Professional Development Credit for Prior Cadet Service

[Major Carrales]

IIRC, cadet officers don't cover everything in the AE text... while the Yeager does.

The Cadet AE program is a long comprehensive process required for advancement in the Cadet program.  The Yeager Award is an on line test that can be done in an hour with zero "direct" prep.  

Not even close, in terms of comparison.  

[afgeo4]

IIRC, cadet officers don't cover everything in the AE text... while the Yeager does.

The Cadet AE program is a long comprehensive process required for advancement in the Cadet program.  The Yeager Award is an on line test that can be done in an hour with zero "direct" prep. 

Not even close, in terms of comparison. 

The lone fact that you're allowed to google the whole exam makes it pretty irrelevant (the exam is "open book")

[Major Carrales]

Maybe this whole idea is a way to keep some of those (hopefully) highly trained young people from dropping out or  jumping to the Dark Side at 18. 

Probably... but is it fair to everyone else in CAP? Seems that it isn't, according to responses on this board.

I think it is more than fair.  Cadets, to achieve those levels in the Cadet Program, have been in CAP for a considerable amount of time.  They are not newbies to CAP as many of our SM, including myself at one time, are when they come into CAP.  When I first joined it was CADET Officers and NCOs that actually guided me and introducted me to CAP.  In fact, it was a TFO who recruited me.

Then again, I believe that the CAP Cadet Program should be a form of "ROTC" for the SENIOR PROGRAM.  Thus, that training done in the Cadet Program should count for alot on the Senior Side, lest it be a waste.  

Now, flip it around. Would it be fair to a long time Cadet going "Senior" (who might be a GTL and Cadet Officer with a Eaker or Spaatz who attended encampments as a Cadet Staff and likely attended Wing Conferences and other, including National, level Activities) to be denied the simple rank of 2d Lt, while a bloke off the street makes it in six month with what some would consider minimal training?  Hummmmm?

[afgeo4]

Maybe this whole idea is a way to keep some of those (hopefully) highly trained young people from dropping out or  jumping to the Dark Side at 18. 

Probably... but is it fair to everyone else in CAP? Seems that it isn't, according to responses on this board.

I think it is more than fair.  Cadets, to achieve those levels in the Cadet Program, have been in CAP for a considerable amount of time.  They are not newbies to CAP as many of our SM, including myself at one time, are when they come into CAP.  When I first joined it was CADET Officers and NCOs that actually guided me and introducted me to CAP.  In fact, it was a TFO who recruited me.

Then again, I believe that the CAP Cadet Program should be a form of "ROTC" for the SENIOR PROGRAM.  Thus, that training done in the Cadet Program should count for alot on the Senior Side, lest it be a waste. 

Now, flip it around. Would it be fair to a long time Cadet going "Senior" (who might be a GTL and Cadet Officer with a Eaker or Spaatz who attended encampments as a Cadet Staff and likely attended Wing Conferences and other, including National, level Activities) to be denied the simple rank of 2d Lt, while a bloke off the street makes it in six month with what some would consider minimal training?  Hummmmm?

Major Corrales... please re-read regulations. Currently, cadets who earn the Eaker are allowed to come in as 1st Lt and those who earn the Spaatz, come in as Capt. I believe Earhart gives them 2nd Lt. Those that are under 21 wear the equivalent grades of FO, TFO and SFO and then transition into officer ranks at age of 21.

I'm fine with that. I'm NOT fine with allowing cadets not to have experience in RUNNING a squadron cadet program before say... getting a senior rating in CP (which indicates the ability of a member to perform Group CP Officer duties) or even getting a technician's rating in CP. All of those require experience in administering a cadet program, not being in it.

[Major Carrales]

Maybe this whole idea is a way to keep some of those (hopefully) highly trained young people from dropping out or  jumping to the Dark Side at 18. 

Probably... but is it fair to everyone else in CAP? Seems that it isn't, according to responses on this board.

I think it is more than fair.  Cadets, to achieve those levels in the Cadet Program, have been in CAP for a considerable amount of time.  They are not newbies to CAP as many of our SM, including myself at one time, are when they come into CAP.  When I first joined it was CADET Officers and NCOs that actually guided me and introducted me to CAP.  In fact, it was a TFO who recruited me.

