CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: TotalForce on April 14, 2017, 02:41:43 PM

Title: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: TotalForce on April 14, 2017, 02:41:43 PM
New CAP member and browisng Vanguard since we can't get on base for the BX.

The Blues with that gray epaulets is just nauseating. I understand the concept where big brother wanted CAP to differentiate from them. But what about the same epaulets, in the dark blue with the CAP written on it?

The blue name tapes on ABU?????

Like I said total force what??

I do however like being in CAP but when will CAP be treated better instead of 3rd class citizens by big brother?
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Jester on April 14, 2017, 02:45:51 PM
Who said you can't get on a base?  What base?
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: SarDragon on April 14, 2017, 02:53:47 PM
 :o

If the current status of CAP with the AF is so displeasing, maybe you should find another outlet for your time. Coming in here, and peeing all over the floor, certainly isn't going to get you any accolades.

In my time in CAP, I haven't seen a huge "red-headed step-child" attitude. There are certainly awareness issues, and sometimes the awareness is due to negative PR, but I think our current relationship with our parent service is pretty good. Your attitude here isn't doing anything positive.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Eclipse on April 14, 2017, 02:55:57 PM
Looks like someone is off school for the holiday and bored.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: SarDragon on April 14, 2017, 03:12:49 PM
 >:D
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: jeders on April 14, 2017, 04:03:02 PM
Looks like someone is off school for the holiday and bored.

Where's my like button?
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Chappie on April 14, 2017, 05:11:05 PM
:o

If the current status of CAP with the AF is so displeasing, maybe you should find another outlet for your time. Coming in here, and peeing all over the floor, certainly isn't going to get you any accolades.

In my time in CAP, I haven't seen a huge "red-headed step-child" attitude. There are certainly awareness issues, and sometimes the awareness is due to negative PR, but I think our current relationship with our parent service is pretty good. Your attitude here isn't doing anything positive.

Love it when a new person comes in with guns blazing with little or no knowledge of the relationship/history of CAP and the Air Force.   The relationship is far better now than it has ever been (IMHO) since the dust up in the late '80s/early '90s due to misdeeds within our organization.  The gray epaulets are a far cry from the "berry boards" of the early '90's.  I came in when the grays were being introduced --- and there was much rejoicing. Then CAP went through the dark years (2005-2007)...that's all I have to say about that.

The dark blue is a far better than the aqua-marine name tapes...the ABU is a major gain.

I know that the Chaplain Corps has a great relationship with the USAF...especially with the Center for Character and Leadership Development (CCLD) at USAFA.

I would attribute some of the "3rd class citizen" mentality to base personnel who are misinformed or unknowledgeable regarding CAP rather than command staff.  That is why it is important to work through the chain of command.  Let them deal with the issues...it is not the place of the squadron member to take on those type of issues (i.e. base access).  In my 20+ years I have never experienced a problem with base access (been to 11 different bases).

As SarDragon has suggested, if the current status is not up to your expectations or satisfaction, there are plenty of other volunteer/service organizations to devote your time and energy.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Chappie on April 14, 2017, 05:11:39 PM
Looks like someone is off school for the holiday and bored.

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: DocJekyll on April 16, 2017, 02:29:42 PM
....Then CAP went through the dark years (2005-2007)...that's all I have to say about that.


Yeah, we don't talk about those times... and I was a cadet back then. lol.  :-X :-X :-X
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Storm Chaser on April 17, 2017, 08:02:41 AM
CAP has been wearing the gray epaulets for over two decades now. Personally, I have no issues with them. I think they look good enough on the service uniform. Now, the service dress coat and light weight jacket is a different story. I don't think the gray epaulets look good on those, but that's what's approved, so we comply. At the end, what we do is more important than what epaulets we wear.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Toad1168 on April 17, 2017, 09:17:28 AM
Wowwwwww, someone should post a pic of the maroon ones we wore for a while.  And seriously, do some research into the history of the organization before you lash out.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: chuckmilam on April 17, 2017, 09:22:52 AM
I found I've still got a set of the maroon epaulets in my uniform kit.  *shudder*
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Simplex on April 17, 2017, 10:41:21 AM
Ditto: I wore those maroon ones up through 1/Lt. When I put on grey Captain epaulets it looked really sharp (IMHO).
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: TotalForce on April 17, 2017, 10:53:48 AM
:o

If the current status of CAP with the AF is so displeasing, maybe you should find another outlet for your time. Coming in here, and peeing all over the floor, certainly isn't going to get you any accolades.

