I'm not going into specifics, but if a cadet was talking about sex acts, (perverse ones, I might add) telling people they want to have sex with the cadet, (Even though the person's sexual perference doesn't "roll" that way) and saying stuff like "Rape ya later."
Is there anything that specifically forbids this? Specifically, not "conduct unbecoming" or some such fascimile
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 12, 2012, 01:55:46 AM
I'm not going into specifics, but if a cadet was talking about sex acts, (perverse ones, I might add) telling people they want to have sex with the cadet, (Even though the person's sexual perference doesn't "roll" that way) and saying stuff like "Rape ya later."
Lolwut? I do not get what you are trying to say in this situation. Was another cadet meaningfully hitting on another? Or were they just being kids? Call 'em out on it, it sounds like stupidity.
I think 123-2 covers the issue partially.
This is sexual harassment and has the potential for serious problems. You should report it to the CC and get away pronto.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 12, 2012, 02:13:12 AM
This is sexual harassment and has the potential for serious problems. You should report it to the CC and get away pronto.
It sounds more like stupidity with cadets making sexual jokes at eachother to get a cheap laugh. If it is seriously meant, I will be surprised and I am sure the cadet needs help because "I'll rape you later" is a very weird and twisted thing to say to someone seriously.
Quote from: AngelWings on June 12, 2012, 02:18:34 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 12, 2012, 02:13:12 AM
This is sexual harassment and has the potential for serious problems. You should report it to the CC and get away pronto.
It sounds more like stupidity with cadets making sexual jokes at eachother to get a cheap laugh. If it is seriously meant, I will be surprised and I am sure the cadet needs help because "I'll rape you later" is a very weird and twisted thing to say to someone seriously.
Whether it's serious or joking, it is still harassment. This should be reported to the CC immediately.
Inform the cadet what they're doing - it is harassment - and make sure they know they must stop. Also inform the squadron commander.
This is not just a CAP thing. It is a everywhere thing.
Quote from: bflynn on June 12, 2012, 02:25:11 AM
Inform the cadet what they're doing - it is harassment - and make sure they know they must stop. Also inform the squadron commander.
This is not just a CAP thing. It is a everywhere thing.
+1
I am not one to over react to stupid things that Cadets ( and Seniors) may occasionally say, but what you have described, at minimum, describes a person who has sexually violent thoughts about another member of your Squadron. It could be innocent teenage teasing, but it could also be one one of the most dangerous types of individuals around, with a personality disorder that may allow them to do things that no normal person should ever have to think about. If this is more than just a hypothetical, and assuming you have not "juiced up" the story or withheld important context, I think you are obligated to take it up the chain of command. People end up dead in situations like these all the time, while
other people stand around and worry about political correctness, office politics, potential loss of friendships, or just plain embarrassment. You need to kick this to the next level. " Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid".
Major Lord
The squadron commander knows.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 12, 2012, 02:47:15 AM
The squadron commander knows.
And isn't doing anything? Time to take it to the Group CC.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 12, 2012, 02:47:46 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 12, 2012, 02:47:15 AM
The squadron commander knows.
And isn't doing anything? Time to take it to the Group CC.
If the unit CC is aware and doing nothing, then call the wing CC immediately.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 12, 2012, 02:57:57 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 12, 2012, 02:47:46 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 12, 2012, 02:47:15 AM
The squadron commander knows.
And isn't doing anything? Time to take it to the Group CC.
If the unit CC is aware and doing nothing, then call the wing CC immediately.
Isn't that jumping the CoC?
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 12, 2012, 03:45:03 AM
Isn't that jumping the CoC?
Yes and no.
You've already indicated that the Unit CC is aware and not taking action, and in most cases of hazing and abuse reporting, the
person to whom it is reported is supposed to go VFR-Direct to the Wing CC anyway, so there you go.
With that said, has it struck you at all that your unit has a higher-than-average "Drama Quotient"?
It might not be the sqdn that has the drama problem. Just saying.....
And it is only Mon. http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15535.msg280510#new (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15535.msg280510#new)
Where to start....
