Dont ask Dont tell Policy

[RiverAux]

Since sexual orientation is not listed as one of the reasons for which membership will be denied or for which you can be kicked out of CAP, I don't see it as an issue.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Nathan got it right.

While we are not purely civilian, we exist (and have always existed) as a way for people who cannot serve in the military to serve their country and our Air Force in uniform.

From our earliest days the old, unfit, sick, lame, lazy, blind, crippled, and crazy have served in the CAP.  I see no reason why homosexuals cannot also serve.

I am no longer qualified for military service, due to my age, blood pressure, hearing, back problems from a series of accidents, and a psychiatric condition called "KMA Syndrome" that renders me pathologically unable to tolerate stupidity from people.  (That last condition struck suddenly, right after I got my 20-year letter!)  I can't point a finger at some other person who is unqualified for military service and tell them that their disqualification is somehow worse than mine.

[Timbo]

^ Sir, homosexuals are not being stopped from serving in the military.  They just must not make their sexual orientation known to anyone in the service (I wish the policy would say "both homosexual and heterosexual, but it doesn't)  I see that posted here......"leave your beliefs and sexual talk at the door when reporting for CAP duty".  So really, CAP may actually have a don't tell policy, though not for the same reasons the DoD does, and instituted by local Commanders, not nationally.   

Honestly, in our politically correct society today, it is better to be less vocal and less demonstrative of your beliefs in public.  You run the risks of alienating others, and at the worst getting sued.  The military is the same way, since women serve right along side men.  The old cadences that you may have used in the 70's and 1980's will get you in a world of hurt in todays military.

[RogueLeader]

We're not even allowed to sing Jodi cadences or "Napalm sticks to Kids' anymore.  We were taught them, but told never to repeat them.  So listen the first time. . . .

Anyways, as far as CAP goes, I don't want to know who, what or how you did something in the past.  So that part doesn't bother me.  However, I don't want my kids to be told that homosexuality is ok.  I want cadets to be taught that everyone is woth the dignity that their humanity grants them. 

[Timbo]

However, I don't want my kids to be told that homosexuality is OK.  I want cadets to be taught that everyone is Worth the dignity that their humanity grants them. 

That is why those people (both hetero and homosexual) need to leave their personal lives at the door and not make reference to sexual, political or social beliefs during any CAP activity.  We are not the moral and social educators of children in these fields.  Let school, parents and community help these children make informed decisions for themselves.

I am the first person that will ask two CAP members who happen to show affection for each other at a meeting TO LEAVE.  I don't care if they are dating, married or confused.  We have a job to do and those things get in the way of the job.

Simply......everyone can join as long as you don't turn the meeting into a heterosexual or homosexual indoctrination seminar.

I guess you can say that I Discriminate fairly against everyone.

[D2SK]

I know a person who is gay and wants to join CAP.  This person asked me if it would be a issue like in the military.  Any comments on this.  This person would be a great assest to the squadron.  They are just worried about the issue if CAP was to find out about the lifestyle the have chose.

Sounds like your friend has issues that are far larger than "can they serve in CAP".

[John Bryan]

However, I don't want my kids to be told that homosexuality is OK.  I want cadets to be taught that everyone is Worth the dignity that their humanity grants them. 

That is why those people (both hetero and homosexual) need to leave their personal lives at the door and not make reference to sexual, political or social beliefs during any CAP activity.  We are not the moral and social educators of children in these fields.  Let school, parents and community help these children make informed decisions for themselves.

I am the first person that will ask two CAP members who happen to show affection for each other at a meeting TO LEAVE.  I don't care if they are dating, married or confused.  We have a job to do and those things get in the way of the job.

Simply......everyone can join as long as you don't turn the meeting into a heterosexual or homosexual indoctrination seminar.

I guess you can say that I Discriminate fairly against everyone.

One I think we do educate each other and esp our cadets.....moral leadership. And if anything we push the wrong way....I have heard a number of CAP chaplains express what "their God" says about this issue. So too late....it is already an issue.

As for "leave their personal lives at the door and not make reference to sexual, political or social beliefs during any CAP activity. " Again not that easy. I would say no one should make out at a CAP event but what about a promotion ceremony. Normally a wife or husband can assist in promotion....is that making a statement of orientation? If a gay members partner helped promote him or her would that be wrong. What about in state where they are married? At last wing conference we had with a dance after my wife and I danced , was that ok? What if a gay member and his/her date danced? When I was Wing Commander I repeatedly thanked my wife for supporting me and told her I loved her....was that statement out of line? If a gay member thanked their partner would it be?

