CAP Talk

Greetings All:

Today the President's Administration has issued a Letter of Directive to all School Districts in the United States regarding the rights of transgender students. No longer will a transgender student need to provide any medical documentation or psychiatric documentation to be declared transgender. A statement from a parent is enough. The transgender student may use any facilities, restroom, locker room, etc. based completely on the gender that they identify with. Thus directive states that school districts must accept this statement regardless of what a birth certificate or State issued ID says on the gender. School Districts that fail to comply risk the loss of Federal funds, and can and will be charged with discrimination.

It is only a matter of time before we have Cadets that identify with another gender request to be billeting with the gender that they identify with rather than what it says on their birth certificate.

How do we handle this. It has been brought up here before, I know, but will little real help given.

Please keep it respectful, ALL

Is this directive going to cover schools in the event some type of incident happens? 

Schools are at risk all the time of losing federal funds for one thing or another.  Honestly this is something that would be hard to enforce.

I would guess we "handle" the situation like any other.  How do we deal with gay/lesbian cadets?   I'm really not sure what is to be done, except to insure cadets are safe from physical harm/abuse. I understand NHQ is fine tuning CPP, so I guess we'll know what the "higher ups" tell us...

We follow the rules, regulations, and policies of the Civil Air Patrol.  Whatever letter sent to school Districts have zero bearing on what we, as CAP, do.  The obvious exception is for those units that meet in school facilities.

Just hope for the best. If we're lucky, no huge messes will occur. As far as I know, we can't do much about this rather touchy subject.

As far as I understand, CAP, while Congressionally chartered, is a private organization (Much like the BSA and their Gay leader issue). That means, barring some directive from the government, we have our own rules, that we must and will follow.

Quote from: Hummingbird on May 13, 2016, 05:53:18 PM
As far as I know, we can't do much about this rather touchy subject.

Not true.  We can do whatever we need or want to to to deal with the subject.  What those decisions are, I don't know, and what the consequences will be will take time to get figured out.

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:18:24 PM
As far as I understand, CAP, while Congressionally chartered, is a private organization (Much like the BSA and their Gay leader issue). That means, barring some directive from the government, we have our own rules, that we must and will follow.

Schools do not exist within federal jurisdiction.  This directive is predicated upon accepting federal funds.  There would be nothing stopping POTUS from making it a general rule for any organization that accepts federal funds.

^^^ And since we get money from the Air Force, we get Federal Funds. This could make life very interesting.

Quote from: JeffDG on May 13, 2016, 07:16:26 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:18:24 PM
As far as I understand, CAP, while Congressionally chartered, is a private organization (Much like the BSA and their Gay leader issue). That means, barring some directive from the government, we have our own rules, that we must and will follow.

Schools do not exist within federal jurisdiction.  This directive is predicated upon accepting federal funds.  There would be nothing stopping POTUS from making it a general rule for any organization that accepts federal funds.

So...barring some directive from the government, we have our own rules, that we must and will follow?

I would say it also depends which Wing you are in...Several States have Transgender protection laws in place. Our rules can not violate local, state or federal law, am I correct?

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on May 13, 2016, 05:21:13 PM
It is only a matter of time before we have Cadets that identify with another gender request to be billeting with the gender that they identify with rather than what it says on their birth certificate.

How do we handle this.

Two issues: on the letter issued this week, we don't "handle this" at all. Especially since this opinion letter on Title IX does NOT CARRY THE FORCE OF LAW, I would say that we, CAP, don't have a dog in this fight, which is between the states and local governments and the lame duck administration. All outgoing administrations (of all parties) seem to want to push non-legislative executive orders in order to bolster their "legacy" (especially where its a weak one), and this strategic letter is squarely aimed at putting pressure on state and local governments to force them to change to meet this administrations expectations.


CAP units will continue to comply with the legalities of the counties, parishes, and states in which they are chartered, regardless of nondirective letters from DC, until such time as the laws change in that area, when we would have to comply. But our exposure to any required change from this instance is limited - in essence, if we have a hypothetical school chartered Squadron and the local municipality caves to this pressure and changes their law, that unit would end up meeting in a school building which then has men legally allowed to enter womens restroom/locker rooms and vice versa. That FACILITY change should not impact CAP's existing CPP policy, though... all cadets will be protected - confused sexual identity or normal identity - per:


CAPR 52-10 (C1) 17 FEBRUARY 2014 3
1-2. Definitions
c. Sexual Abuse. Building upon the definition of "abuse" in the paragraph above, cadet sexual abuse includes
(4) sexual penetration, sexual touching, or non-contact sexual acts such as exposure or voyeurism.



So, on the other issue which you've mentioned (overnight billeting), there's no linkage whatsoever that I can see to this letter. CAP has a policy to protect cadets and reduce liability and we are executing to it, and its been discussed to death.  Nothing new here.

1. Check those legal IDs on recruitment as required to validate ALL new member applications,
2. Sign those encampment applications after reviewing for accuracy,
3. Require supporting legal documentation if there's any change, and finally
4. Billet cadets by their legal sex of record and supervise them to prevent abuse IAW the above cited paragraph, regardless of their request or subjective feelings.


V/R
Spam

^^^^^^^^^^ With respect Spam, the Courts in this country as well as the Executive Branch, have said and are now actively saying that a person that is transgender does have those rights, and that those rights will be enforced.

I am not saying a I agree or disagree. I am saying what it is. Hiding behind 52-10 won't save the Organization in Court

Spam is correct. This directive from the outgoing president is not law nor affects CAP. Unless the current laws, Air Force instructions, or CAP regulations change, we are not required to do anything to respond to this directive or change our current policies and procedures.

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on May 13, 2016, 05:21:13 PM
How do we handle this. It has been brought up here before, I know, but will little real help given.

Unfortunately, no additional "real help" can be given until we (as a society) iron out our personal opinions on such a topic.  This is immediately evident by Spam's careful choice of words such as "confused" vs "normal" and "caves to this pressure", which also presummably states his personal opinions on this topic and our current state of politics.

As discussed in the past, I doubt any one (people on this forum in general) is really ready to have a true rationale conversation in which others will be willing to change his/her minds:  See for the meaning in which I use rationale http://twentytwowords.com/a-flowchart-to-help-you-determine-if-youre-having-a-rational-discussion/ (http://twentytwowords.com/a-flowchart-to-help-you-determine-if-youre-having-a-rational-discussion/)

How do we (as CAP) handle this general topic?  When the necessary time comes, talk with legal and your command, which should communicate with National and their legal to determine the best course of action.  Until then, as Ned Lee has pointed out, CAP goes by what the legal gender (as defined by their state government) of the person is.

Does this letter have any immediate effect on our organization?  No as we are not a school, let alone a school that accepts federal funding.  If the current administration, the USAF, or CAP, Inc tells us that we must comply with this a broader definition, then that will be a different story.     

As a member of the LGBT community, I am as uncertain as most of you are on what the "right" answer is. The answer will likely evolve over time, but I share in the struggle on how I will interact with cadets and parents if/when this comes up.

Some background on me:
As a 19 year old entering the Air Force in 1986, I struggled with accepting myself and really thought that if I kept trying to 'be straight' that I would eventually be okay, which it turned out I was...  okay that is...  not straight.  :)   I went on to have a very successful three years on Active Duty in the AF, so much so that I Palace Chased (allowed to get out early to go back to school return as an officer) in 1989.  It was in the AF were I found my voice, my confidence, and my extended AF family... and I was all in, USAF for life.

The flaw in my grand plan was that once I was in college, and in an environment that didn't shun the idea of being different, I finally accepted that I could not change something so deep to the core of who I was, and in that moment I discovered both a new profound freedom (to love someone) and a terrible loss (never being able to return to the AF family, including my membership in the Civil Air Patrol).

The reason I am sharing this is that _even_ in the middle of that loss and disappointment, I would not have said that the ban on LGBT people should be lifted overnight.  Of course from a personal point of view I didn't have any reservations that LGBT people should be allowed to serve, but one of the most profound tenets of the military is that the whole comes before the individual.  The military is not a proving ground for social engineering.  Before any commander, worth their salt, would introduce new dynamics into a military unit there would need to be training, leadership, understanding, and trust developed. 

And while the Civil Air Patrol is not the military, I think the same approach of training, leadership, understanding, and trust being developed will be the source of  each and every member of our organization experiencing our core values in action. 

I'm not sure when NHQ started reviewing and working on this, but I know they are and I trust that they will create a policy and directive that reflects our core values. In the meantime, if/when questions and/or concerns come up, I will use our core values to find a place to stand:

Excellence: The willingness to work on creating the best environment for our members...

Respect: Being willing to see other points of view, and finding shared commitments within each...

Volunteer Service: Giving of yourself, and fighting for others, even when the issue does not impact you directly...

Integrity: Standing up for fairness, honesty, and another persons dignity.

It takes courage, compassion, and a whole lot of character to live a life of our core values. It's something that has to be manage moment to moment, and I admit that I fail at it all the time -- but I am willing to be responsible for the impact that it has on other people and I'm willing to be called out and held to account for what I do (and don't do).  Because the other option is to not be responsible, not be accountable, and not be someone that others can count on.

^^^^^^^^^ Capt. You indeed Sir are a man of Integrity and courage and I take my hat off to you Sir. May my own sons have your courage. You have a place at my table anytime, home or my Squadron

We've discussed this very topic a few times here, of course.  And thank you for the calm, reasoned discussion.

We will be hosting a Learning Lab at the National Conference that will touch on this and related issues:

CP06: Be an Ally: Supporting GLTB Cadets.  I'll be there, and I personally invite all interested folks to attend.  One of the presenters will be Ms.  Eva Walton Kendrick, a staffer for the Human Rights Campaign and an acknowledged expert in the field.  I'll get to speak a bit too. 


Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Manager

Capt Robb Ottenhoff...indeed NHQ has been working on this and have been since 2013. 

Thank you for the annotation on the Core Values...it is/was "spot on".

As the Chief of the CAP Chaplain Corps - Ch, Col Jay Hughes -- is prone to say, "Every decision is a Core Values decision".      CAP has certain policies already in place (and I am certain will continue to expand on them) that apply to all members of the organization -- and the common bond that all our members share are the Core Values.   Applying these Core Values to our personal and professional lives assure that the value, the dignity, the contribution, and the well-being of all CAP members will be sustained. 

I look forward to attending the CP06 Session (unless it conflicts with a session that I am participating in).  If not, I am sure that Ned and I will do some catching up.

Quote from: LSThiker on May 13, 2016, 08:46:31 PM

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on May 13, 2016, 05:21:13 PM
How do we handle this. It has been brought up here before, I know, but will little real help given.

Unfortunately, no additional "real help" can be given until we (as a society) iron out our personal opinions on such a topic.  This is immediately evident by Spam's careful choice of words such as "confused" vs "normal" and "caves to this pressure", which also presummably states his personal opinions on this topic and our current state of politics.

Hmm, well, that's a good point, LST. We're all a product of our upbringing, and my intent of the use of the word "confused" could equally have been met by "undecided", or some other word indicating a lack of a stable sex identity. Adolescent self identity being a moving target, was my thought there, and CAP needs to not intrude either pro or con, except to keep the lid on with respect to the CPP. Note, please, how I used those words in context: that ALL of our cadets, of whatever identity, should be protected. I'm probably not as reactionary as you might suspect in this regard, nor as closed minded towards the varied backgrounds and beliefs of my fellow men (fellow Trekkers out there, look up "IDIC").  I'm also sympathetic to those who desire to serve our nation, from any walk of life or background, and I had a guy "in the life" next to my wife and I on the altar at my wedding. I continue to have close friendships with such friends with whom we agree to respectfully debate, and more often than not, agree.  A couple of them have repeatedly used the word "confused" to me referring to their adolescent struggles with identity, so that's where I was coming from. No offense intended.


Yet... we're neither the military nor are we a paid employer, but rather a volunteer group standing in loco parentis of minors in the middle of their teen developmental years, responsible to our parent customers first, of all possible earthly customers.  We've no business AT ALL advocating or ministering to our adolescent members in terms of helping them question, validate, "assert", or "fix" their sexual identity, either heterosexual OR homosexual. Not. Our. Job. It's not part of our "health services" mission, nor of our Chaplain mission, as these discussions should rightfully be left to the parents, our customers, even if we disagree with their family beliefs and/or if we disagree with their raising of their children.
. Neither the State, nor CAP, owns those minor cadets - we need to stay out of it.


