I have been told that in ES and SAR training and missions you are able to wear a boonie cover(hat) does any one know for sure and have the reg on this subject?
NEC approved it three yearas ago. AF shot it down. Boonies are not authorized. Reference CAPM 39-1 for uniform headgear. CAPM 39-1 also states that it (CAPM 39-1) is sole source for uniform wear.
^ That's right... yet Wg CCs put out supplements that allow/require dif headgear. Cali for instance w/ the Sq numbered ball caps. I wonder if a Wg CC could issue boonies as authorized optional safety gear for GTs in sunny conditions at IC discression? It'd have to be approved by NHQ, not AF, and I find it hard to believe they could shoot that down, or that AF could object under the circumstances it's written.
I will venture to ask why we need boonies. I have heard alot of people say because of sunburn or to keep the sun out of your eyes. My ansewer........wear a ball cap and put sunscreen on. Thats how simple it is!
The standard cover & sunscreen has always been fine for me. Others make a point about it, and frankly there are heat/sun conditions down south here where the reg may not provide for adequate protection & optimal performance. There's no problem with guard troops wearing one on the same mission with us, so it shouldn't be an issue for CAP. The AF is just concerned with it being abused.
Quote from: DNall on December 26, 2006, 02:53:38 AM
The standard cover & sunscreen has always been fine for me. Others make a point about it, and frankly there are heat/sun conditions down south here where the reg may not provide for adequate protection & optimal performance. There's no problem with guard troops wearing one on the same mission with us, so it shouldn't be an issue for CAP. The AF is just concerned with it being abused.
The NEC approved it as a safety issue. The AF didn't agree and said so. Wing commanders are authorized in CAPM 39-1 to authorize unit base ball caps.
You can only authorize what you are authorized to authorize.
I keep one in my survival gear. Call me a rebel.
here in oregon they keep the rain from running down your neck.
Just as a general comment, I like the looks of the desert style HAT, SUN, HOT WEATHER better than the woodland one I've got... The desert pattern ones have a somewhat shorter brim and don't have the camoing tape on 'em.
This:
(http://www.uscav.com/prodinfo/thumbnails/25543t.jpg)
As opposed to this:
(http://www.uscav.com/prodinfo/thumbnails/9519t.jpg)
Quote from: arajca on December 26, 2006, 03:07:58 AM
The NEC approved it as a safety issue. The AF didn't agree and said so. Wing commanders are authorized in CAPM 39-1 to authorize unit base ball caps.
Okay, I wasn't aware of that. I was under the impression it was requested as an optional uniform item, not safety gear like a protective helmet. My now auth goretex keeps the rain from running down my neck.
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on December 26, 2006, 04:19:34 AM
here in oregon they keep the rain from running down your neck.
So does a poncho. Your reasoning fails. Next!
Mine is my old jungle hat from when I was in Honduras with the Army. It isn't camo., it's solid OD green. I also have my subdued oak leaf on it. If you're gonna violate a regulation, be proud of it!
Chicks dig guys who break the rules.
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 26, 2006, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on December 26, 2006, 04:19:34 AM
here in oregon they keep the rain from running down your neck.
So does a poncho. Your reasoning fails. Next!
Well seeing how 39-1 does not mention poncho's either...I guess we can't wear them either! ;D
Quote from: lordmonar on December 26, 2006, 06:03:16 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 26, 2006, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on December 26, 2006, 04:19:34 AM
here in oregon they keep the rain from running down your neck.
So does a poncho. Your reasoning fails. Next!
Well seeing how 39-1 does not mention poncho's either...I guess we can't wear them either! ;D
Just wait...they'll both be authorized before too long...in CAP Blue, just because the AF said "no".
Ooooh... Feel the burn. :o
I always love these arguments. "I wear [insert bling of the moment here] because it's a safety issue and so I can parade around wearing whatever uniform I want in the name of safety." (as if the rest of CAP was running around completely unsafe for years without whatever unauthorized uniform accessory you've got)
Sure. ;D Yeah I really don't care about this item. Some people feel strongly about it & make a decent safety case for it. I symapthize. I live in a place where heat/sun safety is always on your mind & bigger threat than the spinny thing on the front of the plane. We had four athletes between 14 & 18 die in 6wks earlier this fall, all heat related in some form or other. It's hard for me to look at their argument & say there's no merit there, not when the I've seen guard commanders mandate the same item in the same conditions for that purpose. I don't want the thing authorized for regular wear (abused) & I don't want to go the underhanded route to get it cleared for the right conditions. I just think it's alegit case to make to AF w/a good ORM behind it & if they say it's not worth the percieved down side, then ask them why not & try to mitigate, then if they say no then it's no.
I know I've probably come across as a proper $@@ in another thread but I have to ask, whats wrong with solid orange (the non mesh) baseball hats? Personally I'm not a fan of hats to begin with and when I get a hat I don't mind wearing I hate changing it.
Quote from: MattPHS2002 on December 26, 2006, 11:02:04 PM
I know I've probably come across as a proper $@@ in another thread but I have to ask, whats wrong with solid orange (the non mesh) baseball hats? Personally I'm not a fan of hats to begin with and when I get a hat I don't mind wearing I hate changing it.
That orange crap is a crazy Pennsylvania Hawk Mountain throwback. For years PA has tried to say they will only wear orange hats because of safety. I have only heard the military laugh at members as they parade around in thier orange hats. Not to mention that hat is more expensive than the patrol cover.
I had heard that Mikey and we did wear BDU covers for a while (maybe a year or so) if I have to wear a hat I prefer the baseball hats although orange and woodland camo... it just doesn't look right. However that being said I know for a fact that I would never wear a boonie hat just because I don't care for them.
Here's my pfenning's worth, In the Middle East in some undisclosed location, sunscreen was still important to use even with the boonie hat. What is needed is a wider brimmed hat similar to current MARPAT uniform. Do you think we could wear that one? It does contrast well with BDU ::)
WIWAC, before I knew any better, a bunch of us got hold of Aussie "Digger" hats (the things that look like a Stetson but snap up on the sides). They work great for sun protection when the brim is down, much wider than the boonie hat and (IMHO) look pretty decent with a uniform, at least better than the floppy boonie. IIRC the Air Commandos used to wear them also, and that may be where we got the idea from, I just don't remember.
You are right. The Air Commandos in Vietnam sported them back in the early 1960's. They were as unauthorized then as they are now, but the Air Force uniform nazis were afraid to confront the Psychotic Killers of the Mekong about their hats.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 27, 2006, 10:09:41 PM
You are right. The Air Commandos in Vietnam sported them back in the early 1960's. They were as unauthorized then as they are now, but the Air Force uniform nazis were afraid to confront the Psychotic Killers of the Mekong about their hats.
The funny thing is....there are not uniform nazis in the USAF. Different units get away with different things and the chain of command polices itself.
Those units that push the envolope usually know how far they can go and no one really cares.
I have been in two units whose "offical" t-shirt was not within AFI directives. No one cares. There are also lots of different units that wear special insignia or hats with out authorisation....again no one cares.
Hence...I don't get twisted up about boonie hats. My feeling is uniformity. If you go to the field with boonie hats...you had better brought one for everyone on your team you don't get to wear one on my team.
Pat:
You're right about knowing how far to go.
In the Army, we have Cavalry units. They don't have horses anymore, but the drive tracked vehicles or helicopters. They are supposed to wear Armor, Infantry, or Aviation branch devices, accordingly. The Army no longer has a "Cavalry" branch, but...
All of the officers will wear crossed sabres, and Stetson hats. You could go report them to the colonel in command of the regiment, but he's wearing them, too.
When I was with the First Combat Communications Squadron...the instant we hit the field out came the "morale" uniforms. I got a BDU cap with cat eyes and a combat comm tab on it. We had these little Harley "1"'s made up and sewed them to our uniforms. We wore boonie caps (I would always go to supply and grad 6-7 for the guys who forgot or did not have any.
We wore our "rock and roll" t-shirts with lots of lettering on the back!
And like you said...if anyone complained...I just sent them to the chief who was the guy handing them out!
Again that is why if you see some cadet tootling down the road with an orange beret on his head....don't yell at him unless he is in your chain of command. You got to go find the cadet's boss yell at him and then take it up the chain of command until you can find some one who cares.....and guess what.....no one does or PAWG and CAWG would have been reigned in years ago!
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 28, 2006, 01:02:51 AM
The Army no longer has a "Cavalry" branch, but...
There's no Cavalry branch? What does the "1st Cav" do now? ???
At one time Cavalry was a separate branch in the Army. It was absorbed into the Armor branch in 1951 according to Wikipedia. There still is a Cavalry Scout MOS.
And there are still cavalry units, but there is not supposed to be anybody wearing cavalry brass anymore. The armor brass is similar, crossed sabres, but with a tank superimposed on the front. Armor also inherited the branch color of the cavalry, buff yellow.
But cav troopers are die-hards and won't give up their cav brass without a fight.
Garry Owen!
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 28, 2006, 04:22:24 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 28, 2006, 01:02:51 AM
The Army no longer has a "Cavalry" branch, but...
There's no Cavalry branch? What does the "1st Cav" do now? ???
They are Armor...they just don't want to admit it!