I have never had a problem not having PDA with my wife but everyone in the unit knew who she was and that we were husband and wife. Why would a gay member need to hide that?

You know I always thought that if I had lived in the 60's I would have had the courage to be against racism or if I was a German in the 30s and 40s I would have been willing to say hating Jewish people was wrong. But it is easy to say that now. It is safe to be open to people of different religions and races but there are still civil rights issues we must face not just as an organization but as a people. If RESPECT is a CORE VALUE then we need to except and RESPECT all people.

Interesting side note.....we are a CIVILAIN Aux of the USAF.....word on the street is the next CIVILAIN Secretary of the Navy will be an openly gay man. Maybe we all need to take a big step into the 21st century

[Hawk200]

....I have heard a number of CAP chaplains express what "their God" says about this issue.

A good Christian won't say anything to that effect, unless asked. There's also an issue of not agreeing with the lifestyle, but not condemning it. A good chaplain will tell you it's not their place to judge.

In all fairness, it's not just Christians that are against homosexuality. I've known many atheist and agnostics that believe it to be wrong, too. Many of my fellow military members disagree with the lifestyle. It's completely unfair to paint only the religious with that particular brush. It's a prejudice just as much as disliking homosexuals or being racist.

Normally a wife or husband can assist in promotion....is that making a statement of orientation? If a gay members partner helped promote him or her would that be wrong. What about in state where they are married? At last wing conference we had with a dance after my wife and I danced , was that ok? What if a gay member and his/her date danced? When I was Wing Commander I repeatedly thanked my wife for supporting me and told her I loved her....was that statement out of line? If a gay member thanked their partner would it be?

Personally, I don't see a problem here. Do you actually think it's different for a gay partner to participate in the same manner as a straight one? Or are you try to instigate a response that you can pass judgement on?

I have never had a problem not having PDA with my wife but everyone in the unit knew who she was and that we were husband and wife. Why would a gay member need to hide that?

Again, not seeing an issue here. Your question isn't even related to the statement preceding it. PDA is PDA, and really inappropriate in any setting. The preference aspect is a non-issue.

You know I always thought that if I had lived in the 60's I would have had the courage to be against racism or if I was a German in the 30s and 40s I would have been willing to say hating Jewish people was wrong.

Racism is a learned behaviour. Although it's a concept that should have never sprouted, it still manages to thrive. Most people that are allowed to come to their own conclusions don't even see the point. My parents didn't teach me racism, but I have a feeling if I had developed racist attitudes, they would be disappointed. Prejudice against homosexuals is on the same plane as racism. Both ideas should have died before taking root.

But it is easy to say that now. It is safe to be open to people of different religions and races but there are still civil rights issues we must face not just as an organization but as a people. If RESPECT is a CORE VALUE then we need to except and RESPECT all people.

If you're saying things now because it's "safe", then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. The reason you should be doing it is because it's right. On another note, pay attention to your spellchecker, the word "except" and the word "accept" have opposite meanings.

Interesting side note.....we are a CIVILAIN Aux of the USAF.....word on the street is the next CIVILAIN Secretary of the Navy will be an openly gay man. Maybe we all need to take a big step into the 21st century

Not sure what is so interesting about it.

One, the civilian secretary of the Navy is a far different concept than the civilian auxiliary of the Air Force. One has nothing to do with the other.

Two, the fact that he is gay shouldn't even be relevant to the office he will hold. Unless he got the office because he's gay. If so, then that is no different that someone attaining an office because they're white, black, yellow, brown or purple. One should have nothing to do with the other. The position should have been earned because of personal qualifications, not because of personal preferences or ethnicity. To do so is insulting in so many aspects and to so many people it's beyond imagining.

[John Bryan]

1. Sorry for the typo accept.

2. I never said the word Christian , I said Chaplain (the fact that we dont have enough non Christian Chaplains is another issue/debate).....that said not all Christians are the same. A lot of views on orientation from Bishop Gene Robinson to Rev Fred Phelps....and a lot in between.