It equally IS our job to ensure that not one of our members faces harassment, discrimination from participation in federally funded CAP activities, etc. subject to reasonable efforts on the behalf of CAP to accommodate their needs.


I do hope that our leadership will thoughtfully discuss reinforce both of those points in the upcoming "Be an Ally" session, and any resulting changes to policy. I absolutely would support to the hilt any efforts to update and improve our nondiscrimination training - and my offer still stands, Ned, to help write AEO modules for example on "the changing face of aerospace" as I've done with presentations for SWE.

Should we end up going beyond ensuring equal protection as part of the CPP, towards inventing some sort of program to reach out to and validate or encourage questioning youth to pursue their sexual development (along whatever lines), I feel that would split our membership irreparably, and lead to a massive schism in our program. Were I to find as a parent of cadets that CAP had a program which included encouraging members to pursue "you can tell me" confidential leading questions to encourage or "support" one of my dependents in "coming out", I would be seeking legal counsel immediately against CAP to stop CAP - and I'd have a darn good case, you'd have to admit, as it violates our own current CPP. We don't want to steer towards that sort of divisiveness and intrusiveness - we just want a safe, equal access playing ground for all.


V/R
Spam

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on May 13, 2016, 10:07:28 PM
^^^^^^^^^ Capt. You indeed Sir are a man of Integrity and courage and I take my hat off to you Sir. May my own sons have your courage. You have a place at my table anytime, home or my Squadron

Second that, Ma'am.  Rob, well said.

V/R
Spam

Quote from: Spam on May 14, 2016, 04:27:41 AM
Hmm, well, that's a good point, LST. We're all a product of our upbringing, and my intent of the use of the word "confused" could equally have been met by "undecided", or some other word indicating a lack of a stable sex identity. Adolescent self identity being a moving target, was my thought there, and CAP needs to not intrude either pro or con, except to keep the lid on with respect to the CPP. Note, please, how I used those words in context: that ALL of our cadets, of whatever identity, should be protected. I'm probably not as reactionary as you might suspect in this regard, nor as closed minded towards the varied backgrounds and beliefs of my fellow men (fellow Trekkers out there, look up "IDIC").  I'm also sympathetic to those who desire to serve our nation, from any walk of life or background, and I had a guy "in the life" next to my wife and I on the altar at my wedding. I continue to have close friendships with such friends with whom we agree to respectfully debate, and more often than not, agree.  A couple of them have repeatedly used the word "confused" to me referring to their adolescent struggles with identity, so that's where I was coming from. No offense intended.

IDIC very much so.

Unfortunately, I think your personal opinion showed much more than you were hoping to.  Of course, in no way, shape, or form does any rationale person believe that we (CAP) should not protect any youth/child/cadet in our program.  Nor was it anything I disagreed with your message.  Nevertheless, in general these types of "discussions" involve too much personal opinion removing it from the "rationale" debate.  As I  pointed out in your word choice:  "cave to this pressure", "men legally allowed to enter womens restroom/locker rooms" and the "confused/normal".  I would like to point out that men are not being legally allowed to enter women's restrooms, rather transgender women are being allowed to enter women's restrooms and vice versa.

QuoteWe've no business AT ALL advocating or ministering to our adolescent members in terms of helping them question, validate, "assert", or "fix" their sexual identity, either heterosexual OR homosexual. Not. Our. Job.

QuoteShould we end up going beyond ensuring equal protection as part of the CPP, towards inventing some sort of program to reach out to and validate or encourage questioning youth to pursue their sexual development (along whatever lines), I feel that would split our membership irreparably, and lead to a massive schism in our program.

I agree that CAP should not be "advocating or ministering" to our members regarding transgender, nor did the OP suggest such a thing.  Has anyone in CAP even suggested inventing such a program to encourage or validate sexual development?  Or "going beyond ensuring equal protection"?  I have never heard, seen, or read any such idea, suggestion, or hearsay and would welcome your evidence of such.  Therefore, I am not quite sure where such a comment fits into the discussion.  The only thing I have read, heard, discussed, etc is creating a policy that promotes equal protection of transgender cadets, which I guess you could flimsy extend to mean encouraging or validating their sexual identity.  That is, if CAP accepts the gender identity of a transgender youth, then CAP must be encouraging or validating (falsely I might add) their sexual identity.  After all, if CAP accepts a male youth as a male, then CAP would also be encouraging and/or validating their sexual identity as well.     

I am also not sure how we jumped from gender identity to sexual identity.  The two are different.  Gender identity refers to whether the person identifies as "male" or female", while sexual identity refers to their conception of romantic attraction for which gender.  It is actually different than sexual orientation, but for this board I will just keep sexual identity and sexual orientation as the same.  Therefore, a transgender person can be either heterosexual or homosexual as much as a cis-gender person can be heterosexual or homosexual.   

Quote from: LSThiker on May 14, 2016, 05:26:03 AM

Unfortunately, I think your personal opinion showed much more than you were hoping to.  <snip> As I  pointed out in your word choice:  "cave to this pressure", "men legally allowed to enter womens restroom/locker rooms" and the "confused/normal".  I would like to point out that men are not being legally allowed to enter women's restrooms, rather transgender women are being allowed to enter women's restrooms and vice versa.

... The only thing I have read, heard, discussed, etc is creating a policy that promotes equal protection of transgender cadets, which I guess you could flimsy extend to mean encouraging or validating their sexual identity. 

Well, first, I want to ask why the repeated mentions - you're seemingly trying to demonize my personal opinion with the ad hominem attacks, as if I have some hidden agenda, or to make my language seem sinister somehow?


Then, I'd like to point out that for the issue under discussion, the administrations letter this week specifically instructs schools to ignore medical and legal documentation when honoring student claims - so YES, specific to THIS line of discussion, people ARE being allowed to enter the opposite facilities from their current physical sex. To pretend otherwise is sophistry, I think.


As to my suspicious nature:  HRC is known as a strongly left leaning homosexual activist organization with questionable adherence to the leftist principles of "tolerance" (see the anti-Republican and Christian bashing on their website, where those who disagree with them are labeled "hate groups"). The guide for changing schools is listed on their site, too. Interesting reading, and I wonder how much we will be "advised" that we're "required" to change our CAP program to support K-12 transitions, as they strongly advocate.

Time will tell. Hope I'm proven wrong, that we fence the discussion to ensuring we protect and accommodate all cadets as much as possible, but that we stay OUT of discussing sex and gender with our cadets, leaving that to parents alone.

Cheers
Spam

Quote from: Spam on May 14, 2016, 07:08:18 AM

Then, I'd like to point out that for the issue under discussion, the administrations letter this week specifically instructs schools to ignore medical and legal documentation when honoring student claims - so YES, specific to THIS line of discussion, people ARE being allowed to enter the opposite facilities from their current physical sex. To pretend otherwise is sophistry, I think.

It is not sophistry, but rather important distinctions.  Male and female refer to the biological sex.  Man and woman refer to the gender and the social constructs associated with that.  So again, no men are allowed into women's bathrooms.  Rather transgender women are allowed into women's restrooms.  However, yes, biological males that are transgender women are allowed into women's restrooms. 

Quote
As to my suspicious nature:  HRC is known as a strongly left leaning homosexual activist organization with questionable adherence to the leftist principles of "tolerance" (see the anti-Republican and Christian bashing on their website, where those who disagree with them are labeled "hate groups"). The guide for changing schools is listed on their site, too. Interesting reading, and I wonder how much we will be "advised" that we're "required" to change our CAP program to support K-12 transitions, as they strongly advocate.

And how are they relevant to this?  Are they CAP?  Are they funding or being funded by CAP?  Are they solely guiding CAP's policy on transgenderism?

I ask again, has anyone in CAP even suggested inventing such a program to encourage or validate sexual development?  Or "going beyond ensuring equal protection"?

QuoteTime will tell. Hope I'm proven wrong, that we fence the discussion to ensuring we protect and accommodate all cadets as much as possible, but that we stay OUT of discussing sex and gender with our cadets, leaving that to parents alone.

Sure, but has any one in CAP suggested that we discuss sex or gender with cadets in CAP?  Would this have been a CDI discussion? After all, asking what the gender of a person when they join is hardly a discussion of sex or gender. 

Respect is a two way street. It's easy to talk about tolerance and acceptance as long as others agree with our opinions, stances, and values. Our society is so concerned with being politically correct that many people compromise their own views and values in the name of acceptance, tolerance, and respect.

One does not have to agree with something that's against our believes in order to be respectful. Disagreeing or pointing out our own views is not disrespect, as long as we allow others to do the same. We all have different views and values and, while we should be open to dialog, that's not the same as compromising our integrity because of fear of offending someone.

We all need to be true to ourselves and our believes. That's an integral part of our core value of integrity.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 14, 2016, 01:50:33 PM
Respect is a two way street. It's easy to talk about tolerance and acceptance as long as others agree with our opinions, stances, and values. Our society is so concerned with being politically correct that many people compromise their own views and values in the name of acceptance, tolerance, and respect.

Respect is also earned. People can say what they want/feel/believe, and I'll "tolerate and accept" their right to voice their opinion, but it doesn't mean others have to respect their views.

Quote from: LSThiker on May 14, 2016, 01:41:52 PM
Sure, but has any one in CAP suggested that we discuss sex or gender with cadets in CAP?  Would this have been a CDI discussion? After all, asking what the gender of a person when they join is hardly a discussion of sex or gender.

Actually, yes, I have heard numerous CAP officers suggest that, in five Wings over three Regions over the years - North, South, and West - and I'm wary of it, now more than ever with these national events and with, apparently, inviting an activist from only one side of the argument to a sponsored National Conference event.


I have had (over 30 something years) the occasional Chaplain who felt it was a deep seated "need" and within his duty responsibility to administer a sermon within a Moral Leadership/Character Development session, to the extent where they spent an hour preaching their religious beliefs. I've also had (twice) a Chaplain/CDI (one each) who felt it his duty to hold a session preaching the "evils of homosexuality" to cadets. I've stopped these practices immediately on discovery, back briefed all hands on our EEO policy, and privately counseled the Chaplains/CDI on our policy to use the approved "Values for Living" curriculum and not to freelance with pushing their privately held beliefs on our adolescents, using the "bully pulpit" of leadership.


Similarly, I'm concerned that equally deeply held beliefs from activists on the OTHER side of the spectrum will see a "need" to administer education and counseling to our adolescents on their beliefs re, this issue. Such isn't appropriate. My personal views on these issues (and yours, everyone), are immaterial. We shouldn't allow crusaders of either camp to take over our program, and should be vigilant against the possibility.


CAP is not the venue for preaching to developing adolescents in our trust - either to tell cadets about what they need to do for their immortal souls to keep from burning, or that's it OK to mutilate their genitals to match their developing self identities. Both are parental issues, not ours. Live and let live, preserve equal access and move on to execute the mission.


V/R
Spam

Quote from: Spam on May 14, 2016, 07:42:15 PM
CAP is not the venue for preaching to developing adolescents in our trust - either to tell cadets about what they need to do for their immortal souls to keep from burning, or that's it OK to mutilate their genitals to match their developing self identities.

Didn't have to bring up circumcision did we?

Didn't!... and, Didn't!

Spam

(modified to add second "didn't"!)

Bottom line is that the only disqualifiers for membership are:

1. Felony conviction (waiverable)
2. Citizenship (waiverable)
3. Minimum age

Sexual orientation is not a reason to deny membership and hasn't been for a long time if it ever was.

We've never denied membership because of sexual orientation. That has nothing to do with the uniform you wear or the bathroom you use. We have policies in place, which must be followed regardless of personal views or agendas. I'm fine with having the discussion as long as it's a two way conversation.

So if a man is transgendered as a woman... can he wear a female uniform? 

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 15, 2016, 01:19:36 PM
So if a man is transgendered as a woman... can he wear a female uniform?

Under current policy, unless he's legally changed his gender, he would have to wear a male uniform.

I know these can spiral off out of control... but if a male has been legally changed to identify as a female do they billet with females at CAP activities?   

