HWSNBN and Harwell

[lordmonar]

In CAP terms, you make changes to the governance scheme and supporting regulations, change the leadership, develop Core Values and Ethics doctrine, and improve the professional development system.  Which should sound familiar.)

You know....I think I have heard that before......I just can't put my finger on it.   

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Hope you're ready to shut down every unit south of I-80 if that's the case.

You DO realize, of course, that I-80 is pretty far north in the CONUS. You shut down every unit south of there, you've shut down CAP's largest wing, Florida, as well as the megawings that are Texas, Pennsylvania (by cutting it in half) and California (severing everything south of San Francisco). Entire regions would bite the dust. Most of my home state would also be cut off, since I-80 is the Ohio Turnpike and Columbus and Cincinnati, and even most of Cleveland, are south of that corridor. So Spaceman, speaking as a native of northeast Ohio who now lives in the Tampa Bay area...

You, my friend, must keep such malodorous comments to yourself!

Anyway...

Since I think I'm the one who brought up the GOBN in the first place, I will say I agree with Ned. But there are definitely cliques around the organization, and people who aren't willing to play with others. Some units are overly protective of their airplanes, to the point where their reluctance to let another unit's pilots borrow it is palpable. Some units won't play with others when it comes to training, preferring their own people because they "know" them better. Of course, the remedies here are obvious — consistent and constant training and awareness across the board, and a mentality that desires spreading the wealth of knowledge among everyone.

[Spaceman3750]

Hope you're ready to shut down every unit south of I-80 if that's the case.

You DO realize, of course, that I-80 is pretty far north in the CONUS. You shut down every unit south of there, you've shut down CAP's largest wing, Florida, as well as the megawings that are Texas, Pennsylvania (by cutting it in half) and California (severing everything south of San Francisco). Entire regions would bite the dust. Most of my home state would also be cut off, since I-80 is the Ohio Turnpike and Columbus and Cincinnati, and even most of Cleveland, are south of that corridor. So Spaceman, speaking as a native of northeast Ohio who now lives in the Tampa Bay area...

You, my friend, must keep such malodorous comments to yourself!

Anyway...

Since I think I'm the one who brought up the GOBN in the first place, I will say I agree with Ned. But there are definitely cliques around the organization, and people who aren't willing to play with others. Some units are overly protective of their airplanes, to the point where their reluctance to let another unit's pilots borrow it is palpable. Some units won't play with others when it comes to training, preferring their own people because they "know" them better. Of course, the remedies here are obvious — consistent and constant training and awareness across the board, and a mentality that desires spreading the wealth of knowledge among everyone.

Sorry, I was making a fairly local comment involving some fairly local politics.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And since the GOBN always resides several echelons above me, I already know it is futile to actually attempt to correct the problem by working through my chain of command or the IG.  Instead, I will expose it by complaining about it on the interwebs.

Colonel Lee, I have a heck of a lot of respect for you - really.

However, and maybe it is just my own experience with human venality, inside and outside of CAP, I do not have the faith in "the system" (for lack of a better term) that you do.

From my experience as a child of divorce, to trying to use "the system" to end being bullied throughout most of my school years (school administrators back in my day were shining examples of The Peter Principle), I eventually came to be quite cynical about such things.  There are systems that are corrupt through and through, there are systems that are basically decent with some bad eggs, and there are systems that get things done.  Where CAP belongs is down to the experience of each member, I suppose.

I have done both the chain of command and IG systems for various issues, some of which I have listed here on CT. 

In one case of the former, I had a commander who was not willing to "go to bat" for me and gave me formal permission to go over his head.  However, when I actually did so, and he got a call from the wing commander asking what the Sam Hill was going on, he phoned me and gave me Hades in a handbasket (complete with colourful metaphors and a declaration that as far as he was concerned, my CAP career was over)...basically, I think he thought I would not actually do what he authorised me to do.

I figured I had nothing to lose, so I actually contacted National.  I do not remember who got back with me (it was not Ms Parker) but she advised me to go on Patron status for a year or two ("until things cooled down") and then try to transfer to another unit...the nearest of which was 80 miles away one-way.

That led to my first departure from CAP, lasting three years.