We have some armor units here in Oregon that still where their cowboy hats. My uncle is actually a CAV Scout, but he isn't in one of the units that wears the cowboy hats. I have heard tankers refer to themselves as armored CAV before too.
There are such things as armored cavalry units. The Armored Cavalry Regiment serves as the point for the division in the advance, and provides recon.-in-force for the division in defense. These are different from armor units and mech infantry units, in function if not in equipment.
There are also air cavalry units, whose mission is envelopment in support of the attack, as also recon-in-force for the defense. Air Cav units are normally a Corps asset, and are kept under the control of the Corps commander, unless detailed forward to division for a specific operation.
There is one cavalry division, the 1st Cavalry, which is an air cav division.
How's THAT for remembering the stuff from Officer Advanced School?!
The armored cav differs from traditional armor units by the mix of forces, as well as the mission. About 1/3 of the regiment's combat power is in tanks, about 1/3 mounted infantry, and another third made up of 4.2" mortar crews to provide indirect fire support as far forward as platoon.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 28, 2006, 01:02:51 AM
All of the officers will wear crossed sabres, and Stetson hats.
Hello All,
I was at Maxwell a couple of months ago....the Stetson Hats with US Air Force on the front were prominantly displayed in the uniform store....started to get me one, but with the beard and long hair it just didn't look right.
Semper vi,
Quote from: Hotel 179 on December 28, 2006, 05:09:46 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 28, 2006, 01:02:51 AM
All of the officers will wear crossed sabres, and Stetson hats.
Hello All,
I was at Maxwell a couple of months ago....the Stetson Hats with US Air Force on the front were prominantly displayed in the uniform store....started to get me one, but with the beard and long hair it just didn't look right.
Semper vi,
Uh... Steve...
You weren't gonna wear that with the CAP uniform, were you?
Why not, Kach? Would fit right in with the boonie covers, the orange ball caps and the berets.
Quote from: bosshawk on December 28, 2006, 07:38:38 PM
Why not, Kach? Would fit right in with the boonie covers, the orange ball caps and the berets.
Not to mention those old pilots that wear cowboy boots.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2006, 04:13:37 AM
Again that is why if you see some cadet tootling down the road with an orange beret on his head....don't yell at him unless he is in your chain of command. You got to go find the cadet's boss yell at him and then take it up the chain of command until you can find some one who cares.....and guess what.....no one does or PAWG and CAWG would have been reigned in years ago!
And that's why making fun of them is a better option. Simply pointing and laughing at them can be effective. >:D :)
(Note/Disclaimer: While it's true that I don't care for the silly blaze orange trucker hats at all, this post was made in jest...don't get too worked up over it.)
Quote from: A.Member on December 28, 2006, 08:21:59 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2006, 04:13:37 AM
Again that is why if you see some cadet tootling down the road with an orange beret on his head....don't yell at him unless he is in your chain of command. You got to go find the cadet's boss yell at him and then take it up the chain of command until you can find some one who cares.....and guess what.....no one does or PAWG and CAWG would have been reigned in years ago!
And that's why making fun of them is a better option. Simply pointing and laughing at them can be effective. >:D :)
Ya know there are safety supply companies who make hard hats shaped like stetsons...I'm sure we could get some of those in orange. :D
Quote from: Psicorp on December 28, 2006, 08:33:01 PM
Ya know there are safety supply companies who make hard hats shaped like stetsons...I'm sure we could get some of those in orange. :D
Ewwww.....
I'm going to play Devils Advocate here...why not wear distinctive uniform items that increase morale and allow the member to be proud of an accomplishment? I feel it is counter productive to deny someone in an auxiliarist status or active/reserve duty status to wear something that they earned and want to exclaim to the the world that they accomplished.
There are times when we need to adhere to CAPM 39-1 and then there are times we need to recognize the achievements, accomplishments, and pride that a member may have by accomplishing a hard earned feat.
Quote from: CAP Safety Dude on December 29, 2006, 03:17:33 AM
I'm going to play Devils Advocate here...why not wear distinctive uniform items that increase morale and allow the member to be proud of an accomplishment? I feel it is counter productive to deny someone in an auxiliarist status or active/reserve duty status to wear something that they earned and want to exclaim to the the world that they accomplished.
There are times when we need to adhere to CAPM 39-1 and then there are times we need to recognize the achievements, accomplishments, and pride that a member may have by accomplishing a hard earned feat.
Agreed. However, the use of a boonie hat by Civil Air Patrol has been denied by the Air Force. Their reasoning is that the boonie hat is a "combat" related piece of headgear (at least that's what I've been told) and there is no need for it in a non-combatant organization.
Whether or not you buy that, is up to you.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 29, 2006, 03:50:07 AM
Their reasoning is that the boonie hat is a "combat" related piece of headgear (at least that's what I've been told) and there is no need for it in a non-combatant organization.
And BATTLE dress uniforms in CAMMO.....who ya hidin' from? ME up in the plane, that's who!
Not to worry...When I flip on my foward-looking bi-scopic tri-focals I'll see you.
>:D
Semper vi,
Quote tags - MIKE
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 29, 2006, 03:50:07 AM
Agreed. However, the use of a boonie hat by Civil Air Patrol has been denied by the Air Force. Their reasoning is that the boonie hat is a "combat" related piece of headgear (at least that's what I've been told) and there is no need for it in a non-combatant organization.
Whether or not you buy that, is up to you.
The funny thing is...even though the boonie hat is authorized for wear by the USAF....you hardly ever find anyone who is willing to do so! Only with the 1st Combat Comm Squadron has there ever been a totally unauthorized, unofficial policy of wearing them. Even then...we were careful where and when we wore them. The few places where they make sense to wear them...they either were in civilian cloths or they were specifically forbidden.
So go figure.....why would the USAF say no to CAP about a piece of uniform they don't even wear?
Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2006, 06:01:21 AM
Only with the 1st Combat Comm Squadron has there ever been a totally unauthorized, unofficial policy of wearing them.
I Googled the history of the military cap. Since the very earliest days of this country there have been soldiers who have worn equipment that was "unauthorized" and some of these variations have eventually made their way into the "official" wear.
One of the variations of the boonie was reversable with ORANGE on the inside..... ;)
Semper vi,
Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2006, 06:01:21 AM
So go figure.....why would the USAF say no to CAP about a piece of uniform they don't even wear?
An interesting point. When I was Army Guard, I was issued a boonie hat. I asked my fellow platoon members when these would actually be worn...
The response: "Well, um, sometimes when you're in the field....and, uhh, maybe some other times."
Every place we ever went for AT, we were told not to wear boonies. The Army doesn't even wear it that much.
Now I have to ask this question here, what makes the boonie hat so special? To me its just another type of hat.
Quote from: MattPHS2002 on December 29, 2006, 08:23:12 PM
Now I have to ask this question here, what makes the boonie hat so special? To me its just another type of hat.
Depends on what context you're asking
1. Will keep sun and rain of your face, and most of your neck. Tends to be a little looser fit, and more comfortable.
2. The military considers it a "combat" related piece of headgear. Which makes our lowly auxiliary unworthy of it's wear.
Hope that helps.
I guess what I'm trying to ask is "why is it considered a combat item?" its a hat:)
Quote from: MattPHS2002 on December 29, 2006, 08:40:58 PM
I guess what I'm trying to ask is "why is it considered a combat item?" its a hat:)
That's the same question everybody is asking. The military does have a tendency to take ownership of certain things, and has issues with other people using them. Kind of "This is
my sandbox! I don't want you playing here!"
The Air Force has the same issue with the A2 Leather Jacket. They give it to their aircrew, and don't want anyone else wearing it as a uniform item.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 29, 2006, 09:27:39 PM
Quote from: MattPHS2002 on December 29, 2006, 08:40:58 PM
I guess what I'm trying to ask is "why is it considered a combat item?" its a hat:)
That's the same question everybody is asking. The military does have a tendency to take ownership of certain things, and has issues with other people using them. Kind of "This is my sandbox! I don't want you playing here!"
The Air Force has the same issue with the A2 Leather Jacket. They give it to their aircrew, and don't want anyone else wearing it as a uniform item.
They are even stingy with giving it to all the aircrew....if the PTB (Powers That Be) had their way, only Pilots (and fighter pilots at that) could wear the flight jacket.
The Boonie hat is viewed as an affectation, like you think of yourself to be some kind of Ranger-Danger/LRRP/Sapper/Recon/SEAL dude. The fact that it actually has some utility is obscured by the fact that folks who have (usually) never been on the far side of the ocean think that you are trying to be some kind of "Playa" by wearing a bush hat.
We wore them in Honduras, until some stateside general got his panties in a bunch about it. Then we had to ditch them. When he left and a new general came in, we put them back on, and nothing was said.
Observations: The Boonie Cover has been, in my experience, easier to find and for equal or less money than a BDU cover.
Observations: I don't really see a need for anyone outside of the South or South West to wear one. It has utility in the deserts of New Mexico or Nevada (where the sun might actually cause sun stroke, skin cancers and the like). In that case, a pith helmet or campaign hat might serve the same purpose.
Conclusion: As for looking cool...I don't think we need a Boonie Cover. Looking cool is not part of the CAP mission. It feeds the arguements that see CAP as a group of posers and pretenders.
However, if they are introduced for their utility...I think they do have a purpose in certain environments.
