Should CAP Officer Basic Course be required for CAP officer promotions?

[ßτε]

I've been looking at the new CAP Officer Basic Course (CAP OBC) and I think we should require it for promotion to all CAP officer grades regardless of promotion method.

I also think we should remove the PME equivalent for the course since the majority of the course is CAP specific.

[CAP_truth]

I had to complete the old ECI 7C course to become 2nd. Lt. Back in the old days. We need more than just Level I and 6 months time in grade. The RM requires officers to complete basic and officer training we need to make our officer corp. more professional.

[RiverAux]

I don't have a problem requiring this for promotion to the next grade for those at any rank, so I'll vote yes. 

However, as a practical logistical matter, they don't appear to have enough spots to handle the large influx of people who would need to do this which could result in unnecessary delays in promotion.  So, that would need to be addressed.

[NC Hokie]

I voted no but there may be a bit of ambiguity in the question.  I don't want it to be a requirement for each and every promotion throughout one's CAP career, but I am in favor of requiring it for one's first promotion (SMWOG to 2nd Lt) or any special appointments (pilot, chaplain, prior military, etc.).

[tdepp]

Is the issue that we now have unknowledgeable or ill prepared officers or that "by golly, I had to do the course so everyone else should too"?  I'm not saying this is a good or bad idea (actually, it sounds like a good idea) but is there an actual problem that needs to be addressed? 

Remember, we are a volunteer organization.  Any requirements should be carefully considered so as to balance time required of a member v. how that requirement enhances our three missions and the vitality of the organization.

[Walkman]

I haven't taken the OBC yet, so I can't speak to that specifically. However, when I joined I was hoping for more training like this.

I'm not saying anything about the "status" of SMWOGs or CAP 2dLt's, I just wanted to learn more and train more right off the bat.

[Eclipse]

Is the issue that we now have unknowledgeable or ill prepared officers...

Yes.

[ßτε]

I voted no but there may be a bit of ambiguity in the question.  I don't want it to be a requirement for each and every promotion throughout one's CAP career, but I am in favor of requiring it for one's first promotion (SMWOG to 2nd Lt) or any special appointments (pilot, chaplain, prior military, etc.).

I was thinking it would need to be taken once, and it would count for all subsequent promotion.
I guess we would need to allow those who have completed ECI 13 to count as well.

[Hawk200]

.... I am in favor of requiring it for one's first promotion (SMWOG to 2nd Lt) or any special appointments (pilot, chaplain, prior military, etc.).

Second.

[heliodoc]

CAP has had issue with this for YEARS...so I say yes it ought to have an OBC

Borrowing the AF ECI methods and allowing us to work within that realm for the earlier years has been the that a era's mainstay

Jump to 2010 and now we got ONLINE courses somehow going to be the savior of the leadership program.

Maybe CAP leadership at the Wing and Region levels need to be beefed up.

Rather than having all those RSC and NSC's for the selected few who want to attain Level 5, CAP ought to start thinking about a truly Regional training program where a SM rather than going to a Wing Conference for the brownie points, has to go through a program like Iowa had and apparently lost.  Rather than having "fun" encampments for Senior Members and SM's who think running a few encampments meets OBC and leadership and checking off boxes for "leadership" it's time for a good old 2 week 0500 to 2230 regime of training at a site, learning, doing, simulating.  By this I don't mean DI's, campaign hats, isuues and perceptions of hazing, but of sheer boring study of the regulations, filling out the proper paperwork, etc, so EVERYONE in CAP is REQUIRED to do it the SAME WAY and by the due date.  This includes the awards issues that seem to be readily apparent that alot of Group, Wing , and Regions Commanders like to sit upon for months at a time, leaving the awardees wondering WTH is my award.  The OBC at the start we set a SOLID FOUNDATION for all to follow even if one is 55-70 yr old Group / Wing  / Region Commander who THINKS they can sit on paperwork..That is where the OBC comes in.......early training INSTILLED so it follows one all through their CAP careers, if they so choose.  There are plenty of "high ranking" CAPers that could stand to got through a repeat of OBC type courses, ''cuz many have forgotten some of the very basic leadership principles they love to espouse....

CAP relying upon SLS, CLC, and UCC courses for 2 day stints is JUST a primer and really is just sit down with no real scenario based training to it.  Granted one can get into groups and talk the day away about uniform wear, but there really has got to be more meat on ANY CAP program if the  CAPTalkers here are even serious about it.

