Civil Air Patrol History

Started by James Shaw, May 24, 2006, 04:45:25 PM

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James Shaw

My name is Jim Shaw and I am the CAP Assistant National Historian and the Southeast Region Historian. I am trying to find new ways to share out history with those interested. I am willing to answer questions as best as I can and as accurate as possible. I look forward to sharing with everyone willing to listen or read.  ;D
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

Chris Jacobs

One quesion that maybe you have a deffinate answer for.  How many U-Boats did CAP sink in WWII?  I somtimes get people saying 3 others saying 2.  I aways thought it was 3.  Just wondering.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

James Shaw

We were officially credited with 2 according to records but it was possibly 3. They could never confirm the third so we didnt get it. Later in the 1960's the Navy actually withdrew their support of the first two saying they coould never officially prove we had sunk the first 2. The War Department never withdrew their support of the first 2 so we have still received recognition for them.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

Chris Jacobs

That answers my question very well.  I can now be the person who really knows what the answer.  Thank you.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

drcomm

Do you have a list of the different locations National Headquarters has been located and the dates at each from beginning to present?  As a cadet, I was a member of the Ellington Composite Squadron, TX-098, in Houston, TX and knew that National was there for a time.  I have an old Leadership Laboratory Manual with "Ellington A.F.B." listed as the National HQ. 

Thanks for the service you are providing here!
David Romere, Maj, CAP
Starbase Composite Squadron, SWR-OK-151
Oil Well 767
Mitchell Award #2536 (May 1981)
Amateur Radio Call Sign: KA5OWI

BillB

The original CAP HQ was in the Office of Civilian Defense on Park Ave.in New York City. It moved from there to Bolling AFB, then to Ellengton, and finally to Maxwell.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: drcomm on May 26, 2006, 10:47:54 PM
Do you have a list of the different locations National Headquarters has been located and the dates at each from beginning to present?  As a cadet, I was a member of the Ellington Composite Squadron, TX-098, in Houston, TX and knew that National was there for a time.  I have an old Leadership Laboratory Manual with "Ellington A.F.B." listed as the National HQ. 

Thanks for the service you are providing here!


Another interesting little tidbit from an earlier online newsletter from the SER Historian... the NHQ building at Ellington was made of wood construction and somewhat resembled the Ponderosa Ranch house from the old Bonanza TV series. Being it was mostly wood construction, it presented a possible fire hazard, and the Air Force was getting away from that type of construction. When Ellington closed and NHQ moved to Maxwell, CAP NHQ took over the old base hospital building.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Eclipse

How can we substantiate my unit's initial charter?

We have photos back to 1942, but NHQ can only substantiate back to 1970.

GLR-IL-049.

Thanks!

"That Others May Zoom"

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2006, 01:55:37 AM
How can we substantiate my unit's initial charter?

We have photos back to 1942, but NHQ can only substantiate back to 1970.

GLR-IL-049.

Thanks!

Good question. I'm thinking the charter numbers date back from 1970 or so. At first, they were numerical in alphabetical order, i.e. 08 - Florida, 09 - Georgia, 42 - Texas.  Puerto Rico's was 52. Later, they adopted the current state-abbreviation charter number.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Chris Jacobs

A while back we ran into a person at a veterans day parade and asked us who we were.  then they asked us where we were stationed and they said they were in the same squadron back in WWII.  i thought that was pretty cool.  It might have been a different squadron name then but they said they met on the same airbase that we do today.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

BillB

Units with long histories need to consider doing an Oral History Project. That is contact prior members of a unit and get as much history as they can remember. Get information such as names of previous commanders, names of old time members that might be able to furnish a link back further in the past. Also get information on what the person remembers of missions, cadet and senior activities or anything that would fill in the blanks of information. And lastly furnish a copy of whatever information is gained to the CAP National Historian. You might read "From Maine To Mexico" to see the type information that might be added to your units history.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

James Shaw

Quote from: drcomm on May 26, 2006, 10:47:54 PM
Do you have a list of the different locations National Headquarters has been located and the dates at each from beginning to present?  As a cadet, I was a member of the Ellington Composite Squadron, TX-098, in Houston, TX and knew that National was there for a time.  I have an old Leadership Laboratory Manual with "Ellington A.F.B." listed as the National HQ. 

Thanks for the service you are providing here!


I have them and will try to post them soon. I am in the middle of moving from one house to a new house and have to locate the info.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

James Shaw

Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2006, 01:55:37 AM
How can we substantiate my unit's initial charter?