(here comes that sinking feeling) :-\
Just to throw some fuel on the fire, a blue boonie hat can be worn by CG Aux boatcrews in some circumstances....
Quote from: RiverAux on December 30, 2006, 01:32:03 AM
Just to throw some fuel on the fire, a blue boonie hat can be worn by CG Aux boatcrews in some circumstances....
You mean the Tilley? That's not exactly a boonie and it's freak'n 'spensive.
(http://cgaux7.org/d7store/prodspics/60491Dthm.jpg)
Still looking for a nice low profile ball cap with the embroidery.
Picky, picky....Its pretty much a boonie hat.
No, it ain't. Its even uglier than a boonie hat, if that's possible.
yeah, that thing is uber-ugly. what is that. I usually don't really care much about what I wear, it's usually t-shirt and jeans unless I'm in CAP uniform or I have to dress up for something, but I wouldn't be caught DEAD in that thing.
It looks like some sort of modified Amish gear.
Quote from: CAP428 on December 30, 2006, 05:09:30 AM
It looks like some sort of modified Amish gear.
I was about to post that. It has a 19th century "parson" sort of look.
Or, if you're Roman Catholic, a Galero...
(http://cathedralofmary.org/history/cardinals-hat.jpg)
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 30, 2006, 05:06:59 AM
No, it ain't. Its even uglier than a boonie hat, if that's possible.
I've got the Tilley. Yep, expensive. Yep, a bit ugly.
Keeps the sun off okay when riding slow on my PWC operational facility. I probably wouldn't wear it with any other CG uniform though.
(http://www.penroseoutdoors.co.uk/acatalog/Anatomy.jpg)
Tilley hats are great for sailing IMHO, but as a uniform item? Perhaps it's just me, but I'm not keen on a navy-blue Tilley for any purpose.
Tilleys are at their best when they're broken in, IMHO.
I've worn my wife's navy blue sailing hat (I don't know the brand, but looking at the drawing above, it was either a Tilley or one like it) with my BBDUs when I was so far out in the Everglades that I didn't care what anyone thought it looked like....good hat for the purpose, but it definitely has that "not quite right" look to it.
I got lucky and picked it up at a hurricane-damaged West marine for $5.00.
Hey Gene, hadn't crossed thread with ya in a while, how you doin out that way?
Simply awesome :) I took my time finding my way over from Civilairportal...it just didn't seem the same here.
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 29, 2006, 10:59:28 PM
Observations: I don't really see a need for anyone outside of the South or South West to wear one. It has utility in the deserts of New Mexico or Nevada (where the sun might actually cause sun stroke, skin cancers and the like). In that case, a pith helmet or campaign hat might serve the same purpose.
Sun stroke and such can happen anywhere in the US. If the purpose of the boonie is the shade from the wide brim, it's useful anywhere.
Now, other types of wide brimmed hat could serve the same function.
On the subject of "Boonie Hats are a safety item"
Do we have any real data, from any source, that folks in normal BDU caps (with sunscreen) are at a significantly higher risk for heat related injuries than folks in boonie caps?
For example, how many heat related injuries were reported to NHQ that could be attributed to the lack of boonie-shade?
Barring any kind of support like that, it's really not about safety - it's about comfort. Not as compelling an argument.
It's not about the heat, it's about the sun. The consequences of not shading oneself properly from the sun do not show up until years later, so any kind of data will be almost impossible to directly correlate to whatever type of hat was worn in younger years. We do know that skin cancer is a major health risk and one of the most common types of cancer found. We also know that the vast majority of damage is caused at an early age and the damage isn't apparent until the later years.
As for facts etc, do a search for sun skin safety on google or the like...you'll find plenty of information as well as various ways to protect oneself including wide-brimmed hats. Sunblock is only part of the solution and not always practical in the field as it blocks your pores and is sweated off almost as fast as you can put it on.
People from up North wonder why us Floridians find snow so amazing that we come up on vacation hoping to see it...down here, we wonder at the touron (tourist/moron) fools lying out bathing in the very same sun that we're trying to avoid too much of.
Note: You seldom see a native cracker lying out....most of the bronzed beachbum residents you meet are from somewhere else as is most of the rest of the state.
Okay, so the "safety" factor we're talking about is skin cancer, not heatstroke?
If so, shouldn't we authorize the boonie for all cadets to wear with service dress during formations outdoors?
Does USAF mandate boonies for wear on the flightlines worldwide? I don't know any place sunnier than the flightline. And if they don't...
And truthfully (while I'm being kind of smarmy) - don't our GTs focus on searching areas plane's can't, meaning those with overhead cover (i.e. shade?). After all, it doesn't take long to search an open field....
Methinks the whole thing is a tempest in a teapot.
What can I say? Folks learn over time...it wasn't too many years ago that kids rode around without seatbelts or on the rear package shelf of their dad's Oldsmobile on roadtrips. Are you saying we should ignore new knowledge about safety just because we've always done things differently?
Maybe we just think about this more in the Southern part of the hemisphere since we have more direct exposure to the sun's rays being at a more Southerly latititude....I know that our Medical/Safety Officer (a Pediatrician) is up in arms over it.
Most dress formations don't last as long as a GT or flightline mission; personally I wouldn't have any problem with them wearing more sun protection either, but nobody has asked me.
We don't need GTs so much for search as for rescue/recovery in which case there may or may not be a lot of tree cover, plus there is no telling what they might have to go through on the way to the scene. If we allow wide-brimmed hats for the times when there isn't shade, do we word the reg so as to only allow it when there is XX% of the natural sunlight reaching the ground? Do GT members carry two hats, one ofr shade and one for sun?
What do you use for protection when working FLM? BDU caps don't come with tiedowns for flightline use like a boonie cap does.
Rolled-down sleeves help some too, but you do have to balance that protection against the more immediate risk of heat injury. Incidentally, the military operates almost full-time with covered arms, primarily for other reasons such as camouflage and I would think some protection from scrapes and cuts.
Some quotes to think about:
"Children are most at risk for overexposure to UV radiation. With one in five Americans developing skin cancer, childhood education about sun protection is a vital step toward reducing risk and improving public health. Many studies have concluded that sun exposure, especially sunburn, during childhood appears to increase the risk of melanoma, the most serious form of skin cancer. Just one or two blistering sunburns in childhood can double a person's risk of developing melanoma later in life.
Children are of particular concern because they spend a lot of time outdoors. Perhaps most importantly, skin cancer and other UV-related adverse health effects are largely preventable if sun protection practices are followed early and consistently. Educating school staff and students about sun safety can prevent many health problems related to overexposure to the sun. "
"According to the American Cancer Society (1999), skin cancer is the most common of all cancers. The incidence of skin cancer is greater than the incidence of breast, lung, prostate, colorectal, and kidney cancers combined. In the United States, about 1.3 million new cases of skin cancer are diagnosed each year. "
"Melanoma cases in the United States have almost doubled in the past two decades. Receiving one or two blistering sunburns before the age of 18 at least doubles an individual's risk for developing melanoma."
"Melanoma is the most aggressive of the skin cancers. If not caught early, melanoma can spread to other parts of the body and can be fatal. "
(American Safety Council)
Exposure to UV radiation appears to be the most important environmental factor in the development of skin cancer. Scientists believe that the increase in skin cancer has resulted from:
- Increased outdoor leisure time
- Decrease in the amount of clothing worn outdoors
- Decrease in atmospheric ozone levels
Skin cancer is a largely preventable disease. Exposure to UV radiation may be the most important preventable factor in determining a person's risk for skin cancer (American Academy of Dermatology, 1998).
But still, does USAF (with their hundreds of doctors and millions in research) mandate its wear?
If not, why do we think we know better?
Bottom line - there are a MILLION things we could do that might have some small effect, no doubt. But without evidence that the risk is significantly less with a rather ugly, non-uniform item than with a regular cap and sunscreen, its an overreaction. (Kind of like high-fiber diets or vitamin C pills. Sure it helps, but how much? And is it worth the hassle? Should we demand these foods at our encampments?)
The most amazing part of this is while we could mandate the kiddies wear a big floppy hat during their CAP time, I got 20 bucks that says when they're on their own time away from CAP they won't be wearing boonies outside. And that's a much greater percentage of their total exposure than a couple of SARs a year, protected by a BDU cap and sunscreen.
If, however, we did decide to go with it, it should be mandatory with all utility uniforms, including the golf shirt. Safety items should not be optional.
In the meantime, I'm waiting for the first lawsuit against CAP by a 40 year old ex cadet who wants to blame his skin cancer on being forced to wear a ball cap.
Quote from: Dragoon on January 05, 2007, 07:41:22 PM
But still, does USAF (with their hundreds of doctors and millions in research) mandate its wear?
They allow it, usually by supplement. I wonder why?
QuoteAirmen may wear the 8-point desert camouflage or floppy hat to provide protection from the sun's ultraviolet rays, according to the 332nd Air Expeditionary Wing supplement to Air Force Instruction 36-2903, Dress and Personal Appearance of Air Force Personnel.
QuoteIn the meantime, I'm waiting for the first lawsuit against CAP by a 40 year old ex cadet who wants to blame his skin cancer on being forced to wear a ball cap.