In my time in CAP, I haven't seen a huge "red-headed step-child" attitude. There are certainly awareness issues, and sometimes the awareness is due to negative PR, but I think our current relationship with our parent service is pretty good. Your attitude here isn't doing anything positive.

Who said displeasing? I was expressing an opinon just like you did.

There was no looking for accolades, no peeing on the floor not bad attitude; just stating a fact in evidence. My post easn't meant to create any bad attitude. It looks like you're the one that's jumping to conclusion about attitudes et al.

My awareness is what I see and its not made up. Like I said I enjoy being in CAP and enjoy wat I do but I was pointing something out that jumped at me. Sorry if you don't like it, but just like you exercized your freedom of speech, so did I. You might not like it but you can respectfully disagree without the tude.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Shieldel on April 17, 2017, 12:08:27 PM
You have no idea how good it is now as opposed to WIWAC as a basic airman circa 2011. Don't get me wrong NV-069 (Nellis Comp Squadron) has issues getting on base but thank god we have AD Seniors and Retirees. We can get all our members DBIDS cards but that process is a hassle in of itself, in the mean time our van drives people through the gate using an AD Member's ID or a Retiree's. When the National Vice Commander visited Nellis few months back he even griped about the process. "I have an office on Maxwell yet have a hassle getting onto any another base, it's frustrating" - paraphrased.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Toad1168 on April 17, 2017, 04:37:43 PM
:o

If the current status of CAP with the AF is so displeasing, maybe you should find another outlet for your time. Coming in here, and peeing all over the floor, certainly isn't going to get you any accolades.

In my time in CAP, I haven't seen a huge "red-headed step-child" attitude. There are certainly awareness issues, and sometimes the awareness is due to negative PR, but I think our current relationship with our parent service is pretty good. Your attitude here isn't doing anything positive.

Who said displeasing? I was expressing an opinon just like you did.

There was no looking for accolades, no peeing on the floor not bad attitude; just stating a fact in evidence. My post easn't meant to create any bad attitude. It looks like you're the one that's jumping to conclusion about attitudes et al.

My awareness is what I see and its not made up. Like I said I enjoy being in CAP and enjoy wat I do but I was pointing something out that jumped at me. Sorry if you don't like it, but just like you exercized your freedom of speech, so did I. You might not like it but you can respectfully disagree without the tude.

@TotalForce  It is more that you are rehashing issues that have been discussed multiple times before.  If you search, you will find the threads.  The "tude" as you so eloquently put it, is due to the abrasive tone and general lack of understanding of the organization's history.  Do your research and contribute meaningful commentary in lieu of simply firing shots across the bow.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Ed DeSocio on April 17, 2017, 05:56:38 PM
I found some random pictures of these dreadful things online.  I hated wearing them.  It was humiliating, especially on the service coat.  Be thankful for the grey.

(http://i.imgur.com/03lS7Eo.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/qyABfR4.jpg)
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: NIN on April 17, 2017, 06:00:07 PM
I found I've still got a set of the maroon epaulets in my uniform kit.  *shudder*
Ditto

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Ned on April 17, 2017, 06:48:05 PM
I found some random pictures of these dreadful things online.  I hated wearing them.  It was humiliating, especially on the service coat.  Be thankful for the grey.

(http://i.imgur.com/03lS7Eo.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/qyABfR4.jpg)

I understand I am in the minority, but I kind of liked the maroon shoulder marks.  Especially nice on the light blue shirt.

And reminded me of our heritage - the red shoulder straps from WWII.  I wonder if our earliest members thought they were being disrespected by the Army Air Corps because of the color of the shoulder straps.

My guess is that they were just grateful to serve and wear the (modified) uniform of their country.  Kind of an aspirational goal for us, wouldn't you say?
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Spam on April 17, 2017, 08:02:35 PM
And reminded me of our heritage - the red shoulder straps from WWII.  I wonder if our earliest members thought they were being disrespected by the Army Air Corps because of the color of the shoulder straps.

My guess is that they were just grateful to serve and wear the (modified) uniform of their country.  Kind of an aspirational goal for us, wouldn't you say?

Ned, you win the Internet today. Best CAP comment in weeks. Possibly the best CAP uniform comment in years.

