This is a really interesting discussion of GPS vulnerabilities: http://www.nextgov.com/defense/2016/06/theres-no-backup-system-if-gps-fails/129044/?oref=big-data (http://www.nextgov.com/defense/2016/06/theres-no-backup-system-if-gps-fails/129044/?oref=big-data).
It's easy to imagine circumstances where even VORs are compromised or not available for our route. Recall, the FAA is rapidly shrinking the VOR population which means alternative beacons may not exist for those of us who fly below the flight levels.
The article caused me to think a bit about my own proficiency with basic pilotage and DedReckoning skills.
Task L-9999 Prepare Concrete Arrows
"IFR" I Follow Roads :)
Although now that I think about it, a set of statically aimed pulse lasers firing into the sky at regular intervals in the more remote zones could do what the concrete arrows used to do... and be more visible in bad weather.
IFR=I Follow Roads... As stated before.
Was not that what was made a long time ago before allo these aids to navigation?
The pilot looking down and... following a road, a river, etc...
I Follow Roads works great if it's an interstate or a known area and weather is very good VMC. Even low VFR can get pretty hazardous given the number of towers, wind turbines, and cables that now infest the landscape. IFR (I Follow Roads) also doesn't work so well with long cross country flight or flights over relatively unpopulated areas.
We need a few more ideas... ones that are more likely to work :)
Ya did not said anything about IFR=I Follow Rivers...
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 16, 2016, 10:58:54 PM
Ya did not said anything about IFR=I Follow Rivers...
Have you flown out west lately in MVFR or LVFR? Please take out a LARGE life policy and name recent posters to CAPTALK as your beneficiaries, you"d be a good bet for a quick payout. :) .
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 16, 2016, 09:50:51 PM
IFR=I Follow Roads... As stated before.
Was not that what was made a long time ago before allo these aids to navigation?
The pilot looking down and... following a road, a river, etc...
It's called "Pilotage".
Always been a fan of the good ole buzz the local watertower to figure out where you are
:o
Pilotage taught anymore? Got my ticket in the '70s. We would look out the window and compare roads and rivers and RR tracks and more to what we saw on charts. Takes practice. And even would time how long to travel from that river to the road and then use the wiz wheel to check groundspeed, and get a new ETA to destination. Are schools still teaching any of this? Are pilots looking out the window enough to have situational awareness as they pass cities, rivers and other features?
Wait, what?
Can't you just look for the big building and turn around?
(http://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e6/53/bc/e653bcd0c35204e6bb46468d3f632413.jpg)
Seems a no-brainer, I mean you can see that thing from anywhere anyone would actually want to fly...
Quote from: etodd on June 17, 2016, 04:24:38 AM
Pilotage taught anymore? Got my ticket in the '70s. We would look out the window and compare roads and rivers and RR tracks and more to what we saw on charts. Takes practice. And even would time how long to travel from that river to the road and then use the wiz wheel to check groundspeed, and get a new ETA to destination. Are schools still teaching any of this? Are pilots looking out the window enough to have situational awareness as they pass cities, rivers and other features?
Gateway Tech in Wisconsin teaches it on a limited basis. We are taught that when you set way points to pick known features on the map to aid in confirming where you are, but we use them in conjunction with navigating with VOR's and continue the practice when we move to GPS.
Me? I'd use a map. :D
Quote from: etodd on June 17, 2016, 04:24:38 AM
Pilotage taught anymore? Got my ticket in the '70s. We would look out the window and compare roads and rivers and RR tracks and more to what we saw on charts. Takes practice. And even would time how long to travel from that river to the road and then use the wiz wheel to check groundspeed, and get a new ETA to destination. Are schools still teaching any of this? Are pilots looking out the window enough to have situational awareness as they pass cities, rivers and other features?
I can guarantee that pilotage and dead reckoning are still taught and are still a part of the ACS.
It's called situational awareness, always knowing where you are and where you are going. Finger on chart eyeballs outside when VFR, when IFR making sure the #2 Navcom and whatever else is in the aircraft is also configured and aligned with the route segment. This would include even setting up your additional handheld transceiver (if you have one). If you have a tablet, cell phone with map options, etc. set it up for mapping, even if only road maps. Most of all keep the brain working.
Are GA pilots that far removed from the basics? Sounds like a good case for wing level flight clinics.
I'm not even a pilot and the first thought I had was "Uhhhh you navigate."
Quote from: stillamarine on June 17, 2016, 11:47:19 PM
I'm not even a pilot and the first thought I had was "Uhhhh you navigate."
You would be surprised on how many students we have that have never seen or read a map before entering the aeronautics program.
^ Shockingly so - people these days do not need to even know which way is North, and
many don't. People let devices navigate for them and the screen isn't even on.
Map reading and similar field craft are so far off the radar of most people beyond a certain age,
and even then it wasn't ubiquitous.
Factor in a sectional, which is foreign even to those steeped in road and topo maps and that adds
another layer.
Add this to the list of reasons why all CAP members should be required to get UDF their first year.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 19, 2016, 04:21:27 AM
^ Shockingly so - people these days do not need to even know which way is North, and
many don't. People let devices navigate for them and the screen isn't even on.
Map reading and similar field craft are so far off the radar of most people beyond a certain age,
and even then it wasn't ubiquitous.
Factor in a sectional, which is foreign even to those steeped in road and topo maps and that adds
another layer.
Add this to the list of reasons why all CAP members should be required to get UDF their first year.
Agree.