We have photos back to 1942, but NHQ can only substantiate back to 1970.

GLR-IL-049.

Thanks!

Many of the records from that era have been lost, destroyed, or simply not cared for. The best way is to go as far back as you have with stationary or some type of official communication from NHQ. The letter designators for the wings started out matching the Army Air Corps designators for each state. I have some records from that time period and may be able to help as soon as I locate them. It will be a few motnhs as  I am in the middle of moving to a new house. Send me a private message with details and I will see what I can do.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

Eclipse

PM Away!

Thanks for the help.

"That Others May Zoom"

captrncap

Does CAP have a listing of units and when they were chartered? It would like to know which is the oldest and down the line by wing.

SarDragon

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on May 27, 2006, 08:39:50 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2006, 01:55:37 AM
How can we substantiate my unit's initial charter?

We have photos back to 1942, but NHQ can only substantiate back to 1970.

GLR-IL-049.

Thanks!

Good question. I'm thinking the charter numbers date back from 1970 or so. At first, they were numerical in alphabetical order, i.e. 08 - Florida, 09 - Georgia, 42 - Texas.  Puerto Rico's was 52. Later, they adopted the current state-abbreviation charter number.

My original unit in NJ had a charter number in 1964 that is unchanged (except for the wing designation) since then (29059 -> NJ059).
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

flyguy06

I have been in Civil Air Patrol for over 20 years both as a Cadet and Senior member. I have always enjoyed CAP and the people in it. The organization as a whole has been very accomidating and open. In WWII when the military was segregated, CAP was always inclusive of all races and women.I admired that a lot. I am sure there were small issues, but I am talking about CAP as a whole.

Wlla Brown was the first African American female to earn a FAA commerical pilots license in the USA. She was also a member of Civil Air Patrol. There are pics of her on the internet.

In the early days of CAP, what percentage of African Americans were in CAP? How many African American Wing Comanders and/ Regiaon Comders have we had? I dont see many today. maybe one or two. Just curious and i think its good history to know.  Thanks.

flyguy06

Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 13, 2006, 03:54:39 AM
Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

Not so much as that... many records of CAP NHQ, regions and wings have been poorly kept or destroyed - it hasn't been until recently that better care has been taken to preserve historical archives. So, at the present time it may be difficult to get a specific answer to your question regards how many wing/region commanders were African-American.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

shorning

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 13, 2006, 03:54:39 AM
Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

Not so much.  I thought all CAP members were blue...

Becks

Quote from: shorning on June 13, 2006, 08:25:55 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on June 13, 2006, 03:54:39 AM
Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

Not so much.  I thought all CAP members were blue...

Good answer....

BBATW

Matt

Quote from: shorning on June 13, 2006, 08:25:55 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on June 13, 2006, 03:54:39 AM
Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

Not so much.  I thought all CAP members were blue...

Well... all I know is it ain't easy being green pilgrim ;)  Or at least so says Kermit.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

flyguy06


James Shaw

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 13, 2006, 03:54:39 AM
Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

I do not have access to any of my older CAP information. I will be moving into a new the middle part of July. Until then I will have to rely on memroy for questions. I will not ignore the questions It will just take a while to answer them correctly and accurately.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

Hammer

Can you post pictures of old CAP Uniforms?  That's what I'm interested in seeing.  Also, how many former CAP NAT/CC's were current or former Military when they were the CAP NAT/CC?

shorning

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 16, 2006, 01:24:12 PM
No, I am not blue

We accept the greenish-blue of our Army comrades as long as you can put up with the bluer-blue of us AF-types. ;D

flyguy06

Quote from: Hammer on June 16, 2006, 07:08:16 PM
Can you post pictures of old CAP Uniforms?  That's what I'm interested in seeing.  Also, how many former CAP NAT/CC's were current or former Military when they were the CAP NAT/CC?

I know General Anderson was an active duty USAF Lt Col when he was National Commander

Laplace

Quote from: caphistorian on May 24, 2006, 04:45:25 PM
My name is Jim Shaw and I am the CAP Assistant National Historian and the Southeast Region Historian. I am trying to find new ways to share out history with those interested. I am willing to answer questions as best as I can and as accurate as possible. I look forward to sharing with everyone willing to listen or read.  ;D

Jim,

With the National D-Day museum's name (and focus) change to the National World War II museum, what are your ideas on giving/loaning them CAP WWII uniforms, rank, pictures, etc. for display?  This would be a great showcase for our history and contributions.