Don't hold your breath. Like I pointed out earlier, it's pretty close to impossible to prove a direct link due to the timeframe involved.
Even so, you don't see most of us going around snorting asbestos either.
"Safety?" Wrong!
"Image" Yes.
I keep mine in my flight bag with my survival gear because it can fold up so small that it takes up very little room. I don't wear it with my CAP uniform. I would under the right circumstances, like if I needed the rest of the stuff in my survival gear.
They look silly. Sure, they keep the sun off your head, but to wear one with a uniform makes you look like you're trying to be some kind of Ranger-Danger Dude that you're not.
This is especially true if you are 12 years old, or look like you are 12, because you don't shave yet.
Quote from: floridacyclist on January 05, 2007, 09:11:17 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on January 05, 2007, 07:41:22 PM
But still, does USAF (with their hundreds of doctors and millions in research) mandate its wear?
They allow it, usually by supplement. I wonder why?
I don't believe that's a true statement.
Also, safety items should not be "allowed," they should be mandated. You don't give people options whether or not to be safe.
On other hand, comfort or style items are often "allowed."
Quote from: Dragoon on January 05, 2007, 07:41:22 PM
But still, does USAF (with their hundreds of doctors and millions in research) mandate its wear?
If not, why do we think we know better?
What I want to know is...since the USAF does not even let USAF member's where it...why do they even carry it in their inventory?!
Bottom line is that it is NOT authorised so lets drop it. If we do push USAF to let us where it....then we should MANDATE it's where for all GT teams and Mission Base personnel.
My current push is that we should become more uniform in our appearance at least at the mission bases. Think of what some non CAP person sees when he wanders into the mission base.
No less than eight different combinations authorise for wear....green flight suits, blue flight suits, USAF blues, Whit and Gray corporates, White and Blue corporates, Polo shirt, BDU's and Blue Bdus!
The we add all the different combinations there off and we don't look like a single organisation.
Boonie covers are good and they look cool (let's not fool anyone). But unless everyone has one on...no one should.
Why would you make someone in North Dakota wear one in December or when it's cloudy? It sounds like you're setting up an impossible task (requiring it's use full-time for everyone) rather than allowing it to be used when appropriate to do so.
Not sure where you're saying that USAF is not allowed to wear it when the uniform reg mentions it as a possible hat to be worn with certain uniforms, plus various supplements cover it as well.
Quote from: floridacyclist on January 05, 2007, 10:00:36 PM
Why would you make someone in North Dakota wear one in December or when it's cloudy? It sounds like you're setting up an impossible task (requiring it's use full-time for everyone) rather than allowing it to be used when appropriate to do so.
Not sure where you're saying that USAF is not allowed to wear it when the uniform reg mentions it as a possible hat to be worn with certain uniforms, plus various supplements cover it as well.
As I stated in my rant...I don't think I would go to that lenght...but I would go to the lenght that it everyone should be the same.....
My comment about the USAF (I am active duty) is that in my 20+ years of service...the number of times the boodie hat has been authorised for wear is very very small. The rules allow for it to be authorise but somewhere between the squadron and the MAJCO levels it never gets authorised or specificly forbidden.
The few times I was allowed to wear it...it was understood that it was probably not authorised...but the deployed commander felt it was better to ask forgiveness than permission.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 05, 2007, 10:22:51 PM
The few times I was allowed to wear it...it was understood that it was probably not authorised...but the deployed commander felt it was better to ask forgiveness than permission.
Which is the standard employed by a lot of GTLs in the appropriate climates. If you do like John said & pack it w/ your survival gear, always refer to it in that way, and then it gets whipped out so far back in the glades that people hadn't been there in a few years... well I can look the other way for a legit safety case. I don't like that, and I don't personally do it, but I've seen it done, & it's hard to argue against. I'd prefer that AF take the right steps to ensure it's ONLY worn under the strictest conditions, and I probably still won't wear it if that happens, but I have a degree of reasonable tolerance is what I'm saying.
Oh I am with you 100% on that.
But the reg hounds would go nuts over it the first time a PAO picture or a new paper artical showed your GT dismounting from the van to go stomping in the back brush.
I like the idea of actually codifing it...i.e. making it a manditory item of the GT gear along with the bdu patrol cap, and then giving the Ground Branch Director with concurance with safety and the IC the authority to dictate if the mission is boonie or patrol cap.
AS I said...one of my peeves is that we are so variform instead of uniform at the mission base (even if everyone is in 100% correct uniform) that it makes us look unproffessional. Hence my personal desire (until USAF backs off weight and gooming standars) to make the BBDU's and Blue flight suit the only uniform that can be worn by mission base personnel. (except cadets). I perfer the USAF uniform (I don't own any corporates) but I would gladly give up my USAF unifrom to increase the professional image of CAP.
To everyone who is blaming CAP for not allowing wear of the boonie cap - YOU'RE WRONG.
In May of 2004, the NEC authorized its wear as a SAFETY issue, supported by the CAP/HSO. The AF took exception to it and BANNED CAP from wearing the boonie hat.
So, CAP understands the benefits of wearing the boonie cap, but the AF prohibits CAP from wearing it.
CAP could approve a boonie hat matching the blue BDUs if they wanted to.
I tend to agree that if there were significant safety benefits to wearing a boonie then the AF would authorize those guys on the ramp every day to wear them.
No, we all get what happened w/ AF... I have to ask if some of that was timing with other issues in teh relationship alongside NEC just went & auth it under a safety flag & didn't follow the right proceedures. Makes it seem like they were trying to sidestep the AF uniform board to do what they want & that's a no-no.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 06, 2007, 12:24:10 AM
CAP could approve a boonie hat matching the blue BDUs if they wanted to.
I tend to agree that if there were significant safety benefits to wearing a boonie then the AF would authorize those guys on the ramp every day to wear them.
Blows off into Engine, or takes off down the tarmac w/ airman running in tow right into spinny thing on front of plane... FOD! :'(
Rotate your people early & often, keep hydrated... you know the drill.
On a related but off topic subject.....when you compare the CGAUX with CAP...the CG does not have a major problem with weight and groom standards, while the AF seems to have this major fear that CAP will make them look badly.
Now part of this I know is our own fault....but really? Why are they taking this to such levels?
By forcing us into corporates....they are driving the first wedge between USAF and CAP. Hence one of the reasons why I like the new blue corporates. It looks more USAF. At least when we all wear blues (both usaf and CAP) an out sider can see that we are part of the same organization. (That is why I wish they would wear the gray epaulets on the blue corporates).
Quote from: lordmonar on January 05, 2007, 09:42:32 PM
Boonie covers are good and they look cool (let's not fool anyone).
I think that's a matter of opinion. To me, they make everyone look like Gilligan. Unless of course you roll the hat Aussie Style, in which case you lose the shade.
CAP's been around for over 60 years. I wonder if old CAPers have a higher incidence of skin cancer than the general public, since we were denied boonies.
I'm thinking not. ;)
Quote from: RiverAux on January 06, 2007, 12:24:10 AM
CAP could approve a boonie hat matching the blue BDUs if they wanted to.
No need to approve it. You can wear any civilian headgear you want with corporate uniforms (except the TPU).
Me, I'm going for a big 'ol sombrero. In day glo orange.
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 26, 2006, 11:18:38 PM
That orange crap is a crazy Pennsylvania Hawk Mountain throwback. For years PA has tried to say they will only wear orange hats because of safety. I have only heard the military laugh at members as they parade around in thier orange hats. Not to mention that hat is more expensive than the patrol cover.
Just an FYI, the MI Wing "Group III Ranger" program (developed in the late 1970s, early 1980s by some non-Hawk Mountain folks) mandated the wear of the so-called "carrot top" hats in the field by students during the school. I don't remember the specifics of the markings, but I seem to recall that it was the last three of your unit's charter number (ie. 117) in big black bold numerals.
Of course, then these hats start showing up at SAREXs, encampments, etc. Grrrrr.
So its not specifically a Hawk Mountain thing.
EDIT: Maybe they were just plain...
(http://www.ninness.org/CAPphotos/albums/userpics/10003/FTX%20SAR%20School/SAR%20School%201.jpg)
(http://www.ninness.org/CAPphotos/albums/userpics/10003/FTX%20SAR%20School/SAR%20School%203.jpg)
Orange Hats started in PAWG back in the late 50's. They were the only "authorized" orange hat in the country. Those sutdents that came to Hawk in the later 50's and 60's took the hat back with them. So in fact, the orange hat was a hawk thing. We still can't get rid of that awful orange cover.
Next weekend, the only way I was able to get a permit to use the National Forest for our exercise was to promise to stay within 500 yards of houses (no legal gun discharge area) and wear orange hats and vests; the place will be loaded with hunters.
Thats odd. Most modern rifle seasons are over by now. Depending on where you are there could be muzzleloader or bowhunting going on, but there is some sort of hunting season open just about any time of the year in most places.
Quote from: floridacyclist on January 07, 2007, 01:01:50 AM
Next weekend, the only way I was able to get a permit to use the National Forest for our exercise was to promise to stay within 500 yards of houses (no legal gun discharge area) and wear orange hats and vests; the place will be loaded with hunters.
What kind of permit did you need? I didn't realize that you needed a permit to do training in the national forest. Obviously you want to work with the local ranger to coordinate, but i didn't know you needed a permit. Or was it on the CAP side.
