Can chaplains be on Review/Promotion/Membership boards?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Heard about it, makes sense, but can't find reg.

[JeffDG]

I'm only aware of two positions that cannot be held by Chaplains:
-Commander
-Inspector General (can be asst, but Wing/Region Primary IGs cannot be dual-hatted with any other duty position)

[Eclipse]

Yes.

CAPR 39-2 Page 4:
1-5. Unit Membership Board (Applicable to cadet sponsors, senior members and patron
members assigned to local units). All unit commanders must appoint a unit membership board to
assist the commander in determining the eligibility of new applicants. Membership Boards may
consist of 1 to 3 members. Individuals related to the prospective member should not sit on the
Board. CAP Pamphlet 52-26, The CAP First Talk Guide, is an excellent resource and its use is
recommended when interviewing prospective members. Individuals in other membership
categories that wish to transfer into active units must also meet with the Unit Membership Board.

CAPR 35-5 Page 9:
a. Officer. The commander at each echelon will appoint a promotion board to consider
all promotion and demotion actions and make recommendations to the promoting authority. The
promotion board will consist of at least three officers as follows: personnel officer, professional
development officer and one additional officer designated by the commander. The chairman of
the promotion board should be equal to or higher than the highest grade being recommended.
Appointment to promotion boards will be reflected by appropriate personnel authorizations. The
board is responsible for considering all pertinent information pertaining to promotion actions and
ensuring that the member being considered for promotion meets the minimum eligibility
requirements. The promotion board should meet frequently enough to assure timely
consideration of recommendations received. The action by the promotion board will be in the
form of a recommendation to the approving authority as to whether the promotion or demotion
should be approved or disapproved.

b. Noncommissioned Officer. Board Chairmen will be the appropriate commander
(Squadron, Wing, Region or National Commander) for the level of promotion. Board members
will be senior in grade to the candidates and will be appointed by the presiding commander.
Boards may be held in person or be conducted telephonically and will consist of no less than the
Chairman and five Board members

[Майор Хаткевич]

According to a recent chaplain course, the answer is no, at least for a promotion board. But I'm not seeing it in any regs.

[Eclipse]

Well, they can disavow involvement in anything they like, I suppose, but 265-1 makes no mention,
and the other regs that indicate what Chaplains may and may not do are not unclear.

I would imagine most units that have a Chaplain have other more qualified people for these boards,
however I can't see why they would be excluded.

Both boards are advisory only and a CC can ignore their recommendations.

[Chappie]

While there is nothing in the regs that cover this specifically, having been a Chaplain at every level of CAP for the past 20 years, my rule of thumb is not to be on a committee that deals with personnel issues.   I have been asked to advice commanders about personnel...had to counsel with cadets and seniors who were disappointed by actions taken --- be it assignments or promotions.  The chaplain should be Switzerland when it comes to personnel matters   A chaplain needs to be available to help facilitate the needs and be of assistance to all members of the unit.

[TheSkyHornet]

To Chappie's point, it's generally considered "inappropriate" for a Chaplain to be consulted for personnel matters because that individual may lose confidence in the Chaplain.

This is the individual that should be available for people with spiritual/personal needs when they so choose, and to make that same person the one who effectively "judges" them in their performance as an officer provides a conflict.

Previously, our Chaplain sat in on cadet promotion review boards when asked by the Commander; however, over the last just-under-year, I have requested each time that the Chaplain not sit in on boards because I don't want this to be someone cadets feel that they can't approach outside the normal scope of the meeting.

[PHall]

To Chappie's point, it's generally considered "inappropriate" for a Chaplain to be consulted for personnel matters because that individual may lose confidence in the Chaplain.

This is the individual that should be available for people with spiritual/personal needs when they so choose, and to make that same person the one who effectively "judges" them in their performance as an officer provides a conflict.

Previously, our Chaplain sat in on cadet promotion review boards when asked by the Commander; however, over the last just-under-year, I have requested each time that the Chaplain not sit in on boards because I don't want this to be someone cadets feel that they can't approach outside the normal scope of the meeting.

So how do you feel about the Chaplain being in the room during the board to act as an independent observer?

[Chappie]

To Chappie's point, it's generally considered "inappropriate" for a Chaplain to be consulted for personnel matters because that individual may lose confidence in the Chaplain.

This is the individual that should be available for people with spiritual/personal needs when they so choose, and to make that same person the one who effectively "judges" them in their performance as an officer provides a conflict.