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 15, 2016, 01:19:36 PM
So if a man is transgendered as a woman... can he wear a female uniform?

If something "official" like a Drivers License says he's female, yes.

Quote from: Spam on May 14, 2016, 07:42:15 PM


Time will tell. Hope I'm proven wrong, that we fence the discussion to ensuring we protect and accommodate all cadets as much as possible, but that we stay OUT of discussing sex and gender with our cadets, leaving that to parents alone.

I think we agree on far more than we disagree in this area, and I think we will probably find that even our areas of apparent disagreement are more likely semantic differences in some of the nuances of this difficult area.  For instance, the discussions to date (and scheduled for August) are indeed intensely focused on protecting and accommodating cadets and not on promoting any ideas or agendas. 

Let me start by reassuring you and others that CAP wholeheartedly agrees that the difficult task of raising children is the responsibility of the parents and other family members.  And this particularly true in this sensitive area. 

But I suspect that you would agree that CAP has a role in helping parents produce successful young adults.  (Alongside other organizations that parents and society trust to help guide young folks to success like churches, schools, organized sports, etc.)  Indeed, helping parents produce successful "former cadets" is sort of the whole point of the Cadet Program - our very reason for existence.  In my heart I know that is the precise reason that CP volunteer professionals like yourself and countless others volunteer your time and treasure.

However, I think it may go too far to suggest that CAP should never address certain issues that confront young people - particularly issues that challenge both young people and adults.

We have a character development program for a reason - to help prepare our cadets to be outstanding leaders and valued members of the community.  It would be easy to say "we should never address the delicate subject of 'X' - that should be reserved exclusively to parents."  It sure would make running a squadron easier.

But we do take on difficult topics in a sensitive age-appropriate manner in our CD program.  We talk about things as simple as using respect, pranks, hazing, and good manners, but also more challenging topics like drug use, self-esteem, being protective and inclusive for members with a disability, self-harm, privacy on-line, and having the courage to say "no."  (See the latest volume of Values for Living (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P265_002_91CF616EC6FAD.pdf), CAPP 265-2.)

Any/all of those topics are - by definition - the primary responsibility of the parents, but CAP has a role to play in supporting the parents through our CD program.

But in a larger sense, any CAP "Transgendered Policy" will be not be a single lesson plan in the next volume of Values of Living, but an important part of a broader policy aimed squarely at being welcoming and inclusive for the entire membership. 

Clearly this is a difficult and controversial subject for many Americans, and reasonable people often can hold conflicting views on what CAP's policy should be, or even whether CAP needs to have a policy in the first place.

But I'm hoping that the great majority of CAP members can agree that CAP should be a welcoming and wholesome environment for everyone that qualifies for membership.  And that's what we'll be talking about at the seminar in August.  Making our successful CP work for all of our cadets.

Will I see you in August?

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

^^^Ned...well said and I whole-heartedly concur.  It is my hope that our sessions will not be scheduled concurrently so that I can be in attendance. 

Simple question, if a genetic male cadet (i.e.  two distinct sex chromosomes (XY), called the heterogametic sex) identifies as female, which physical fitness test scale should he/she use?  :-\

Quote from: shuman14 on May 16, 2016, 06:31:13 PM
Simple question, if a genetic male cadet (i.e.  two distinct sex chromosomes (XY), called the heterogametic sex) identifies as female, which physical fitness test scale should he/she use?  :-\

What's the legal gender? There have been cases of people having X sex organs, but having the opposite chromosomes.

Quote from: shuman14 on May 16, 2016, 06:31:13 PM
Simple question, if a genetic male cadet (i.e.  two distinct sex chromosomes (XY), called the heterogametic sex) identifies as female, which physical fitness test scale should he/she use?  :-\

Since units do not have access to adequate testing facilities for DNA or chromosomal analysis, our existing policy is to be guided by the legal gender in the unit's location.  Then it's pretty easy from there.

Interestingly, under the new Active Cadet Program, the gender differences in PT standards are significantly reduced, so it is unlikely to make a significant difference either way.

Quote from: Ned on May 15, 2016, 04:43:20 PM

Quote from: Spam on May 14, 2016, 07:42:15 PM


Time will tell. Hope I'm proven wrong, that we fence the discussion to ensuring we protect and accommodate all cadets as much as possible, but that we stay OUT of discussing sex and gender with our cadets, leaving that to parents alone.

I think we agree on far more than we disagree in this area, and I think we will probably find that even our areas of apparent disagreement are more likely semantic differences in some of the nuances of this difficult area.  For instance, the discussions to date (and scheduled for August) are indeed intensely focused on protecting and accommodating cadets and not on promoting any ideas or agendas. 

Let me start by reassuring you and others that CAP wholeheartedly agrees that the difficult task of raising children is the responsibility of the parents and other family members.  And this particularly true in this sensitive area. 

But I suspect that you would agree that CAP has a role in helping parents produce successful young adults.  (Alongside other organizations that parents and society trust to help guide young folks to success like churches, schools, organized sports, etc.)  Indeed, helping parents produce successful "former cadets" is sort of the whole point of the Cadet Program - our very reason for existence.  In my heart I know that is the precise reason that CP volunteer professionals like yourself and countless others volunteer your time and treasure.

However, I think it may go too far to suggest that CAP should never address certain issues that confront young people - particularly issues that challenge both young people and adults.

We have a character development program for a reason - to help prepare our cadets to be outstanding leaders and valued members of the community.  It would be easy to say "we should never address the delicate subject of 'X' - that should be reserved exclusively to parents."  It sure would make running a squadron easier.

But we do take on difficult topics in a sensitive age-appropriate manner in our CD program.  We talk about things as simple as using respect, pranks, hazing, and good manners, but also more challenging topics like drug use, self-esteem, being protective and inclusive for members with a disability, self-harm, privacy on-line, and having the courage to say "no."  (See the latest volume of Values for Living (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P265_002_91CF616EC6FAD.pdf), CAPP 265-2.)

Any/all of those topics are - by definition - the primary responsibility of the parents, but CAP has a role to play in supporting the parents through our CD program.

But in a larger sense, any CAP "Transgendered Policy" will be not be a single lesson plan in the next volume of Values of Living, but an important part of a broader policy aimed squarely at being welcoming and inclusive for the entire membership. 

Clearly this is a difficult and controversial subject for many Americans, and reasonable people often can hold conflicting views on what CAP's policy should be, or even whether CAP needs to have a policy in the first place.

But I'm hoping that the great majority of CAP members can agree that CAP should be a welcoming and wholesome environment for everyone that qualifies for membership.  And that's what we'll be talking about at the seminar in August.  Making our successful CP work for all of our cadets.

Will I see you in August?

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

Well stated.  Character Development does touch on tricky issues and, while you can choose your timing, you can't avoid them totally.  That is part of the CP mission, we're trying to help provide cadets with the skills for being successful 'former cadets' no matter what path they choose in life.  That said...good luck at the conference, because I do sense turbulent air ahead!

Being a former cadet...I can truly say it made me different from my peers. Truly don't know what I'd be like if I wasn't in CAP through out my teens.

Catching up on the replies over the last few days (was taking an off-line vacation over the weekend)    :)

I will admit that I didn't know what I might be walking back into when I started reading today... and I was moved to see both the personal acknowledgement and the tone of the discussion remaining positive and constructive.  If the general public approaches these conversations with as much integrity as we are here, then this will be something that elevates us as a nation.

Quote from: Chappie on May 13, 2016, 10:58:47 PM
As the Chief of the CAP Chaplain Corps - Ch, Col Jay Hughes -- is prone to say, "Every decision is a Core Values decision".

I will be stealing this, with proper credit to Chaplain Hughes, and working it into my conversations every chance I get.

Quote from: Spam on May 14, 2016, 04:27:41 AM
Yet... we're neither the military nor are we a paid employer, but rather a volunteer group standing in loco parentis of minors in the middle of their teen developmental years, responsible to our parent customers first, of all possible earthly customers.

I couldn't agree more.  I strongly believe parents are CAP's first customer, even before the AF (mostly because I'm a CP guy).  But then I go further... and say that cadets are the second customer.  Before I make any tough decision, I think about what will be in the best interest of the cadet(s).  Sometimes that answer conflicts with my own pride or ego, and then I have to deal with that, but if not for the cadets, then who?  Service before self is wider than we think... 

Quote from: MSG Mac on May 15, 2016, 02:28:33 AM
Sexual orientation is not a reason to deny membership and hasn't been for a long time if it ever was.

I don't think that membership was ever official denied because of a persons sexual orientation, but in my experience there wasn't acceptance for an openly LGBT person when I was a CAP senior member (1988 - 1990) and I imagine that continued to be the case thought–out Don't Ask, Don't Tell.  I will, however, take responsibly for dropping out of CAP in 1990, because I wasn't pushed out or anything like that.  I think I just saw it as too hard to deal with all the hidden judgments and opinions -- which isn't a surprise for a 23 year old.  Now I eat "hidden judgments and opinions" for lunch!

Quote from: Ned on May 15, 2016, 04:43:20 PM
Will I see you in August?

I'm taking Ned's inquiry as an open invitation to all of us. I wasn't planning on going (conferences have always seemed to lack compelling value for the time/cost required to attend) but now I can't see how I don't go.  If we are to find a way forward, together, then I owe it to myself, my cadets, my peers (okay, everyone) to work it out to attend and participate.


Finally, thank you.  Each of you.  This thread has been a cathartic experience for me.  I look forward to meeting you all in TN in August (or maybe even sooner at NBB in July).

-r

Quote from: Robb Ottenhoff on May 17, 2016, 07:16:29 PM

Quote from: Ned on May 15, 2016, 04:43:20 PM
Will I see you in August?

I'm taking Ned's inquiry as an open invitation to all of us.

That's absolutely true.  Please come and engage.

I've been lucky enough to speak at the last several Conference's worth of Learning Labs, and nothing worries me more than designing a new Learning Lab and then not having anyone show up except for the five folks who really wanted to go to a particular OPS lab, but it was full.   :(

Quote from: Spam on May 13, 2016, 07:47:06 PM
sexual touching, or non-contact sexual acts such as exposure or voyeurism.



So, on the other issue which you've mentioned (overnight billeting), there's no linkage whatsoever that I can see to this letter. CAP has a policy to protect cadets and reduce liability and we are executing to it, and its been discussed to death.  Nothing new here.

1. Check those legal IDs on recruitment as required to validate ALL new member applications,
2. Sign those encampment applications after reviewing for accuracy,
3. Require supporting legal documentation if there's any change, and finally
4. Billet cadets by their legal sex of record and supervise them to prevent abuse IAW the above cited paragraph, regardless of their request or subjective feelings.


V/R
Spam

" Billet cadets by their legal sex of record and supervise them to prevent abuse IAW the above cited paragraph, regardless of their request or subjective feeling"

States are begining to permit individuals to change their birth certificates to their gender of choice so THAT will be their legal sex of record.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2016/05/18/the-next-frontier-bathroom-law-debate-changing-birth-certificates/JOQTFrymQbuTI0kp1eC21I/story.html?s_campaign=email_BG_TodaysHeadline&s_campaign= (http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2016/05/18/the-next-frontier-bathroom-law-debate-changing-birth-certificates/JOQTFrymQbuTI0kp1eC21I/story.html?s_campaign=email_BG_TodaysHeadline&s_campaign=)

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 07:19:50 PM

So...barring some directive from the government, we have our own rules, that we must and will follow?

Except when we don't.

That can be problematic, especially when sharing facilities such as gym lockers, open showers, etc. The legal gender on a piece of paper will not change the physical appearance that everyone will see when changing or showering.

How many parents will feel comfortable letting their daughters billet with a physical male (meaning pre-operation) just because he changed his legal gender to female. What about the transgender who if still physically female? Do we want to billet her with other male teenagers because she identifies as male?

I don't want to sound insensitive, but this is a complex issue that goes beyond legal gender, especially if the government starts allowing the legal change without the corresponding operation to change the physical appearance.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 22, 2016, 01:04:08 PM
especially if the government starts allowing the legal change without the corresponding operation to change the physical appearance.

There is no if.  State Governments, such as California, Texas, New York, etc, already recognize changes to the gender without sex reassignment surgery as long as there is an affidavit of other clinical treatment by a licensed physician or surgeon.  The Federal Government does not require a sex reassignment surgery for recognition of transgender in its employment practices as well.