Monty

Quote from: Hammer on June 16, 2006, 07:08:16 PM
Can you post pictures of old CAP Uniforms?  That's what I'm interested in seeing.  Also, how many former CAP NAT/CC's were current or former Military when they were the CAP NAT/CC?

There is a very neat print that is posted at the Travis AFB Museum that features CAP uniforms from the WWII era...behind plexiglass.  I can post a picture of it but bear in mind, it had to be taken at an angle so as to prevent glare from the flash.

With respect to former military-type CAP CCs, I think that the overwhelming majority of them were/are vets...merely a handful haven't served in DoD.  (Might just be easier to burn the candle from the other end and identify those that haven't served in the armed forces.)

If nobody has any objections to my posting a picture of the print at Travis, I'll figure out how to do that.....

James Shaw

Quote from: lasupplyguy on June 17, 2006, 08:13:30 PM
Quote from: caphistorian on May 24, 2006, 04:45:25 PM
My name is Jim Shaw and I am the CAP Assistant National Historian and the Southeast Region Historian. I am trying to find new ways to share out history with those interested. I am willing to answer questions as best as I can and as accurate as possible. I look forward to sharing with everyone willing to listen or read.  ;D

Jim,

With the National D-Day museum's name (and focus) change to the National World War II museum, what are your ideas on giving/loaning them CAP WWII uniforms, rank, pictures, etc. for display?  This would be a great showcase for our history and contributions.


I think that would be a good idea. I will talk with the National Historian who would be the one to make the initial contact after approval from the National Board. We have uniforms and the like available in small quantity. Usually we try and get members to donate them as well. Having a display would be a big plus for us and for those who served. I will try and get some more info and share with everyone.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

Major Lord

Sir,

I have a CAP history question that I tought you might have an answer for: Prior to CAP's Congressional Charter, we were used to wage war on the enemy. Was this a Presidential directive? Or did we have letters of marque and reprisal, as the Constitution authorizes? ( tell me it was not just a CAWG policy letter.....)

Capt. A. Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

BillB

During the period you ask about CAP was under the Army Air Force after being transferred from the Office of Civilian Defense. CAP flew the anti submarine patrol in uniform. The original CAP shoulder patch did not contain the letters U.S. they were added so that if captured they would be treated as prisioner of war. Operating under the control of the Army Air Force, CAP were not considered as civilians even though the CAP command structure except for the National Commander and small military staff were all civilians. Operating under military orders no letter of marque (which only applies to non-military ships)was needed
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

bosshawk

Re: the question about active duty AF officers who were the CAP CC.  I knew one: Brig Gen David Patton.  My memory is pretty hazy, but I think that he was probably the CAP CC in the late 60s-early 70s.  I knew him in the Washington, DC area and he was still on active duty.  In fact, he was a U-2 pilot and I think, also flew B-52s and KC-135s.  My memory seems to say that he served as CAP CC as his retirement assignment.
Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

DNall

Quote from: bosshawk on November 06, 2006, 05:08:46 AM
Re: the question about active duty AF officers ... [snip] ... My memory seems to say that he served as CAP CC as his retirement assignment.
That's usually been the deal for all the AD field grade types. We're not exactly the route to fast promotion. AFROTC tends to be the same deal.

NYWG Historian

Just wanted to let everyone know that our Wing History website has gone live and can be reached at: http://nywg.cap.gov/NYWHist/

Obviously, it will be a constant work-in-progress as we add new items.  Some of the projects I'm working on now include:

--Brief article detailing CAP assistance in 1957 to a search in the Catskills for a missing elephant!
--Bios and photos of all of the previous New York Wing Commanders
--Listing of New York Wing members receiving the Air Medal during WWII for coastal patrol duties
--Official base history of Coastal Patrol 17, Riverhead, Long Island
--Articles on famous NYWG members, including CB Colby, Isaac Burnham, Zack Mosley, etc.
--Photos from various decades showing NYWG members in action

We obviously have a NYWG focus, but will be adding other items as they come along. For example, I have copies of the informal Coastal Patrol Base 4 history written by Maj Isaac Burnham, as well as an official base history of Coastal Patrol 21, and a powerpoint presentation about CAP cadets who went to Antarctica in the late 1950s/early 1960s as part of Operation Deepfreeze.  These will all be added in the coming weeks.

Please feel free to contact me with feedback, thoughts, suggestions, etc.