V/r
Spam




Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: LATORRECA on April 17, 2017, 09:02:45 PM
@nedd 👏👏👍

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Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Chaplaindon on April 18, 2017, 11:52:55 AM
I've been around CAP long enough to remember the days (in the 80s) when we wore navy shoulder marks with "CAP" embroidered on them ... then thanks to the unfortunate actions of a CAP general officer we were all punished. First, it was the addition of horrid maroon and white "loops" that said "CAP" worn on the service coat beside the metal grade insignia, then the equally atrocious "Berry Boards" (also "goofy-grape" colored) ... I agree the gray shoulder marks (with "US" cutouts) are a distinct improvement, albeit, I regret the actions of the ONE who forced them (and their predecessors) on the good, hard-working, membership of CAP.

I wish CAP could work out a more attractive solution, more akin to what I/we wear in the USCG Auxiliary: distinctive but attractive.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: THRAWN on April 18, 2017, 12:26:06 PM
I've been around CAP long enough to remember the days (in the 80s) when we wore navy shoulder marks with "CAP" embroidered on them ... then thanks to the unfortunate actions of a CAP general officer we were all punished. First, it was the addition of horrid maroon and white "loops" that said "CAP" worn on the service coat beside the metal grade insignia, then the equally atrocious "Berry Boards" (also "goofy-grape" colored) ... I agree the gray shoulder marks (with "US" cutouts) are a distinct improvement, albeit, I regret the actions of the ONE who forced them (and their predecessors) on the good, hard-working, membership of CAP.

I wish CAP could work out a more attractive solution, more akin to what I/we wear in the USCG Auxiliary: distinctive but attractive.

Leave the grey epaulette sleeves on the shirts, add grey braid on the sleeve of the service uniform in place of the blue, go back to metal insignia on the service coat and add grey loops like the old Army combat leader loops. Or just leave it all alone. It's distinctive and it's "our own".
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on April 18, 2017, 12:27:52 PM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the uniforms are set up now.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: zippity on April 18, 2017, 03:56:08 PM
The only quibble I have with the corporate uniforms is that so many of them don't have headwear equivalent to their AF style counterparts. It feels unbalanced somehow.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on April 18, 2017, 04:20:19 PM
The only quibble I have with the corporate uniforms is that so many of them don't have headwear equivalent to their AF style counterparts. It feels unbalanced somehow.


Those are a whole other discussion.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: THRAWN on April 18, 2017, 04:37:10 PM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the uniforms are set up now.

Exactly. Like I said, it's distinctive and it's ours.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: LTC Don on April 18, 2017, 06:50:28 PM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the uniforms are set up now.


Wasn't anything wrong with them before, either....   >:D


 ;)
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on April 19, 2017, 04:42:18 AM
I found some random pictures of these dreadful things online.  I hated wearing them.  It was humiliating, especially on the service coat.  Be thankful for the grey.

(http://i.imgur.com/03lS7Eo.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/qyABfR4.jpg)

I understand I am in the minority, but I kind of liked the maroon shoulder marks.  Especially nice on the light blue shirt.

And reminded me of our heritage - the red shoulder straps from WWII.  I wonder if our earliest members thought they were being disrespected by the Army Air Corps because of the color of the shoulder straps.

My guess is that they were just grateful to serve and wear the (modified) uniform of their country.  Kind of an aspirational goal for us, wouldn't you say?

It WAS an aspirational goal. But not any more. Not when 1/3 - 1/2 of the membership cannot aspire to it by regulation.

CAP really needs a CAP uniform that everybody wears, not one for some and another for others.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: shuman14 on April 19, 2017, 10:17:12 AM
Quote
I wish CAP could work out a more attractive solution, more akin to what I/we wear in the USCG Auxiliary: distinctive but attractive.

I have said several times that it would not be impossible to get the three initials "CAP" superimposed on the center of all rank insignia in either Blue or Red enamel.

The US Coast Guard Auxiliary has done this for years with their "A" on the insignia in Red or Blue based on elected or appointed office held. For Field/Working uniforms it's now simply an embroidered "A" in black thread on the sewn on insignia regardless of appointed or elected office.

Quote
add grey braid on the sleeve of the service uniform in place of the blue, go back to metal insignia on the service coat

That is also a simple and excellent idea.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: ColonelJack on April 20, 2017, 07:16:18 AM
I've often suggested (never formally, since I don't want to open that particular can of worms) that we do a modern version of the World War II CAP uniforms. 