There are, of course, some states that do not yet, such as Alabama, Arkansas, Hawaii, etc. 

Worth noting that the proportion of teenagers who identify themselves as transgender is small, about 1.5% in not so great surveys done in Boston and Madison, Wisconsin schools. There is no national data, but I suspect that Boston and Madison are rather more liberal than most parts of the country.

Some believe these numbers are overstated:

"And they are, after all, teenagers. "You end up with adolescents who don't read the question carefully, or who will check 'D' for everything, or will choose what they think is a humorous-response option," said Kerith Conron, a social and psychiatric epidemiologist at the Fenway Institute in Boston, which develops health programs for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people, among others."

Others claim reported because of stigma

Argued that: although numbers small; impact is high

Those who work with transgender students say that school accommodations will affect few students. But the effect for transgender students, they say, is powerful. Many studies have shown that transgender students are a particularly vulnerable group. They are disproportionately affected by bullying and have higher rates of suicide than the population at large.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/18/science/transgender-children.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/18/science/transgender-children.html)

Quote from: Ned on May 15, 2016, 04:43:20 PM

<SNIP>

But I'm hoping that the great majority of CAP members can agree that CAP should be a welcoming and wholesome environment for everyone that qualifies for membership.  And that's what we'll be talking about at the seminar in August.  Making our successful CP work for all of our cadets.

Will I see you in August?

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

The seminar/workshop is entitled: "Be An Ally: Supporting LGBT Cadets"
Date:  Saturday, August 13
Time: 1400-1500  (2:00pm - 3:00 pm)
Location: Hermitage D
   

I think we need to support ALL of our cadets regardless of gender. Not to be disrespectful or insensitive, but is their gender identity really relevant to CAP? I'm not sure it is. When wearing the CAP uniform, they are CADETS. Now, I understand some of the specific challenges transgender cadets may face, but if that needs to be addressed, it should be through policy, not a workshop.

Here is the description of the workshop:

CP06  Be an Ally: Supporting LGBT Cadets
  Saturday, 13 Aug, 1400 - 1500, Hermitage D

Presenters: Ms. Eva Walton Kendrick, Human Rights Campaign
  Curt LaFond, National Cadet Team
  Col Ned Lee, National Cadet Team

All across America, social dynamics are changing and we're seeing an increasing number of openly lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender cadets. Yet many adult volunteers lack experience mentoring LGBT youth and have questions on practical matters affecting their full inclusion. This session is an opportunity to ask questions, learn about best practices, and become a more effective ally for all cadets, especially LGBT cadets.

Quote from: Spam on May 14, 2016, 07:42:15 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on May 14, 2016, 01:41:52 PM
Sure, but has any one in CAP suggested that we discuss sex or gender with cadets in CAP?  Would this have been a CDI discussion? After all, asking what the gender of a person when they join is hardly a discussion of sex or gender.

<SNIP>

I have had (over 30 something years) the occasional Chaplain who felt it was a deep seated "need" and within his duty responsibility to administer a sermon within a Moral Leadership/Character Development session, to the extent where they spent an hour preaching their religious beliefs. I've also had (twice) a Chaplain/CDI (one each) who felt it his duty to hold a session preaching the "evils of homosexuality" to cadets. I've stopped these practices immediately on discovery, back briefed all hands on our EEO policy, and privately counseled the Chaplains/CDI on our policy to use the approved "Values for Living" curriculum and not to freelance with pushing their privately held beliefs on our adolescents, using the "bully pulpit" of leadership.

<SNIP>


CAP is not the venue for preaching to developing adolescents in our trust - either to tell cadets about what they need to do for their immortal souls to keep from burning, or that's it OK to mutilate their genitals to match their developing self identities. Both are parental issues, not ours. Live and let live, preserve equal access and move on to execute the mission.

<SNIP>

V/R
Spam

Spam....sorry that I missed this post from a few weeks ago.   

First of all, it pains me to hear that members of the Chaplain Corps -- at times -- step out of the lane that they are supposed to be in when it comes to facilitating a Character Development session. 

Secondly, I applaud you for holding them accountable and pointing out what the regs/CAP policy require of them.

You bet, sir. By and large, over three decades, it has been the rare exception that I've seen a member (esp. a Chaplain) do this.


I have to say, giving equal time here, I'm just as concerned that this pending guest speaker will impact our program by introducing concepts of how CAP leaders should "mentor" these types of cadets.

I went to her organizations website, and, reading through their rather strident activist literature, I find that they push educators and youth workers to encourage minor students in their disability and deviancy, even to the point where one of their published guides advocates concealing such encouragement from the students parents.

If that's "mentoring", we need none of it.  It is equally as inappropriate for us as pushy religious canvassing or partisan political harangues in uniform. We need to limit these proselytizing fishing trips, and merely ensure that our cadets of all disabilities, faiths (and no faiths), genders and ethnicities are given equal access to CAP programs - but that we don't sanction or "mentor" behaviors behind parents backs as a departure from our policy of transparency.


Chaser has the right of it. Equal access for all - hands off with the counseling and mentoring on topics like this.


V/R
Spam

I hear ya'...and I know where you are coming from.  But based on my personal and professional knowledge of Col Ned Lee -- as well as Curt LeFond -- I don't believe that this one hour workshop will be a "fishing expedition" or a proselytizing event.  These individuals have a passion for cadet programs -- and I don't believe that they are giving "equal time" to this speaker.   I trust that she will be a resource assisting in "best practices", answering questions...Keeping within the description of the workshop.

As a CAP Chaplain, I am entrusted with the responsibility to serve ALL members of CAP.   This has made me to move outside my "comfort" zone and I have had to learn more on other faith group practices, special needs (behavioral/physical), resiliency issues, and the list can go on.  This is an area that I am not familiar with...and if a workshop offered to assist me to better serve our members...cadets (and seniors alike), it is something that I am interested in attending. 

I do "mentor" cadets...that falls within the purview of a member of the Chaplain Corps.  I certainly don't want to be one of those chaplains who spend the time CD time preaching on "the evils of homosexuality" but would welcome receiving information or resources on how to be able to better serve a LGBT cadet.

So now CAP brings in activists to teach members how to accept certain types of cadets?  "Let me point out all the ways Im different so I can be the same."  Lay out the rules, and follow them.   There is a guy wearing a female uniform running around my state, and everyone just goes about their business.  Establish guidelines for cadet activities... how does a male cadet, who thinks hes a female cadet take a shower, what bathroom does he/she use, etc.  Many of you are very excited about all of this its pretty obvious.  Many are not.  Myself included.  But Im smart enough to not be a jerk or treat anyone in a manner that is unprofessional.  If you think some class taught by an activist is going to bring me to the point of accepting it beyond a mental health issue, that will not happen.  CAP has always had gay cadets.  I was a cadet with gay cadets, been in the military with guys who everyone knew was gay and of course have worked in LE with gay people, I have family members who are gay and we all get along.  The concept of transgender cadets in CAP and how to accommodate them is something that needs to be established in policy.  Once that is established, you treat them accordingly.  Gender Dysphoria is classified as a mental health issue.  You wont find a rational person anywhere who doesn't believe that its a mental health issue.  That doesn't mean you are dangerous or unable to live life.  But so are many other issues people deal with.  You would be better off and have better credibility having a psychologist teach your seminar than a gay rights/religious activist with a degree in "Southern History".  Lay out the policies, and people can choose to comply or move on from CAP.  The person you have decided to bring in is a salesperson.   

I just did a search of the term "transgender" on the boards and it looks like the earliest discussion on the subject is from 2007. That's 9 years. I'm pretty sure that is long enough to come up with a balanced policy to address the matter. And without bringing a snakeoil selling SJW into the mix. FlyingPig made some good points.

So, the question is, why has national been unable or unwilling to develop and field a coherent policy on this matter for the past decade?

Quote from: Chappie on June 08, 2016, 01:49:14 PM
I certainly don't want to be one of those chaplains who spend the time CD time preaching on "the evils of homosexuality" but would welcome receiving information or resources on how to be able to better serve a LGBT cadet.

It is wrong for any member to preach about "the evils of homosexuality", just like it is also wrong to preach about supporting LGBT views. It just doesn't have a place in CAP.

Cadets are cadets and should be treated as such regardless of gender, gender preference, or gender identity. Again, I'm not trying to be offensive or incentive, but I just don't see how this helps CAP.

I'm supportive of all of our cadets and senior members. My personal views are irrelevant when it comes to things like this. But I'm deeply concerned about a CAP workshop entitled "Be an Ally: Supporting LGBT Cadets". Are we also having another workshop for those who disagree with the views being discussed on that workshop? Probably not.

We all need to exercise our core value of respect without furthering any agendas one way or another. I respect Col Ned Lee and Curt LeFond. I know how deeply they care about CAP and the Cadet Programs. But I still don't think this workshop is prudent. I think we need to continue promoting our core values and leave all other considerations out. They just don't have a place in CAP.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 07, 2016, 07:57:18 PMI think we need to support ALL of our cadets regardless of gender.

To be clear, no one is suggesting otherwise. This is a very common response to identity-related awareness efforts (e.g., "all lives matter"). I understand the sentiment, but would also suggest that maybe LGBT cadets see the world through a different lens.

If you are part of a cultural subgroup that has traditionally been marginalized, and now society is pushing to mainstream the existence of that subgroup, there is bound to be friction. There's a continuum -- exclusion, closeted participation, open secret, begrudging acceptance, all the way to "normal and totally a non-issue". We're not at that last phase yet. When we are, then yes, we will support all of our cadets and there will be no need to call it out.

I'd say today, we're at that last phase with female cadets. But we weren't always. We have female senior members participating today who were not allowed to do things as cadets because they were female. And I bet as gender integration was becoming a thing 30 years ago, people used the same arguments then to suppress the discussion that are being used today vis-a-vis LGBT cadets.

I'd like to think we're also at the "totally a non-issue" phase today with race and ethnicity as well. We're probably still not there with religion, when the religion in question is Islam.

So yes, the ideal is we support all of our cadets, and they all receive equal treatment under our regulations and bylaws, and their gender, race, creed, sexual orientation, etc. are totally not an issue to participation in any way. But I don't believe that's actually 100% true yet, and until it is, it's not inappropriate to have a workshop at the national conference that helps to move us, as an organization, along my aforementioned integration continuum.

Quote from: dwb on June 08, 2016, 02:34:43 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 07, 2016, 07:57:18 PMI think we need to support ALL of our cadets regardless of gender.

To be clear, no one is suggesting otherwise. This is a very common response to identity-related awareness efforts (e.g., "all lives matter"). I understand the sentiment, but would also suggest that maybe LGBT cadets see the world through a different lens.

If you are part of a cultural subgroup that has traditionally been marginalized, and now society is pushing to mainstream the existence of that subgroup, there is bound to be friction. There's a continuum -- exclusion, closeted participation, open secret, begrudging acceptance, all the way to "normal and totally a non-issue". We're not at that last phase yet. When we are, then yes, we will support all of our cadets and there will be no need to call it out.

I'd say today, we're at that last phase with female cadets. But we weren't always. We have female senior members participating today who were not allowed to do things as cadets because they were female. And I bet as gender integration was becoming a thing 30 years ago, people used the same arguments then to suppress the discussion that are being used today vis-a-vis LGBT cadets.

I'd like to think we're also at the "totally a non-issue" phase today with race and ethnicity as well. We're probably still not there with religion, when the religion in question is Islam.

So yes, the ideal is we support all of our cadets, and they all receive equal treatment under our regulations and bylaws, and their gender, race, creed, sexual orientation, etc. are totally not an issue to participation in any way. But I don't believe that's actually 100% true yet, and until it is, it's not inappropriate to have a workshop at the national conference that helps to move us, as an organization, along my aforementioned integration continuum.

Though I know the activists want to frame it this way, I reject the idea that the issue being discussed here, which involves individual choices and behaviors, is on par with the struggles of women and minorities in history.

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 02:50:43 PM
Though I know the activists want to frame it this way, I reject the idea that the issue being discussed here, which involves individual choices and behaviors, is on par with the struggles of women and minorities in history.