First of all, is what the cadet saying considered offensive to those who are receiving it?
Is it offensive to those who hear this?
Has the individual been told to cut it out because it is offensive to someone?
If you cannot answer "yes" to any of these questions, in all "legal" means, it isn't considered harassment.
It may be more taboo than wrong if it is acceptable by all parties involved. IMO
Without knowing the dynamic and all the details and this seems to be just touching the surface REPORT IT. Unit drama, teens being teens whatever you want to label it, bottom line these sort of comments and sort of behavior is unacceptable. This is the sort of thing that leads to school violence and in the adult realm workplace violence. Left unchecked this is bad news for anyone and everyone involved if the Sq CC is not doing anything then it's time to hit the Wing and Group CC depending on your breakdown at the same time. And there is always the IG office as well if there is no luck through the other channels. This behavior should be sending up major red flags and should dealt with swiftly. There is no place in our organization for this behavior period...
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 12, 2012, 03:45:03 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 12, 2012, 02:57:57 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 12, 2012, 02:47:46 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 12, 2012, 02:47:15 AM
The squadron commander knows.
And isn't doing anything? Time to take it to the Group CC.
If the unit CC is aware and doing nothing, then call the wing CC immediately.
Isn't that jumping the CoC?
Only if there is a group commander.
And in keeping with my beleif that we keep things in house......report it....follow up as necessary....no more posting on CT is requried.
There is, (a group commander) but IGs are outside of the CoC..... And isn't this an IG thing?
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 12, 2012, 05:51:22 AM
There is, but IGs are outside of the CoC..... Soo, isn't this an IG thing?
Only if the chain of command has failed.
Slow down everyone! You're jumping faster than someone can actually do anything.... :)
The commander now knows, give him a few days to do something about it. It isn't an group/wing/region/IG thing until the squadron commander has had reasonable time to correct the situation.
Kids say stupid stuff all the time.
It's distasteful, crass and crosses some boundaries, but at this point it's JUST words.
When did the CC find out? Yesterday? Give him time.
Is this an ongoing thing? A few weeks? Months? Why haven't you posted about it before then?
Has the cadet been told to stop, but he continues?
Lots of questions, better addressed to yourself, and then proceed with the advice given by others to follow through with the CoC to the required level.
Quote from: bflynn on June 12, 2012, 12:58:14 PM
Slow down everyone! You're jumping faster than someone can actually do anything.... :)
The commander now knows, give him a few days to do something about it. It isn't an group/wing/region/IG thing until the squadron commander has had reasonable time to correct the situation.
Have you not read everything on this? It has been stated to use the CoC and keep going up. Either way this behavior has greater potential for far more serious things and needs to be dealt with now. When is reasonable in your mind? When cadet's parents have filed a suit, when cadet x has had enough of cadet y's bs and takes matters into his own hands? I am willing to bet if it was your kid or your workplace you would be singing a different tune.
By notifying your commander, you have completed your duty according to regulation. Your Commander is not going to be in a position to discuss with you specifically how he will deal with the allegations. My guess is that you suspect that he (?) will take no action. Give him a reasonable time to act- the black hole of command can lose almost anything for days, months or years, so strive for patience. You would not be completely off base to suspect this as a possibility, but its far more likely that your Commander will kick it upstairs.