FWIW, "Trust, but verify" applies to the magenta line as well as finances, politics, and international treaties.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 19, 2016, 04:21:27 AM
^ Shockingly so - people these days do not need to even know which way is North,
I'm one of the odd ones in my group in that I always switch the G1000 to North Up mode. Same with Foreflight on my iPad. I like the screen to match how I've always read maps. It really helps situational awareness (at least to me).
Quote from: etodd on June 19, 2016, 03:34:14 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 19, 2016, 04:21:27 AM
^ Shockingly so - people these days do not need to even know which way is North,
I'm one of the odd ones in my group in that I always switch the G1000 to North Up mode. Same with Foreflight on my iPad. I like the screen to match how I've always read maps. It really helps situational awareness (at least to me).
+1 I do this in my wife's car with the nav and I know it drives her nuts. I prefer moving relative to the earth, not forcing the
earth to move relative to me - I know that's what's happening in the real world when I drive.
That and 24 hour time on all my clocks - #1 son couldn't care less, but #2 has embraced it. "Ugh, what's the "real" time? :o
Quote from: stillamarine on June 17, 2016, 11:47:19 PM
I'm not even a pilot and the first thought I had was "Uhhhh you navigate."
No, the FIRST thing you do is Fly The Bloody Airplane!!!!! Then you navigate.
Because if you crash, you won't have to worry about navigating...
Quote from: etodd on June 19, 2016, 03:34:14 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 19, 2016, 04:21:27 AM
^ Shockingly so - people these days do not need to even know which way is North,
I'm one of the odd ones in my group in that I always switch the G1000 to North Up mode. Same with Foreflight on my iPad. I like the screen to match how I've always read maps. It really helps situational awareness (at least to me).
+1 "Up North" also helps keep me oriented for nearby airports, obstacles, and etc. etc. etc. Also, if I HAVE to go to paper the transition is quicker. FWIW, it's surprising just how disconcerting that transition can be when it becomes necessary in an operational environment. It's usually very unexpected.
Quote from: PHall on June 19, 2016, 04:44:03 PM
Quote from: stillamarine on June 17, 2016, 11:47:19 PM
I'm not even a pilot and the first thought I had was "Uhhhh you navigate."
No, the FIRST thing you do is Fly The Bloody Airplane!!!!! Then you navigate.
Because if you crash, you won't have to worry about navigating...
Guess that's why I'm not a pilot! I never said the first thing you do is navigate. I said my first thought to the OPs question was.......
But thanks.
As a result of some high profile accidents in recent years, in which flight crews misinterpreted what computers and flight instruments reported, and reacted incorrectly, a fourth step to the basic rules has been suggested:
Situate (for situational awareness), aviate, navigate, communicate
Mike
It never hurts to be prepared, but WRT the original article, you're more likely to lose GPS because your receiver dies than from something going wrong with GPS itself.
Map, compass (should be one on the panel), stopwatch (clock), pre-planned route you should know where you are at all times. On a non-planned route or if you have to deviate use visible features to get your bearing and continue with your map, compass and watch method. You should know how fast you're flying and at what heading. This is the same way ships, subs and pre-GPS pilots would navigate.
An interesting topic bring up considering that the Navy was planning on jamming GPS signal until it was cancelled. Although it was advised well in advance and the fact that the military does this occasionally throughout the year, this advisory seems to have sparked some interest among backpackers as well as pilots.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3630029/What-Government-testing-Secret-California-tests-black-GPS-six-hours-day.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3630029/What-Government-testing-Secret-California-tests-black-GPS-six-hours-day.html)
Cancelled:
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/june/08/navy-cancels-planned-gps-outage-in-southern-california (https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/june/08/navy-cancels-planned-gps-outage-in-southern-california)
http://www.aviationpros.com/blog/12220112/navy-cancels-gps-outage-that-could-impact-flights-in-california (http://www.aviationpros.com/blog/12220112/navy-cancels-gps-outage-that-could-impact-flights-in-california)
Here's a direct link to the published GPS interference testing dates: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/gps/gpsnotices/GPS_Interference.pdf (http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/gps/gpsnotices/GPS_Interference.pdf)
And more general information
http://www.gps.gov/support/user/ (http://www.gps.gov/support/user/)
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=gpsServiceInterruptions (http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=gpsServiceInterruptions)
Mike
Quote from: raivo on June 20, 2016, 10:15:34 AM
It never hurts to be prepared, but WRT the original article, you're more likely to lose GPS because your receiver dies than from something going wrong with GPS itself.
The relatively rare instances that the GPS signal becomes corrupted or pulled 'off line' by one of the military services is a very strong argument for doing a navigation 'skill' and 'adequacy' check. There are many parts of the US where loss of the magenta line can create big time possibilities for getting lost (or as the early 19th Century frontiersman Jim Bridger described it, becoming "a mite bewildered"). In our 'bewilderment' we really don't want to wander into any one of the numerous restricted areas, frequent TFRs, or other places where the least of our worries might be loss of our pilot privileges and a black mark on our clean record. I frequently hear pilots say "Oh, I've got a second iPad..." or "if my 'honeysuckle GPS' stops working I'll use my panel mounted avidoneit" for my backup. Frankly, that's not good enough.
Having had 3 in flight GPS failures, I have to say it wasn't a big deal since I was VFR at the time... I was on a practice approach one time when we got the RAIM failure. The other 2 times were just generally flying around when we lost signal (totally, and never got it back). Looking out the window does wonders for finding your way around. :-)
However, having had so many failures in my few flight hours (310 total) makes me quite leery of GPS in IMC (well, or any IMC flying with VORs going away, etc...).
I would have started asking "Who's after me?" after 3 failures...
;D