You are welcome to have your views, but it doesn't change the facts or the science that disagrees with them.

Sorry, but at this point in time there is no conclusive fact or science with definite answers on anything.

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 02:50:43 PMThough I know the activists want to frame it this way, I reject the idea that the issue being discussed here, which involves individual choices and behaviors, is on par with the struggles of women and minorities in history.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 08, 2016, 03:08:33 PMSorry, but at this point in time there is no conclusive fact or science with definite answers on anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

There absolutely is a body of science on the nature of sexual orientation. To frame it as merely an "individual choice", like whether you prefer Coke or Pepsi, is intellectually dishonest.

Quote from: dwb on June 08, 2016, 03:22:25 PM

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 02:50:43 PMThough I know the activists want to frame it this way, I reject the idea that the issue being discussed here, which involves individual choices and behaviors, is on par with the struggles of women and minorities in history.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 08, 2016, 03:08:33 PMSorry, but at this point in time there is no conclusive fact or science with definite answers on anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

There absolutely is a body of science on the nature of sexual orientation. To frame it as merely an "individual choice", like whether you prefer Coke or Pepsi, is intellectually dishonest.

And I think comparing it to the struggles of African Americans and women is intellectually dishonest. At best.

Well, we weren't talking about the sum of all human history. We're talking about CAP.

Your "individual choice" remark told me everything I need to know. You and I won't reach consensus on any facet of this debate.

Quote from: dwb on June 08, 2016, 03:22:25 PM

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 02:50:43 PMThough I know the activists want to frame it this way, I reject the idea that the issue being discussed here, which involves individual choices and behaviors, is on par with the struggles of women and minorities in history.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 08, 2016, 03:08:33 PMSorry, but at this point in time there is no conclusive fact or science with definite answers on anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

There absolutely is a body of science on the nature of sexual orientation. To frame it as merely an "individual choice", like whether you prefer Coke or Pepsi, is intellectually dishonest.

Wikipedia is hardly a reliable source. The fact remains that, while there are many studies, there is still much disagreement on the matter. And for the record, I'm not promoting or advocating for one view over another. I'm saying it's not CAP's place or role to do so.

Quote from: dwb on June 08, 2016, 03:40:24 PM
Well, we weren't talking about the sum of all human history. We're talking about CAP.

Your "individual choice" remark told me everything I need to know. You and I won't reach consensus on any facet of this debate.

Wise of you to realize that.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 08, 2016, 03:43:05 PMWikipedia is hardly a reliable source.

I almost put a disclaimer in my last post, because I knew you would say this.

Scroll down to the "References" section. What's that? Oh, a gigantic list of research papers, many from peer-reviewed journals.

I wasn't quoting Wikipedia to be authoritative, but to show the existence of the research.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 08, 2016, 03:43:05 PMThe fact remains that, while there are many studies, there is still much disagreement on the matter.

This is called manufacturing doubt. It's how the tobacco companies denied the link between smoking and cancer.

I get that there are social/political/religious disagreements. No argument there. And in the political system those arguments can and should be had.

But to assert that there isn't a scientific consensus view is just wrong. http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation.pdf (http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation.pdf)

Asserting "scientific consensus" is itself a political tactic meant to stifle debate.  Also, I didn't see any "science" about the topic of this thread in any of your cites.

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 04:06:03 PM
Asserting "scientific consensus" is itself a political tactic meant to stifle debate.  Also, I didn't see any "science" about the topic of this thread in any of your cites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#References


You can stick your head in the sand, put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and make noise, but it doesn't change anything.


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e0/7d/5a/e07d5a43299835291e04931349a8f42e.jpg)

My take on it is, is that no matter what, at the end of the day, we need to protect and serve all of our members as best we can.  Unfortunately, we can not accommodate everyone.  If we "have" to make an accommodation for one person to make sure that he/she does feels "comfortable/safe/non-threatend", but it makes five others feel the opposite, how does that make sense?

For example, if Cadet A is biologically male, but identifies as female, and MUST (won't use a separate facility) use the female berthing/showering areas in order to feel positive/inclusive/safe, but that makes Cadets B, D N, and X feel threatened/unsafe/etc, should we be required to tell those Cadets to suck it up?  I don't think that's right either.

Should we make accommodations to the best of our ability, of course.  Should we be proactive in dealing with this, you gosh darn right.  Should we trash on persons feelings over someone else's, not a chance.  Should we prioritize the importance of one persons feelings over another groups, not necessarily. 

My personal feelings are what they are, and I can disagree with where things are headed.  That doesn't mean that I can't- and more importantly won't support all members of CAP, regardless of identity, orientation, gender, ethnicity, or religion.  Because I have and I will.

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:19:12 PM

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 04:06:03 PM
Asserting "scientific consensus" is itself a political tactic meant to stifle debate.  Also, I didn't see any "science" about the topic of this thread in any of your cites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#References


You can stick your head in the sand, put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and make noise, but it doesn't change anything.


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e0/7d/5a/e07d5a43299835291e04931349a8f42e.jpg)

You do realize "sexual orientation" is not the topic of this thread.....

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:19:12 PM

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 04:06:03 PM
Asserting "scientific consensus" is itself a political tactic meant to stifle debate.  Also, I didn't see any "science" about the topic of this thread in any of your cites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#References


You can stick your head in the sand, put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and make noise, but it doesn't change anything.


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e0/7d/5a/e07d5a43299835291e04931349a8f42e.jpg)

Really, I know several homosexual people, of both genders.  Two of them, one male and one female, that were both totally straight, until they got burned by the opposite gender, then turned gay.  I also know others that are bi-sexual and changed from one type of relationships for the other.  And still I know of several others that always knew themselves as homosexual.  I also know a man, who feels that he is a Lesbian trapped in a mans body.  Can Science explain that?  I can't.

I love this topic. People who have no expertise other than what they read on the internet all become experts when it comes up.

I ask again, since this topic has been discussed here for a decade, why has national been unable or unwilling to develop and field a policy to address it? Simple, really. Anybody?

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 04:29:06 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:19:12 PM

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 04:06:03 PM
Asserting "scientific consensus" is itself a political tactic meant to stifle debate.  Also, I didn't see any "science" about the topic of this thread in any of your cites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#References (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#References)


You can stick your head in the sand, put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and make noise, but it doesn't change anything.


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e0/7d/5a/e07d5a43299835291e04931349a8f42e.jpg)

You do realize "sexual orientation" is not the topic of this thread.....

Do you?

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 02:50:43 PMThough I know the activists want to frame it this way, I reject the idea that the issue being discussed here, which involves individual choices and behaviors, is on par with the struggles of women and minorities in history.[/quote]

Quote from: THRAWN on June 08, 2016, 04:35:16 PM
I love this topic. People who have no expertise other than what they read on the internet all become experts when it comes up.

I ask again, since this topic has been discussed here for a decade, why has national been unable or unwilling to develop and field a policy to address it? Simple, really. Anybody?

People who have no expertise at all, not even any layman understanding or research spew their thoughts on the matter here quite blatantly all the time.

Quote from: RogueLeader on June 08, 2016, 04:28:29 PM
My take on it is, is that no matter what, at the end of the day, we need to protect and serve all of our members as best we can.  Unfortunately, we can not accommodate everyone.  If we "have" to make an accommodation for one person to make sure that he/she does feels "comfortable/safe/non-threatend", but it makes five others feel the opposite, how does that make sense?

For example, if Cadet A is biologically male, but identifies as female, and MUST (won't use a separate facility) use the female berthing/showering areas in order to feel positive/inclusive/safe, but that makes Cadets B, D N, and X feel threatened/unsafe/etc, should we be required to tell those Cadets to suck it up?  I don't think that's right either.

Should we make accommodations to the best of our ability, of course.  Should we be proactive in dealing with this, you gosh darn right.  Should we trash on persons feelings over someone else's, not a chance.  Should we prioritize the importance of one persons feelings over another groups, not necessarily. 

My personal feelings are what they are, and I can disagree with where things are headed.  That doesn't mean that I can't- and more importantly won't support all members of CAP, regardless of identity, orientation, gender, ethnicity, or religion.  Because I have and I will.

I made that argument as well and was told that it wasn't about people's feelings, it was about equality.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 08, 2016, 04:39:25 PM

Quote from: RogueLeader on June 08, 2016, 04:28:29 PM
My take on it is, is that no matter what, at the end of the day, we need to protect and serve all of our members as best we can.  Unfortunately, we can not accommodate everyone.  If we "have" to make an accommodation for one person to make sure that he/she does feels "comfortable/safe/non-threatend", but it makes five others feel the opposite, how does that make sense?

For example, if Cadet A is biologically male, but identifies as female, and MUST (won't use a separate facility) use the female berthing/showering areas in order to feel positive/inclusive/safe, but that makes Cadets B, D N, and X feel threatened/unsafe/etc, should we be required to tell those Cadets to suck it up?  I don't think that's right either.

Should we make accommodations to the best of our ability, of course.  Should we be proactive in dealing with this, you gosh darn right.  Should we trash on persons feelings over someone else's, not a chance.  Should we prioritize the importance of one persons feelings over another groups, not necessarily. 

My personal feelings are what they are, and I can disagree with where things are headed.  That doesn't mean that I can't- and more importantly won't support all members of CAP, regardless of identity, orientation, gender, ethnicity, or religion.  Because I have and I will.

I made that argument as well and was told that it wasn't about people's feelings, it was about equality.

Feelings are tricky. There are people who feel blacks and whites shouldn't be together. Others think Mexicans or Muslims shouldn't be judges. Your (and my) rights end at the point where they infringe on the rights of others.

Quote from: THRAWN on June 08, 2016, 04:35:16 PM
I love this topic. People who have no expertise other than what they read on the internet all become experts when it comes up.

I ask again, since this topic has been discussed here for a decade, why has national been unable or unwilling to develop and field a policy to address it? Simple, really. Anybody?

I'm certainly no expert, I just know me and my beliefs, and I report what I've experienced.

The policy is out there, you may not like the policy or how it was/was not communicated, but it is there.  Not to mention the the climate it is changing- so to speak- in this area, so the policy needs to change and adapt.  If you are that concerned with the policy/ or the lack there of in your mind, what have YOU done to correct that?  Take into consideration all the viewpoints that must be addressed in said policy, as well as all the federal, state and local laws.  I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

Quote from: RogueLeader on June 08, 2016, 04:42:00 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on June 08, 2016, 04:35:16 PM
I love this topic. People who have no expertise other than what they read on the internet all become experts when it comes up.

I ask again, since this topic has been discussed here for a decade, why has national been unable or unwilling to develop and field a policy to address it? Simple, really. Anybody?

I'm certainly no expert, I just know me and my beliefs, and I report what I've experienced.

The policy is out there, you may not like the policy or how it was/was not communicated, but it is there.  Not to mention the the climate it is changing- so to speak- in this area, so the policy needs to change and adapt.  If you are that concerned with the policy/ or the lack there of in your mind, what have YOU done to correct that?  Take into consideration all the viewpoints that must be addressed in said policy, as well as all the federal, state and local laws.  I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

We can all agree that no one here is an expert (given a lack of anyone declaring so). There's a middle ground somewhere, but it's certainly not the status quo. Never has been.

Quote from: RogueLeader on June 08, 2016, 04:42:00 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on June 08, 2016, 04:35:16 PM
I love this topic. People who have no expertise other than what they read on the internet all become experts when it comes up.

I ask again, since this topic has been discussed here for a decade, why has national been unable or unwilling to develop and field a policy to address it? Simple, really. Anybody?

I'm certainly no expert, I just know me and my beliefs, and I report what I've experienced.

The policy is out there, you may not like the policy or how it was/was not communicated, but it is there.  Not to mention the the climate it is changing- so to speak- in this area, so the policy needs to change and adapt.  If you are that concerned with the policy/ or the lack there of in your mind, what have YOU done to correct that?  Take into consideration all the viewpoints that must be addressed in said policy, as well as all the federal, state and local laws.  I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

And that's your problem. You're working off of beliefs and your limited scope experience, as opposed to the expert opinions of people that actually know what they're talking about. This is not a new issue, and in my career at multiple levels and in multiple roles, I've had to address this. Directly. Not as some rhetorical exercise on an internet message board. The policy that you're referring to, the legal ID policy, is adequate when addressing basic membership issues and  uniforms, but not quiet there when dealing with the issues that were brought up in the OP.