National Forests sometimes vary widely on when a special permit will be necessary to conduct various activities.
General gun season runs until Jan 21 and this will be a long weekend, so I have no doubt the bubbas will be out in force.
They actually finally decided that we didn't need a permit since we had fewer than 75 people, and weren't camping or doing anything other than hiking. They still had me wondering if we'd even be allowed to take a simple walk in the woods and it took 3 weeks to get a final answer.
Lake Talquin State Forest on the opposite side of the highway would have been a natural choice as they don't allow hunting, but they expect a large number of horses out that day; we were lucky to be allowed in at all. I had to promise to try to keep everyone away from the horse trails.
Hard to believe I had this much trouble finding enough room for a proper exercise with a 500,000 acre national forest in my backyard; next time it won't be hunting season, so thing will be a little easier. We're looking at the Bradwell Bay area, so that should be fun.
I don't know about "safety" but we ran some experiments in our Wing a bunch of years back, and colored hats really help air ground coordination. Even more than vests, as the vest get covered up with green LBEs and the like.
They also helped manage search lines. Since your head is the highest point on your body, it's the point most likely to be higher than the surrounding brush and in view of your team leader. Making it a bright color helps.
Yup, they look a bit dorky, but they can serve a purpose.
When I was a cadet, we wore yellow construction helmets in the woods. Served a multitude of purposes including visibility and keeping branches from whacking you in the head.
A few months ago we attended an exercise in Lake City and were all issued orange hats that we were told were mandatory to wear. I asked if they were trying to imitate Hawk Mountain and found out they had no idea what I was talking about. Once I saw the orienteering course, it all made sense as the whole field was grass a little over head-high. While you couldn't see ten feet in front of you from the ground, you could easily see all the teams from the observation platform in the middle of the field as they looked like little groups of orange domes weaving through the grass.
Yup, I hate the funny colored hats, but they do seem to serve a purpose.
I find myself more and more in support of allowing a flourescent (they'll probably mandate orange) boonie hat for field ops. It would be very functional as far as UV safety and would be especially for air-ground coordination with that big ol' brim making it look like a big orange spot from the air.
As for public apearance, remember the professional pararescue guys from the Kim search? They wore what worked, not what looked the most military.
Besides, with something as ridiculous-looking as a big floppy orange hat, anyone with half an ounce of self-repect would shove it in a pocket if there was the least chance of being seen by the public LOL
Gene:
How about one with a propeller on top?
If the prop is powered electrically (solar cells?) and blows cool air on my boiling skull, I'm in.
I love the idea, the only problem I see (I know, I have to be a party-pooper) is that the goals of absorbing sunlight to create electricity and reflecting sunlight in order to be highly visible are both mutually incompatible goals :)
I think we've beat this one to death. Let's find another thread where we can whine about the TPU some more! ;)
Quote from: floridacyclist on January 08, 2007, 06:06:57 PM
I love the idea, the only problem I see (I know, I have to be a party-pooper) is that the goals of absorbing sunlight to create electricity and reflecting sunlight in order to be highly visible are both mutually incompatible goals :)
Not a problem at all. Different wavelengths involved. The orange light gets reflected; whatever's left makes electricity.
Given that orange is 1/7 of the traditional ROYGBIV spectrum, 6/7 is left for generation, in addition to all the ultraviolet and infrared that the solar cells might be sensitive to. Win - win.
However if you consider the coefficent of ultraviolet light following solar winds of ions, the negative percentage of infrared multiplys the effective value of ohms law. This effect would provide a less than optium amperage or voltage. What does all this mean? Darned if I know, I just thought I'd add to bovine waste material.
So....
That's why the WORLD CHAMPION FLORIDA GATOR FOOTBALL TEAM wears orange helmets!!!
CHOMP, CHOMP!
Florida Gators: 41
Ohio State Buckeyes: 14
It must work! Theory validated in practice! Ain't science wonderful?
What in the heck is a buckeye anyway? Some kind of a hairless nut?
Quote from: BillB on January 09, 2007, 01:03:17 AM
However if you consider the coefficent of ultraviolet light following solar winds of ions, the negative percentage of infrared multiplys the effective value of ohms law. This effect would provide a less than optium amperage or voltage. What does all this mean? Darned if I know, I just thought I'd add to bovine waste material.
OOOOHHH you said coefficent! ;D
type on coefficient maybe I should have said coed
Quote from: BillB on January 09, 2007, 07:02:07 AM
type on coefficient maybe I should have said coed
I like those too!
"What in the heck is a buckeye anyway? Some kind of a hairless nut?"
A chestnut. Often roasted over an open fire at the holidays.
Not that I'd have any experience like this as a child but supposedly they fly really good from a wrist rocket >:D
The buckeyes I was talking about got "Roasted" last night in Arizona.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 26, 2006, 03:40:12 PM
Mine is my old jungle hat from when I was in Honduras with the Army. It isn't camo., it's solid OD green. I also have my subdued oak leaf on it. If you're gonna violate a regulation, be proud of it!
Chicks dig guys who break the rules.
When I spent some time enjoying lovely Honduras ( ever stay at the Maya hotel?) I was [darn] glad to have a boonie hat and duct tape. There are so many things in the jungle there to crawl into your clothes and bite you on the ass ( Oooh -Rainbows!-South Park reference for Cadets only) you are wise to tape your sleeves and pants, as shake the ticks and other critters off your boonie hat before they smell your blood. A boonie hat is safety gear, like a motorcycle helmet. Thats my story and I am sticking to it!
20 years ago the Maya Hotel in Honduras was so G.I-laden, especially Intel and Spec-Ops, they could have just put a PX/BX "Shopette" in their lobby. If you wanted to really be low-key, you stayed at the Alameda a few blocks away. Back then, green boonie-hats and slant-pocket jungle fatigues (by far the best combat uniform ever) were the uniform-of-the-day.
CAP Boonie-Hats? if you and the rest of your team are someplace where you really need to where them, chances are there's nobody around to tell you different.
Quote from: CaptLord on January 21, 2007, 01:28:56 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 26, 2006, 03:40:12 PM
Mine is my old jungle hat from when I was in Honduras with the Army. It isn't camo., it's solid OD green. I also have my subdued oak leaf on it. If you're gonna violate a regulation, be proud of it!
Chicks dig guys who break the rules.
When I spent some time enjoying lovely Honduras ( ever stay at the Maya hotel?) I was [darn] glad to have a boonie hat and duct tape. There are so many things in the jungle there to crawl into your clothes and bite you on the ass ( Oooh -Rainbows!-South Park reference for Cadets only) you are wise to tape your sleeves and pants, as shake the ticks and other critters off your boonie hat before they smell your blood. A boonie hat is safety gear, like a motorcycle helmet. Thats my story and I am sticking to it!
Never made it to the Hotel Maya. I was stuck in the Departmento de Yoro at Camp Oso Grande. My idea of a good time was to set up some kind of meeting down at the airbase at Palmerola (What is now caled Soto Cana). There they had club hooches, 3 hots a day, and FLUSH TOILETS! (At Oso Grande, we used cut-in-half 55-gallon drums, and every day we hired Honduran "S--t-Burners" to put diesel fuel in them and burn the stuff off.)
Half the fun of going to Palmerola was listening to the Air Force weenies complain. We thought Palmerola was "Luxury!"
One of our MP's hired a Honduran woman to wash his uniforms. They used to lay the uniforms out in the sun to dry them. A scorpion made his home inside the MP's pants, and when the pants were folded the scorpion was trapped inside. The MP found it about 0-Dark-30 when he was getting dressed for duty and got stung in a VERY tender part of the male anatomy!
The Maya is still the spec/op/spook center for Latin America. Lots of human type scorpions there. General conditions around Honduras have improved somewhat, but the bugs still own the place.
While working in New Orleans during Katrina op's, I quickly found that a boonie hat was once again the preferred cover of the day. Great for bugs, sun, rain, etc. especially in the barren wilderness around Plauqemins (sp?)Parish. (obviously I was not there with CAP) It is also good cover for wearing a bug net over. Admittedly, you look like a complete geek, but function before form! I keep a woodland boonie cover in my go-bag ( No on to complain about to about 39-1 violations in god-lost-his shoes California.) I have not been running missions for a while, since I picked up a case of east australian wombat death syndrome or some other similar bug in New Orleans. Probably some bad crawfish etouffe' or maybe just the drinking water...
If we want to look cool, we should switch to berets, so we can be an "elite force" just like everyone else... didn't one of the chaplains on this list say we should break the rules to show that we are wild and untamed life-takers and heart-breakers ( or words to that effect)
I didn't use my "regulation" boonie hat in NOLA or MS, but my old floppy hat was still much-appreciated for many of the same reasons.
(http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/PublicServiceStories/large/175.jpg)
I'm the one with the mustache.
Quote from: CaptLord on January 22, 2007, 04:14:50 PM
If we want to look cool, we should switch to berets, so we can be an "elite force" just like everyone else... didn't one of the chaplains on this list say we should break the rules to show that we are wild and untamed life-takers and heart-breakers ( or words to that effect)
Oh, God, no! Please! I hate berets. Used to think they were really cool, until I had to wear one. They may look sharp if worn properly, but it is not a practical piece of head gear for field work.
