edited by Pylon for content
William Jefferson Clinton, also known as William "Bill" Jefferson Clinton...naughty!!!
Quote from: jkalemis on November 30, 2007, 03:02:59 PM
I was recently at a large USAF convention. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of USAF officers and enlisted blokes were there. Probably every USAF General that was stateside. There were about 5-6 CAP members, all in dress blues.
One looked like they slept in their uniform.
One was clearly overweight for wearing the uniform.
One was wearing their nametag on the wrong side.
Thus, I will always be a proponent for CAP dumping USAF-style uniforms...
Thus, I will always be a proponent for enforcing the proper wear of all uniforms...
If someone looks like crap in an AF uniform, they're not going to magically look professional in a corporate one.
good point Jason.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2007, 06:43:08 PM
There are two options:
1. Bring the problem to light, even if it hurts someone's feelings, so others who see this will think twice before making the same mistake. Thus fixing the problem before it occurs.
2. Ignore it and it will go away.
While #2 would be awesome if it worked, it won't work.
So you are saying it is correct to lambast fellow CAP officers and cadets in an online setting and exposing, not only them, but yourself to ridicule (since ideally if this occued in your unit or nearby you were remiss in correcting it) is the better policy?
Here's the real answer...
"Praise in Public, Condemn in Private."
If not, any that post pictures to open us all to ridicule are more a part of the PROBLEM than the SOLUTION.
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 03, 2007, 12:42:09 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2007, 06:43:08 PM
There are two options:
1. Bring the problem to light, even if it hurts someone's feelings, so others who see this will think twice before making the same mistake. Thus fixing the problem before it occurs.
2. Ignore it and it will go away.
While #2 would be awesome if it worked, it won't work.
So you are saying it is correct to lambast fellow CAP officers and cadets in an online setting and exposing, not only them, but yourself to ridicule (since ideally if this occued in your unit or nearby you were remiss in correcting it) is the better policy?
Here's the real answer...
"Praise in Public, Condemn in Private."
If not, any that post pictures to open us all to ridicule are more a part of the PROBLEM than the SOLUTION.
I'm kinda on the fence with this one because sloppy uniforms and gross, negligent uniform violations bug the hell out of me. It makes the rest of us look like slugs, and it's so easy to go look in the book and see how it's supposed to be done.
Every one of us has to get dressed, look in the mirror, and say "D@mn, I look good in this". If you're comfortable enough to do that and then go out in public, you've determined that you're ok with the impression you're throwing out there.
Each one of us has a responsibility to present the best image that we can when we wear a uniform and if you don't hold up your end of the deal, or don't care to, then somebody's going to call you on it one way or another. And I believe that we should.
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 03, 2007, 12:42:09 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2007, 06:43:08 PM
There are two options:
1. Bring the problem to light, even if it hurts someone's feelings, so others who see this will think twice before making the same mistake. Thus fixing the problem before it occurs.
2. Ignore it and it will go away.
While #2 would be awesome if it worked, it won't work.
So you are saying it is correct to lambast fellow CAP officers and cadets in an online setting and exposing, not only them, but yourself to ridicule (since ideally if this occued in your unit or nearby you were remiss in correcting it) is the better policy?
It wouldn't happen under my supervision or command. So it's a non-issue.
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 03, 2007, 12:42:09 AM
Here's the real answer...
"Praise in Public, Condemn in Private."
If not, any that post pictures to open us all to ridicule are more a part of the PROBLEM than the SOLUTION.
I can't control what some goofball in another region is doing. If someone in the proximity of where that picture was taken, or even the photographer didn't have the nuggets to address this major violation to 39-1, then showing the picture on the internet is the least of our problems.
Quote from: Stonewall on December 03, 2007, 01:26:57 AM
I can't control what some goofball in another region is doing. If someone in the proximity of where that picture was taken, or even the photographer didn't have the nuggets to address this major violation to 39-1, then showing the picture on the internet is the least of our problems.