Then again, I believe that the CAP Cadet Program should be a form of "ROTC" for the SENIOR PROGRAM.  Thus, that training done in the Cadet Program should count for alot on the Senior Side, lest it be a waste. 

Now, flip it around. Would it be fair to a long time Cadet going "Senior" (who might be a GTL and Cadet Officer with a Eaker or Spaatz who attended encampments as a Cadet Staff and likely attended Wing Conferences and other, including National, level Activities) to be denied the simple rank of 2d Lt, while a bloke off the street makes it in six month with what some would consider minimal training?  Hummmmm?

Major Corrales... please re-read regulations. Currently, cadets who earn the Eaker are allowed to come in as 1st Lt and those who earn the Spaatz, come in as Capt. I believe Earhart gives them 2nd Lt. Those that are under 21 wear the equivalent grades of FO, TFO and SFO and then transition into officer ranks at age of 21.

I'm fine with that. I'm NOT fine with allowing cadets not to have experience in RUNNING a squadron cadet program before say... getting a senior rating in CP (which indicates the ability of a member to perform Group CP Officer duties) or even getting a technician's rating in CP. All of those require experience in administering a cadet program, not being in it.

Good, now read those regualtions yourself and look at the intent of these "the new" measures. Coming in at a 2d Lt, 1st Lt or Captain with lots of "back fill" of those schools and courses is more of a hinderance, especially to fromer cadets at the University who are limited to travel and have barely enough time to be active on weekend.

So, you're NOT fine with allowing cadets not to have experience in RUNNING a squadron cadet program before say... but you will allow some "Johnny Off the Streets" to fill that role?  A person who knows only what brochures and CAP LEVEL I has to say about it?  When Cadets have "been there, done that" in their units for almost a decade?

I just don't see what your objection is and what constitutes being "unfair?" 

[RiverAux]

Well, we make other folks who get special appointments "backfill" their PD requirements before promoting, so why not former cadets? 

[Major Carrales]

Well, we make other folks who get special appointments "backfill" their PD requirements before promoting, so why not former cadets? 

Because Cadets have already done the work in CAP.  They know Civil Air Patrol history, a degree of tradition and even (gasp) some drill/military stuff, they have done the Aerospace Education and because they HAVE BEEN IN CAP TRAINING for a NUMBER OF YEARS.

A new CAP Officer granted the rank of Captain for being a pilot, lawyer, doctor or educator does not have this background...thus they actually need the courses and schools to know what the cadets have been hammering out for 6 to 8 years.  Oh, I believe they should get the rank because their "training" has been in their fields and they bring these skill to CAP.  But for advancement they need the training that I believe Cadets get as part of the program.

[mikeylikey]

^ 1 week of encampment, one multiple choice test per month, some SDA reports and passing a fairly easy PT test.  They also sit through a moral leadership presentation that may or may not last 20 minutes once per month as well.

So, they read fairly simple books (both Aerospace and Leadership) and take tests.  How does that prepare them to be a CAP Officer? 

4 years of attending half the SQD meetings (testing, PT, moral leadership) and they get their SPAATZ. 

I have to say, I don't like awarding any PRO DEV credit, unless the person took the time to actually complete the requirements. 

[Major Carrales]

^ 1 week of encampment, one multiple choice test per month, some SDA reports and passing a fairly easy PT test.  They also sit through a moral leadership presentation that may or may not last 20 minutes once per month as well.

So, they read fairly simple books (both Aerospace and Leadership) and take tests.  How does that prepare them to be a CAP Officer? 

4 years of attending half the SQD meetings (testing, PT, moral leadership) and they get their SPAATZ. 

I have to say, I don't like awarding any PRO DEV credit, unless the person took the time to actually complete the requirements. 

You don't know too much about how CAP Officers advance do you?  CAP Officers do not attend any encampment or orientation.  Level I consists of some on line tests and a "conversation" with another CAP Officer (it used to be a seires of videos)  There is no PT test for Seniors, no "Cadet Oath" for Seniors to recite their "mantra" of things to do.