3. My main point (I was trying to make) is many posts seem to say that it is ok for a gay person to be a CAP member as long as they don't share the fact they are gay....keep it out of CAP. My point is our stright members don't hide anything.....why a double standard.

[TEAM SURGE]

As long as they don't express it or show it.

[Timbo]

3. My main point (I was trying to make) is many posts seem to say that it is OK for a gay person to be a CAP member as long as they don't share the fact they are gay....keep it out of CAP. My point is our straight members don't hide anything.....why a double standard.

Actually in my Squadron now and the Squadron I commanded, I made it clear that PDA is not tolerated from anyone while at a CAP activity. 

There is no double standard.  Keep the fact that your are straight or gay to yourself.  Why do you have to flaunt that you are either to anyone.  No one cares about your sexual lifestyles. 

As far as your examples on husbands and wifes at the wing conference, no real example.  You can have anyone help promote you.  There is no need to say "helping to pin Captain on Lt Smith is his Gay Life Partner Jason", all that is needed is "helping to promote Lt Smith to Captain is Mr Jason Miller" (Names made up!)
We are not supposed to push lifestyles on our members.  There are politically correct ways to get around it, if you find yourself in that situation.

[Hawk200]

2. I never said the word Christian , I said Chaplain (the fact that we dont have enough non Christian Chaplains is another issue/debate).....that said not all Christians are the same. A lot of views on orientation from Bishop Gene Robinson to Rev Fred Phelps....and a lot in between.

Point taken. This also shows my own guilt of assumption. Yes, there are varying views, I guess a lot of it depends on the place of worship (I could say "church", but that would be assuming too). Many of those place are almost violently vocal against homosexual conduct, and won't even tolerate a gay individual inside their doors. Fortunately, my own church has no such views, all are welcome. If someone gay attends, their preference is not a concern. We believe that God moves a person to conviction, not other people.

I'd have to agree on a lack of other than Christian chaplains. Even the military has figured this out. The Air Force currently has chaplain insignia for Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim. This is definitely a place that we need to mirror the Air Force.

3. My main point (I was trying to make) is many posts seem to say that it is ok for a gay person to be a CAP member as long as they don't share the fact they are gay....keep it out of CAP. My point is our stright members don't hide anything.....why a double standard.

Personally, I don't have a problem with homosexuals. I don't think it is appropriate for them to parade it, just as I would consider it inapproprate to hear any man talking about how many women he slept with in the past week.

All in all, I think it is generally assumed that if a person has not stated they are gay, it's assumed they're straight. It may not really be a case of anyone intentionally hiding something, it may be simply that it's not mentioned.

Right now, I don't even really know the sexual preferences of all the members in my unit. I also don't know how many of them like green as their favorite color. Nor do I care. It is not relevant to the mission, and as such doesn't belong. Sexual preference is a personal choice, not a public or professional one. It should not affect our operations.

[DNall]

From our earliest days the old, unfit, sick, lame, lazy, blind, crippled, and crazy have served in the CAP. 

And still do. BUT, I don't think CAP has ever been about people not able to serve in the military, but rather a way for the civilian population to aid the military mission. I would certainly hope that includes a large number of able-bodied folks, as many of our tasks very much require that.

I am no longer qualified for military service, due to... a psychiatric condition called "KMA Syndrome" that renders me pathologically unable to tolerate stupidity from people.  (That last condition struck suddenly, right after I got my 20-year letter!)

Maybe I have that too? I think it's caused by over-exposure to people with HUA syndrome. Which seems to be a whole lot of privates these days. Go figure. 


In all honesty... Don't ask don't tell is VERY VERY VERY lightly enforced in the military. There are tons of people known to be gay - and I don't mean suspected - and nothing is done about it. Really, no one cares. It's don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue. You don't as a leader ask people you suspect, thereby harassing them with an implied threat to do something about it - which is usually more about outing them in general than UCMJ action. They don't go showing up in gay porn or gay pride parades making the military look bad. And they don't pursue a relationship with other people in the military.

I've seen instructors at infantry school that were in the flamboyant category & talked about living with their boyfriend across the river & taking him home to meet the parents. It's weird, but no one really cares. Anyone out in the gay community saying there's systemic discrimination is a liar. There is discrimination, in the same way that there's a drill sgt that gets charged with having relations with a trainee every couple years or a SNCO gets tagged for a relationship with an E-4. It happens, it shouldn't, and there are consequences when it does.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dave:

My gut feeling is that if a person is able to serve in the RM, he can do lots more good for his country there than in the CAP.  And CAP will still be here waiting for him when his service has ended ready to use his experience.