How then does disgraceful commentary on the internet correct any of that? From whence came that pic?
These seem to be from the Delaware Wing, anyone care to explain and correct this for us? Seems like it would have been better policy to PM someone from the Delaware Wing and have he practice addressed instead of posting an Image and having people show just how unbecoming they could be.
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
1) Boots tucked instead of bloused.
2) " Ranger Rolled" patrol caps
3) Aerosmith black T-shirts under BDU's
4) Sleeves rolled 4 inches above elbows so cadets can show off their 19 inch guns...
5) Obese senior members wearing AF style uniforms that look like sausage casings....
6) State Military reserve, salvation Army, or ACA uniforms worn to CAP activities.
7) Queer eye for the straight guy-inspired multi-color squadron caps.
8) Is that a pledge pin on your uniform?!!!
Major Lord
Disabled smileys -MIKE
I believe the ranger rolled patrol caps is unit choice
Its not just the senior members that have the obesity problem, I have seen plenty of cadets
Quote from: Fiddes_CAP-065 on December 03, 2007, 02:03:24 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
1) Boots tucked instead of bloused.
2) " Ranger Rolled" patrol caps
3) Aerosmith black T-shirts under BDU's
4) Sleeves rolled 4 inches above elbows so cadets can show off their 19 inch guns...
5) Obese senior members wearing AF style uniforms that look like sausage casings....
6) State Military reserve, salvation Army, or ACA uniforms worn to CAP activities.
7) Queer eye for the straight guy-inspired multi-color squadron caps.
8) Is that a pledge pin on your uniform?!!!
Major Lord
Disabled smileys -MIKE
I believe the ranger rolled patrol caps is unit choice
Its not just the senior members that have the obesity problem, I have seen plenty of cadets
The 'ranger roll' is never, ever okay.
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 03, 2007, 02:01:15 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on December 03, 2007, 01:26:57 AM
I can't control what some goofball in another region is doing. If someone in the proximity of where that picture was taken, or even the photographer didn't have the nuggets to address this major violation to 39-1, then showing the picture on the internet is the least of our problems.
How then does disgraceful commentary on the internet correct any of that? From whence came that pic?
These seem to be from the Delaware Wing, anyone care to explain and correct this for us? Seems like it would have been better policy to PM someone from the Delaware Wing and have he practice addressed instead of posting an Image and having people show just how unbecoming they could be.
I didn't see any disgraceful commentary, just a reference posted as a "what not to do" because of the uniform violations. The person wearing that uniform obviously considered it to be presentable in public, and as a result lost all "expectation of privacy", as they say.
With few exceptions, you wouldn't find anyone in the RM wearing a RM uniform like that without getting an adjustment.
Yeah, some of those "incorrect uniform pic" threads can get pretty out of line. Embarrassing, even. But they served to be a huge benefit to my professional development as a cadet.
The squadron I was a member of WIWAC wasn't run too well. The instruction I received from the cadet staff on proper uniform wear came not in the form of classroom instruction, but in the form of yelling at me for failing to meet the standards during weekly uniform inspections when they had not taught me the standards to begin with.
I joined during the period where the only CAPM 39-1 sent in the new cadet packet was a few pages of pics stapled together. I learned how to wear my uniform by seeing people pick apart the uniforms in those pics. And then I learned where to find 39-1 online, and how to look up the answers for myself in the regs.
As I progressed, those pics served as a great tool to help me prepare myself for inspecting other cadets' uniforms. I'd look at the pics and see what I could find wrong, and then read the posts to see what infractions I'd missed.
They would have been incredibly helpful for bringing myself up to speed on all the crazy uniform changes that took place while I was away when I came back from college for the summers of 2006 and 2007, too.
Yeah, they can turn kinda nasty sometimes. But just like everything else about these discussion forums, as long as people keep things professional, they have the potential to be a pretty dagon sweet and useful training tool.