I still get jumped at drill for wearing my PC instead of my beret. It's just easier, and the bill does block the sun. And I can put it on with one hand, and not have to make adjustments to it.
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 22, 2007, 06:52:21 PM
Quote from: CaptLord on January 22, 2007, 04:14:50 PM
If we want to look cool, we should switch to berets, so we can be an "elite force" just like everyone else... didn't one of the chaplains on this list say we should break the rules to show that we are wild and untamed life-takers and heart-breakers ( or words to that effect)
Oh, God, no! Please! I hate berets. Used to think they were really cool, until I had to wear one. They may look sharp if worn properly, but it is not a practical piece of head gear for field work.
He said cool not practical!
Hey, no argument from me! I don't want a french little girls hat that needs to be shaved more often than Janet Reno's legs and chin!
Quote from: CaptLord on January 22, 2007, 09:02:19 PM
Hey, no argument from me! I don't want a french little girls hat that needs to be shaved more often than Janet Reno's legs and chin!
Hey! I'm eating here! >:(
Quote from: lordmonar on January 22, 2007, 07:36:15 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 22, 2007, 06:52:21 PM
Quote from: CaptLord on January 22, 2007, 04:14:50 PM
If we want to look cool, we should switch to berets, so we can be an "elite force" just like everyone else... didn't one of the chaplains on this list say we should break the rules to show that we are wild and untamed life-takers and heart-breakers ( or words to that effect)
Oh, God, no! Please! I hate berets. Used to think they were really cool, until I had to wear one. They may look sharp if worn properly, but it is not a practical piece of head gear for field work.
He said cool not practical!
Oh, OK. Let's not push the "cool" factor too much though. Some people might get ideas.
When the Army went to the black berets for everybody, the Marines started calling the Army beret the "Monica Lewinsky Hat."
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 23, 2007, 12:04:33 AM
When the Army went to the black berets for everybody, the Marines started calling the Army beret the "Monica Lewinsky Hat."
Great ::). Yet another reason the ditch the thing.
Quote from: MIKE on December 26, 2006, 03:13:54 AM
You can only authorize what you are authorized to authorize.
Per CAPM 39-1 23 March 2005
The wing/region commander has authority to approve the following items for
wear within his/her wing: (a) Shoulder cords. Not more than one shoulder
cord will be worn at one time, and it will be worn on the left shoulder (see
Figure 5-2). Color to be determined by the wing commander, EXCEPT all
primary members of Cadet Advisory Councils will wear gold at the National
level, blue at region level, and red at wing level. (See CAPR 52-16, CAP
Cadet Program Management.) National Cadet Competition teams will wear
white shoulder cords. Honor Guardsmen will wear silver shoulder cords; (b)
scarves; (c) white gloves; (d) white and black belts; (e) helmet liners. Color to
be determined by wing commander except that helmet liners authorized for
wear by members participating in emergency services missions will be white
and will be worn with the decal depicted in Figure 6-20.
and
Wing/region approved items will be worn only within the boundaries of the
authorizing commander.
^ Your point? ???
Quote from: MIKE on February 06, 2007, 06:33:38 PM
^ Your point? ???
No where in 39-1 does it say anything about the Wing CC being authorized to approve Boonies.
I never said they were authorized, and the point of my "You can only authorize what you are authorized to authorize." was directed at those commanders who have authorized uniform items for which they do not have the authority to authorize.
I know all about Table 1-3.
Minne-snow-ta Wing has a uniform suplimental that says the following...
Table 2-3 Line 6, Table 2-4 Line 6, Figure 2-26 Note 5, Figure 2-28 Note 5 Added: Stocking caps and ski masks. Members may wear stocking caps and ski masks at winter activities. Blaze orange will be worn during field emergency services operations.
Makes sense to me... but according to the Boonie discussion here, this is also illegal?
- Ace
Do a search for stocking caps and ski masks in CAPM 39-1.
Quote from: MIKE on February 26, 2007, 10:31:36 PM
Do a search for stocking caps and ski masks in CAPM 39-1.
For a second there, I thought maybe the aged wing supliment had been made obsolete by some newer addition to the 39-1. However, my PDF-reader usage skills (at limited as they are) could not come up with the terms "stocking" or "masks" or similar in the manual.
One of the Ground Team documents aparently talks of a "knit cap" or "hood" - but that is more in terms of an ES tool rather than a uniform item. Are Boonie hats tools or uniform items?
- Ace
Quote from: alamrcn on February 27, 2007, 12:11:58 AM
Quote from: MIKE on February 26, 2007, 10:31:36 PM
Do a search for stocking caps and ski masks in CAPM 39-1.
For a second there, I thought maybe the aged wing supliment had been made obsolete by some newer addition to the 39-1.
That's because there's no ability given to Wing Commanders to authorize such uniform items. What Wing Commanders
can authorize is neatly spelled out in CAPM 39-1. Baseball caps and berets? Yes. Blaze orange stocking caps? No.
Plus, if the supplement was written
before the latest CAPM 39-1, it is automatically null and void regardless of its contents.
Quote from: alamrcn on February 27, 2007, 12:11:58 AM
Are Boonie hats tools or uniform items?
Headgear is a uniform item. A wrench is a tool. :)
Quote from: Pylon on February 27, 2007, 12:15:39 AM
A wrench is a tool. :)
I thought you were going to say something else there for a minute. ;)
Quote from: Pylon on February 27, 2007, 12:15:39 AM
Plus, if the supplement was written before the latest CAPM 39-1, it is automatically null and void regardless of its contents.
I wish more people knew about this. I've seen people try to quote supplements from two or three publication dates ago.
I remember arguing with one member over a National supplement to the 39-1 that was dated to 1987 or so. The current pub (at the time) was 1991. Had something to do with ribbons not being authorized on the blue shirts/blouses. Told him that supplements to older publications weren't valid. He got heated about it, said he was going to talk to wing. Never heard anything about it later, so I guess wing corrected him.
Seems like it was pretty standard to use the old suplement, instead of just rewriting it with current dates, and having the wing CC just sign a new copy. After removing anything that wouldn't be authorized under the current reg, of course. Then again, sometimes the supplement contents being matched up to current chapters too.
Quote from: Pylon on February 27, 2007, 12:15:39 AM
Plus, if the supplement was written before the latest CAPM 39-1, it is automatically null and void regardless of its contents.
Did not know that! I think the actual suppliment document is probably dated as being authored when Steve Horning was still a member here <G!> Hoever, I have seen on this or other docs with repatitious signatures and re-approval dates that might align with national regulations as they come out. Will have to look into it and see for sure!
Am
I a tool or a uniform item? ;D
When an ES manual or taskbook mentions wear of a stocking cap (uniform item) in cold weather, does the 39-1 then trump that because it is not listed there?
I realize this is a rediculous question, because who wouldn't protect themselves in cold weather no matter what 39-1 says? But the answer to the question then leads to the other dirrection about more approriate headgear for extreme heat and sun!
Maj "Ace" Tool
Minne-snow-ta Wing
(http://forums.cadetstuff.org/images/smiles/icon_deadhorse.gif) ?
Quote from: Pylon on February 27, 2007, 12:15:39 AM
Plus, if the supplement was written before the latest CAPM 39-1, it is automatically null and void regardless of its contents.
Well actually by regulation it has to be reissued or resended withing six months of the new basic publication date. So "automatically" is not actually true.
Someone needs to correct the Flightline Reference Text. Under "hats", it says:
Boonie hats offer the most solar protection and have a sewn in retention strap. If boonie hats are
used the strap must be kept tight under the chin to be effective.
Quote from: alamrcn on February 27, 2007, 05:30:59 PM
I realize this is a rediculous question, because who wouldn't protect themselves in cold weather no matter what 39-1 says?
How about finding ways to protect yourself and still comply with 39-1?
It not THAT hard...
Quote from: Pylon on February 28, 2007, 04:04:46 AM
(http://forums.cadetstuff.org/images/smiles/icon_deadhorse.gif) ?
Amen...thought we were done with this debate for a while, guess not.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 28, 2007, 09:36:58 PM
Quote from: alamrcn on February 27, 2007, 05:30:59 PM
I realize this is a rediculous question, because who wouldn't protect themselves in cold weather no matter what 39-1 says?
How about finding ways to protect yourself and still comply with 39-1?
It not THAT hard...
There are things that are not accounted for in 39-1. Like temperatures well below freezing. A patrol cap and a field jacket are not sufficient for that. And many people argue that it doesn't matter if it's that cold, you aren't supposed to wear a parka or a watch cap, because it's not in the manual. (I'm not one of them)
High temperatures and a lot of sunlight aren't dealt with either. Other than a lot sunscreen and plenty of fluids, there isn't much you can do within 39-1.
So what options are there?
Quote from: cnitas on March 01, 2007, 04:23:43 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 28, 2007, 09:45:40 PM
So what options are there?
How about common sense?
No Sir...we don't carry that here.....you got's to go down to the Western Auto Store and have them order you some of that from Philly.
Quote from: cnitas on March 01, 2007, 04:23:43 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 28, 2007, 09:45:40 PM
So what options are there?
How about common sense?
Okay, enlighten me. How will common sense keep me from getting frostbite on my ears at 20 degrees?