CAP NHQ has had PLENTY of time with and without the USAF  support to come up with something.....

Just imagine all that R&D money and money being spent on IT for all this online education craze that CAP seems so bent upon.

OBC, ANYWHERE, in the RM has been resident courses and its about time CAP does likewise if they want the modicum of respect it so dearly wants out of its "officer corps."  Otherwise you get what you currently get (online and otherwise) with minor improvements over the 68 year period

[davidsinn]

CAP has had issue with this for YEARS...so I say yes it ought to have an OBC

Borrowing the AF ECI methods and allowing us to work within that realm for the earlier years has been the that a era's mainstay

Jump to 2010 and now we got ONLINE courses somehow going to be the savior of the leadership program.

Maybe CAP leadership at the Wing and Region levels need to be beefed up.

Rather than having all those RSC and NSC's for the selected few who want to attain Level 5, CAP ought to start thinking about a truly Regional training program where a SM rather than going to a Wing Conference for the brownie points, has to go through a program like Iowa had and apparently lost.  Rather than having "fun" encampments for Senior Members and SM's who think running a few encampments meets OBC and leadership and checking off boxes for "leadership" it's time for a good old 2 week 0500 to 2230 regime of training at a site, learning, doing, simulating.  By this I don't mean DI's, campaign hats, isuues and perceptions of hazing, but of sheer boring study of the regulations, filling out the proper paperwork, etc, so EVERYONE in CAP is REQUIRED to do it the SAME WAY and by the due date.  This includes the awards issues that seem to be readily apparent that alot of Group, Wing , and Regions Commanders like to sit upon for months at a time, leaving the awardees wondering WTH is my award.  The OBC at the start we set a SOLID FOUNDATION for all to follow even if one is 55-70 yr old Group / Wing  / Region Commander who THINKS they can sit on paperwork..That is where the OBC comes in.......early training INSTILLED so it follows one all through their CAP careers, if they so choose.  There are plenty of "high ranking" CAPers that could stand to got through a repeat of OBC type courses, ''cuz many have forgotten some of the very basic leadership principles they love to espouse....

CAP relying upon SLS, CLC, and UCC courses for 2 day stints is JUST a primer and really is just sit down with no real scenario based training to it.  Granted one can get into groups and talk the day away about uniform wear, but there really has got to be more meat on ANY CAP program if the  CAPTalkers here are even serious about it.

CAP NHQ has had PLENTY of time with and without the USAF  support to come up with something.....

Just imagine all that R&D money and money being spent on IT for all this online education craze that CAP seems so bent upon.

OBC, ANYWHERE, in the RM has been resident courses and its about time CAP does likewise if they want the modicum of respect it so dearly wants out of its "officer corps."  Otherwise you get what you currently get (online and otherwise) with minor improvements over the 68 year period

You going to pay 2 weeks worth of wages for 10s of thousands of volunteers? You going to explain to my wife why we can't take a vacation?

[ZigZag911]

.... I am in favor of requiring it for one's first promotion (SMWOG to 2nd Lt) or any special appointments (pilot, chaplain, prior military, etc.).

Second.

Works for me.

[heliodoc]

Yeah

I've the the argument about the two weeks of wages and volunteers stuff also.

Then CAP and its "officer corps" ought to be just happy enough with what they got and move and stop worrying about all this "stuff in a volunteer organization."

Maybe then, CAP NHQ ought to have a mandatory  4 weekend training OBC before any one gets there little butter bar

All these folks arguing two weeks of this and that are maybe the same ones giving up one week at a time to play TAC Officer or play Encampment Commander at an encampment possibly re living there days gone by on active duty or whatever....gotta be able to priortize

CAP, I would suppose is about choices, if one can spend a week or two here and there for encampments, RSC's and NSC's, then surely there is enough vacation time doing these deals and not an OBC?  C'mon!

CAP has really never really taken thew OBC or leadership too seriously....there were probably hoping all the retired AF and Army Officer would step right up and become CAP professional volunteers, weren't they?

Didn't always happen that way and that is quite possibly the reason "CAP leadership" is in the shape it is today!!  Too many folks want to be in charge and sometimes realize its more than they can give monetarily and vacation time wise

[davidsinn]

Yeah

I've the the argument about the two weeks of wages and volunteers stuff also.

