Criminal record & CAP

[BrandonKea]

A pardon means that the record has been expunged!That it has been officially erased. child abuse covers a wide area, ranging from spanking your child to pedaphilia. If a Governor gave a pardon, it must have been a  minor offense. (Pun not intended). despite that if he is a member, he still would have popped up in the FBI screening and had to explain it when he joined.

A pardon does not equal an expungement, in fact, there's a large difference. The North Korea journalists received clemency, their acts we forgiven, however, the government of the DPRK did NOT say that didn't do it.

[Cecil DP]

In the US, we weren't discussing the PRK, In the USA a pardon expunges the conviction. What the Koreans did was commute and deport the reporters. Two different stories,

[BrandonKea]

A very real distinction exists between an expungement and a pardon. When an expungement is granted, the person whose record is expunged may, for most purposes, treat the event as if it never occurred. A pardon (also called "executive clemency"), on the other hand, does not "erase" the event. Rather, it constitutes forgiveness. An expungement can be granted only by a judge. A pardon can be granted only by the governor or the President.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expungement

[Ned]

Pardons and expungements are creatures of state law for state law violations, and federal law for federal crimes.

And as you might imagine, the laws in this area vary somewhat between the 50 states and the feds.

But whatever the legal status, for our purposes it is important to remember that the person did what the person did, even if they are no longer convicted of it.

And the membership review board (required in every unit) will carefully consider the facts and circumstances of the event in making their recommendation to accept or decline the membership.  (Or at least they should.)

Example #1:  Mr. Jones was married to Mrs. Jones for 25 years before she developed terminal cancer that led to a lingering and painful condition.  At some point, Mr. Jones helped his wife to commit suicide and was subsequently convicted on felony manslaughter.  Mr. Jones did his time, and was a pillar of his community.  Mr. Jones subsequently received a gubanatorial pardon.  A couple of years later he applies to join CAP.  Under his state law, he can truthfully state that he has not been convicted of a felony, but he shares with the Membership Committee the facts and circumstances of his wife's death. 

The Committee recommends that Mr. Jones be permitted to become a member.

Example #2:  Mr Smith was a successful drug mule.  So successful, in fact, that he was never arrested or convicted for his crimes.  He applies for membership, and in moment of truthfullness, shares his criminal past with the Committee.  He is not recommended for membership, even though he has never been convicted of any crime.

The point is that is some situations, it is the facts of the incident(s) that are important, not the legal technicality of conviction.  In most cases, or course, the fact of the conviction may make it unnecessary to make a detailed factual investigation.  But we can if we want to.


Ned
Former Legal Officer

[Cecil DP]

A very real distinction exists between an expungement and a pardon. When an expungement is granted, the person whose record is expunged may, for most purposes, treat the event as if it never occurred. A pardon (also called "executive clemency"), on the other hand, does not "erase" the event. Rather, it constitutes forgiveness. An expungement can be granted only by a judge. A pardon can be granted only by the governor or the President.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expungement

I'll accept your definition, though citing a legal dictionary would have been a better choice.

[Gunner C]

If a Governor gave a pardon, it must have been a  minor offense. (Pun not intended). despite that if he is a member, he still would have popped up in the FBI screening and had to explain it when he joined.

Not so.  A governor is the executive of a sovereign state.  He can pardon ANY state offense (if allowed by the state constitution). 

[FW]

^100% concur

It depends on the situation, the crime involved, the time since it happened, etc.

Yes, even Martha Stewart might be able to join CAP... (maybe)

Just not as a finance officer 

Hey!   They let me in.....

[BrandonKea]

But whatever the legal status, for our purposes it is important to remember that the person did what the person did, even if they are no longer convicted of it.

Unless they were wrongly convicted, but that's another bag of worms.


I would like to think that people can make mistakes, learn from their mistakes, and move on with their lives.

I, for example, have 0 criminal convictions on my record, thanks to pre-trial diversion and that traffic class you can take. I have, however, made a few mistakes. Nothing above Disturbing the Peace, but I definitely learned never to throw a toilet from a 3rd story fire escape onto a basketball court at a frat house on a school night... But, again, we live, we learn.

Surely, several members in now have criminal records, and hopefully they have learned their lessons. Just because someone made a mistake, doesn't always mean we're not fit for service in the CAP.

[Ned]

Just because someone made a mistake, doesn't always mean we're not fit for service in the CAP.