In an even smellier case of the latter, acting on a fairly egregious safety violation and (to put it mildly) conduct unbecoming an adult who should have known better, I filed an IG complaint - with my commander's written backing.  Results?  Person cited in IG complaint was friends with a lot of people at Wing (GOBN?!), including Wing IG.  I received reprimands and my commander was dismissed from his position as squadron commander.

That led to my second departure from CAP, lasting almost four years.

(Note:  Every organization composed of human beings will inevitably have flaws.  Sometimes major flaws.  And to paraphrase Garrison Keillor, about half of CAP leaders are below average.  The way to improve or develop an organization is to both address systemic problems and to continuously train and upgrade the skills of the members and leaders.  I have not yet come across an organization that was improved because discouraged members complained about a situation on the internet instead of taking action.  If cronyism is a problem in an organization, you identify and make changes to the system in a way that promotes a meritocracy. 

In CAP terms, you make changes to the governance scheme and supporting regulations, change the leadership, develop Core Values and Ethics doctrine, and improve the professional development system.  Which should sound familiar.)

In the case of the first incident, I do not think the leadership/core values bits were in place, or at least not emphasised.  In the case of the second incident, they were.

So, sir, I hope you will forgive me for not having complete faith in a system, run by human beings who often have their own agendas.

I cannot emphasise enough that my examples were my own experiences, and YMM infinitely V.

I guess I should consider myself lucky then, since I haven't experience such things.

Good for you.  I am pleased for you.  I mean that.

I hate politics, so I stay away from it.

I simply refuse to knowingly take part in politics, whether it be office politics, CAP politics, church politics, whatever.  Does not compute.

I'm a professional and will work with anyone regardless of personality differences.

I have often said that I can get along with and/or work with anyone who wants to get along with me.  I fortunately do possess (to some extent) the ability to suspend personal dislikes to get a task done in some cases.

Either way, I strongly believe that attitude as well as performance go a long way. If you're one who complains all the time, odds are your opportunities will be limited. If you're a go getter who makes things happen, odds are more doors will open for you. Is this because of GOBN? I would argue that this is despite any (possible) GOBN.

And I am very pleased that it has worked so well for you.

It has not for everyone.

[SunDog]

Yeah, I'm still not seeing how that relates to anything CAP. Can you explain like I'm 5?

Much like the development of some early religions, "GOBNism" is an attempt to make sense of events which would otherwise be incomprehensible by relying on unseen, hidden forces.

Restated, if I honestly believe I deserve to be promoted (or have an aircraft assigned to my squadron, or get my first choice NCSA, etc.) and that does not occur, something must have gone wrong.  Since I already know that I am worthy, the fault must lie . . . elsewhere.  The explanation that best fits the (lack of ) facts is that "those guys" at wing / region / NHQ are playing favorites and making choices based on friendships instead of following the rules.

Thus I can comfortably maintain my entirely reasonable belief that I am worthy of promotion, and I don't have to find fault with my squadron commander or staff (heck, I know those guys and they are good people).  It would be uncomfortable if I had to consider that I might not be worthy of promotion, or if I had to have a frank conversation with my local chain of command.

And since the GOBN always resides several echelons above me, I already know it is futile to actually attempt to correct the problem by working through my chain of command or the IG.  Instead, I will expose it by complaining about it on the interwebs.


(Note:  Every organization composed of human beings will inevitably have flaws.  Sometimes major flaws.  And to paraphrase Garrison Keillor, about half of CAP leaders are below average.  The way to improve or develop an organization is to both address systemic problems and to continuously train and upgrade the skills of the members and leaders.  I have not yet come across an organization that was improved because discouraged members complained about a situation on the internet instead of taking action.  If cronyism is a problem in an organization, you identify and make changes to the system in a way that promotes a meritocracy. 

In CAP terms, you make changes to the governance scheme and supporting regulations, change the leadership, develop Core Values and Ethics doctrine, and improve the professional development system.  Which should sound familiar.)

Good grief, Ned. . . we didn't say griping about it here would fix it. It's just a place to vent, to communicate. And I can count things like mission aircrew, airplanes, and can also read a map. No grand conspiracy needed, just some self-serving yahoos who almost certainly don't see themselves that way. 