SLS is a class taught over a couple of days with no final test.  Most seniors don't get to have it, or won't take it, for year because (especially in large Wings) they are miles away at a significant cost in hotel and travel. 

CLC is more of the same with a different focus.

Course 13, the CAP Senior Officers Course, doesn't require any "study sessions," classes or even meeting attendance requirements.  In fact, you needn't show up to anything at all to take it.  Any average person could read it critically over a month and pass it.

You can't seriously compare years of Cadet work...yes, years, to the CAP Officer program. 

As I said, I regard the Cadet Program as ROTC for CAP, thus I believe that that serivce as a cadet should be "rewarded".

[lordmonar]

I'm NOT fine with allowing cadets not to have experience in RUNNING a squadron cadet program before say... getting a senior rating in CP (which indicates the ability of a member to perform Group CP Officer duties) or even getting a technician's rating in CP. All of those require experience in administering a cadet program, not being in it.

We got senior members who have master ratings in CP and do not have experince RUNNING a squadron cadet program.

And there is NO....NO requirement to have experince or prove the ability to run a Group or higher CP program to get a senior or master CP rating.

[lordmonar]

Well, we make other folks who get special appointments "backfill" their PD requirements before promoting, so why not former cadets? 

Or maybe the question is why do we require specdall appointment officers to backfill the PD requirments.

If we look at PD requirments as being absolutely necessariy for a particular grade.....then we should not give any advanced promotions (which I suppport). 

[RiverAux]

Don't expect me to defend the current system, just pointing out the discrepancy....

[Psicorp]

^ 1 week of encampment, one multiple choice test per month, some SDA reports and passing a fairly easy PT test.  They also sit through a moral leadership presentation that may or may not last 20 minutes once per month as well.

So, they read fairly simple books (both Aerospace and Leadership) and take tests.  How does that prepare them to be a CAP Officer? 

4 years of attending half the SQD meetings (testing, PT, moral leadership) and they get their SPAATZ. 

I have to say, I don't like awarding any PRO DEV credit, unless the person took the time to actually complete the requirements. 

That's all a heck of a lot more than we require of Senior Members who are put in leadership positions in squadrons.   What exactly is it that we do to prepare CAP Officers to be CAP Officers that is so much better?   

How many Senior Members not involved in CP even know what an SDA is?  How many have had leadership training of any sort?  Perhaps if Senior Members had to "sit through a moral leadership presentation that may or may not last 20 minutes once per month," situations like we've had in the past that garnered so much media attention might not have happened. 

Just because there is a failure to lead, mentor, and coach Cadet Officers to be future Senior Member leaders in some squadrons doesn't mean that it occurs everywhere. 

[afgeo4]

I'm NOT fine with allowing cadets not to have experience in RUNNING a squadron cadet program before say... getting a senior rating in CP (which indicates the ability of a member to perform Group CP Officer duties) or even getting a technician's rating in CP. All of those require experience in administering a cadet program, not being in it.

We got senior members who have master ratings in CP and do not have experince RUNNING a squadron cadet program.

And there is NO....NO requirement to have experince or prove the ability to run a Group or higher CP program to get a senior or master CP rating.

Having a Technician, Senior or Master rating requires specific length of service as a cadet programs officer, so unless it was fudged, you can't have Senior or Master rated CP officer who've never run a cadet program. Now understand please that by "run" I don't mean being a Cadet Sq CC or a DCC in a Composite. I mean administer a cadet program. That can be done as a Leadership or Activities officer as well.

Also, according to the CP Track pamphlet, a person who has a Senior rating should be able to run a cadet squadron or serve as a group level CP officer. Someone with a Master rating should be able to be a Wing CP director or above. I'm not saying that the individual is fit for command or the responsibility. I'm saying that someone who's earned those ratings should have the necessary experience and skill sets to do the job.

[Eagle400]

This is an interesting issue that deserves being brought up.


Should advanced PD credit for prior cadet service officers and NCOs be given?  Yes!

Why?


Last time I checked, senior members who complete an Air Force commissioning program (such as ROTC) and become 2d Lt's are eligible for advanced PD credit.