When you have the answer to that, tell me how it fits within 39-1.
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 01, 2007, 10:45:53 AM
Quote from: cnitas on March 01, 2007, 04:23:43 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 28, 2007, 09:45:40 PM
So what options are there?
How about common sense?
Okay, enlighten me. How will common sense keep me from getting frostbite on my ears at 20 degrees?
When you have the answer to that, tell me how it fits within 39-1.
You ignore 39-1 and do what you have to do!
I wish I wore a Boonie cover last weekend during our SARX. I am light skinned and burned my face and ears. Sunblock was not put on as liberal and often as it should have.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 01, 2007, 06:09:15 AM
Quote from: cnitas on March 01, 2007, 04:23:43 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 28, 2007, 09:45:40 PM
So what options are there?
How about common sense?
No Sir...we don't carry that here.....you got's to go down to the Western Auto Store and have them order you some of that from Philly.
Nah, Philly quit carrying that a long time ago. Check the Chicago store(s). ;)
Just curious, what exactly is a cover?
Courtesy of dictionary .com.
Quotecov·er /ˈkʌvər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhv-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object) 1. to be or serve as a covering for; extend over; rest on the surface of: Snow covered the fields.
2. to place something over or upon, as for protection, concealment, or warmth.
3. to provide with a covering or top: Cover the pot with a lid.
4. to protect or conceal (the body, head, etc.) with clothes, a hat, etc; wrap.
5. to bring upon (oneself): He covered himself with glory by his exploits.
6. to hide from view; screen.
7. to spread on or over; apply to: to cover bread with honey.
8. to put all over the surface of: to cover a wall with paint.
9. to include, deal with, or provide for; address: The rules cover working conditions.
10. to suffice to defray or meet (a charge, expense, etc.): Ten dollars should cover my expenses.
11. to offset (an outlay, loss, liability, etc.).
12. to achieve in distance traversed; pass or travel over: We covered 600 miles a day on our trip.
13. Journalism. a. to act as a reporter or reviewer of (an event, a field of interest, a performance, etc.); have as an assignment: She covers sports for the paper.
b. to publish or broadcast a report or reports of (a news item, a series of related events, etc.): The press covered the trial in great detail.
14. to pass or rise over and surmount or envelop: The river covered the town during the flood.
15. Insurance. to insure against risk or loss.
16. to shelter; protect; serve as a defense for.
17. Military. a. to be in line with by occupying a position directly before or behind.
b. to protect (a soldier, force, or military position) during an expected period of ground combat by taking a position from which any hostile troops can be fired upon.
18. to take temporary charge of or responsibility for in place of another: Please cover my phone while I'm out to lunch.
19. to extend over; comprise: The book covers 18th-century England.
20. to be assigned to or responsible for, as a territory or field of endeavor: We have two sales representatives covering the Southwest.
21. to aim at, as with a pistol.
22. to have within range, as a fortress does adjacent territory.
23. to play a card higher than (the one led or previously played in the round).
24. to deposit the equivalent of (money deposited), as in wagering.
25. to accept the conditions of (a bet, wager, etc.).
26. (in short selling) to purchase securities or commodities in order to deliver them to the broker from whom they were borrowed.
27. Baseball. to take a position close to or at (a base) so as to catch a ball thrown to the base: The shortstop covered second on the attempted steal.
28. Sports. to guard (an opponent on offense) so as to prevent him or her from scoring or carrying out his or her assignment: to cover a potential pass receiver.
29. (esp. of a male animal) to copulate with.
30. (of a hen) to brood or sit on (eggs or chicks).
–verb (used without object) 31. Informal. to serve as a substitute for someone who is absent: We cover for the receptionist during lunch hour.
32. to hide the wrongful or embarrassing action of another by providing an alibi or acting in the other's place: They covered for him when he missed roll call.
33. to play a card higher than the one led or previously played in the round: She led the eight and I covered with the jack.
34. to spread over an area or surface, esp. for the purpose of obscuring an existing covering or of achieving a desired thickness and evenness: This paint is much too thin to cover.
–noun 35. something that covers, as the lid of a container or the binding of a book.
36. a blanket, quilt, or the like: Put another cover on the bed.
37. protection; shelter; concealment.
38. anything that veils, screens, or shuts from sight: under cover of darkness.
39. woods, underbrush, etc., serving to shelter and conceal wild animals or game; a covert.
40. Ecology. vegetation that serves to protect or conceal animals, such as birds, from excessive sunlight, from drying, or from predators.
41. a set of eating utensils and the like, as plate, knife, fork, and napkin, placed for each person at a table.
42. an assumed identity, occupation, or business that masks the true or real one: His job at the embassy was a cover for his work as a spy.
43. a covering of snow, esp. when suitable for skiing.
44. a pretense; feigning.
45. a person who substitutes for another or stands ready to substitute if needed: She was hired as a cover for six roles at the opera house.
46. cover charge.
47. Philately. a. an envelope or outer wrapping for mail.
b. a letter folded so that the address may be placed on the outside and the missive mailed.
48. Finance. funds to cover liability or secure against risk of loss.
49. Music. cover version.
50. Also called covering. Mathematics. a collection of sets having the property that a given set is contained in the union of the sets in the collection.
—Verb phrase51. cover up, a. to cover completely; enfold.
b. to keep secret; conceal: She tried to cover up her part in the plot.
—Idioms52. blow one's cover, to divulge one's secret identity, esp. inadvertently: The TV news story blew his carefully fabricated cover.
53. break cover, to emerge, esp. suddenly, from a place of concealment: The fox broke cover and the chase was on.
54. cover one's ass, Slang: Vulgar. to take measures that will prevent one from suffering blame, loss, harm, etc.
55. take cover, to seek shelter or safety: The hikers took cover in a deserted cabin to escape the sudden storm.
56. under cover, a. clandestinely; secretly: Arrangements for the escape were made under cover.
b. within an envelope: The report will be mailed to you under separate cover.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1200–50; ME coveren < OF covrir < L cooperīre to cover completely, equiv. to co- co- + operīre to shut, close, cover (op-, appar. for ob- ob- + -erīre; see aperient)]
—Related forms
cov·er·a·ble, adjective
cov·er·er, noun
cov·er·less, adjective
—Synonyms 2. overlay, overspread, envelop, enwrap. 6. cloak, conceal. 11. counterbalance, compensate for. 37, 38. Cover, protection, screen, shelter mean a defense against harm or danger and a provision for safety. The main idea in cover is that of concealment, as in darkness, in a wood, or behind something: The ground troops were left without cover when the air force was withdrawn. Screen refers especially to something behind which one can hide: A heavy fire formed a screen for ground operations. Protection and shelter emphasize the idea of a guard or defense, a shield against injury or death. A protection is any such shield: In World War II, an air cover of airplanes served as a protection for troops. A shelter is something that covers over and acts as a place of refuge: An abandoned monastery acted as a shelter.
;D
Quote from: JThemann on March 19, 2007, 02:21:47 AM
Just curious, what exactly is a cover?
Catch-all word for whatever 'hat'/head-covering is appropriate/authorized for the uniform of the moment.
On another note, I didn't dig through the entire thread to see if it's been cited, so sorry if it's repetition. But, one other use for the boonie hat. The ammo band on the top makes a handy storage spot for all the batteries we have to carry for all the equipment, and the odd screwdriver or two. Packin' light, dontchaknow.. ;D Pulling tongue from cheek and running for cover... no, not that one..
Quote from: desert rat on March 13, 2007, 08:47:37 PM
I wish I wore a Boonie cover last weekend during our SARX. I am light skinned and burned my face and ears. Sunblock was not put on as liberal and often as it should have.
Wait, back up here for a second. You wished you wore a boonie cap (out of regs) because it would have prevented the sun-burn you got as a result of you neglecting to properly apply sunscreen (recommended)? ::)
And what is a SARX? I've been on a SAREx or a SAREX before... but a SARX? (Is that pronounced like larks?)
Quote from: Pylon on March 19, 2007, 03:59:12 AM
Quote from: desert rat on March 13, 2007, 08:47:37 PM
I wish I wore a Boonie cover last weekend during our SARX. I am light skinned and burned my face and ears. Sunblock was not put on as liberal and often as it should have.
Wait, back up here for a second. You wished you wore a boonie cap (out of regs) because it would have prevented the sun-burn you got as a result of you neglecting to properly apply sunscreen (recommended)? ::)
And what is a SARX? I've been on a SAREx or a SAREX before... but a SARX? (Is that pronounced like larks?)
SARX - possible a search for ones ex wife who has your xcar and xboat >:D
Don't know how I managed it but I burnt my scalp Saturday while getting current in a PA-28 Cherokee Cruiser. Nicest Cherokee I've ever flown! Worth every bit of redness.
I believe boonie hats are nice to wear and it would be nice to be aloud to wear.
Quote from: IronRangerMN on March 30, 2007, 11:09:58 PM
Reasons we SHOULD be able to wear boonies as covers.
When you wear a regular mil-issue style cover, that doesn't help your ears or the back of your neck. And you can't always be putting on sunscreen.
When its windy, boonies offer more protection for your ears.
When its hot, the larger air vents and loose fitting keeps you cooler in hot weather.
If theres dust, its much better than a regular cover.