Peter J. Turecek, Major, CAP
Historian
New York Wing

BillB

Zack Mosley was a Florida Wing Commander, during WW II, he had residence in Florida. I've called Jill Mosley, his daughter (a local call) to see if he was a member of NYWG, or just FLWG.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

NYWG Historian

Mosley did eventually become the FL Wing Commander.  However, he joined CAP while he was an artist working in New York.  His membership serial number was 2-1-466, indicating he was the 466th member to join New York Wing.  His Air Medal listed the serial number.

From Brave Coward Zack, Mosley's autobiography:

"While in West Palm Beach in late January 1941, I learned from Ike Vermillya and other pilot friends that they had formed a Florida Civil Air Defense Squadron....Later in 1941, Jim Starr, Syd Nesbitt and I got a bunch of pilots together at Roosevelt Field (NY)....so we organized a New York squadron of civilian pilots and planes....In February 1942, my other assistant, Andy Sprague, Marie, and I headed for Florida....My Florida firends wanted me to joine their West Palm Beach CAP squadron..." (p46-47--I've jumped around a bit).

Col Wright Vermilya was the first FL Wing CC from 12/1/41-4/6/43; Maj Richard P. Robbins from 4/6/43 - 2/17/44; Lt Col Zack Mosley from 2/17/44 - 3/31/46.


Peter J. Turecek, Major, CAP
Historian
New York Wing

SKYKING607

Does anyone know the U-boat number of those sunk?  At all the U-boat sites, there is no mention of a CAP kill.....let alone two.

Any assistance would be appreciated.
CAWG Career Captain

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: BillB on November 06, 2006, 03:36:36 AM
During the period you ask about CAP was under the Army Air Force after being transferred from the Office of Civilian Defense. CAP flew the anti submarine patrol in uniform. The original CAP shoulder patch did not contain the letters U.S. they were added so that if captured they would be treated as prisioner of war. Operating under the control of the Army Air Force, CAP were not considered as civilians even though the CAP command structure except for the National Commander and small military staff were all civilians. Operating under military orders no letter of marque (which only applies to non-military ships)was needed

Bill:

I assume this is one of those "Urban Legends" but I once heard that the "U.S." was added to the patch because with the scarlet epaulets, bright red sleeve braid, red NCO stripes, and funny-looking wings, people thought CAP officers were from some foreign Allied air force.
Another former CAP officer

JohnKachenmeister

But, I've got a serious queston:

I never remember CAP officers wearing metal pin-on rank on the flight cap.  The only devices I ever saw or heard of were the current cap piece, and before that, "C.A.P." cutout letters.  But some of the old guys (COL. Methusalah) says that for a very short time after World War II, CAP officers did wear pin-on metal rank on the flight cap. 

Do you know when such rank devices were authorized?

Another former CAP officer

Grumpy

I was a cadet in CAWG from 1959 to 1963.  I know for a fact the seniors wore their metal rank on the flight cap during that period.  They also wore it on the shoulders of their blouse.  If I remember correctly, when not wearing the blouse, they also wore it on one collar of their shirt with a CAP cut out on the other collar.

Brian Billing, Major, CAP

JohnKachenmeister

Your memory is sharp, Grumpy.  I came in in 1963 and long.  (My second squadron meeting was cancelled for the Day of Mourning for President Kennedy.)

By the time I came in, officers wore tha cap device on the flight cap but metal rankj in the shoulders of the blues and the collars of the khakis.
Another former CAP officer

Grumpy

I graduated from high school on June 13th (Friday) and on Monday the 16th, I was on my way to Lackland AFB as a brand new A3C (One stripe).  The day Kennedy was killed I had worked the flight line all night as a security cop in the alert B-52 area.  After about an hours sleep the 1st shirt was waking me up telling me to get on the truck, we were going to war.  Of course all we wound up doing was sitting in the back end of a ton and a half until they told us to stand down.  It was interesting for awhile.

Brian Billing

flyguy06

Quote from: caphistorian on June 16, 2006, 05:53:57 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on June 13, 2006, 03:54:39 AM
Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

I do not have access to any of my older CAP information. I will be moving into a new the middle part of July. Until then I will have to rely on memroy for questions. I will not ignore the questions It will just take a while to answer them correctly and accurately.

Wow. Its been almost a year and I still havent gotten that answer yet.

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: flyguy06 on May 17, 2007, 11:45:53 PM
Quote from: caphistorian on June 16, 2006, 05:53:57 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on June 13, 2006, 03:54:39 AM
Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

I do not have access to any of my older CAP information. I will be moving into a new the middle part of July. Until then I will have to rely on memroy for questions. I will not ignore the questions It will just take a while to answer them correctly and accurately.