Previously, our Chaplain sat in on cadet promotion review boards when asked by the Commander; however, over the last just-under-year, I have requested each time that the Chaplain not sit in on boards because I don't want this to be someone cadets feel that they can't approach outside the normal scope of the meeting.

When I spoke of advising a commander on personnel...I am referring to being asked by a commander regarding observations involving interaction with others...morale issues within the unit...etc.  I am not recommending a person based on performance.   Chaplains serve as a "sounding board"....when asked by a commander what my opinion might be on a situation, I certainly can share it.   There are times when a chaplain may have a piece of the puzzle that the commander doesn't.   While the chaplain doesn't need to go into detail (being aware of certain circumstances, etc.) - there should be a trust established between the commander and the chaplain that allows the chaplain to say "dance between the rain drops" without the commander or the individual being drenched   There have been occasions when a word of caution offered to a commander about how something was being considered led to a much better solution than initially discussed (looking for the umbrella on that comment).

I wholeheartedly concur with the action you took.   The chaplain needs to be approachable by all members. 

Phil...I would not even be comfortable as an independent observer for either a promotion board or the commander conducting administrative counseling with a member (let the deputy commander or personnel officer be the "witness" to the event...but not the chaplain or IG -- these two may be needed later)

[Eclipse]

Someone without a "vote" or standing doesn't need to be there - it's not a third-world election.

Also, if you're spending more time then a 1-round email on the "board", senior or cadet, there's probably a significant
issue that needs to be addressed outside that board.

If you're making cadets door knock and recite the chain of command, or any other such nonsense, you're wasting everyone's time.

Detailed OPR-style interviews should be reserved to the CAPF 40's and 50's, separate from the promotion process and
in time to reveal "issues".

[PHall]

Someone without a "vote" or standing doesn't need to be there - it's not a third-world election.

Also, if you're spending more time then a 1-round email on the "board", senior or cadet, there's probably a significant
issue that needs to be addressed outside that board.

If you're making cadets door knock and recite the chain of command, or any other such nonsense, you're wasting everyone's time.

Detailed OPR-style interviews should be reserved to the CAPF 40's and 50's, separate from the promotion process and
in time to reveal "issues".

We make them knock and report properly. That's a skill they will need later. Why not start developing it now?
And we make them recite the Cadet Oath too. Because it's required by the 52-16.

[Eclipse]

We make them knock and report properly. That's a skill they will need later. Why not start developing it now?

And if they don't report correctly, do you deny the promotion?

And we make them recite the Cadet Oath too. Because it's required by the 52-16.

They've already done that to qualify for promotion.

[PHall]

We make them knock and report properly. That's a skill they will need later. Why not start developing it now?

And if they don't report correctly, do you deny the promotion?

And we make them recite the Cadet Oath too. Because it's required by the 52-16.

They've already done that to qualify for promotion.

No we don't deny promotion because they can't report properly. But we do look for improvement the next time they promote.
And the 52-16 requires the Cadet Oath for every promotion. It doesn't say just for one promotion. It says they need to be able to recite it from memory.
Doing it at the board satisfies the requirement.

[Майор Хаткевич]

We make them knock and report properly. That's a skill they will need later. Why not start developing it now?

And if they don't report correctly, do you deny the promotion?

And we make them recite the Cadet Oath too. Because it's required by the 52-16.

They've already done that to qualify for promotion.

No we don't deny promotion because they can't report properly. But we do look for improvement the next time they promote.
And the 52-16 requires the Cadet Oath for every promotion. It doesn't say just for one promotion. It says they need to be able to recite it from memory.
Doing it at the board satisfies the requirement.

But you're also not supposed to quiz the on past knowledge...so why not focus on the CAPF50 series, and their goals/challenges instead of rote memory work?

[TheSkyHornet]

To Chappie's point, it's generally considered "inappropriate" for a Chaplain to be consulted for personnel matters because that individual may lose confidence in the Chaplain.

This is the individual that should be available for people with spiritual/personal needs when they so choose, and to make that same person the one who effectively "judges" them in their performance as an officer provides a conflict.

Previously, our Chaplain sat in on cadet promotion review boards when asked by the Commander; however, over the last just-under-year, I have requested each time that the Chaplain not sit in on boards because I don't want this to be someone cadets feel that they can't approach outside the normal scope of the meeting.

So how do you feel about the Chaplain being in the room during the board to act as an independent observer?