My suggestion to you is that you carefully draft a written report of what actually transpired, omitting your opinions insofar as this is possible, and providing a COPY to your CC, listing the CC as the sole recipient of the draft in the circulation portion of your memo, and marked as a draft, allowing you to revise and extend the report if required at a later date. ( If you have a family attorney, you can also add a cc marked Dewey, Cheatum, Esq, at the bottom of the page, you don't actually have to send the copy to your attorney until or if, it becomes necessary) The implication of this should be immediately clear to any CC with half a brain ( And I apologize in advance to any CC's who may have less than half a brain) , that is to say, you expect the CC to take reasonable and prudent actions regarding your complaint, especially since they directly go to the issue of the safety of one of your cadets. Your CC has a duty to act, but on the off chance you have a CC more interested in CYA ( new term: CCCYA)you have gone on record ( as well as doing so here, publicly)
Is it likely that your self described homosexual would-be, rapist might actually cause any harm to your unknowing victim? Are they neighbors? Schoolmates? If safety and honor dictate that you must act to defend the potential victim, I suggest you ask your commander his intentions, and if he tells you that he believes your complaint to be meritless, you would be within your rights to contact the I.G. or a Chaplain ( Both of whom also have a legal duty to act in regards to the safety of a child)
Remember that we are a civilian corporation, not a military organization, and our regulations have the same power as the J.C. Penny's employee handbook; They are not binding on you in law, but can severely effect your relationship with the Corporation if you bend or break them, so whenever possible, act within the guidelines. On the other hand, if exigent circumstances require you to step outside the chain of command in defense of life, no CAP member of conscience ( there are at least 11 of these at last count) would condemn you for taking action. As a last resort, you could contact the parents of the "victim" cadet to give them a warning, but this is a hazardous approach from a variety of angles of attack.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on June 12, 2012, 02:54:20 PM...CAP member of conscience ( there are at least 11 of these at last count)
Cite please...
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 12, 2012, 02:04:51 PM
Have you not read everything on this? It has been stated to use the CoC and keep going up. Either way this behavior has greater potential for far more serious things and needs to be dealt with now. When is reasonable in your mind? When cadet's parents have filed a suit, when cadet x has had enough of cadet y's bs and takes matters into his own hands? I am willing to bet if it was your kid or your workplace you would be singing a different tune.
Yes, I have read it all.
The original post was at about 10pm. By 2am, it had had been suggested to escalate through group and wing and become an IG issue.
Relax a little. This should be addressed at the next available opportunity and I'm sure it will be.
QuoteThe original post was at about 10pm. By 2am, it had had been suggested to escalate through group and wing and become an IG issue.
Sir, this is something that has been going on for a while. Not just for one meeting.
To clarify: This is more than one cadet doing this. The "would-be" rapist, IMHO, meant it as a joke.
Quote from: bflynn on June 12, 2012, 03:43:02 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 12, 2012, 02:04:51 PM
Have you not read everything on this? It has been stated to use the CoC and keep going up. Either way this behavior has greater potential for far more serious things and needs to be dealt with now. When is reasonable in your mind? When cadet's parents have filed a suit, when cadet x has had enough of cadet y's bs and takes matters into his own hands? I am willing to bet if it was your kid or your workplace you would be singing a different tune.
Yes, I have read it all.
The original post was at about 10pm. By 2am, it had had been suggested to escalate through group and wing and become an IG issue.
Relax a little. This should be addressed at the next available opportunity and I'm sure it will be.
Go back and look it said go there if nothing has been done.
Also suggest that everyone just take a few deep breaths here and relax. You may or may not ever find out what the squadron commander did about it. You made your report, and I would drop it at that point unless it continues to happen or happens again. This might have simply been dealt with the first time by a private talk behind closed doors.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on June 12, 2012, 03:44:18 PM
QuoteThe original post was at about 10pm. By 2am, it had had been suggested to escalate through group and wing and become an IG issue.
Sir, this is something that has been going on for a while. Not just for one meeting.
To clarify: This is more than one cadet doing this. The "would-be" rapist, IMHO, meant it as a joke.
Ok, and how long has the squadron commander known? When did you tell him and is he aware that it hasn't stopped?
I would have to agree with Maj. Lord.
The proper steps is to draft a formal report and turn it into the CC. You actually can cc: the IG, as this is considered "Sexual Harassment of a Minor" and could very well be a very large issue.
The CC or IG would than, by law, have to involved the parents of the cadets in question. Being cadets, they are minors - all the regulation in the world could go on, and the end result is "parent's ruling". Now the CC or IG would contact the victim cadet's parents, explain the situation and it is up the them to press charges or handle internally. What ever they choose is how it will play out.