You presume too much, by assuming I haven't brought it up to my CoC - one wonders why you did so? Long experience as an apologist? You read sincere, and I don't mean to be rude - probably you don't intend to condescend, either; I'm not taking it personal, but if it walks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Sorry, I was making a fairly local comment involving some fairly local politics.

Spaceman, I apologize for my lack of situational awareness. But you have to admit, my overdramatic reply was at least entertaining.

[PHall]

Sorry, I was making a fairly local comment involving some fairly local politics.

Spaceman, I apologize for my lack of situational awareness. But you have to admit, my overdramatic reply was at least entertaining.

Actually, no it wasn't. It made you look like a bully.

[FW]

Before everyone get's too cranky, let's remember we are talking "Hysterical History"! 

Harwell and HWSNBN were very different commanders, and except for the uniform uproar their tenure brought on, had two different approaches to the office (?) Ok, so is trolling for salutes at Maxwell any different than the need for personal bling?

How this devolved into an argument on the "GOBN" or "Cronyism" is understandable, but unfortunate. CAP is run by a small percentage of dedicated members.  Those who just wish to fly, or take care of cadets, or wear a specific type of uniform, or just pay dues don't get involved with the "inner workings" of CAP.  They may get upset when things go differently, however it is easier to blame the "other guy" than really work for positive change.

We have seen a significant drop of membership in the last 3 years or so.  We have seen similar drops in past years as well.  Are we to accept them as inevitable?  I would think not.  Maybe we need a different way to screw in that "light bulb" mentioned in another thread? I want more than the same old same old.....

[SunDog]

Shoot, you're right -  sorry I was cranky.  I resolve to do one positive CAP thing a month for the rest of the year.

[A.Member]

Some units are overly protective of their airplanes, to the point where their reluctance to let another unit's pilots borrow it is palpable. Some units won't play with others when it comes to training, preferring their own people because they "know" them better.

Units do not own airplanes.  CAP owns the airplanes and they are available to every member that meets the organizations qualifications.   If that's not that case, then the Wing needs to correctly reset the expectations for that unit.   We used to have that issue in our Wing...drove me nuts!

[Storm Chaser]

And I am very pleased that it has worked so well for you.

It has not for everyone.

Maybe not, but it can. The first step is to stop being cynical and a downer. As I've said before; the right attitude can make a huge difference.

You can't improve the system if you don't have faith in it. You may not be able to change others, but you can certainly change yourself. And sometimes that's what it takes to make a difference.

The system can most definitely be improved, but it takes true leaders to do so. And leaders are those who make things happen, not those who just complain when things don't work out the way they want.

EDIT: CyBorg, I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to pick on you or single you out. I understand that you've had many bad experiences; I know others have too. However, I truly believe in what I'm saying here. I've seen the results.

[Private Investigator]

Since I think I'm the one who brought up the GOBN in the first place, I will say I agree with Ned. But there are definitely cliques around the organization, and people who aren't willing to play with others. Some units are overly protective of their airplanes, to the point where their reluctance to let another unit's pilots borrow it is palpable. Some units won't play with others when it comes to training, preferring their own people because they "know" them better. Of course, the remedies here are obvious — consistent and constant training and awareness across the board, and a mentality that desires spreading the wealth of knowledge among everyone.

That will always be a problem. It is just human nature on the lowest level.   

[JeffDG]

Some units are overly protective of their airplanes, to the point where their reluctance to let another unit's pilots borrow it is palpable. Some units won't play with others when it comes to training, preferring their own people because they "know" them better.

Units do not own airplanes.  CAP owns the airplanes and they are available to every member that meets the organizations qualifications.   If that's not that case, then the Wing needs to correctly reset the expectations for that unit.   We used to have that issue in our Wing...drove me nuts!

Exactly...if I'm current CAPF5, and I'm somewhere that there is a plane, and I have a uniform with me, I can go into WMIRS, see if the plane's booked for something else, put in a C7 proficiency sortie, and get a flight release, all without talking to anyone at the local unit if I so choose...at least in my wing with all the aircraft having lock-boxes with the keys in them.