Then CAP and its "officer corps" ought to be just happy enough with what they got and move and stop worrying about all this "stuff in a volunteer organization."

Maybe then, CAP NHQ ought to have a mandatory  4 weekend training OBC before any one gets there little butter bar

All these folks arguing two weeks of this and that are maybe the same ones giving up one week at a time to play TAC Officer or play Encampment Commander at an encampment possibly re living there days gone by on active duty or whatever....gotta be able to priortize

CAP, I would suppose is about choices, if one can spend a week or two here and there for encampments, RSC's and NSC's, then surely there is enough vacation time doing these deals and not an OBC?  C'mon!

CAP has really never really taken thew OBC or leadership too seriously....there were probably hoping all the retired AF and Army Officer would step right up and become CAP professional volunteers, weren't they?

Didn't always happen that way and that is quite possibly the reason "CAP leadership" is in the shape it is today!!  Too many folks want to be in charge and sometimes realize its more than they can give monetarily and vacation time wise

Serving a week as a TAC officer is far more productive than sitting in a classroom for a week.  What possible gain could we have by sitting in a classroom when you lose the ability to serve as a TAC officer that year or other similar things. Some people can only respond to missions by burning vacation time. You constantly get on your high horse about us not knowing how the real world works. Guess what? You don't either. The real world is made up of people like me that have to work to survive and can't burn that kind of time for classroom work at such a low level. RSC is one thing because you already have five years of experience to build on. Throwing a newbie into that is a very good way to run them off.

[heliodoc]

No high horse here

TAC officer more productive?  To some in CAP...Yes   To others that are trying to get a handle on the leadership and other issues in CAP maybe they would honestly would want some sort of coherent  and standardized training that MEANT something to the volunteer membert

Laid off for 7 months now curtailing many CAP activities and doing what I can to survive the economy and apply for work.....I don't need some CAPTalker here telling me about the economy and having to work to survive

No high horse here...folks have to realize as I do 1) this IS a Volunteer organization and to think we are going to be as sharp as the military and wanting alll these type of dream OBC course that everyone on CAPTalk thinks ought to happen and pushing all these requirements and more in CAP as far as having a "real professional CAP officer corps" based on some arbitrary online courses thinking that is going to make leaders of men, women, and cadets is bunk

CAP is about burning vacation where one can ...how do YOU suppose things get done in CAP unless one is growing money trees in their back yard

High horse??   NAAAWWW CAP has no\t changed much in 30 yrs ....technology wise, YES...Leadership wise and the ability to train it to a coherent standard.  NO

OBC low level??  Is that meaning folks are just CAP volunteer minions?? 

Mr Sinn after 20 years on the fireline, 22 yrs as an aircraft mechanic on some of the finest helicopters, 10 years  total in CAP...I guess I do not know what I am talking about so I will defer to tyou and Mr Eclipse as the only ones in CAP that work and KNOW everything and are willing to tell everyone how you have to work to survive.....

Again you sir, know everything..  Thank you Mr Sinn for your valued volunteer opinion!!!

[Hawk200]

Maybe then, CAP NHQ ought to have a mandatory  4 weekend training OBC before any one gets there little butter bar

Things that make you go "hmmmm". Might not really be all that bad idea. Some type of formalized training.

All these folks arguing two weeks of this and that are maybe the same ones giving up one week at a time to play TAC Officer or play Encampment Commander at an encampment possibly re living there days gone by on active duty or whatever....gotta be able to priortize

CAP, I would suppose is about choices, if one can spend a week or two here and there for encampments, RSC's and NSC's, then surely there is enough vacation time doing these deals and not an OBC?  C'mon!

Gotta agree with this. Know more than a few people that have gone to encampment, but "don't have the time" for anything else.

CAP has really never really taken thew OBC or leadership too seriously....there were probably hoping all the retired AF and Army Officer would step right up and become CAP professional volunteers, weren't they?

Didn't always happen that way and that is quite possibly the reason "CAP leadership" is in the shape it is today!!  Too many folks want to be in charge and sometimes realize its more than they can give monetarily and vacation time wise

When I first joined, I was told that there were a lot of military retirees that "ran the program". Within my first year, I can't say I saw many. Being both military and CAP seemed to be an anomoly in the area I was.