If the case was with senior members, that would be an entirely different story, and the CC or IG would have a lot more room to act. The key issue here is that we are talking about minors.
I hate seeing anything like this.. on the good side, two cadets are getting an early and I am sure memorable lesson in Sexual Harassment, bad side - this happened. There is a zero tolerance to this kind of behavior, and fact is - even the cadet who reported it could press charges saying that he/she was uncomfortable with the situation. That is also a form of sexual harassment. Even if it was all joking around - the law doesn't care - its a very tricky situation. Lets hope that the kids are just being kids and that the cadet who is issuing the advancements isn't in fact one very sick individual.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 12, 2012, 03:04:03 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on June 12, 2012, 02:54:20 PM...CAP member of conscience ( there are at least 11 of these at last count)
Cite please...
Are you questioning whether there are at least 11? ( Or just wondering whether you made the list?) >:D
Major Lord
Eleven may have been revealed, but we all know that it's the twelfth member that is the MOST important!
The search goes on.
Quote from: BrannG on June 12, 2012, 04:30:18 PM
the cadet who reported it could press charges saying that he/she was uncomfortable with the situation. That is also a form of sexual harassment.
Press charges with who?
My take is that this probably isn't what it's made out to be. There needs to be a correction, but to have it rise to the level of a legal entanglement is over the top.
Then again, I don't know...and neither do the people that keep escalating it...
Quote from: usafaux2004 on June 12, 2012, 07:06:58 PM
Eleven may have been revealed, but we all know that it's the twelfth member that is the MOST important!
The search goes on.
Note I said that there are
At least 11. Eclipse must be so cynical he does not think that there are even that many! If you have a suggestion for a certified member of good conscience, you may nominate them for addition to the list ( currently maintained on a 3 X 5 card written in crayon) Naturally, government employees except members of the military, Amway sales people, lawyers, anyone from Chicago, Washington D.C., and New Orleans are automatically disqualified due to the distributive property of evil.
Major Lord
Quote from: bflynn on June 12, 2012, 08:03:54 PM
Quote from: BrannG on June 12, 2012, 04:30:18 PM
the cadet who reported it could press charges saying that he/she was uncomfortable with the situation. That is also a form of sexual harassment.
Press charges with who?
My take is that this probably isn't what it's made out to be. There needs to be a correction, but to have it rise to the level of a legal entanglement is over the top.
Then again, I don't know...and neither do the people that keep escalating it...
No one is escalating it and it is upto the victim and cc to decide if legal action is warranted. And for charges well one can go with assault easily and there is always civil litigation as well. People have only advised the cadet on what to do and given the nature regardless of the location or organization it needs to be addressed immediately. But since it's a volunteer organization it's not that important. I'd hate to see how you'd react if it happened in your office.
11, maybe. I'd say any more than 15 would be a stretch.
I dunno, I'm starting to think 11 is a stretch...
Quote from: bflynn on June 12, 2012, 08:41:44 PM
I dunno, I'm starting to think 11 is a stretch...
I didn't know you thought
any of us are potentially decent people...
I'm confused.... ::)
I thought there was a specific chain of events which MUST take place when a commander gets a complaint of cadet abuse; sexual or otherwise. Have things changed in the last year or so?
BTW; it's usual policy to report such complaints "immediately" (there is a 24 hr hotline for this).
Yep, but there's a few people with no experience in these matters providing advice.
Quote from: FW on June 12, 2012, 08:54:45 PM
I'm confused.... ::)
I thought there was a specific chain of events which MUST take place when a commander gets a complaint of cadet abuse; sexual or otherwise. Have things changed in the last year or so?
BTW; it's usual policy to report such complaints "immediately" (there is a 24 hr hotline for this).
No, nothing has changed. The CC must immediately suspend all seniors involved and start the reporting process, even for an obviously frivilous complaint. There is very little room for any discretion, but then there wouldn't be as much drama here on CT.
Well, that's all well and good, but why should the opinions of members with no experience, no direct regulatory knowledge, and no common sense, be excluded from consideration too? Oh.....never mind.......
Major Lord