Deal more with fact, and less with emotion.

Quote from: THRAWN on June 08, 2016, 04:53:52 PM

Quote from: RogueLeader on June 08, 2016, 04:42:00 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on June 08, 2016, 04:35:16 PM
I love this topic. People who have no expertise other than what they read on the internet all become experts when it comes up.

I ask again, since this topic has been discussed here for a decade, why has national been unable or unwilling to develop and field a policy to address it? Simple, really. Anybody?

I'm certainly no expert, I just know me and my beliefs, and I report what I've experienced.

The policy is out there, you may not like the policy or how it was/was not communicated, but it is there.  Not to mention the the climate it is changing- so to speak- in this area, so the policy needs to change and adapt.  If you are that concerned with the policy/ or the lack there of in your mind, what have YOU done to correct that?  Take into consideration all the viewpoints that must be addressed in said policy, as well as all the federal, state and local laws.  I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

And that's your problem. You're working off of beliefs and your limited scope experience, as opposed to the expert opinions of people that actually know what they're talking about. This is not a new issue, and in my career at multiple levels and in multiple roles, I've had to address this. Directly. Not as some rhetorical exercise on an internet message board. The policy that you're referring to, the legal ID policy, is adequate when addressing basic membership issues and  uniforms, but not quiet there when dealing with the issues that were brought up in the OP.

Deal more with fact, and less with emotion.

Except where state law may contradict?

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:55:33 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on June 08, 2016, 04:53:52 PM

Quote from: RogueLeader on June 08, 2016, 04:42:00 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on June 08, 2016, 04:35:16 PM
I love this topic. People who have no expertise other than what they read on the internet all become experts when it comes up.

I ask again, since this topic has been discussed here for a decade, why has national been unable or unwilling to develop and field a policy to address it? Simple, really. Anybody?

I'm certainly no expert, I just know me and my beliefs, and I report what I've experienced.

The policy is out there, you may not like the policy or how it was/was not communicated, but it is there.  Not to mention the the climate it is changing- so to speak- in this area, so the policy needs to change and adapt.  If you are that concerned with the policy/ or the lack there of in your mind, what have YOU done to correct that?  Take into consideration all the viewpoints that must be addressed in said policy, as well as all the federal, state and local laws.  I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

And that's your problem. You're working off of beliefs and your limited scope experience, as opposed to the expert opinions of people that actually know what they're talking about. This is not a new issue, and in my career at multiple levels and in multiple roles, I've had to address this. Directly. Not as some rhetorical exercise on an internet message board. The policy that you're referring to, the legal ID policy, is adequate when addressing basic membership issues and  uniforms, but not quiet there when dealing with the issues that were brought up in the OP.

Deal more with fact, and less with emotion.

Except where state law may contradict?

That might not be as big of an issue as it may seem. Use the common areas of the laws and generate policy from them. I'm not saying that there needs to be a complicated series of regs on the issue, but a directive policy is needed.

I'm not arguing that point. NHQ is taking steps towards that, so lets see what they come up with.

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 05:02:25 PM
I'm not arguing that point. NHQ is taking steps towards that, so lets see what they come up with.

Agreed. My concern is the perception of an ever lengthening timeline...

I'm glad "no one" in this forum is trying to do activism or further an agenda.

Quote from: THRAWN on June 08, 2016, 05:08:06 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 05:02:25 PM
I'm not arguing that point. NHQ is taking steps towards that, so lets see what they come up with.

Agreed. My concern is the perception of an ever lengthening timeline...

It took a long time to revise the Cadet Protection Policy. Comparatively it was more "straight forward".

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:40:49 PM

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 08, 2016, 04:39:25 PM

Quote from: RogueLeader on June 08, 2016, 04:28:29 PM
My take on it is, is that no matter what, at the end of the day, we need to protect and serve all of our members as best we can.  Unfortunately, we can not accommodate everyone.  If we "have" to make an accommodation for one person to make sure that he/she does feels "comfortable/safe/non-threatend", but it makes five others feel the opposite, how does that make sense?

For example, if Cadet A is biologically male, but identifies as female, and MUST (won't use a separate facility) use the female berthing/showering areas in order to feel positive/inclusive/safe, but that makes Cadets B, D N, and X feel threatened/unsafe/etc, should we be required to tell those Cadets to suck it up?  I don't think that's right either.

Should we make accommodations to the best of our ability, of course.  Should we be proactive in dealing with this, you gosh darn right.  Should we trash on persons feelings over someone else's, not a chance.  Should we prioritize the importance of one persons feelings over another groups, not necessarily. 

My personal feelings are what they are, and I can disagree with where things are headed.  That doesn't mean that I can't- and more importantly won't support all members of CAP, regardless of identity, orientation, gender, ethnicity, or religion.  Because I have and I will.

I made that argument as well and was told that it wasn't about people's feelings, it was about equality.

Feelings are tricky. There are people who feel blacks and whites shouldn't be together. Others think Mexicans or Muslims shouldn't be judges. Your (and my) rights end at the point where they infringe on the rights of others.

The issue is that in this case, the two are blurred, because those "rights" are based off of feelings.

Quote from: THRAWN on June 08, 2016, 05:08:06 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 05:02:25 PM
I'm not arguing that point. NHQ is taking steps towards that, so lets see what they come up with.

Agreed. My concern is the perception of an ever lengthening timeline...

When an issue is moving as fast as this one has, particularly in the past few years, and months, the policy needs to be good- or though as "not enough".

Rights? Every member in CAP has the same rights. Why do we need a special policy?

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 08, 2016, 05:14:40 PM
Rights? Every member in CAP has the same rights. Why do we need a special policy?

Because this is not a black and white issue. And I'm not sure that "rights" is the correct term to use.

Quote from: THRAWN on June 08, 2016, 05:26:27 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 08, 2016, 05:14:40 PM
Rights? Every member in CAP has the same rights. Why do we need a special policy?

Because this is not a black and white issue. And I'm not sure that "rights" is the correct term to use.

According to some dignity is a feeling, and if a square peg doesn't fit in a round hole, we shouldn't make any square holes.

Do we have documented evidence that this is affecting our Cadet Programs or CAP as a whole?

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 05:02:25 PM
I'm not arguing that point. NHQ is taking steps towards that, so lets see what they come up with.

One thing that I can say -- having been a part of writing regulations/policies -- is that everything goes through a vetting process.  Historically...each area takes a look at what is submitted as to how it might affect them -- including CAP-USAF, etc.   And of course, legal looks it.   There is always a challenge as to how to make "one size fits all" given the size/dynamics of the various wings.   I know that we have had Chaplain Corps publications take up to 18 months or longer to get through the process.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 08, 2016, 05:30:25 PM
Do we have documented evidence that this is affecting our Cadet Programs or CAP as a whole?

Documented? I'm sure. For our overall consumption? Probably not.

Quote from: Spam on June 08, 2016, 03:49:29 AM
I have to say, giving equal time here, I'm just as concerned that this pending guest speaker will impact our program by introducing concepts of how CAP leaders should "mentor" these types of cadets.

Guest speakers come and go.  They don't impact our program, leaders like you do.  CAP has a lot of doctrine on mentoring.  We've been doing it a long time.  I don't see any changes coming down the road.

QuoteI went to her organizations website, and, reading through their rather strident activist literature, I find that they push educators and youth workers to encourage minor students in their disability and deviancy, even to the point where one of their published guides advocates concealing such encouragement from the students parents.

Jeff, I hope I'm misinterpreting that and that you don't consider our terrific GLTB cadets to be deviants or disabled.  At least I hope you don't treat them that way.

The point of a guest speaker is to bring in expert knowledge and experience from outside the organization.  Nobody wants to pay good money to hear cap leaders drone on about stuff we already know about accompanied by 110 poorly designed ppt slides.   8)

As you might surmise, essentially all of the experts in this area are folks who have formed opinions about their subject matter.  Sometimes strong opinions.  And given our lack of budget, they tend to be associated with community based organizations located close to NHQ or the meeting venue rather than UCLA professors who need air fare and large honorariums.

Quotewe don't sanction or "mentor" behaviors behind parents backs as a departure from our policy of transparency.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, but I would certainly agree that we do not mentor "behind parent's backs" in the sense of we do not get involved in family values or beliefs.  And while I rarely have had the experience of mentoring a cadet with Mom or Dad in the room, I wouldn't mind doing so.  IOW, I would never tell a cadet something that I would not be willing to say in front of their parents.  However, I do not brief Mom or Dad every time I mentor a cadet.

As I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, I honestly believe that all of us agree on essentially everything in this thread, but sometimes because of the sensitive nature of the subject matter semantic differences arise.

For example, I think all of us agree that our cadets should be treated respectfully, and that all are welcome to participate in (and benefit from) our program.  I also think we agree that GLB members, including cadets, have been in the program for many, many years, and that by and large our existing policies have provided whatever guidance is necessary.

The only new wrinkle here is developing policy to ensure that transgender cadets are welcomed and accommodated on the same basis as our other cadets.  And we will be talking about that, along with other things at the workshop.

Ned Lee

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:35:36 PM

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 04:29:06 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:19:12 PM

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 04:06:03 PM
Asserting "scientific consensus" is itself a political tactic meant to stifle debate.  Also, I didn't see any "science" about the topic of this thread in any of your cites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#References (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#References)


You can stick your head in the sand, put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and make noise, but it doesn't change anything.


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e0/7d/5a/e07d5a43299835291e04931349a8f42e.jpg)

You do realize "sexual orientation" is not the topic of this thread.....

Do you?

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 02:50:43 PMThough I know the activists want to frame it this way, I reject the idea that the issue being discussed here, which involves individual choices and behaviors, is on par with the struggles of women and minorities in history.[/quote]

I suggest you slow down to make sure you actually understand the meaning of the words you're reading.

This topic is starting a slow spin down the drain. Ease up folks.

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 06:01:13 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:35:36 PM

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 04:29:06 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:19:12 PM

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 04:06:03 PM
Asserting "scientific consensus" is itself a political tactic meant to stifle debate.  Also, I didn't see any "science" about the topic of this thread in any of your cites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#References (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#References)


You can stick your head in the sand, put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and make noise, but it doesn't change anything.


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e0/7d/5a/e07d5a43299835291e04931349a8f42e.jpg)

You do realize "sexual orientation" is not the topic of this thread.....

Do you?

Quote from: varitec on June 08, 2016, 02:50:43 PMThough I know the activists want to frame it this way, I reject the idea that the issue being discussed here, which involves individual choices and behaviors, is on par with the struggles of women and minorities in history.[/quote]

I suggest you slow down to make sure you actually understand the meaning of the words you're reading.

I could suggest a number of things, but instead I'll just bow out before I regret saying something.

A few months ago I received a call from a teen advising me that she was transgendered Female to Male, and asking if she could join.  I advised her that:
1. Meetings are open to the public and she was welcome to come
2. We have non-discrimination policies in place and value equal opportunity
3. She would be free to join, and that nothing in the "program" per se would limit her pursuit of being an outstanding CAP cadet.

With that said, however, when it comes to some uniforms, bathroom use, overnight practices, etc. I was unaware of any policies and would have to check on it.  She planned to visit but never showed up.

I checked with Wing Legal who advised me that there were no policies in place but that there was something in the works at the national level.In the absence of a specific policy she would be recognized by her biological gender.  This was before the President's proclamation about bathrooms in schools.

Whether or not anyone embraces this ideologically we will have to have some policy in place soon and training in how to deal with it.

Also, FWIW, I decided that any dialogue about the matter needed to be by email or in person with a second senior member present.  That way there would be a paper trail and witness to any conversation about the matter.

Quote from: arBar on June 08, 2016, 10:10:10 PM
I decided that any dialogue about the matter needed to be by email or in person with a second senior member present.  That way there would be a paper trail and witness to any conversation about the matter.

Good idea. 

Provided you do that with every other prospective cadet, of course.  Otherwise it might tend to look a little biased and unwelcoming.

Thank you for the work you do with our cadets.