Quote from: jaybird512 on December 03, 2007, 02:25:01 AM
I didn't see any disgraceful commentary, just a reference posted as a "what not to do" because of the uniform violations. The person wearing that uniform obviously considered it to be presentable in public, and as a result lost all "expectation of privacy", as they say.
My original comments were warning against such commentary. It was a preemptive strike. It is, however, strange that folks seem to be keen on defending the practice of "dog piling" on uniform violations than taking the steps to correct them.
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 03, 2007, 02:28:07 AM
Quote from: jaybird512 on December 03, 2007, 02:25:01 AM
I didn't see any disgraceful commentary, just a reference posted as a "what not to do" because of the uniform violations. The person wearing that uniform obviously considered it to be presentable in public, and as a result lost all "expectation of privacy", as they say.
My original comments were warning against such commentary. It was a preemptive strike. It is, however, strange that folks seem to be keen on defending the practice of "dog piling" on uniform violations than taking the steps to correct them.
Well we've been pretty civilized about it. As you said, no one has dog piled yet and even though the potential is there, we've merely pointed it out.
Stonewall covered the correction steps earlier by saying that would never happen under his command and that's the way all commanders, or the senior officer present there, should be.
I am a Deputy Commander for seniors here and just put on a mini-SLS for our squadron last tuesday night. I prepared a power point to go over some of the things that needed brushing up on from uniforms, to customs and courtesies, to proper signatures and abbreviations in emails. Our commander saw the issues and took steps to correct them.
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 03, 2007, 02:28:07 AM
Quote from: jaybird512 on December 03, 2007, 02:25:01 AM
I didn't see any disgraceful commentary, just a reference posted as a "what not to do" because of the uniform violations. The person wearing that uniform obviously considered it to be presentable in public, and as a result lost all "expectation of privacy", as they say.
My original comments were warning against such commentary. It was a preemptive strike. It is, however, strange that folks seem to be keen on defending the practice of "dog piling" on uniform violations than taking the steps to correct them.
Not that I advocate "dog-piling", but what do you do when someone has been advised to wear appropriate uniform, and
doesn't? Where do you go from there? Sometimes the only option left is positive peer pressure. Many people will straighten up if they know they're not taken seriously.
Some of the problems we have are people that willfully violate the pubs, and just don't care. They like to think that they impress people with their uniforms, when a lot of times they're just posers. The posers will continue with their behaviour even after you talk to them. Sometimes other avenues must be taken.
I commanded an encampment where one class was on the wearing of the uniform. The Instructor introduced me as Commander and I welcomed the cadets (in full view of all cadets in the room). Then I wlked down and talked to a few cadets scattered around the room and left. The instructor then asked the cadets to get out pencils and paper. After they did. He announced "The Commander had 12 things wrong with his uniform list them".
Amazing 75% said my shoes weren't shined (they were) but didn't notice the white socks. After they finished I came back and ran the class and explained the 12 things wrong were things I'd witnessed at that encampment on cadet uniform errors. From that day on you would have to search real hard to find a cadet or senior with a uniform infraction. The cadets learned from SEEING the uniform errors and thus could understand the correct wearing of the uniform. This became a standard class at all encampments I commanded (back in the 60's and 70's)
^ I never cared for those "whats wrong with my uniform classes". Most of those Cadets are nervous just being there.....the others are not even paying attention since the Commander walked in the room.
When someone asks "whats wrong with my uniform?", or what is wrong with this persons uniform?"......the correct response should always be THE PERSON WEARING IT! :P
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 03, 2007, 02:51:55 AM
Not that I advocate "dog-piling", but what do you do when someone has been advised to wear appropriate uniform, and doesn't? Where do you go from there? Sometimes the only option left is positive peer pressure. Many people will straighten up if they know they're not taken seriously.
Agreed, however, posting a pic up here without the knowledge of the person in the pic and making comments about it; then adding more such pics that opening the door for some of the worst comments I've read on these forums (hit the CADET STUFF links to read a few of them) does little to remedy this since the peer pressure you mention is not getting to the person in the pic.