Absolutely true.  Which is one of the best reasons we have Membership Review Boards and also rely on the judgment of the National Commander and Executive Director.

These are all experienced folks with common sense.  The last time I looked around at the National Boards, I didn't see any halos.

Every one of us has made mistakes, and hopefully learned from the experience.  We have a process to make sure that membership is the best choice for the prospective member and CAP.


Buy me a Guinness in San Antonio, and I'll tell you about the time I got arrested . . . .

Ned Lee

[Spike]

Hey!   They let me in.....

Anyway......I am no lawyer, have no legal background and no idea where to even start on this subject.  I would like to say that I would prefer that CAP not let in anyone that was ever convicted of sexual crimes, fraud, abuse, theft, murder or other infamous crimes or misdemeanors.  Having said that, I have no problem letting people in that had a juvenile conviction (other than what I listed), or other individuals who have served their debt to society.  Just because something happened 20 years ago, does not mean it will happen again.  There are many who desire to serve their community and nation and CAP is a great opportunity for them.

Just because there is a record does not mean the person continues to act they way they did. 

Now.....there is no such thing as a mistake.  For people to say they "made a mistake" is no excuse.  Making bad decisions is a better way to phrase past indiscretions.  Mistakes are societies way of saying "you did not know better".  Everyone knows better.  The guy that is a child molester KNOWS BETTER.  Yet he choose to be a molester.  That is a person who has no place in CAP.  PERIOD.

I have been honest to prospective members.  I tell them that "in order to be a member, you will be screened by the FBI, free of charge".  If they fail to disclose past crimes they will be excluded, but if they choose to be honest and forthright with me, I will do my best to support them in becoming a member. 

I hate to send away people who at one time made a bad decision or decisions, but have since then been a decent citizen. 

I did have a young woman come to me to apply and was honest with me and let me know she was convicted of shoplifting multiple times when she was a teenager.  I had her gather up support letters from her current employer and friends and family detailing what she does in the community (nurse, volunteer blood donating coordinator etc).  I believe this helped her case.  She currently is a Squadron Commander of a fairly large Squadron and has guided countless young men and women through the program.

On the flip side, I had a registered sex offender try to join and not be honest with me.  (I check every new member on the national sex offenders website by the way.)  I had check and application in hand when I went to return them to him.  I hate doing that, but those people made very, very bad decisions, and I can not overlook that.  He went to another Squadron to apply, and got all the way through to the FBI check, when National sent him a denial letter. 

In short (and yes this was a long post), all we need to use is common sense on issues like this.  Ask what if any crimes a person was committed of carrying out, what punishment they received and how they have lived their life since then.  Make a decision not based just on the fact that a crime was committed.  WE are not here to retry people, nor pass judgments.  IF they are honest with you, have lived a life free of bad decisions since the original conviction, served their punishments (if any) and have a strong desire to serve, lets give them the chance.  If they can provide support on their behalf showing their change of behavior, there should be no problem.  IF they are dishonest, have no regret on past behavior, can not come up with a meaningful argument for joining and can not provide supporting information on their lifestyle change......they are not welcome in most cases.

This is not a hard subject area.  Be smart, do research, be fair and actually try to get to know the person before submitting paperwork to join and things have a tendency to work out. 

Off topic..... Daniel L  Not cool to edit your post stating that you "did not read the replies to your post because they were "long"".  I read every single post in reply to any topic I start, or want to reply to myself.  I hope you read mine here, even though it is "too long". 

[Major Lord]

I think to somewhat restate Ned's case, criminal convictions per se are unimportant, and that abberant acts, criminal behaviors, and other misdeeds are the issue. ( perversion, communism, Amway sales, etc are no longer disqualifying factors) Now assuming that we actually believe that NHQ has some access to a US DOJ background screening tool ( NCIS, EPIC, Etc) criminal convictions are going to be a big red flag, and not having divulged these convictions ( or arrests) is going to get the applicant put on a very short excremental list.

I am skeptical about NHQ actually having the resources to do a true background check, based off of a set of fingerprint cards and  a D.O.B. I consider it much more likely that they use a private pre-employment screening company ( and probably the cheapest one, since an even marginal pre-employment screening costs in excess of $100.00) The bad news, is without having access to federal records, their is no single source of criminal record checks for the entire country. If I am wrong, I would love to hear how we gained access to federal records!

