This may seem out of left field, but does anyone wear any specialized gear when approaching or entering a crash site or actually entering the aircraft wreckage (which I know we have to treat as an investigation scene).
Ive responded with fire and rescue with two different agencies to two different a/c crashes and even though I am an EMT who is not a fire fighter (yet...just started in HazMat) i wore turn out gear, helmet, etc. In both cases I was the lucky SOB who had to go in an check the bodies for "presumptive signs of death." In the most recent situation, I wore SCBA given that there was a fire on impact and the subsequent conditions of the bodies. That drove home why cadets dont approach crashes.
Flagging tape and a camera.
Take pictures before I approach the site just in case there is any undesired/accidental disruption.
And not specific to a crash site but I also carry a 6 inch ruler for clues found during a search, I lay that next to the item and take a picture
latex gloves.
Small flashlight.
Camera is good. Take photos on approach, and of the panel as you found it.
I carry latex gloves and some surgical masks I got from the hospital that have the plastic eye shield attached for PPE.
Disposable cameras work better sometimes. I'd rather snap shots, and when the FAA or NTSB shows up, just hand the camera to the lead investigator and say "these are pictures of when we arrived". Take backups with digital, but I'm not handing over MY digital to the feds!
Short of having a cadet that is an EMT or EMT/P, I wouldn't have any of them approaching the crash site to check for fatalities. I'd have them establish a perimeter, and bring a 2nd senior along to confirm that there is absence of life. If you got a live one with dead ones around, I'd be very cautious as to who I let come close. Older cadets with PPE as needed, only to help if extra hands are needed. Of course, if you got a mass casuality, we do what we can, and call the CISM team.
My understanding is that cadets under the age of 18 do not approach the crash site specifically to prevent them with coming into contact with the bodies of those who may have been killed in the crash. Also, I dont know very many 18 year old paramedics...actually, not any. I know its different in some states but in IL you have to be 18 to become an EMT.
The FUBAR :D
(http://nosheep.net/wp-content/upload/hammer.jpg)
Ill stick with my Halligan bar.
Quote from: SARMedTech on August 24, 2007, 03:43:54 AM
Ill stick with my Halligan bar.
Do not drop that on a sneaker clad toe. :o
Cirrus aircraft has a specfic tool they reccomend for cutting the trigger cable on the ballistic chute. I don't have the info nearby but I'm sure an e-mail or call to the company would get you it.
There are many variables to this one:
First, Rescue or Recovery?
Either way appropriate PPE, both for bood and body fluids, then for individual protection...ie Hard hat, goggles, leather gloves, long sleeve heavy weight material jacket(ie bunker coat type) and ideally steel toes boots......
A disposable camera is a good idea....not sure how it would apply to non LE personnel, but I was told once that accident investigation pictures can not be digital (difficult to prove non tampering with)
Rescue.......this gets tricky depnding on your level of training and ablity:
there are some very easy and relitively lightweight pieces of equipment that can be carried to effect extrication if needed.
Hacksaw w/spare blades
Phillips head screw driver (small & large)
Slotted head screw driver (small & large)
5/8" cold chisel
Small hand sledge
10" Adjustable wrench
Wire cutters
Rescue shears
Tongue & Groove 8" slip joint pliers
Crash Axe or Hatchet
15" Wonder bar
Small Plumbers putty
Roll Duct tape
Cable come-a-long
Fire Extinguisher
mk
Quote from: SARMedTech on August 24, 2007, 12:49:23 AM
My understanding is that cadets under the age of 18 do not approach the crash site specifically to prevent them with coming into contact with the bodies of those who may have been killed in the crash. Also, I dont know very many 18 year old paramedics...actually, not any. I know its different in some states but in IL you have to be 18 to become an EMT.
I do not believe there is any regulation that prohibits it, only common sense and good judgement.
Every state has their own wierd way. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong fyrfytrmedic) in PA you can get your EMT-B at 16 and EMT-P at 18. I remember a few friends back in high school that went through a 1 month M-F 9-6 EMT-B course during the summer back when we were sophmores. TN I believe is age 18 for either.
Personally, if there's nothing but dead people in the wreckage, once you've confirmed they're dead, there's no reason for anyone except the coroner and the NTSB to go near the wreckage.
People argue this all day long, but I consider my duties as a GTL to search, locate, identify, render life saving first aid if necessary.
As for tools for approaching a chash site, only the stuff I carry every day. I'd use the term that has stuck in my head since my first EMT course in the early '90s, "scene secure, don gloves". Even at other med courses, I've been caught saying it out loud. I'm sure I've said it at real MVAs and other med scenes.
Seriously, I ain't gonna carry a halogen tool, jaws of life, or a come-a-long. Not even a hack-saw. However, at my last squadron we had a "B&E kit" for breaking into or out of locked locations. Had hack saw, bolt cutters, and crow bar. We learned the hard way that you can actually get locked into a military training area. So if it was accessible, we could possibly return to the van and get those tools, but chances that would be feasible are slim.
I'd secure the scene, don gloves and check for survivors. I do carry a camera for the helluvit, so I guess I would take pics.
I am about to start carying a small hammer and hack saw.