The CAP Cadet Program is the only Air Force-sanctioned youth cadet program in the United States that is very similar in quality to college AFROTC.  Cadets who have earned the Mitchell Award or above already know everything that is taught in the first year of AFROTC, and most of what is taught in the second year.

As long as AFROTC cadets with CAP cadet experience avoid the urge to be cocky or  pretentious, they will stand out among their class as being worthy of increased responsibility and opportunities to provide leadership.

Also, a memo came out recently allowing greater PD advancement bonuses for those with prior cadet service.

One of those bonuses is an automatic Technician rating in Cadet Programs for those with Earhart Award credit.


That would include me.  Woot!

[afgeo4]

This is an interesting issue that deserves being brought up.


Should advanced PD credit for prior cadet service officers and NCOs be given?  Yes!

Why?


Last time I checked, senior members who complete an Air Force commissioning program (such as ROTC) and become 2d Lt's are eligible for advanced PD credit.

The CAP Cadet Program is the only Air Force-sanctioned youth cadet program in the United States that is very similar in quality to college AFROTC.  Cadrets who have earned the Mitchell Award or above already know everything that is taught in the first year of AFROTC, and most of what is taught in the second year.

As long as AFROTC cadets with CAP cadet experience avoid the urge to be cocky or  pretentious, they will stand out among their class as being worthy of increased responsibility and opportunities to provide leadership.

Also, a memo came out recently allowing greater PD advancement bonuses for those with prior cadet service.

One of those bonuses is an automatic Technician rating in Cadet Programs for those with Earhart Award credit.


That would include me.  Woot!

If you're done tooting your own horn...

1. Senior Members with military officer grade MAY be promoted to the equivalent of their military grade up to LtCol. May not be. It's at the commander's discretion. No PD is given unless there's an equivalent PME (professional military education) course that was completed. This credit is offered to all military personnel. NCOs included. All other PD requirements have to be earned to get promoted in CAP grade.

For example: An Army 1LT could be credited for SLS/ECI-13 because of his/her PME credits, but would still have to complete Level I, Tech rating, and time in grade to earn Level II and be eligible for promotion to Capt in CAP.


2. How do you compare ROTC to CAP? I mean really... how? CAP isn't a military program. It isn't a commissioning program. ROTC does just one thing. Again, ONE THING. It prepares its cadets for service in the armed forces as commissioned officers. CAP doesn't do that. At all.

You say CAP training is similar to the first 2 years of ROTC? Well, maybe the senior CAP cadets have received similar training, but have you figured out why the military contracting in ROTC starts after the end of 2nd year? The real work in ROTC starts during your junior year. Everything before that is an orientation and that's all CAP cadets get when it comes to military training. An orientation. CAP isn't ROTC. Period.

The fact that cadets are authorized the PD waivers is what's being argued here and it seems that your argument isn't holding that much water against the arguments of all other posts.

[lordmonar]

Having a Technician, Senior or Master rating requires specific length of service as a cadet programs officer, so unless it was fudged, you can't have Senior or Master rated CP officer who've never run a cadet program. Now understand please that by "run" I don't mean being a Cadet Sq CC or a DCC in a Composite. I mean administer a cadet program. That can be done as a Leadership or Activities officer as well.

Also, according to the CP Track pamphlet, a person who has a Senior rating should be able to run a cadet squadron or serve as a group level CP officer. Someone with a Master rating should be able to be a Wing CP director or above. I'm not saying that the individual is fit for command or the responsibility. I'm saying that someone who's earned those ratings should have the necessary experience and skill sets to do the job.

That is what I was talking about.  To get a senior rating in CP you only need 21 months "running" the program.  Compared to the amount of time that a cadet who has gone through the program to the level where they get credit....it is about the same.  I would expect an Earheart Cadet  with at least 30 months (8 of them in clearly leadership positions) in the program to have the same knowlege of how the program was run as I would expect a CP Technician. An Eaker would have to have 40 months in the program would have more then enough expierince to be considered a Senior Rated CP guy.

Add to that many of these cadets usually have leadership experince at encampments and NCSCs they have more experince running the cadet program then a lot of squadron CP guys.