Ned Lee

Let's say CAP allows transgender cadets to wear the uniform of the gender they identify with. Let's say CAP allows them to use the bathroom facilities for that gender, and it allows them to lodge with that gender during overnight activities. What about the other cadets who may not be comfortable with that? What about the parents? What if they're opposed to that?

On the other hand, not allowing them to use the facilities of the gender they identify with could be considered discrimination by some. Providing gender neutral facilities could prove problematic as well. So what do we do?

It's not as simple of making up some rules. This issue is too complex to be addressed by CAP policy alone. I think it should be addressed by the state or federal government. That way we have clear guidelines that must be followed by not just CAP, but every organization that deals with youth.

Leave it to the government? The people thay brought you TSA and the Post Office? Good plan.

You make a point.

Then again, CAP can't be held liable for following the law, especially if it's common practice in schools and other youth and volunteer organizations.

Which CPFT chart do they use?

Psychological identity issues don't change the physiological reality of a male identifying as female in regards to objective PT tests.

Another good point.

Quote from: arBar on June 08, 2016, 10:10:10 PM
A few months ago I received a call from a teen advising me that she was transgendered Female to Male, and asking if she could join.  I advised her that:
1. Meetings are open to the public and she was welcome to come
2. We have non-discrimination policies in place and value equal opportunity
3. She would be free to join, and that nothing in the "program" per se would limit her pursuit of being an outstanding CAP cadet.

With that said, however, when it comes to some uniforms, bathroom use, overnight practices, etc. I was unaware of any policies and would have to check on it.  She planned to visit but never showed up.

I checked with Wing Legal who advised me that there were no policies in place but that there was something in the works at the national level.In the absence of a specific policy she would be recognized by her biological gender.  This was before the President's proclamation about bathrooms in schools.

Whether or not anyone embraces this ideologically we will have to have some policy in place soon and training in how to deal with it.

Also, FWIW, I decided that any dialogue about the matter needed to be by email or in person with a second senior member present.  That way there would be a paper trail and witness to any conversation about the matter.

ArBar, it sounds like you handled that perfectly. That's only my opinion - that's how I would have handled it to that point, including ccing another CAP officer of course... I have our good pal Garibaldi copied on such messages for transparency/memo for record.


Should she hopefully eventually visit, the process is the same for ALL cadets - check their legal ID, verify that their paperwork matches that legal ID (including sex, I would point out) and that it has parental approval etc. and get them involved asap, including the Great Start curriculum, which emphasizes equal access and protection through the Wingman module (also, don't forget the annual EEO brief, which is always fun in my unit with Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, homo and heterosexuals, cadets of every race and ethnicity, and all ages!).  So, then, she would be female for the administrative and logistical purposes of CAP, despite any mental issues or alignments she may subjectively feel, until such time that she legally changes status.


As she's self reporting some mental problems, the important factor is to ensure that this is not a barrier to membership and participation, which is protected per statute and regs, unless safety issues arise for her and others, and for which we should make reasonable accommodation. Some schools for example provide the use of a private staff restroom to such students, which isn't beyond the scope of "reasonable" for most CAP activities.  When and if her legal status changes, we can take that as it comes. However, just because a minor applicant expresses a wish to be something else is not grounds to upset the entire program to accommodate a mental disorder.


ArBar, best wishes to you; stay strong and be her defender should she show renewed interest and should any other members express opposition. She's worth it.


V/R
Spam


PS, to Ned - yes, to affirm my use of the term, I do call it a disorder. I intentionally use that term, as that's what is being discussed. If it is not a disorder but rather simply is perceived as a desire to pretend against reality - and to access off-limits areas with other peoples kids - what degree of protection and accommodation is required? So, absent a designation as protected individuals with mental disorders, what basis would I have to insist on these folks' inclusion in CAP's programs. 

Yes, I consider this a deviation from the norm, by definition, just as with other body dysmorphic disorders (e.g. self mutilators and cutters, two of whom I've had as fine CAP members over the decades). They need help, but from professionals not CAP officers, and they deserve celebration for achievement in the program, but not confirmation that mental illness is a thing to celebrate and tolerate. Mental illness needs treatment, not celebration or endorsement.


PPS Ned, once again, we may disagree on specifics but again I strongly appreciate your sincerity on behalf of the cadets.  Thanks.

Quote from: Eclipse on June 09, 2016, 01:01:02 AM
Psychological identity issues don't change the physiological reality of a male identifying as female in regards to objective PT tests.

That is not entirely true.  As most states require either hormone replacement therapy or a sex reassignment surgery (which requires hormone replacement therapy afterwards), there are physiological changes that occur and there are some physiological changes that do not occur.  HRT includes the administration of estrogen, progestogens, antiandrogens, GnRH analogues, for male to female.  For female to male, the therapy includes testosterone, GnRH agonists, DMPA, and other supplements.  It depends on when the HRT was given (pre- or post-puberty), the direction of gender transition (male to female or female to male), and how long the therapy has been occuring.

For example, for a male to female, HRT will reduce muscle mass, increase breast development, redistribution of body fat from the belly to the hips.  However, it will not change characteristics such as deepening of voice (there is voice therapies and surgeries), bone density, thyroid cartilage development, width of shoulders, hair growth patterns.

For female to male, HRT will increase muscle mass, cause the development of facial and body hair, deepen the voice.  It will not change the length of arms and legs, feet size, pelvis structure, and rib cage structures. 

Will these changes entirely eliminate or provide additional advantages for something like a CPFT?  I do not know, it depends. 

There is a lack of a clear definition for "transgender" that leaves open that you can change your gender identity by the minute.  Serious transgender people are seeing a doctor and making life altering changes to their bodies.  While that would not be my choice, that is their choice and I will respect it.  By not labeling the rest of them as "serious" I do not mean to come across as disrespectful to those who have intentions of someday starting that process.  Countries have borders. Land owners have boundary lines.  Law enforcement has jurisdiction.  Sexual preference can be fluid.But gender has to have some starting point or boundary that defines it. Maybe it is as simple as a doctor's note or a parent's affidavit.  Thirteen year olds don't have drivers licenses to check against.  I just need to know whether to call the person a he or a she.

What concerns me is that without a concrete definition this is an easy excuse for people to take advantage of the label, eg.boys to see naked girls in locker rooms & such. That's been going on for ages but now they have an excuse.  Gender distinction runs through every part of our society. Rather than looking at is an an archaic thing, how about looking at through the lense of respect?  Because I respect you, I want to know how I can best accomodate you.

I'm not suggesting that every gender identity custom is to be rigorously maintained.  Customs change throughout time and location.  Men once wore wigs, women used to not wear pants, some men still wear skirts, I mean, kilts. Some men today have man-purses.  Our customs/prohibitions are sometimes silly, but they are really important to many people.

Maybe the one true solution is for everyone to go naked, then society would "get over" our sex obsession.  But that's not gonna happen.

I just want to show respect to someone without disrespecting others at the same time.  We need a national policy.  Making up our own local policy could be disastrous and litigious.

Quote from: arBar on June 09, 2016, 04:26:33 PM
I just need to know whether to call the person a he or a she.

It is perfectly acceptable to simply ask them how they would like to be addressed.  And respectful.

Quote
I just want to show respect to someone without disrespecting others at the same time.  We need a national policy. 

NHQ agrees with you.  But for the very reasons you mentioned, it is not an easy one to draft.

Quote from: Ned on June 09, 2016, 04:36:51 PM

Quote from: arBar on June 09, 2016, 04:26:33 PM
I just need to know whether to call the person a he or a she.

It is perfectly acceptable to simply ask them how they would like to be addressed.  And respectful.

That is exactly what one should do, if appropriate.  From the GLAAD website:

QuoteWhenever possible, ask transgender people which pronoun they would like you to use.
    A person who identifies as a certain gender, whether or not that person has taken hormones or had some form of surgery, should be referred to using the pronouns appropriate for that gender.

If it is not possible to ask a transgender person which pronoun is preferred, use the pronoun that is consistent with the person's appearance and gender expression.
    For example, if a person wears a dress and uses the name Susan, feminine pronouns are usually appropriate.

Quote from: arBar on June 09, 2016, 04:26:33 PM
There is a lack of a clear definition for "transgender" that leaves open that you can change your gender identity by the minute. 

There is a clear definition for transgender.  What there is not is a clear point at which a person becomes trans man or trans woman.  Generally speaking, it is when the person starts identifying with the opposite gender, such wear clothes of the opposite gender, using a pronoun of the opposite gender.  Most states require either HRT or SRS before changing the birth certificate. 

This point is being worked out at the Federal Government level, which we all know is slow.  To further slow the process, there is a lot of unknown to drafting a national policy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html)


A judge in Oregon has granted a petition allowing a person to legally choose neither sex and be classified as nonbinary: an important development for transgender Americans while civil rights and sexual identity are in the national spotlight, advocates and legal experts said.

Quote from: RNOfficer on June 14, 2016, 12:13:21 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html)


A judge in Oregon has granted a petition allowing a person to legally choose neither sex and be classified as nonbinary: an important development for transgender Americans while civil rights and sexual identity are in the national spotlight, advocates and legal experts said.

Oh good grief.   Are we really at a place in America where people are so out of touch with reality that they can't accept what biological sex they are?   And people think this is ok?    Why is this not being addressed as the mental health issue that it is?

Quote from: Flying Pig on June 14, 2016, 12:46:03 AM

Quote from: RNOfficer on June 14, 2016, 12:13:21 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html)


A judge in Oregon has granted a petition allowing a person to legally choose neither sex and be classified as nonbinary: an important development for transgender Americans while civil rights and sexual identity are in the national spotlight, advocates and legal experts said.

Oh good grief.   Are we really at a place in America where people are so out of touch with reality that they can't accept what biological sex they are?   And people think this is ok?    Why is this not being addressed as the mental health issue that it is?

Not one to normally stoke the flames, but the former Psychiatrist in Chief of the hospital system that invented the sex change operation for gender dysphoric individuals and then later abandoned the surgery because it was doing more harm than good has recenty spoken out extensively from a mental health perspective against supporting gender reassignment in gender dysphoric individuals. Not "PC" but an interesting read for sure.

I wonder if that might not count as "evidence based medical practice", as cited in another thread currently running (or at least from a preeminent and vast experience base). The PC Police and their associated thought crime SJW mobs very rarely align on the side of actual fact based science - very few religious thought police (right wing or left wing) ever do, as Galileo might attest.

Beliefs usually outweigh evidence, subjectively, leading to human error... which is why we're trained to fly the objective flight instruments, not our subjective feelings of which way is up and down.

V/R
Spam

Quote from: Flying Pig on June 14, 2016, 12:46:03 AMWhy is this not being addressed as the mental health issue that it is?

It's not that simple. Gender dysphoria is a relatively new subject in the field of mental health, and the jury is still out on the best way to treat it (i.e., whether it's better to physically transition the body to match the mind, or whether to provide therapy to the mind to cope with the physical body - or somewhere in between.)

It doesn't help that there's a very vocal faction which insists that people need to just "get over it" and refuses to admit that it's a real and complicated condition.

Quote from: Pace on June 14, 2016, 01:04:23 AM

Quote from: Flying Pig on June 14, 2016, 12:46:03 AM

Quote from: RNOfficer on June 14, 2016, 12:13:21 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html)


A judge in Oregon has granted a petition allowing a person to legally choose neither sex and be classified as nonbinary: an important development for transgender Americans while civil rights and sexual identity are in the national spotlight, advocates and legal experts said.

Oh good grief.   Are we really at a place in America where people are so out of touch with reality that they can't accept what biological sex they are?   And people think this is ok?    Why is this not being addressed as the mental health issue that it is?

Not one to normally stoke the flames, but the former Psychiatrist in Chief of the hospital system that invented the sex change operation for gender dysphoric individuals and then later abandoned the surgery because it was doing more harm than good has recenty spoken out extensively from a mental health perspective against supporting gender reassignment in gender dysphoric individuals. Not "PC" but an interesting read for sure.

Here's the article if anyone is interested:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120)

Quote from: raivo on June 21, 2016, 05:11:09 AM

Quote from: Flying Pig on June 14, 2016, 12:46:03 AMWhy is this not being addressed as the mental health issue that it is?

It's not that simple. Gender dysphoria is a relatively new subject in the field of mental health, and the jury is still out on the best way to treat it (i.e., whether it's better to physically transition the body to match the mind, or whether to provide therapy to the mind to cope with the physical body - or somewhere in between.)