And "Old" and "In good health" are not necessarily mutually exclusive! 

[Flying Pig]

I dont think its that people dont care, its that if you try to do anything about it, your career will be destroyed right along with the gay military member.  So I think the attitude is.."Whatever, Im not going to be labeled as a gay-basher."

[hatentx]

You know I had the same thought that its ok as long as they dont flaunt it in front of the Cadets.  Thinking back though I remember some of the Cadets over hearing a phone call with a potential date whom happened to call during a meeting.  I went around the corner to handle my non CAP related business just as if it was the Army calling but a couple of Cadets were on the other side of the building in ear shot hearing me talking about taking her out on a date and picking her up.  So I was not flaunting nor was I even around cadets so I thought and my sexual preference came out.  If this was around SM I dont see the issue being that we are all adults but now I guess I am wondering to be completely fair to both preferences how would be the best way.  Now thinking about it more I can recall being asked my a cadet if I was married, which seems like a harmless question from a cadet trying to get to know the SM in his squadron....  well now this really has me rethinking by natural everyday conversation my sexual preference has come out but if I was gay it would be an issue?

[tjaxe]

However, I don't want my kids to be told that homosexuality is OK.  I want cadets to be taught that everyone is Worth the dignity that their humanity grants them. 

That is why those people (both hetero and homosexual) need to leave their personal lives at the door and not make reference to sexual, political or social beliefs during any CAP activity.  We are not the moral and social educators of children in these fields.  Let school, parents and community help these children make informed decisions for themselves.

I am the first person that will ask two CAP members who happen to show affection for each other at a meeting TO LEAVE.  I don't care if they are dating, married or confused.  We have a job to do and those things get in the way of the job.

Simply......everyone can join as long as you don't turn the meeting into a heterosexual or homosexual indoctrination seminar.

I guess you can say that I Discriminate fairly against everyone.

One I think we do educate each other and esp our cadets.....moral leadership. And if anything we push the wrong way....I have heard a number of CAP chaplains express what "their God" says about this issue. So too late....it is already an issue.

As for "leave their personal lives at the door and not make reference to sexual, political or social beliefs during any CAP activity. " Again not that easy. I would say no one should make out at a CAP event but what about a promotion ceremony. Normally a wife or husband can assist in promotion....is that making a statement of orientation? If a gay members partner helped promote him or her would that be wrong. What about in state where they are married? At last wing conference we had with a dance after my wife and I danced , was that ok? What if a gay member and his/her date danced? When I was Wing Commander I repeatedly thanked my wife for supporting me and told her I loved her....was that statement out of line? If a gay member thanked their partner would it be?

I have never had a problem not having PDA with my wife but everyone in the unit knew who she was and that we were husband and wife. Why would a gay member need to hide that?

You know I always thought that if I had lived in the 60's I would have had the courage to be against racism or if I was a German in the 30s and 40s I would have been willing to say hating Jewish people was wrong. But it is easy to say that now. It is safe to be open to people of different religions and races but there are still civil rights issues we must face not just as an organization but as a people. If RESPECT is a CORE VALUE then we need to except and RESPECT all people.

Interesting side note.....we are a CIVILAIN Aux of the USAF.....word on the street is the next CIVILAIN Secretary of the Navy will be an openly gay man. Maybe we all need to take a big step into the 21st century

Wow John... I loved your comment... just loved it.   :clap:

[PaulR]

yeah... "it's always a Friend"...

Inappropriate comment. 


As a civilian and mulitgendered organization, to bar someone because of sexual preference is illegal.  There should be no problems with homosexual members here.   This topic should be the last thing on anyone's mind.  PDA is not acceptable by anyone while at an event, so there is no issue... right.  It is not like we live in a squad bay or share communal showers these days.

[Timbo]

It doesn't matter.  The military's policy will be repealed, so says military times and other blogs. 

[Gunner C]

It doesn't matter.  The military's policy will be repealed, so says military times and other blogs. 

Right, wrong, or indifferent, I'm not so sure that's going to happen  as quickly as some people think.  Congress will have to amend/change the UCMJ.  Remember, Homosexual acts (not tendencies) are still against military law.

Gunner