Wow. Its been almost a year and I still havent gotten that answer yet.

You probably won't, either.  Keeping track of race statistics is a phenomenon that started in the late 1960's.  The US military in the 1940's was segregated by race out of tradition dating back to the Civil War.  In the Civil War, the Union Army formed units of freed slaves under white officers, largely for PR/psychological effect.  Some units were successful, enough that the tradition continued.  The 9th and 10th Cavalry regiments, posted at Ft. Huachuca, Arizona Territory fought the Indians.  Indians, seeing black men for the first time, marveled at their skin color and coarse hair. They called them "Buffalo Soldiers" because the skin color and hair remided them of buffalo.  The name stuck, and both the 9th and 10th unit crests feature the outline image of an American bison.

Negro units in the US Army were collectively identified as "United States Colored Troops" and out west and in other places at old forts you can still see graves with the abbreviation "USCT" instead of "US Army."

John Pershing commanded the 9th Cavalry for a time, and got the nickname "Black Jack" for his service in that post.  By World War I he had reduced the nickname to a single word, "Blackjack" and since it sounded cool, he kept it and encouraged its use.

The military was segregated through the Second World War.  CAP, initially organized under Civil Defense, did not fall under the military tradition of unit segregation, and admitted black pilots and support personnel on the same basis as white volunteers.  To my knowledge, no records indicating race were kept.

In 1948, President Truman ordered de-segregation of the Armed Forces by an executive order in his capacity as commander-in-chief.  Legislation was not required, since there was never a law passed to segregate the military in the first place, only a long-standing tradition.

It is interesting to not that PRIOR to the Civil War there are examples of Negroes who had been freed from slavery joining both the Army and the Navy.  Segregation by race did not begin in the military until the Civil War.

Sorry I can't answer your specific question.  I don't think anybody can, though.
Another former CAP officer

Grumpy

Major Kachenmeister, that was a GREAT history lesson.  I enjoyed reading the history of the black soldiers.

Thanks,

Grumpy

alexalvarez

Ch, Lt. Col., Alex Alvarez
Alamo Composite Squadron, Bexar County Squadron, San Antonio, Texas
Group V Chaplain
Mitchell 1967, Earhart 1967, C/ Lt. Col. 1969
Fifty Year Member 2014

ColonelJack

Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

James Shaw

Quote from: flyguy06 on May 17, 2007, 11:45:53 PM
Quote from: caphistorian on June 16, 2006, 05:53:57 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on June 13, 2006, 03:54:39 AM
Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

I do not have access to any of my older CAP information. I will be moving into a new the middle part of July. Until then I will have to rely on memroy for questions. I will not ignore the questions It will just take a while to answer them correctly and accurately.

Wow. Its been almost a year and I still havent gotten that answer yet.

Yes it has almost been a year. My family completed our move without my help. My stuff is still in boxes mostly in storage. I lost the use of my right arm September 18th of last year and am now just getting the use back. I can barely drive, I cant lift my 7 year old son, so wow it has been a year. I will keep my word and get to the information when I am capable. I can type with one hand good and the other like chopsticks.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

alexalvarez

I have lived through history. (Earth forming, large animals roaming the earth, etc).
Ch, Lt. Col., Alex Alvarez
Alamo Composite Squadron, Bexar County Squadron, San Antonio, Texas
Group V Chaplain
Mitchell 1967, Earhart 1967, C/ Lt. Col. 1969
Fifty Year Member 2014

shorning

Quote from: alexalvarez on May 18, 2007, 10:40:23 PM
I have lived through history. (Earth forming, large animals roaming the earth, etc).


JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: shorning on May 19, 2007, 12:00:38 AM
Quote from: alexalvarez on May 18, 2007, 10:40:23 PM
I have lived through history. (Earth forming, large animals roaming the earth, etc).



... Clubbing women and dragging them back to the cave...  I miss the old days!
Another former CAP officer

JC004

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on May 19, 2007, 01:49:16 PM
Quote from: shorning on May 19, 2007, 12:00:38 AM
Quote from: alexalvarez on May 18, 2007, 10:40:23 PM
I have lived through history. (Earth forming, large animals roaming the earth, etc).



... Clubbing women and dragging them back to the cave...  I miss the old days!

Was there also cadet clubbing/dragging?

flyguy06

Actually, I always read that the 9th and 10th Calvary came about after the Civil War in the 1880's.