TO EVERYONE:
So, who's going to e-mail the Delaware Wing WEB MASTER and get these practice of wearing berets addressed. Don't tell me it has to be me? How about the original person who posted it?
Quote from: BillB on December 03, 2007, 03:09:07 AM
I commanded an encampment where one class was on the wearing of the uniform. The Instructor introduced me as Commander and I welcomed the cadets (in full view of all cadets in the room). Then I wlked down and talked to a few cadets scattered around the room and left. The instructor then asked the cadets to get out pencils and paper. After they did. He announced "The Commander had 12 things wrong with his uniform list them".
Amazing 75% said my shoes weren't shined (they were) but didn't notice the white socks. After they finished I came back and ran the class and explained the 12 things wrong were things I'd witnessed at that encampment on cadet uniform errors. From that day on you would have to search real hard to find a cadet or senior with a uniform infraction. The cadets learned from SEEING the uniform errors and thus could understand the correct wearing of the uniform. This became a standard class at all encampments I commanded (back in the 60's and 70's)
A very effective method, when we are in a classroom or encampment envrionment. However, on the WEB, it serves little purpose. I've seen the sort of comments that have got threads locked. That is a practice we do not need here at CAPTALK.
stop yelling.
Quote from: Fiddes_CAP-065 on December 03, 2007, 02:03:24 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
1) Boots tucked instead of bloused.
2) " Ranger Rolled" patrol caps
3) Aerosmith black T-shirts under BDU's
4) Sleeves rolled 4 inches above elbows so cadets can show off their 19 inch guns...
5) Obese senior members wearing AF style uniforms that look like sausage casings....
6) State Military reserve, salvation Army, or ACA uniforms worn to CAP activities.
7) Queer eye for the straight guy-inspired multi-color squadron caps.
8) Is that a pledge pin on your uniform?!!!
Major Lord
Disabled smileys -MIKE
I believe the ranger rolled patrol caps is unit choice
Its not just the senior members that have the obesity problem, I have seen plenty of cadets
The Ranger Roll is not within the Squadrons' discretion. It is not permissable. We can't do much about obese cadets until they turn 18. I agree that a corpulent cadet (or senior) wearing the Air Force uniform is a stain on our organization, but it is permissable and they don't have many other options. If they created a sausage body uniform for Cadets ( as they have kindly done for Seniors) they would likely feel that we are discriminating. ( in the "bad" sense of the word)
Major Lord
Quote from: Dad2-4 on December 02, 2007, 02:56:13 AM
What I saw tonight in one place: ???
White shirt-gray pants combo with blue epaulets.
White shirt-gray pants combo with black tie.
Blue blazer combo but with black blazer.
Two young officers/ former cadets with folding tactical knives clipped to their blues pants pockets.
All of the above received awards for various things, accepted one for someone else, or was helping present them.
:o :o :o
Makes me thankful that EVERY Senior in my unit is former RM. (In my own,lone, case;
almost military ) And the senior cadets are dual-hat JROTC. Between these forces, there is no possibility that such mistakes could occur in my unit. :)
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2007, 02:22:00 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on November 30, 2007, 01:59:25 PM
And while I completely agree with you on the golf shirt's use for light work duty, that's not what 39-1 says. Whether we agree or not, it's the equivalent of short sleeve service dress.
Can you cite on that? I can't find anything that really defines what the golf shirt "is".
Sure - table 4-8, line 5
Quote from: Dragoon on December 03, 2007, 08:02:44 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2007, 02:22:00 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on November 30, 2007, 01:59:25 PM
And while I completely agree with you on the golf shirt's use for light work duty, that's not what 39-1 says. Whether we agree or not, it's the equivalent of short sleeve service dress.
Can you cite on that? I can't find anything that really defines what the golf shirt "is".
Sure - table 4-8, line 5
Well, that's ure what it says, although line 4 says the same thing for the aviator shirt.
4 is a no brainer, but 5 is a stretch (IMHO) - something else to fix in the next rev of 39-1.