[Storm Chaser]

Some units are overly protective of their airplanes, to the point where their reluctance to let another unit's pilots borrow it is palpable. Some units won't play with others when it comes to training, preferring their own people because they "know" them better.

Units do not own airplanes.  CAP owns the airplanes and they are available to every member that meets the organizations qualifications.   If that's not that case, then the Wing needs to correctly reset the expectations for that unit.   We used to have that issue in our Wing...drove me nuts!

Exactly...if I'm current CAPF5, and I'm somewhere that there is a plane, and I have a uniform with me, I can go into WMIRS, see if the plane's booked for something else, put in a C7 proficiency sortie, and get a flight release, all without talking to anyone at the local unit if I so choose...at least in my wing with all the aircraft having lock-boxes with the keys in them.

In most wings is not as simple as that, but it's not that difficult either. You need to follow any local procedures to schedule the airplane, but once you do that, anyone qualified should be able to schedule and fly it, especially if they're paying out of pocket.

[Private Investigator]

Some units are overly protective of their airplanes, to the point where their reluctance to let another unit's pilots borrow it is palpable. Some units won't play with others when it comes to training, preferring their own people because they "know" them better.

Units do not own airplanes.  CAP owns the airplanes and they are available to every member that meets the organizations qualifications.   If that's not that case, then the Wing needs to correctly reset the expectations for that unit.   We used to have that issue in our Wing...drove me nuts!

Exactly...if I'm current CAPF5, and I'm somewhere that there is a plane, and I have a uniform with me, I can go into WMIRS, see if the plane's booked for something else, put in a C7 proficiency sortie, and get a flight release, all without talking to anyone at the local unit if I so choose...at least in my wing with all the aircraft having lock-boxes with the keys in them.

In most wings is not as simple as that, but it's not that difficult either. You need to follow any local procedures to schedule the airplane, but once you do that, anyone qualified should be able to schedule and fly it, especially if they're paying out of pocket.

That is the Catch-22. Some local procedures are so tough that General Chuch Yeager can not fly until he is checked out by Gomer and approved by Goober.   

[a2capt]

That is the Catch-22. Some local procedures are so tough that General Chuch Yeager can not fly until he is checked out by Gomer and approved by Goober.   

Which you have no idea how real it is. When you're dealing with a defiant masked GOBN Flying Club Unit that says "suuuuuuuure, we'll check you out on the local procedures, of our little 2160x60 strip, with cliffs at both ends and a hill on one side" .. and you try to schedule a time, "well, I'm not available for the next 18 weeks except at 1AM every fourth day, for 30 minutes, so it might take a while".


Been there. Done that. Said unit has largely changed since then. But I'm not far off on my description. Never did bother to get "qualified" to fly "their" airplane. Found it was easier, and almost as fast, to drive 78 miles to get another aircraft.

[ZigZag911]

Why don't we just refer to HWSNBN as "Voldemort" and be done with it?!?

[FW]

^ Voldemort came back to create more havoc. The other guy will only be a topic of conversation. 

[SarDragon]

That is the Catch-22. Some local procedures are so tough that General Chuch Yeager can not fly until he is checked out by Gomer and approved by Goober.   

Which you have no idea how real it is. When you're dealing with a defiant masked GOBN Flying Club Unit that says "suuuuuuuure, we'll check you out on the local procedures, of our little 2160x60 strip, with cliffs at both ends and a hill on one side" .. and you try to schedule a time, "well, I'm not available for the next 18 weeks except at 1AM every fourth day, for 30 minutes, so it might take a while".


Been there. Done that. Said unit has largely changed since then. But I'm not far off on my description. Never did bother to get "qualified" to fly "their" airplane. Found it was easier, and almost as fast, to drive 78 miles to get another aircraft.

Yes, I've noticed big changes in that unit. They even willingly fly O-rides these days. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Sorry, I was making a fairly local comment involving some fairly local politics.

Spaceman, I apologize for my lack of situational awareness. But you have to admit, my overdramatic reply was at least entertaining.

Actually, no it wasn't. It made you look like a bully.

Hmmph. Sometimes, humor is hard to convey on Teh Intarwebs unless you spell it out.