JohnKachenmeister

You are correct, Flyguy.  I must not have made that clear.  The 9th and 10th were units formed to fight Indians, not to fight the Civil War.

They were, however, like the Civil War Negro Units, made up of black troops under white officers.  The tradition of Negro units began with the Civil War.

In 1948, when the military was de-segregated, the blacks were scattered into formerly all-white units.  They brought with them the tradition of "Jody Calls."  Prior to integration, most Army units drilled by the numbers... hut, twop, threep, and fourp.  The idea of singing songs to keep the marching beat was brought over by the fellows from the old Negro units, who sang about some guy named "Jody" who would run off with your girl while you were gone.

Another former CAP officer

flyguy06

When I was in Iraq in 2006, I visited this airbase and the main unit was the 332nd Air Expiditionary Wing. A direct descendant unit from the Tuskegee Airmen, There that means the Tuskegee Airman unit is still an active duty unit today. I thought that was very interesting. And the unit recognizes it and traces their lineage to the Tuskegee Airmen. In fact a few months before I got there, two original Tuskegee Airmen has visited the unit (Why these old men would want to go to Iraq is beyond my understanding though)

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: flyguy06 on May 21, 2007, 03:16:39 PM
When I was in Iraq in 2006, I visited this airbase and the main unit was the 332nd Air Expiditionary Wing. A direct descendant unit from the Tuskegee Airmen, There that means the Tuskegee Airman unit is still an active duty unit today. I thought that was very interesting. And the unit recognizes it and traces their lineage to the Tuskegee Airmen. In fact a few months before I got there, two original Tuskegee Airmen has visited the unit (Why these old men would want to go to Iraq is beyond my understanding though)

Perhaps I can help you with that understanding.

When I was a city cop in Toledo, I answered a burglary call at 1:00 in the afternoon.  Daytime house burgaries are common, since the burglar usually finds nobody home, and if someone is home, can pass himself off as a magazine salesman, or something.  The house was that of a black attorney that we all called "J.D." and who was a very familiar figure around the various courthouses.  He was in his 70's, and still working.

He came home from court to find a 19-year old gangbanger ransacking his house.  He was too far away from his gun to get it in time, so he grabbed a golf club and began whacking the burglar.  The burglar fled the house, but J.D. chased him for more than two blocks, continuously hitting him with the golf club.  The golf club was bent and had blood splatter on it when I got there.

This was the first time I had seen J.D.'s house, since I usually saw him either in court or in bars.  (He was a real heavy drinker.)  He had a shadowbox with AF pilot wings, and WWII medals.  I asked him if he was one of the Tuskegee Airmen, and he told me he had been a fighter pilot, and flew P-51's during World War II.

My point is, once you are a warrior, especially a successful one, you NEVER QUIT.  You chase the punk until one of you gives out.  And if you can travel to a war zone to help out, even if it is just to provide a sense of tradition and heritage to those who are fighting now, you go there.

While I was talking to J.D. about the Tuskeegee Airmen, the dispatcher called me.  He told me to go to Mercy Hospital, since there was a guy in the E.R. complaining that "A crazy old man attacked him with a golf club."

In the immortal words of Sgt. Preston of the Yukon... "Well, King, this case is closed!"
Another former CAP officer

alexalvarez

Right on Maj. John Kachenmeister, Right on!
Ch, Lt. Col., Alex Alvarez
Alamo Composite Squadron, Bexar County Squadron, San Antonio, Texas
Group V Chaplain
Mitchell 1967, Earhart 1967, C/ Lt. Col. 1969
Fifty Year Member 2014

SKYKING607

Any further information on the locations of the U-Boat sinkings credited to CAP aircraft?  In all the U-Boat web-sites, there is no mention of any loses to CAP aircraft.

Ideas?   U-Boat number? 
CAWG Career Captain

jimmydeanno

#59
Quote from: SKYKING607 on May 22, 2007, 05:22:21 PM
Any further information on the locations of the U-Boat sinkings credited to CAP aircraft?  In all the U-Boat web-sites, there is no mention of any loses to CAP aircraft.

Ideas?   U-Boat number? 

Quote from: http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503081737.pdfIt was one of these larger planes armed with depth charges that made the first CAP "kill." Captain Johnny Haggins and Major Wynant Farr, flying out of Atlantic City, New Jersey, had just become airborne in a Grumman Widgeon (an amphibian, a plane that can land on land or water) when they received a message from another CAP patrol that "contact" had been made about 25 miles off the coast.