Table 4-8. CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform
4 Aviator Shirt with Epaulets (=) AF-style light blue shirt
5 Knit Shirts (=) AF-style light
I would agree - the golf shirt is, or at least should be, a utility uniform (if you need to have it at all). Fly in it, hunt ELTS in it, work mission base in it. But don't go to National Board Meetings in it.
But until then, it's a service uniform. And while men can wear black sneakers with it, women cannot, based on the wording.
Quote from: JThemann on December 03, 2007, 02:12:44 AM
Quote from: Fiddes_CAP-065 on December 03, 2007, 02:03:24 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
1) Boots tucked instead of bloused.
2) " Ranger Rolled" patrol caps
3) Aerosmith black T-shirts under BDU's
4) Sleeves rolled 4 inches above elbows so cadets can show off their 19 inch guns...
5) Obese senior members wearing AF style uniforms that look like sausage casings....
6) State Military reserve, salvation Army, or ACA uniforms worn to CAP activities.
7) Queer eye for the straight guy-inspired multi-color squadron caps.
8) Is that a pledge pin on your uniform?!!!
Major Lord
Disabled smileys -MIKE
I believe the ranger rolled patrol caps is unit choice
Its not just the senior members that have the obesity problem, I have seen plenty of cadets
The 'ranger roll' is never, ever okay.
I just looked it up in the 39-1, and I stand corrected. My apologies for any confusion.
In my experience, and in no particular order:
1. LACK OF PRESSING! I see too many cadets and seniors that don't seem to know what an iron or starch is, or don't seem to think it is necessary.
2. Shoe Shine, especially with boots. Also to tie in with this, scuffed corframs. I hate the things because once you nick them they're ruined, but I've seen many people continue to wear them even with an appearance similar to black brushed aluminum.
3. Sleeve roll on BDUs too large. M39-1 mandates that the roll on the sleeve should be somewhere in the vicinity of two inches in width. Most cadets I've seen keep them at four inches or more, and the inside part of the sleeve is always creeping out of the roll.
4. Jewelry, especially exposed necklaces, and too many earrings.
5. Not wearing a tie with the long sleeve blues shirt
6. Wrong belt with BDUs
7. Facial Hair, mustashes that extend way beyond the lip, or in one instance that I've seen, a full-blown beard in a USAF style uniform...
8. Navy/Marine style patrol cap instead of the proper Army/Air Force style.
9. Improper tuck in of shirt. Both cadets and senior walking around with their shirt rolling over the top of their pants because the don't tuck it in all the way, and won't wear shirt stays to keep it there...
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
1) Boots tucked instead of bloused.
And the problem with this is? I don't see the problem as long as they are not tapered MC Hammer-style.
Quote from: floridacyclist on December 11, 2007, 09:40:23 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
1) Boots tucked instead of bloused.
And the problem with this is? I don't see the problem as long as they are not tapered MC Hammer-style.
Has that the same as peg-legged?
I think so...although I had always previously thought that peg-legged meant squared-off like when you put cardboard rings in the bottom; I'm just looking at the definition of blousing. Either way, it's simply supposed to be gathered in and draped loosely, regardless of how you gather it. I'm just not sure why some folks have cows over tucking pants in when that is the way we always did it in the RealMilitary@. At one activity we had, I actually had a head cadet going around having cadets pull up on their pants leg to prove that they weren't tucked in. It would seem to me that if he couldn't tell by looking at them, then it was probably within regs.
QuoteAIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2903, DRESS AND PERSONAL APPEARANCE
OF AIR FORCE PERSONNEL (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf)
"Blouse trousers over combat boots or tuck trousers into boots to give a bloused effect. Blousing is defined as: to gather in and drape loosely (cannot be folded or have a tapered look)".
Quote from: floridacyclist on December 11, 2007, 10:07:16 PM
I think so...although I had always previously thought that peg-legged meant squared-off like when you put cardboard rings in the bottom; I'm just looking at the definition of blousing. Either way, it's simply supposed to be gathered in and draped loosely, regardless of how you gather it.
QuoteAIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2903, DRESS AND PERSONAL APPEARANCE
OF AIR FORCE PERSONNEL (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf)
"Blouse trousers over combat boots or tuck trousers into boots to give a bloused effect. Blousing is defined as: to gather in and drape loosely (cannot be folded or have a tapered look)".
Some "high-speed types" like to put rings in the bottom of the pant to make it look more bloused. That's legal, if a little silly.
"Peg legging" is when you wrap the pants around your leg so it looks skin tight from the top of the calf right down into the boots. That's a no-no.
Quote from: floridacyclist on December 11, 2007, 09:40:23 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
1) Boots tucked instead of bloused.
And the problem with this is? I don't see the problem as long as they are not tapered MC Hammer-style.
I tuck and then drap excess down the boot top to look bloused I guess. I tuck to keep ticks, ants and chiggers out. I don't know anyother way,
Quote from: SStradley on December 11, 2007, 10:25:55 PM
Quote from: floridacyclist on December 11, 2007, 09:40:23 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
1) Boots tucked instead of bloused.
And the problem with this is? I don't see the problem as long as they are not tapered MC Hammer-style.
I tuck and then drap excess down the boot top to look bloused I guess. I tuck to keep ticks, ants and chiggers out. I don't know anyother way,
You are correct. That is the smart way to do it.
In the Army we tucked our pants in and bloused them over...basically let them hang out.
Now, in the Air Force (Guard), most people blouse them on the outside with blousing rubbers, but since no one really cares in the AF, lots of people do either or. But I have yet to see anyone "peg-leg" it.
Quote from: Stonewall on December 11, 2007, 09:53:32 PM
Quote from: floridacyclist on December 11, 2007, 09:40:23 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 04:54:35 AM
1) Boots tucked instead of bloused.
And the problem with this is? I don't see the problem as long as they are not tapered MC Hammer-style.
Has that the same as peg-legged?
We were just talking about this at an IMERT meeting with some friends. For our purposes, "pegging" is wear you take the cuff of your pants,old it over so its tight against the leg, then tuck it into your boot as far as it will go, giving a tapered, clean but not very attractive look. The only time I peg mine is if we are out in the field and I dont want catch my pants on anything or where the possibility of critters in the boots is very real. I will also some times do it of the for foul weather (alot of snow, rain, etc.
Personally, I usually just put on my pants, then my socks and then my side zip boots. I zip up the boots and adjust them as need be. Then I take the old fashioned (ala WWII) green braided blousing bands and put it just above the "cuff of my boot. Make final adjustments to the boots, then take the pants leg and turn it up and inside the pant leg, thus securing the "extra" fabric under the blouser and presto! perfectly bloused boots.
One suggestion though: if you have trouble with diabetes, etc with poor circulation or you are a heavier individual, I would use the black or camo nylon 2" wide strips with velcro at each end. Any military type can show you whats involved with using these as it differs from the cord and hook type I use. The wider band distributes the pressure more evenly and you stand a better chance of not have your legs swell. Plus you can adjust the tightness of them because of the velcro. with the braided/hook model, your stuck with as far as it will stretch.
I personally dont like the pegged look at all and have only seen it used when I was working medical standby for our local NG Chem Battallion. They pegged them so as to make it easier getting in and out of MOP suits. Also, some of our IMERT members dont blouse at all due to size or comfort or just plain preference and this is allowed provided the cuffs are in good order and not fraid. Just take out the blousing string sewn into the cuff. Sometimes when I am in the field i will either leave then down and not bloused our roll them up to just below the top of my boot...sort of basic training style.
YMMV/
Since we all seem to be in agreement, how did "boots tucked instead of bloused" make it onto a list of uniform infractions if they seem to be one and the same?
Quote from: floridacyclist on December 12, 2007, 12:17:42 AM
Since we all seem to be in agreement, how did "boots tucked instead of bloused" make it onto a list of uniform infractions if they seem to be one and the same?