It doesn't help that there's a very vocal faction which insists that people need to just "get over it" and refuses to admit that it's a real and complicated condition.

For the record...Ive never said "just get over it".  It is a very complicated condition.  What I am opposed to is tripping over ourselves to accommodate and normalize  a complicated mental health condition on the backs over everyone else.  No different than if I decided today that Im no longer 41... Im now 23 and I want to go to Army flight school.  How is that any different?  Where do we draw the line on feelings?  I can easily prove your sex.  You would have a hard time proving my exact age.  Id also guarantee Im in far better shape than most people in their mid 20s.   Do people need to be harmed, made fun of, etc?  Absolutely not.  Do we cater to the needs of their condition like its a disability?  No.  Telling a 15 year old biological male that he can act like a female if he wants to and nobody will harm or make fun of him is far different than forcing everyone else to accommodate it like its real.  But hes not going to be accommodated as a female.   One of the main foundations behind dealing with mental health issues is to not make yourself responsible for their situation.   When I interact with someone who believes invisible people are telling them to do something, you don't play along unless its for tactical or safety reasons.  Yet with Gender identity issues, which is a mental health issue, we are all being forced to play along.  Again, its not my place to convince that male cadet that he has a mental health issue or to even suggest there is anything wrong with him wanting to identify with being female. But we shouldn't be forced to accommodate it beyond decency and respect.  But no son... you don't get to bunk with the female cadets or use their latrine.  If your gender identity is non-negotiable, then maybe we aren't the place for you.  You are welcome, but we cant,  as a group, be responsible for, or made uncomfortable so you can be comfortable. 
Of course none of this matters ,because the decision has been made far above my pay grade.  Just my thoughts.  And no.. I don't hate anyone. 

Quote from: Pace on June 21, 2016, 02:02:57 PM
Here's the article if anyone is interested:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120)

To be fair, here is the counterpoint to the article that you posted:

http://transadvocate.com/clinging-to-a-dangerous-past-dr-paul-mchughs-selective-reading-of-transgender-medical-literature_n_13842.htm (http://transadvocate.com/clinging-to-a-dangerous-past-dr-paul-mchughs-selective-reading-of-transgender-medical-literature_n_13842.htm)

Quote from: LSThiker on June 21, 2016, 04:35:04 PM

Quote from: Pace on June 21, 2016, 02:02:57 PM
Here's the article if anyone is interested:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120)

To be fair, here is the counterpoint to the article that you posted:

http://transadvocate.com/clinging-to-a-dangerous-past-dr-paul-mchughs-selective-reading-of-transgender-medical-literature_n_13842.htm (http://transadvocate.com/clinging-to-a-dangerous-past-dr-paul-mchughs-selective-reading-of-transgender-medical-literature_n_13842.htm)

Thank you. I look forward to reading this.

Its odd that cosmetic surgery is considered an answer.  In the end, the person is no more the opposite gender than they were before. 

Hormones also get adjusted.

Quote from: Flying Pig on June 21, 2016, 04:11:02 PMFor the record...Ive never said "just get over it".

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you, it was more of a comment on the overall state of the discussion in society.

The lack of compassion and understanding, as well as the frankly disgusting level of transphobia being displayed here is shocking. Many of you here should be ashamed of yourself some. "Social Justice Warriors." "If I decide I'm a different age, it must be true according to their logic." "Mental illness." I believe one of you compared yourself to Gallileo? Must be nice to have never been hated for who you are, or have to hide it (for fear of what may happen to you. The barely concealed contempt and weasel words I see here are the exact same thing that must of been said by the KKK in the 1950s.

The world is changing, old guys. Deal with it, or step out of the way. Worry about the real issues, and not the made up ones that Fox News tells you too.

Apparently this is a very touchy subject for some. This is not an issue of "I am deciding to be a girl/boy today". Gender dysphoria is waking up every day knowing you're what you're not. It's not a choice, much as being gay or straight is not a choice. Did you wake up one day and decide "I'm straight"? No. This was something you knew from the very beginning, at least since puberty. There was no school, no class, that made you straight. So why do people assume that being gay is a choice? Some people don't discover until a much later age that they are gay, which is why a lot of folks come out at age 30, 40, 50, 70 whatever. And there may be a single isolated incident that makes them realize they are gay, that it was there all along, that they were unhappy and just didn't know it. Why do you think all these "re-education camps" don't work?

If there are male cadets out there who try to game the system by pretending to be a girl so they can get in the showers and bunk with them, trust me....they're going to be noticed. And dealt with appropriately.

My only issue with the entire issue is that teens are choosing to undergo reassignment surgery, and that's just too soon. Hormones, peer pressure, whatever...not many of the decisions we made at age 13-18 really stuck, did they? Maybe you knew your path in life, but having your genitals changed isn't something you decide on overnight.

As far as it affecting CAP, we'll deal with it like we always do. We'll find out what works and what doesn't, make a regulation or directive, and move on. It wasn't but 60 years or so ago that the military integrated blacks and whites into homogenous units. Everyone thought it was a big deal at the time, mixing races. And we're looking back on it now, scratching our heads and wondering what the big deal was. And so shall it be 50 years from now.

/soapbox

Quote from: JayT on June 21, 2016, 11:13:47 PM
The world is changing, old guys. Deal with it, or step out of the way. Worry about the real issues, and not the made up ones that Fox News tells you too.

And you think this isn't a real issue?  Are the only real issues the ones the Corrupt News Network reports?   Who are you to determine what is a real issue to someone? 

Did the world keel over and appoint you emperor and we didn't know about it?

The world is changing yes sir it is, so let's focus on real issues as you say in how we are watching politicians attempt to reduce the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on June 21, 2016, 09:24:45 PM
Hormones also get adjusted.

Yes. Artificially.  When You stop taking the medication, your body returns to what you are.

JayT.   Your post was great.  Any more attempts at insults or is it allowed because I don't agree with you?  Attempting to Insulting people who don't agree with you while trying to show why we should. That's called a hypocrite.   :clap:  you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong, so that makes the other person "phobic"?   Ok. So much for the labels you are concerned with.

.... Double post

Quote from: JayT on June 21, 2016, 11:13:47 PM
The lack of compassion and understanding, as well as the frankly disgusting level of transphobia being displayed here is shocking. Many of you here should be ashamed of yourself some. "Social Justice Warriors." "If I decide I'm a different age, it must be true according to their logic." "Mental illness." I believe one of you compared yourself to Gallileo? Must be nice to have never been hated for who you are, or have to hide it (for fear of what may happen to you. The barely concealed contempt and weasel words I see here are the exact same thing that must of been said by the KKK in the 1950s.

The world is changing, old guys. Deal with it, or step out of the way. Worry about the real issues, and not the made up ones that Fox News tells you too.

Why, I'm feelin' your labeling and hatred right now, actually. Keeps me warm, as an "old guy" (love THAT respect on display, there, hypocrite).


Also, for the record, no, I didn't even remotely compare myself to Galileo... you either need to improve your reading comprehension, and/or don't post while high.


Spam

I get this is a polarizing issue, and there is definitely a break between and an absolute lack of consensus among medicine and society.

That being said, this is going down the drain quickly. Refocus before this gets locked please.

Quote from: Garibaldi on June 21, 2016, 11:27:52 PMApparently this is a very touchy subject for some. This is not an issue of "I am deciding to be a girl/boy today". Gender dysphoria is waking up every day knowing you're what you're not. It's not a choice, much as being gay or straight is not a choice. Did you wake up one day and decide "I'm straight"? No. This was something you knew from the very beginning, at least since puberty. There was no school, no class, that made you straight. So why do people assume that being gay is a choice? Some people don't discover until a much later age that they are gay, which is why a lot of folks come out at age 30, 40, 50, 70 whatever. And there may be a single isolated incident that makes them realize they are gay, that it was there all along, that they were unhappy and just didn't know it. Why do you think all these "re-education camps" don't work?

Nailed it. I probably could have told you I was different from other teens back then, but it took me a good few years of repressing feelings and wrestling with thoughts until I finally figured things out and came out as gay when I was 21. Whether it relates to orientation or gender identity, the mind is insanely (heh) complicated and I think it takes many people some time and some trials (or a lot of both) to figure out "who" they really are. But then we start delving into philosophy, and that's not one of my strengths.

There's a scene from a Law and Order: SVU (yeah, I know) episode about transgender issues, which I found to be a really good description to me, as a cis guy: "What if you woke up tomorrow morning in a body of the opposite sex, but nothing else about you had changed? Can you imagine how trapped you'd feel? Can you imagine how desperate you'd be to get back into the right body?"

Quote from: Garibaldi on June 21, 2016, 11:27:52 PMMy only issue with the entire issue is that teens are choosing to undergo reassignment surgery, and that's just too soon. Hormones, peer pressure, whatever...not many of the decisions we made at age 13-18 really stuck, did they? Maybe you knew your path in life, but having your genitals changed isn't something you decide on overnight.

Also agreed.

With regard to CAP, I think the best policy that can be adopted - at least, for now - is the one that's been referenced here (or in the other thread? I can't remember): treat people according to their legal gender, however their state chooses to define that.

There may come a day when medicine advances and the law catches up, and the issue is settled for us, but until then I don't think CAP would do well to try and break new ground on the issue.

Hi Lt my name is Yadira Espinoza, and i am currently a CAP cadet. I am transgender, and I identify as a male, and i wanted to know what the policy is about clothing. I am against wearing female clothing, but I wanted to know if I am forced to by CAP regulations.


Thank you

Cadet Espinoza,

First, I do not have the information you are looking for. But I will look.

Second, allow me to praise your courage and my best wishes. I hope that your career in the CAP will be long and successful.

Good Luck Cadet. :clap:

The current NHQ policy is that you wear the uniform which corresponds to your legal gender.

I believe this also extends to PT and billeting, etc., for overnight activities.

Your best course of action is to address this directly with your commander who should then consult higher
HQ if he has any questions or concerns.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2016, 09:20:24 PM
The current NHQ policy is that you wear the uniform which corresponds to your legal gender.

I believe this also extends to PT and billeting, etc., for overnight activities.

Your best course of action is to address this directly with your commander who should then consult higher
HQ if he has any questions or concerns.

CAP respects your legal gender in your state or local municipality as identified on the information provided for membership (ID, birth certificate, social security card, etc). Uniform wear, PT, and billeting standards conform to legal gender through the rest of the regulations/pamphlets.

In regard to billeting, it is not a requirement that cadets be housed together; single rooms are authorized. Organizers/chaperons can arrange that a cadet be housed separate to accommodate special needs. Males and females must be housed separate, and this is based on legal gender.

Quote from: ryann6244 on November 08, 2016, 08:47:05 PM
Hi Lt my name is Yadira Espinoza, and i am currently a CAP cadet. I am transgender, and I identify as a male, and i wanted to know what the policy is about clothing. I am against wearing female clothing, but I wanted to know if I am forced to by CAP regulations.


Thank you

Again, like what was said earlier, it all depends on what your legal gender is, which the standard is varied from state to state.  In the event that you are required to wear female uniforms- which I understand that you do not want- you have more options than a male identifying as a female (with male legal gender)  the BDU's are gender neutral, ABU's are cut for Male/Female (females may wear male cut ABU's), and females can wear slacks with Shirts tucked in.

I also understand that this may not be the ideal situation in your case, but I hope it helps to start thinking about what options are available to you, in the event that you are required to wear female uniforms.

Lastly, best of luck to you in a rewarding CAP Career.  It's a great program.

Quote from: ryann6244 on November 08, 2016, 08:47:05 PM
Hi Lt my name is Yadira Espinoza, and i am currently a CAP cadet. I am transgender, and I identify as a male, and i wanted to know what the policy is about clothing. I am against wearing female clothing, but I wanted to know if I am forced to by CAP regulations.


Thank you

Cadet,

You should run these questions by your chain of command for proper answers. I know that your Commander has engaged Wing and Region, he is well versed on this issue.

Even if you have to wear female uniforms, most people outside of CAP won't be able to tell the difference if you don't wear the skirt. I know this, because I'm a cisgender female and when I'm walking around in uniform people always call me "sir" or "dude" or "bro" or something similar.