Im not going to take my team into a crash scene and have someone die because they were traped in an airplane and I could not get them out.
You can't just go cutting depending on what aircraft it is. On smaller planes you cut into Ni-Cad battery cabbles that made there way into the are you are cutting and you cross the two wires and your dried or have lost your arm.
On the larger stuff there is lots of stuff that says DANGER LETHAL VOLTAGE. You cut into a wire going to one of those boxes and your fried.
YOU CAN NOT TREAT AN AIRCRAFT LIKE A CAR PEOPLE!
WAY TO MANY THING THAT WILL KILL YOU QUICK!!!!!!!!!!!
First thing I would ever do before anything is kill the master power switch if you have to do any cutting.
Id take a hammer/hammer axe, pry bar, a hack saw and that it.
Why would you need screw drivers? You are NOT going to need to pull engine cowls or wing acess pannels. Small aircraft doors are not like cars doors and these aircraft are not made of steel, you don't need the jaws of life haha. A simple basic pry bar and hammer with bust a 172 door off easy.
Everyone can probably figure out what I do for a living :)
A camera should be something the GTL carries regardless of the mission.
Ragardless of regs I would not let any cadets under me on scene unless there was no way around it. Thats just me.
You sell batteries?
Quote from: sarmed1 on August 24, 2007, 10:02:04 PM
Hacksaw w/spare blades
Phillips head screw driver (small & large)
Slotted head screw driver (small & large)
5/8" cold chisel
Small hand sledge
10" Adjustable wrench
Wire cutters
Rescue shears
Tongue & Groove 8" slip joint pliers
Crash Axe or Hatchet
15" Wonder bar
Small Plumbers putty
Roll Duct tape
Cable come-a-long
Fire Extinguisher
You're kidding right? Where's the pack mule for all this heavy stuff.
Quote from: ELTHunter on August 25, 2007, 01:18:59 PM
Quote from: sarmed1 on August 24, 2007, 10:02:04 PM
Hacksaw w/spare blades
Phillips head screw driver (small & large)
Slotted head screw driver (small & large)
5/8" cold chisel
Small hand sledge
10" Adjustable wrench
Wire cutters
Rescue shears
Tongue & Groove 8" slip joint pliers
Crash Axe or Hatchet
15" Wonder bar
Small Plumbers putty
Roll Duct tape
Cable come-a-long
Fire Extinguisher
You're kidding right? Where's the pack mule for all this heavy stuff.
Pick your biggest cadet ... >:D
Just one question? Why plumbers putty? Seriously, I'd really like to know. The only thing I can come up with is plugging a fuel leak and I'm not sure if it would be effective (my gut says no).
I can see how the other items could be useful as supplemental team gear. I carry extra items in our team vehicle (my POV) as well and adjust the load out as necessary for mission needs. I could see where many of those items would/could be useful depending on the situation. I've seen teams with chain saws as well (depends on the situation).
I hope that the one thing I also carry is "common sense", plenty of water comes next. It gets very hot in Texas. As I said before, I adjust my own load out depending on the situation. I can go very heavy (generator/chain saws) for supporting DR type missions in Tornado alley to very light (first aid/survival kit) for missing persons searches. For me everything else is somewhere "in between".
Quote from: smgilbert101 on August 25, 2007, 05:51:04 PM
Just one question? Why plumbers putty? Seriously, I'd really like to know. The only thing I can come up with is plugging a fuel leak and I'm not sure if it would be effective (my gut says no).
When cadets are being loud and you are trying to sleep, plumbers putty allows you to conserve duct tape when covering their mouths. :o
Quote from: JC004 on August 25, 2007, 07:43:33 PMWhen cadets are being loud and you are trying to sleep, plumbers putty allows you to conserve duct tape when covering their mouths. :o
:o Ow, fell out of chair laughing....putty will be added ;D
Tags - MIKE
The putty is for fluid leaks......maybe not even where the fuel leaks out but where it leaks in on you.....
Not every extrication is a matter of brute force...sometimes its about making the room you need to get the patient out.
ie unstable postioned aircraft...if you start beating on it it could cause worse damage or a change in position...apposed to disasembling the door or a seat etc...to clear your way...
Have you seen the newer cars today...all of the same problems between 15 differant air bags, hybrid fuel cells cutting cars is just as dangerous as cutting aircraft. There isnt a lot of steel in most cars either...mostly re-inforcing bars in high impact areas...everything is crushable around the passenger compartment....that easy alluminum is what you have to peel out of the way to get people out....
None of that (except maybe the fire extinguisher) weighs very much.
Cable come-along is only a 2 ton pull....not that much weight
The hacksaw that I have for SAR is a combination woodsman saw (like for cutting up trees) and a hacksaw blade.
....the rest packs in a roll up tool kit.
mk
Quote from: sarmed1 on August 25, 2007, 08:27:56 PM
The putty is for fluid leaks......maybe not even where the fuel leaks out but where it leaks in on you.....
Not every extrication is a matter of brute force...sometimes its about making the room you need to get the patient out.
Thanks for the reply, I was serious when I asked.
I like alternate use as well (I won't limit use to cadets only) >:D