In other words, a standard Air Force officer's service coat, but with gray epaulets.  To those, we pin metal rank.

And I think the idea of gray officer braid to replace the blue on the sleeves is a fabulous idea.

For the World War II reference, check out the red epaulets and officer braid on the service coats of that era.

Distinctive?  It couldn't be any more distinctive.

Jack
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: ColonelJack on April 20, 2017, 07:21:57 AM
I found some random pictures of these dreadful things online.  I hated wearing them.  It was humiliating, especially on the service coat.  Be thankful for the grey.

(http://i.imgur.com/03lS7Eo.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/qyABfR4.jpg)

I understand I am in the minority, but I kind of liked the maroon shoulder marks.  Especially nice on the light blue shirt.

And reminded me of our heritage - the red shoulder straps from WWII.  I wonder if our earliest members thought they were being disrespected by the Army Air Corps because of the color of the shoulder straps.

My guess is that they were just grateful to serve and wear the (modified) uniform of their country.  Kind of an aspirational goal for us, wouldn't you say?

It WAS an aspirational goal. But not any more. Not when 1/3 - 1/2 of the membership cannot aspire to it by regulation.

CAP really needs a CAP uniform that everybody wears, not one for some and another for others.

The problem, of course, is that the Air Force has the final say on who fills their uniforms, and what those people should look like.

The Air Force doesn't want the "fat 'n fuzzies" to wear their uniforms.  I seriously doubt that position is going to change in the far term, much less the near term.

While I do concur 100% that CAP needs a service uniform that everybody - fit, fat, or fuzzy - can wear, we've already had our backsides spanked regarding the CSU (and I know, the fuzzies couldn't wear it).  It was a pretty good kit, but I believe its downfall was multi-fold:  the way it was introduced, by whom it was introduced (HWSRN), and the fact that it was a pretty blatant end-run around the Air Force to get metal rank back were its major problems, in my (never-to-be-humble) opinion.

The berry boards?   I still have my major's rank on maroon, along with a pair of the original "circlets" that preceded them.  Wouldn't part with them for the world.  (Wouldn't ever want to wear them again, either.)

Jack
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Eclipse on April 20, 2017, 09:27:11 AM
While I do concur 100% that CAP needs a service uniform that everybody - fit, fat, or fuzzy - can wear, we've already had our backsides spanked regarding the CSU (and I know, the fuzzies couldn't wear it).  It was a pretty good kit, but I believe its downfall was multi-fold:  the way it was introduced, by whom it was introduced (HWSRN), and the fact that it was a pretty blatant end-run around the Air Force to get metal rank back were its major problems, in my (never-to-be-humble) opinion.

I'd love to know the source for your information.  The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF, including incorporating changes as directed.

All evidence publicly available indicates this was an internal decision most likely intended to purge the last remnants of HWSRN.

FWIW, I think red, not maroon, red epaulet sleeves would be wholly appropriate as legacy to the historic uniforms, at least there
is linage vs. the gray.  I'd also have no issue moving to a khaki-based uniform for all, or maybe for adult members, for the same reasons.

And now I'm feeding the troll, so well played.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: PHall on April 20, 2017, 10:26:28 AM
While I do concur 100% that CAP needs a service uniform that everybody - fit, fat, or fuzzy - can wear, we've already had our backsides spanked regarding the CSU (and I know, the fuzzies couldn't wear it).  It was a pretty good kit, but I believe its downfall was multi-fold:  the way it was introduced, by whom it was introduced (HWSRN), and the fact that it was a pretty blatant end-run around the Air Force to get metal rank back were its major problems, in my (never-to-be-humble) opinion.

I'd love to know the source for your information.  The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF, including incorporating changes as directed.

All evidence publicly available indicates this was an internal decision most likely intended to purge the last remnants of HWSRN.

FWIW, I think red, not maroon, red epaulet sleeves would be wholly appropriate as legacy to the historic uniforms, at least there
is linage vs. the gray.  I'd also have no issue moving to a khaki-based uniform for all, or maybe for adult members, for the same reasons.

And now I'm feeding the troll, so well played.