The're not one and the same. There is a difference between them.
However, tucking used to be against the CAP manual, and the AFI. The current wording in -2903 now permits it, as long as the pant leg presents a bloused appearance. It used to be an issue, but it's not anymore since the AFI changed.
According to the AFI, both practices are now permitted.
That's good. Cause if you do it right, it's almost impossible to tell the difference unless you squat down next to the guy and try to spot his socks..
The infractions I see the most are:
1. BDUs worn with black belt instead of blue.
2. BDUs worn with silver buckle instead of subdued.
3. Senior members (who may or may not be within the height/weight regulation) wearing uniforms that are too small (Blues, BDUs, and especially mess dress). In the case of the "I-can-still-squeeze-into-it" mess dress, those seated nearby at dinner advised to wear safety glasses, because that double-button-linky-thing looks like it's about to explode... ::)
4. Embroidered rank on BDU collar positioned incorrectly (not aligned with front of collar)
5. Crew-neck T-shirt worn under a blues shirt with open collar.
6. AF-style uniforms worn with civilian outerwear (seems to happen most frequently with the sage green flight suit)
7. Seniors wearing blue name plate (intended for wear on the white-and-blue uniform) on AF blue shirt (gray nameplate should be worn).
8. Seniors wearing black or gray name plate on white-and-blue uniform shirt (blue nameplate should be worn).
9. Cadet officers wearing metal grade insignia on collar of BDU shirt.
10. Seniors in AF-style uniforms with hair too long (touching the ears).
11. Improperly positioned patches on flight suit (No, you cannot wear your "Inland SAR School" patch on the right breast pocket... or the ES patch on the right shoulder!)
^ #1, isn't a riggers belt allowed now?
#8, when were Cadets allowed to wear pin-on? I think when I was one, we were allowed pin-on (not sure hats or both hats and bdu shirt). They should be permitted to wear pin-on insignia for they promote faster than Officers.
Quote from: mdickinson on December 13, 2007, 10:42:32 PM
1. BDUs worn with black belt instead of blue.
The Air Force permits this now. Some CAP personnel are following suit.
I think this occured because the Army went to the tan web belt, and there were loads of black ones available. So Air Force personnel started wearing them.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 14, 2007, 07:01:13 PM
Quote from: mdickinson on December 13, 2007, 10:42:32 PM
1. BDUs worn with black belt instead of blue.
The Air Force permits this now. Some CAP personnel are following suit.
"Some CAP personnel" are wrong. CAPR 39-1 makes it very clear that the only belt we wear with our BDUs is a blue belt with an open-face subdued buckle.
What seems to happen is that one person in a unit, or a wing, gets it into their head that something unauthorized (like a black belt) is "OK," and then convinces others that it's OK. Then when someone points out that a dozen people at a unit, or an encampment, etc. are wearing the uniform incorrectly, they protest that they are sure it's OK.
But it's not.
Quote from: mdickinson on December 14, 2007, 07:43:23 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 14, 2007, 07:01:13 PM
Quote from: mdickinson on December 13, 2007, 10:42:32 PM
1. BDUs worn with black belt instead of blue.
The Air Force permits this now. Some CAP personnel are following suit.
"Some CAP personnel" are wrong. CAPR 39-1 makes it very clear that the only belt we wear with our BDUs is a blue belt with an open-face subdued buckle.
What seems to happen is that one person in a unit, or a wing, gets it into their head that something unauthorized (like a black belt) is "OK," and then convinces others that it's OK. Then when someone points out that a dozen people at a unit, or an encampment, etc. are wearing the uniform incorrectly, they protest that they are sure it's OK.
But it's not.
I didn't say it was right, only explained the reason why it was occuring.
But since we have a "uniform hotline" thread, I'll post it in there. There's no reason why a CAP member shouldn't be able to get almost everything they need at an Air Force Mil Clothing store.
Quote"Some CAP personnel" are wrong. CAPR 39-1 makes it very clear that the only belt we wear with our BDUs is a blue belt with an open-face subdued buckle.