I would prefer the Chaplain not be in the room during a board. I don't want cadets to think this is someone reviewing them or having a stake in their progression. The Chaplain is someone that should solely be a mentor and someone they can approach under any circumstance to discuss any personal matter. I try to make myself that person, but at the same time, I also have to be the one to provide feedback they don't want to hear. The Chaplain is a shoulder to lean on. I feel there is a conflict in being that person when that person may be in a position, in perspective, to be a part of their review for advancement. Additionally, I prefer that command-level individuals be in the review board if possible. Usually, this would be the Commander, myself as CDC, and my Assistant CDC.

Someone without a "vote" or standing doesn't need to be there - it's not a third-world election.

Also, if you're spending more time then a 1-round email on the "board", senior or cadet, there's probably a significant
issue that needs to be addressed outside that board.

If you're making cadets door knock and recite the chain of command, or any other such nonsense, you're wasting everyone's time.

Detailed OPR-style interviews should be reserved to the CAPF 40's and 50's, separate from the promotion process and
in time to reveal "issues".

We make them knock and report as well, but that's just to remain on the discipline side. I wouldn't hold off someone's promotions for a poor report. It's never going to be one sole issue that prevents a promotion unless it's severe.

I know if they can recite the Cadet Oath or not. I won't make anyone do that in a board. I can tell during opening formation if they're reciting it properly. I can pick out individual voices when I listed and I'll know if someone is screwing it up.

The board is time to review overall performance. It's not a quiz.

We make them knock and report properly. That's a skill they will need later. Why not start developing it now?

And if they don't report correctly, do you deny the promotion?

And we make them recite the Cadet Oath too. Because it's required by the 52-16.

They've already done that to qualify for promotion.

No we don't deny promotion because they can't report properly. But we do look for improvement the next time they promote.
And the 52-16 requires the Cadet Oath for every promotion. It doesn't say just for one promotion. It says they need to be able to recite it from memory.
Doing it at the board satisfies the requirement.

But you're also not supposed to quiz the on past knowledge...so why not focus on the CAPF50 series, and their goals/challenges instead of rote memory work?

If someone can't recite the Cadet Oath by the time they reach C/2d Lt, how did they manage to promote prior?

The board is a good time to review performance and provide a critique. Stick to giving feedback and addressing issues. It's a good time to ask for interpretation on subject matter and clarify any issues they may have had based on their perspective.

We do boards for each milestone and a mid-phase review for the longer phases. We also do monthly performance score cards for cadet staff that are solely non-punitive and identify room for improvement while also tracking progression as a member of the staff so we don't necessarily reflect their eligibility to promote solely on lack of knowledge/performance in a particular duty assignment. We also do a self-critique after certain events where the cadet staff will review their logical process for making certain decisions and help us understand where they may lack or greatly succeed.

Face it. We can almost push a cadet to promote when we seniors choose or deny a promotion without any record of denial. It's our job to work with cadets and help them earn those promotions and not set them up for failure.

And when we do hold formal boards, put the people with the most amount of time working with that individual in the room with him/her, and leave those who do not work in their proximity out of the ordeal. Our Chaplain doesn't train cadets; he shouldn't be in the board. I wouldn't have our Finance Officer in the board either.

Solely from a Cadet Program perspective. I can't speak for the Senior Program.

[arajca]

Not every unit does a mass recitation of the Cadet Oath at the opening of every meeting. We certainly don't.

[Eclipse]

Not every unit does a mass recitation of the Cadet Oath at the opening of every meeting. We certainly don't.

+1 - Not to mention that there is a check box on the promotion app which is the objective "yes/no" that they can recite the oath.
it has to be "✓" before the promotion gets to "pending".

[Майор Хаткевич]

Not every unit does a mass recitation of the Cadet Oath at the opening of every meeting. We certainly don't.

+1 - Not to mention that there is a check box on the promotion app which is the objective "yes/no" that they can recite the oath.
it has to be "✓" before the promotion gets to "pending".

When a cadet comes to me stating that they have their promotion requirements completed, I always ask them if they are ready for the oath. Once that is done, they get the click. The review boards always come after that, but only for phases, not each promotion.

[Luis R. Ramos]

We do this only if they cannot do it at the board.

[Chappie]

<snip> Our Chaplain doesn't train cadets; he shouldn't be in the board. <snip> 

A very valid point....I would safely guestimate that 90% of our chaplains could not identify the rank, the achievements and the phases of the Cadet Programs.  Hence, they really could not be of use in evaluating the professional development of a cadet.   Having the chaplain on the promotion board would only serve to evaluate the appearance and the manner in which the questions were answered.  That is not a good use of the chaplain's time or role in the squadron (IMHO).  I hold a Master rating in Cadet Programs....and, for me, sitting in on a review/promotion board is "rushing in where angels fear to tread".