You can earn a Masters CP rating with out ever venturing beyond the squadron level...with the exception of having to be a staff member for at TLC class.  I would expect my Earheart and above to know everthing that my DCC knows about the ins and outs of the program.  Simply because they have been doing it for a long time and they would need that information to be effective leaders.

[lordmonar]

Hey CCSE.....don't try to help....you aren't.

[Eagle400]

If you're done tooting your own horn...

Say what you will, but the Earhart Award is a cake I had and ate a long time ago.

Nothing can take away the fact that I went from being among the bottom 99% of all cadets to the top 5% in only 4 years.

1. Senior Members with military officer grade MAY be promoted to the equivalent of their military grade up to LtCol. May not be. It's at the commander's discretion. No PD is given unless there's an equivalent PME (professional military education) course that was completed. This credit is offered to all military personnel. NCOs included.

Yes, but if a member with military experience is a member in good standing at his or her unit, the commander is highly obligated to award that member with PD credit equivalent to their military PME credit.

If the above holds true and the commander withholds advanced PD credit, he or she had better have a [darn] good reason for not awarding it.  Also, all members who are eligible for advanced PD credit and get it turned down may submit an appeal to National Headquarters to have their commander's decision overturned.

If that doesn't work, the member can either file a lawsuit for discrimination on the basis of military service, or come here and share his or her opinions about how seldom the application of common sense is in CAP.

All other PD requirements have to be earned to get promoted in CAP grade.

I refer you to the aforementioned memo by Brig Gen Courter:

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2008_06_04_Officer_credit_for_cadet_service_.pdf

For example: An Army 1LT could be credited for SLS/ECI-13 because of his/her PME credits, but would still have to complete Level I, Tech rating, and time in grade to earn Level II and be eligible for promotion to Capt in CAP.

True, and there's nothing wrong with that.

2. How do you compare ROTC to CAP? I mean really... how? CAP isn't a military program. It isn't a commissioning program. ROTC does just one thing. Again, ONE THING. It prepares its cadets for service in the armed forces as commissioned officers. CAP doesn't do that. At all.

No, but there are strong similarities between what is taught in AFROTC and what is taught in CAP when it comes to leadership, aerospace, and military studies.

I suggest you compare AFROTCI 36-2017 with CAPR 52-16 and take a look at the similarities.

You say CAP training is similar to the first 2 years of ROTC? Well, maybe the senior CAP cadets have received similar training, but have you figured out why the military contracting in ROTC starts after the end of 2nd year?

That isin't entirely accurate.  AFROTC cadets on scholarship, regardless of what class they are in, are contracted with the military.  They just don't incur an obligation to serve until they are accepted to Field Training.

And when you say "senior CAP cadets", do you mean those with the Mitchell and above?  If so, I agree with you.

The real work in ROTC starts during your junior year.

Negative.  The real work in ROTC starts in Field Training, where those who have what it takes to be an officer may, and those who don't are dropped and must wait a few years until they can apply for a waiver to enroll in a commissioning program again.

Everything before that is an orientation and that's all CAP cadets get when it comes to military training. An orientation.

Where have I given you and indication that I would think otherwise?  I have said it before, and I will say it again:

There are strong similarities between what is taught in AFROTC and what is taught in CAP when it comes to leadership, aerospace, and military studies.

I said nothing about training to become an Air Force officer.

CAP isn't ROTC. Period.

If you are implying that I said it was, then please resist the urge to put words in my mouth in the future. 

If not, just ignore the above statement.

The fact that cadets are authorized the PD waivers is what's being argued here and it seems that your argument isn't holding that much water against the arguments of all other posts.

To you, it appears that way. 

To me, I will let the outcome of this thread be the ultimate judge of that!

[Eagle400]

Hey CCSE.....don't try to help....you aren't.

You do not know me, you do not know my level of experience, and you do not know the positive impact I have had on one female who became an AF fighter pilot and two men who commission next month and will go to UPT soon after.  Therefore, your assertion is invalid.  Especially considering I have made only two posts in the entire thread thus far.

Sorry, but them's da rules.