What seems to happen is that one person in a unit, or a wing, gets it into their head that something unauthorized (like a black belt) is "OK," and then convinces others that it's OK. Then when someone points out that a dozen people at a unit, or an encampment, etc. are wearing the uniform incorrectly, they protest that they are sure it's OK.
And others just dont care about a uniform infraction that you never really see
I have also been told that there was a policy letter authorizing black web belts. It disappeared shortly after, but never rescinded. I do not have copy of said policy though.
BTW, I wear a blue belt w/ subdued buckle.
What if you wear one of these (http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/level4s.tam?xax=593&pagenumber%2Eptx=1&M5COPY%2Ectx=30054&M5%2Ectx=3535&M2%5FDESC%2Ectx=Belts%2C%20Buckles%2C%20Accessories&level3%2Ectx=results%2Etam&query%2Ectx=better%20BDU%20belt&backto=%2Fagcatalog%2Fresults%2Etam)? ;D Comes in blue with a sududed and open faced buckle.
Edit: Awww boo. :(
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table Table 2-3.3 Belt and Buckle Dark blue, 1 1/4-inch woven cotton web, solid or woven elastic belt
with black metal tip end and plain (open faced) black buckle. Black tip
may extend up to 1 inch beyond the buckle, facing to the wearer's left
(men) or facing wearer's right or left (women).
Quote from: MIKE on December 15, 2007, 03:16:23 PM
What if you wear one of these (http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/level4s.tam?xax=593&pagenumber%2Eptx=1&M5COPY%2Ectx=30054&M5%2Ectx=3535&M2%5FDESC%2Ectx=Belts%2C%20Buckles%2C%20Accessories&level3%2Ectx=results%2Etam&query%2Ectx=better%20BDU%20belt&backto=%2Fagcatalog%2Fresults%2Etam)? ;D Comes in blue with a sududed and open faced buckle.
Edit: Awww boo. :(
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table Table 2-3.3 Belt and Buckle Dark blue, 1 1/4-inch woven cotton web, solid or woven elastic belt
with black metal tip end and plain (open faced) black buckle. Black tip
may extend up to 1 inch beyond the buckle, facing to the wearer's left
(men) or facing wearer's right or left (women).
A little off topic, but I wear that belt in the version made by 5.11 with my IMERT uniform. A fantastic belt, though the 5.11 in my opinion is superior because it has velcro which allows the belt to lay flat against your waist instead of sticking out the side as this poor chap is wearing his. The reason I mention this "rigger" type belt is because I have found that for EMS/Rescue it allows for things to be hung from the belt without it pulling the belt out of shape because the nylon canvas is so thick. I generally wear a holster with EMT sheers, flashlight, etc and a carabiner to hold my leather gloves and the 5.11 stands up very well. It also has a buckle which I think must have been made on a force. Talk about wearing a weapon. The buckle itself weighs in at about 8 oz.
I only deviate into what i wear for another organization because I have tinkered around with other belts and found the 5.11 rigger to be superior in every way. Just be aware that if you undo your belt for any reason, as in to retuck your shirt, hold onto your pants or the weight of the buckle with have them around your ankles. Or so Ive heard.
Quote from: JCW0312 on November 30, 2007, 06:00:40 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2007, 05:42:37 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2007, 04:19:21 AM
2. Wearing things people shouldn't, like berets. Usually for one reason only, because they think they look cool.
Heck yeah! Can't beat it!
(http://photos.delawarewing.org/albums/oct2dover/IMG_1409.sized.jpg)
Say it isn't so. Please tell me you found some random person at the grocery store and asked her to put on a uniform & beret for a funny picture.
One that drives me up the wall, especially when I work with NG folks...improper wear of the beret. Is it that hard. While I didnt take the photo out before posting this, I think I would have blacked out the face of this member before posting. But whats worse is the person standing next to the member in BDUs. Is that supposed to be a golf shirt uniform? Good Lord.