What Squadron has not had an attempt at infiltration by a deviant? How many have made it into CAP (answer:some) How many people accepted people into their Squadrons , when every fiber of their being screamed "No, No, No!" but went ahead anyway, thinking that they would be screened out if they were really bad guys? Maybe listen to that little voice when faced with a prospective member, even if they are admitted toilet hurlers ( The fiends this organization accepts!) If they tell you they shoplifted in High School, and you really want the unspeakable criminal anyway, you can probably get an exemption. Bank robbers, drug dealers, heroin addicts, prostitutes, and methodists we might have to do some "splain'n " to NHQ about.

Major Lord

[Johnny Yuma]

I have, however, made a few mistakes. Nothing above Disturbing the Peace, but I definitely learned never to throw a toilet from a 3rd story fire escape onto a basketball court at a frat house on a school night... But, again, we live, we learn.

Wow Man, just Wow! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Airrace]

It sounds to me like a felon could be allowed into CAP. provided that the offense is not drug related or involves child abuse.

[Johnny Yuma]

It sounds to me like a felon could be allowed into CAP. provided that the offense is not drug related or involves child abuse.

True with new members and we had a lot of members shown the door when the whole fingerprinting / CPPT began back in the late 80's.

However, there were a few that were allowed to stay, including one member that I remember had a child molestation charge. IIRC/WIWAC the incident stemmed from and accusation during a divorce debacle. Mom got daughter to concoct a story, Dad's lawyer told him to take a plea to lesser charges and later the daughter recanted. Didn't help Dad get his LEO job back but I think he was allowed to remain in CAP as his daughter was a cadet and he actually had custody of her despite the conviction. I believe that NHQ actually allowed the Wing Commander to make the call on whether he stayed or not.

Would that happen today? I doubt it.

[CPT Anderson]

Spike,

Not even a misdemeanor?  Come on.  There are some of us who hapened (like "my friend") to have a very very lead foot - 95 in a 65.....felony driving offense, should I not be allowed in CAP b/c I have a lead foot?  I shouldn't be allowed to drive     There are minor crimes that do come up, that is why we have integrity as part of our foundation.  Hey, I got a ticket, so what, I can be honest.  (NOT the 95/65 story....

[Cherokeepilot]

Folks...........

We had a senior member to be tried convicted and received the maximum sentence allowable under state law for financial misconduct with little ole' ladies trust funds.  Said individual was published in headlines in the major regional newspaper.  And.......said individual was made a group commander.

Interesting..........
73s

[Gunner C]

Nothing above Disturbing the Peace, but I definitely learned never to throw a toilet from a 3rd story fire escape onto a basketball court at a frat house on a school night... But, again, we live, we learn.

I have gone to bat for two members who were convicted of crimes when they were young.  But with frat boys, THAT'S WHERE I DRAW THE LINE!

[Gunner C]

The quote above is not Ned's.  Not sure how that happened.  He didn't think it was funny so I tried to fix it but the edit option was gone.

I apologize for the inconvenience.

[Spike]

Spike,

Not even a misdemeanor?  Come on.  There are some of us who happened (like "my friend") to have a very very lead foot - 95 in a 65.....felony driving offense, should I not be allowed in CAP b/c I have a lead foot?  I shouldn't be allowed to drive     There are minor crimes that do come up, that is why we have integrity as part of our foundation.  Hey, I got a ticket, so what, I can be honest.  (NOT the 95/65 story....

Re- read (read again) my post above.  I said "infamous crimes and misdemeanors"  That term may be lost on you, but it is common in the law, relating to things such as murder and rape etc.)  I did not mean a misdemeanor in the sense of a traffic ticket, but I know you already know that!   

[Eclipse]

There are some of us who hapened (like "my friend") to have a very very lead foot - 95 in a 65.....felony driving offense, should I not be allowed in CAP b/c I have a lead foot?

You know what?  Maybe not.

It speaks to judgement and common sense.  There's a reason 95 miles an hour is a felony, its reckless driving.  Tap somebody in the next lane at that speed and you won't need to worry about filing applications for anything, because you're either dead or incarcerated.

And you've already admitted that its a regular occurrence, so we have a pattern of poor judgement and unsafe conduct, yet I should entrust you with the safety of your fellow members and/or cadets?

Just because "everybody does it", or its "no big deal" in your eyes doesn't mean others don't take that kind of thing more seriously.