The other patrol was low on fuel and was being forced to return to base, so Haggins and Farr sped to the area, while flying a scant 300 feet above the ocean. When the Haggins-Farr patrol reached the area, no sub was in sight. Very shortly thereafter however, Major Farr spotted the U-boat as it cruised beneath the surface of the waves. After radioing to
shore, and knowing that they could not accurately estimate the depth of the sub, the crew decided to follow the sub until (they hoped) it rose to periscope depth, when they would have a better chance of hitting the sub with their depth charges.

For over three hours they shadowed the U-boat and eventually ran low on fuel. Just before they had to turn back, the U-boat rose back up to periscope depth. Captain Haggins swung the plane around quickly and aligned it with the sub. He then began a gentle dive to 100 feet where he leveled off behind the sub's periscope wake. Major Farr pulled the cable release and the first depth charge plummeted into the water just off the sub's bow.

Seconds later a large water and oil geyser erupted, the explosion literally blowing the sub's forward portion out of the water. Shock waves from the blast rocked the patrol plane.

As the sub sank below the surface, it left a huge oil slick as the target for the second run.
On the second run, the remaining depth charge was dropped squarely in the middle of the oil slick.

After the second geyser had settled, pieces of debris began to float to the surface. The CAP Coastal Patrol's first kill was confirmed!

Quote from: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/cap.htmIt had reported 173 U-boats sighted, sunk two, and had dropped a total of 83 bombs and depth charges upon 57 of these – with several other "probables." It's aircrews flew 86,865 missions over coastal waters for a total of 244,600 hours – which approximates to 24 million miles. The patrols summoned help for 91 ships in distress and for 363 survivors of submarine attacks. It sighted and reported 17 floating mines, and, at the request of the US Navy, flew 5,684 special convoy missions. Although the victory against the submarine was a joint operation of the Army, Navy, Coast Guard, and the CAP, it is a fact that the U-boats disappeared in direct proportion to the spread of CAP operations.

Quote from: http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Air_Power/CAP/AP32.htmBy 1943, Civil Air Patrol coastal patrols had flown 244,600 hours totaling 24 million miles (38.6 million kilometers), summoning help for 91 ships in distress and aiding in the rescue of 363 survivors of submarine attacks. CAP patrols spotted 173 enemy submarines, attacking 57 with bombs or depth charges, damaging 10 and sinking 2. In recognition of its effectiveness, President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued an Executive Order on April 29, 1943, establishing the Civil Air Patrol as the auxiliary of the U.S. Army Air Forces. At the time of its transfer to the AAF, the Civil Air Patrol ranks had swelled to more than 75,000 volunteers.

Quote from: http://www.bookrags.com/Civil_Air_PatrolThe CAP's first kill was claimed with one of the larger aircraft. The Grumman G-44 Widgeon, armed with two depth charges and crewed by Captain Johnny Haggins and Major Wynant Farr, was scrambled when another CAP patrol radioed that they had encountered an enemy submarine but were returning to base (due to low fuel). After scanning the area, Farr spotted the U-boat cruising beneath the surface of the waves. Unable to accurately determine the depth of the vessel, Haggins and Ferr radioed the situation back to base and followed the enemy in hopes that it would rise to periscope depth. For three hours, the crew shadowed the submarine, but it didn't rise. Just as Haggins was about to return to base, the U-boat rose to periscope depth, and Haggins swung the aircraft around and aligned with the submarine and dove to 100 feet (30 m). Farr released one of the two depth charges, literally blowing the submarine's front out of the water. As it left an oil slick, Farr released the second charge and debris appeared on the surface, confirming the U-boat's demise and the Civil Air Patrol's first kill.

The kill was perhaps the crowning achievement for CAP's Coastal Patrol, which continued to operate for about 18 months (from March 5, 1942 to August 31, 1943) before being officially retired. In this timeframe, the Coastal Patrol reported 173 U-boats, 57 of which were attacked by CAP aircraft with 83 ordnance pieces, and two of which were confirmed sunk. For a group of volunteer civilians, this is without a doubt a monumental achievement. In addition, the Coastal Patrol flew 86,865 missions, logging over 244,600 hours. Coastal Patrol aircraft reported 91 ships in distress and played a key role in rescuing 363 survivors of U-boat attacks. 117 floating mines were reported and 5,684 convoy missions were flown for the Navy.[3]



Other sources listed:

Quote from: http://www.amazon.com/Maine-Mexico-Americas-Private-Against/dp/0964474018/ref=sr_1_1/002-1524621-4823222?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179857516&sr=1-1
Keefer, Louis E., From Maine to Mexico: With America's Private Pilots in the Fight against Nazi U-Boats. Reston, Va.: COTU Publishing, 1997

Quote from: http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Minute-Men-story-Patrol/dp/B0007HH1US/ref=sr_1_1/002-1524621-4823222?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179857568&sr=1-1Neprud, Robert E., Flying Minute Men: The Story of the Civil Air Patrol. New York: Duell, Sloan & Pearce, 1948

The last quoted source above was an excellent read, and provided many names and locations to do some further research on.  I obviously don't have the time to do such right now, but if you are that interested, those are some good starting points...



If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

James Shaw

I traded emails with a retired US Navy Captain who now  lives in Germany a few months ago. He is actually part of a professional study group that has been tracking these u-boat sinking for quite some time. He said that there was a U-Boat found pretty close to the area where CAP sunk theres. When they found the sub it was discovered that the hull number and identification numbers were made after the CAP sinking. Alot of the same information can be read out of a book called Shadow Divers. They actually had a CAP person on the salvage crew as part of the research group. He is mentioned in the book several times.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

alamrcn

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on May 21, 2007, 04:25:29 PMPerhaps I can help you with that understanding.

That is a great story! Almost seemed like one of those "too good to be true" e-mails that start off as fiction and work their way to becoming urban legend. There are far too few of these types of Black heroes alive today -- too much emphasis on vulgar "artists" and ignorant sports figures. And unfortunately, most of the kids like in this story believe that if you are respectful to people, productive in society, and see a home and family as being successful -- well, you just aren't Black anymore. The thug-life "culture" is killing off the hard work and hard suffering that men and women like J.D. and his ansestors have gone through in the last 150 years.

I have two in-laws that come from an Army Aviation unit -- no clue which -- that trace their unit linage back to the "Buffalo Soldiers" of the Civil War... THAT is pretty high speed!


Finally, you've probably all seen this Civil Air Patrol patch from the 99th Pursuit Composite Squadron in Nebraska Wing. One of the founding members of the fairly "urban" unit was a Tuskegee Airman. The unit's name and patch design are officially authorized and recognised by the Tuskegee Airman association group. There's more history about the squadron on their website (Google it)...

Thank you, Kach, and all for this enlightened conversation of Civil Air Patrol and Military history.

- Ace



Ace Browning, Maj, CAP
History Hoarder
71st Wing, Minnesota

CASH172

Question and sorry if someone already answered it, was the 2007 McGuire AFB Expo the largest CAP activity in history.  There were at least 1100 CAP members there with about 300 non CAP members supporting the airshow. 

afgeo4

Quote from: BillB on May 26, 2006, 11:51:11 PM
The original CAP HQ was in the Office of Civilian Defense on Park Ave.in New York City. It moved from there to Bolling AFB, then to Ellengton, and finally to Maxwell.
Would you have an address of the NHQ on Park Avenue in New York?
GEORGE LURYE

NYWG Historian

In June 1943, National Headquarters was moved to 500 Fifth Avenue in New York City from Washington, DC.  In April 1945, National HQ was moved to Fort Worth, TX.

(Source: Neprud, Flying Minute Men, p142, p218)
Peter J. Turecek, Major, CAP
Historian
New York Wing

NYWG Historian

The Palm Beach Post has an article from this weekend describing a movie made regarding the operations of Coastal Patrol Base 3 in Lantana, Florida.  Apparently the local historical society made a 56-minute movie interviewing some subchasers and relatives.  The link is below.  I'm ordering my copy today....

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2007/06/03/0603CAP.html
Peter J. Turecek, Major, CAP
Historian
New York Wing

JohnKachenmeister

Is Charles Weeks any relation to Kermit Weeks?  Kermit Weeks owns the "Fantasy of Flight" museum in Polk City, FL.
Another former CAP officer

NYWG Historian

Possibly, but I don't think so.  Kermit Weeks' parents are Reverend Marta Weeks and L. Austin Weeks.  They are large benefactors to UofMiami, providing $8 million recently for new music library.

Kermit Weeks' grandfather apparently got royalty commissions to Australia's biggest oil field...http://www.forbes.com/vehicles/2001/01/15/0115garage.html

After WWII, Charles Weeks Jr. was a corporate pilot for his career.

Ohh to have that many beautiful planes to fly.....(or even one!)
Peter J. Turecek, Major, CAP
Historian
New York Wing