Cite please on your "The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF." statement. 
The changes came after the Air Force saw this uniform that appeared all of a sudden.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: SouthernCross on April 20, 2017, 10:38:35 AM
ColonelJack:

I would love to see "the original 'circlets' that preceded them." Do you have a picture of them you could post?
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Eclipse on April 20, 2017, 10:43:58 AM
Cite please on your "The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF." statement. 
The changes came after the Air Force saw this uniform that appeared all of a sudden.

Fair enough, to an extent, however before, during, or after, the USAF reviewed it, directed changes
instead of prohibiting it, and then likely literally never thought of it again.

The time to disavow it would have been when it, in your words, "appeared", not after members spend hundreds
of dollars buying it, especially considering the number of problems it solved, not the least of which was many
high-visibility staff no longer appearing in the USAF-style inappropriately, which many just simply started doing
again the next day.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Spaceman3750 on April 20, 2017, 10:50:01 AM
not the least of which was many high-visibility staff no longer appearing in the USAF-style inappropriately, which many just simply started doing again the next day.

A lack of personal integrity on the part of some high-visibility personnel is not a reason to create a new uniform.

As you would say, that's simply avoiding the actual problem.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Eclipse on April 20, 2017, 11:10:41 AM
Solving integrity mismatches was a side-benefit, not the justification.
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: ColonelJack on April 20, 2017, 12:17:09 PM
While I do concur 100% that CAP needs a service uniform that everybody - fit, fat, or fuzzy - can wear, we've already had our backsides spanked regarding the CSU (and I know, the fuzzies couldn't wear it).  It was a pretty good kit, but I believe its downfall was multi-fold:  the way it was introduced, by whom it was introduced (HWSRN), and the fact that it was a pretty blatant end-run around the Air Force to get metal rank back were its major problems, in my (never-to-be-humble) opinion.

I'd love to know the source for your information.  The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF, including incorporating changes as directed.

All evidence publicly available indicates this was an internal decision most likely intended to purge the last remnants of HWSRN.
 

I'm sorry, Bob ... I didn't mean to imply that I had any kind of long-withheld information about the CSU.  When I say "we had our backsides spanked" I should have continued that they were "spanked" by some members of the old NEC that didn't like HWSRN and the uniform, and thus voted to get rid of it, despite the fact that many members (myself included) had purchased it - even when we still qualified for AF uniforms.  I recall hearing that the CSU was okayed by the Air Force - after the changes that got rid of hard rank, anyway.

Quote
And now I'm feeding the troll, so well played.

I hope you don't mean me, old friend ... I ain't no troll.

Jack
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: ColonelJack on April 20, 2017, 12:20:02 PM
While I do concur 100% that CAP needs a service uniform that everybody - fit, fat, or fuzzy - can wear, we've already had our backsides spanked regarding the CSU (and I know, the fuzzies couldn't wear it).  It was a pretty good kit, but I believe its downfall was multi-fold:  the way it was introduced, by whom it was introduced (HWSRN), and the fact that it was a pretty blatant end-run around the Air Force to get metal rank back were its major problems, in my (never-to-be-humble) opinion.

I'd love to know the source for your information.  The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF, including incorporating changes as directed.

All evidence publicly available indicates this was an internal decision most likely intended to purge the last remnants of HWSRN.

FWIW, I think red, not maroon, red epaulet sleeves would be wholly appropriate as legacy to the historic uniforms, at least there
is linage vs. the gray.  I'd also have no issue moving to a khaki-based uniform for all, or maybe for adult members, for the same reasons.

And now I'm feeding the troll, so well played.

Cite please on your "The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF." statement. 
The changes came after the Air Force saw this uniform that appeared all of a sudden.

And I (along with many other members) was given to understand that after the changes the AF requested - epaulets in place of hard rank, CAP instead of US on the lapels - the CSU was given their thumbs-up.  Grudgingly, perhaps, but thumbs-up.  Members of the NEC were the culprits in its downfall.

I still have mine, should it ever be approved again.  (Which it will be, right after I'm named the next host of Jeopardy! when Alex Trebek retires.  Ha.)

Jack
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: ColonelJack on April 20, 2017, 12:21:04 PM
ColonelJack:

I would love to see "the original 'circlets' that preceded them." Do you have a picture of them you could post?

I'll get them out and snap a picture or two, then post here.

Jack
Title: Re: What's with the gray epaulets??
Post by: Eclipse on April 20, 2017, 12:32:16 PM
I hope you don't mean me, old friend ... I ain't no troll.

Nope - the OP was a drive-by and we all fed it.