If its raining, your hearing is better and your whole head doesn't get soaked, ear aches, etc. And wouldn't improved hearing while in the field help you find your target?
When im moving through the dense woods hear in Minnesota, there are lots of branches. In the fall and spring they can be invisible because they have no leaves. Especially at night. All I have to do to protect my face, ears , eyes, and neck from a bad scratching is tilt my head downward and keep walking.
I should start wearing mine more often in the field because I am aloud too. Its still cold out. The Minnesota Weatrher Law says you can wear what ever you must to keep warm. Loophole!
Every single one of those reasons is a load of bull.
Quote from: tedda on March 30, 2007, 11:12:31 PM
Quote from: IronRangerMN on March 30, 2007, 11:09:58 PM
Reasons we SHOULD be able to wear boonies as covers.
When you wear a regular mil-issue style cover, that doesn't help your ears or the back of your neck. And you can't always be putting on sunscreen.
When its windy, boonies offer more protection for your ears.
When its hot, the larger air vents and loose fitting keeps you cooler in hot weather.
If theres dust, its much better than a regular cover.
If its raining, your hearing is better and your whole head doesn't get soaked, ear aches, etc. And wouldn't improved hearing while in the field help you find your target?
When im moving through the dense woods hear in Minnesota, there are lots of branches. In the fall and spring they can be invisible because they have no leaves. Especially at night. All I have to do to protect my face, ears , eyes, and neck from a bad scratching is tilt my head downward and keep walking.
I should start wearing mine more often in the field because I am aloud too. Its still cold out. The Minnesota Weatrher Law says you can wear what ever you must to keep warm. Loophole!
Every single one of those reasons is a load of bull.
The real reason boonie hats are banned is that it is reserved for the Sr Member Drill team.
Senior Member Drill Team (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9012376251999458377&q=%22Lawn+chair+drill+team%22&hl=en)
Quote from: IronRangerMN on March 30, 2007, 11:09:58 PM
Reasons we SHOULD be able to wear boonies as covers.
When you wear a regular mil-issue style cover, that doesn't help your ears or the back of your neck. And you can't always be putting on sunscreen.
When its windy, boonies offer more protection for your ears.
When its hot, the larger air vents and loose fitting keeps you cooler in hot weather.
If theres dust, its much better than a regular cover.
If its raining, your hearing is better and your whole head doesn't get soaked, ear aches, etc. And wouldn't improved hearing while in the field help you find your target?
When im moving through the dense woods hear in Minnesota, there are lots of branches. In the fall and spring they can be invisible because they have no leaves. Especially at night. All I have to do to protect my face, ears , eyes, and neck from a bad scratching is tilt my head downward and keep walking.
I should start wearing mine more often in the field because I am aloud too. Its still cold out. The Minnesota Weatrher Law says you can wear what ever you must to keep warm. Loophole!
Reason not to wear the boonie cap - the USAF has said CAP cannot wear it. Period. USAF decision trumps all the reasons listed above.
Oh, and about your "loophole". Please explain how a light weight summer cap can keep you warmer than a properly fitting winter cap. And no, your not "aloud" to wear it.
Of course I follow the rules. And of course I know the AF rules are way high than my reasons I would like to wear them. Rules are rules.
Quote from: tedda on March 30, 2007, 11:12:31 PM
Quote from: IronRangerMN on March 30, 2007, 11:09:58 PM
Reasons we SHOULD be able to wear boonies as covers.
When you wear a regular mil-issue style cover, that doesn't help your ears or the back of your neck. And you can't always be putting on sunscreen.
When its windy, boonies offer more protection for your ears.
When its hot, the larger air vents and loose fitting keeps you cooler in hot weather.
If theres dust, its much better than a regular cover.
If its raining, your hearing is better and your whole head doesn't get soaked, ear aches, etc. And wouldn't improved hearing while in the field help you find your target?
When im moving through the dense woods hear in Minnesota, there are lots of branches. In the fall and spring they can be invisible because they have no leaves. Especially at night. All I have to do to protect my face, ears , eyes, and neck from a bad scratching is tilt my head downward and keep walking.
I should start wearing mine more often in the field because I am aloud too. Its still cold out. The Minnesota Weatrher Law says you can wear what ever you must to keep warm. Loophole!
Every single one of those reasons is a load of bull.
x2! And I grew up in Minnesota...
Quote from: arajca on March 31, 2007, 12:40:35 AM
Reason not to wear the boonie cap - the USAF has said CAP cannot wear it. Period. USAF decision trumps all the reasons listed above.
Oh, and about your "loophole". Please explain how a light weight summer cap can keep you warmer than a properly fitting winter cap. And no, your not "aloud" to wear it.
He said those were reasons we should be allowed to wear it, not reasons we should wear it...he's stating his opinion that the rules should be changed, not advocating to break them.
A proper reply to him would be to state that "In my opinion, the reasons the rules should not be changed are....." not to state that they don't allow it...we know that already or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Since you hinted at suggesting it, what winter hats are we allowed to wear?
DIE, TOPIC, DIE!! >:D
Quote from: JC004 on April 02, 2007, 06:15:20 PM
DIE, TOPIC, DIE!! >:D
Does the "Nazi Rule" apply? I'll gladly call Nin a Nazi if it will kill threads like these...
Quote from: shorning on April 02, 2007, 06:48:34 PM
Quote from: JC004 on April 02, 2007, 06:15:20 PM
DIE, TOPIC, DIE!! >:D
Does the "Nazi Rule" apply? I'll gladly call Nin a Nazi if it will kill threads like these...
We can pull the poltics and religion rules too.
Because George Bush wears boonie hats we should all be allowed except the liberal left would not like it....plus boonie hats prove that evolution is a lie and we all need to be taught bible creationism in school!
;D
There! Let it die! There are lots of good resons to wear the stupid hat, lots of reasons why we should not. We have asked the USAF several times and they keep saying no. Send a request up your chain of command to NHQ to get it added to the NB agenda.
But why let it die?
We are having so much fun with it. . . . . . . . .
Quote from: Pylon on March 19, 2007, 03:59:12 AM
And what is a SARX? I've been on a SAREx or a SAREX before... but a SARX? (Is that pronounced like larks?)
"Like a lark in the park making his mark serenading the dark...with a Chorus of SAM's SONG"
Sorry, it just seems to fit.
Regards to Bing and Gary Crosby ;)
Here, this will kill the thread...
"Star Trek is better than Star Wars"
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 02, 2007, 07:23:03 PM
Here, this will kill the thread...
"Star Trek is better than Star Wars"
NEVER, EVER, EVER, NOT IN A INFINATE AMOUNT OF TIME WILL STAR TREK EVER BE BETTER THAN STAR WARS, ok, rant over. . . . . . . down boy, down.
Quote from: RogueLeader on April 02, 2007, 07:28:47 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 02, 2007, 07:23:03 PM
Here, this will kill the thread...
"Star Trek is better than Star Wars"
NEVER, EVER, EVER, NOT IN A INFINATE AMOUNT OF TIME WILL STAR TREK EVER BE BETTER THAN STAR WARS, ok, rant over. . . . . . . down boy, down.
At least in Star Trek there are Americans...(politics) and the Vulcan "Kolinhar" ritual to purge the last of emotions is far superior to the Jedi's "Force" (religion) Plus, the Empire uses NAZI uniforms and imagery...while Star Trek has several Nazi episodes (Nazis).
MIKE KILL THIS THREAD!!!
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 02, 2007, 07:32:31 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on April 02, 2007, 07:28:47 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 02, 2007, 07:23:03 PM
Here, this will kill the thread...
"Star Trek is better than Star Wars"
NEVER, EVER, EVER, NOT IN A INFINATE AMOUNT OF TIME WILL STAR TREK EVER BE BETTER THAN STAR WARS, ok, rant over. . . . . . . down boy, down.
At least in Star Trek there are Americans...(politics) and the Vulcan "Kolinhar" ritual to purge the last of emotions is far superior to the Jedi's "Force" (religion) Plus, the Empire uses NAZI uniforms and imagery...while Star Trek has several Nazi episodes (Nazis).
MIKE KILL THIS THREAD!!!
Star Wars is pratical, it could acttually happen!!! The charcters could be real. It shows real dynamic of humanity, and other -ities as well.
So hah.
(http://home.hawaii.rr.com/shorning/weird_thread.gif)
Quote from: shorning on April 02, 2007, 07:54:20 PM
(http://home.hawaii.rr.com/shorning/weird_thread.gif)
>:D >:D >:( >:( >:( >:( You DARE ask >:( >:( >:( >:( >:D >:D
Just kidding
Star Wars is just naturally better than Star Trek. It's all about the . . . .
uh black van from Maxwell . . . . . .
No you'll never take me alive!!!
Cap Troops have entered the base..
CAP troops have < silenece >
(http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif)
Quote from: JC004 on April 02, 2007, 08:02:16 PM
(http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif)
Why's the horse sleeping?
It's not dead is it?
Oh my, you killed the horse!!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Quote from: RogueLeader on April 02, 2007, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: JC004 on April 02, 2007, 08:02:16 PM
(http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif)
Why's the horse sleeping?
It's not dead is it?
Oh my, you killed the horse!!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
(http://forums.ircspy.com/images/smilies/flogging.gif)
>:D
Lock.