Leadership isn't a few online classes, and a couple of sit down presentations in a weekend. Some longer term programs need to be run.

I still think that a person shouldn't make that butterbar in just six months. I think a four weekend program (at a rate of one per quarter) should be run, with some "homework" in the manner of online sessions, would go a long way towards people making steps instead of crawling. Could be set up as a standard Wing administered program, maybe allow it to be run by Groups that are large enough with the available resources. One weekend class every quarter, four different groups each weekend for each "phase".

Once you finish all four of the weekends, as well as the related academia, you get the bar. Advance promotions would be a different animal, obviously, it wouldn't be too hard to figure something out.

There are people out there that put more volunteer time into the Red Cross, Salvation Army, police/Sherrif Reserves, the various Lodges, local community watches, hospital volunteering, crossing guard duty, etc. I remember the thread here where people thought it was perfectly acceptable to grant a Community Service Ribbon to a cadet that helped his mom at work. That's a joke.

Anything that doesn't take a whole lot to earn is pretty easy to walk away from. Things that require investment and make impact on a person's life are the things that people stick with.

I think too many CAP members are happy with the carrot they managed to get. Too bad there's not a garden over the next hill in the offing.

[heliodoc]

Thanks for the assist, Hawk......

CAP probably has to many folks thinking CAP can match RM in the OBC and other related training....

There's ALOT more to CAP leadership than Online courses and "fun times" to run an organization

Also that it MIGHT requiring giving up more than a little vacation time....don't see too many ARC types and other volunteer whining about their vaca time!!!

[Eclipse]

Also that it MIGHT requiring giving up more than a little vacation time....don't see too many ARC types and other volunteer whining about their vaca time!!!

And neither is anybody here, and again you need to knock it off.

Your assertion that members who give up weeks of vacation and other time off to serve at encampments is some how less important
than other CAP activities is so misinformed and belligerent it's incredible even for you.  That time is spent serving someone else, specifically the cadets, and most encampment staffers are hyper-involved in CAP on all levels - they are the same people you will see at all the PD functions, usually as instructors, and they'll be the ones running most of the ES missions, real or otherwise.

If you feel that service is not important to CAP, you have no idea what this organization is about.

[Short Field]

So this thread isn't about the 20 hr on-line CAP OBC but some type of two week in-residence course that would be required for all new members?  Bad idea.

The OBC comes about the right time for new members.  Sometime between when they join and when they have eighteen months TIG as a 1st Lt, they need to have gotten their tech rating and completed SLS and OBC.  Then they get promoted to Capt.  That gives what training they have received time to settle and take hold plus allows them some experience to provide context for SLS and OBC. 

The people who assume a two-week intensive course will solve all our leadership and mangement issues fail to realize that the course will be taught by the same people who are currently in our leadership and management positions.  What is going to be taught differently than what is taught or expected now?

[heliodoc]

OK OK OK

It will be SLS, CLC, UCC and online courses to provide the leadership opportunities for the membership of CAP.

Lack of resident courses of ANY sort just would be beneficial to CAP, accepting the already CAP leadership and quality training and standards that it has had over the many years

I get it!  CAPers just want to be "officers" and "in command" with what little training that already get and resident  courses are just TOOOO much work for somebody to suggest

I do get it!  CAP online courses....YAAAAYY   I am on my way to Colonel and "I am In command!"

[Hawk200]

CAP probably has to many folks thinking CAP can match RM in the OBC and other related training....

There's ALOT more to CAP leadership than Online courses and "fun times" to run an organization

Also that it MIGHT requiring giving up more than a little vacation time....don't see too many ARC types and other volunteer whining about their vaca time!!!

I don't expect CAP officers to meet the same requirements as military ones, it's just not gonna happen, and I think that's mostly more of a case of will than ability.

I think just about every state has a commissioning program that consists of 18 drill weekends, and two AT's in whatever school they have that performs the commissioning training and process. I don't think we should have that, but four weekends out of a year, and a few dozen hours of online training is not much to ask at all. I would enroll in any such program if it came out tomorrow, and I'm already a major.

Now, I know people will say "But we're paying to be members!". I also think that's a failed argument considering that people pay thousands of dollars a year just to take classes that don't even contribute to a degree or certificate, they do it just to learn something. One way to sweeten the pot in that regard might be to somehow make the course creditable toward some college electives. Yeah, it'd take some work, but it will never get done if people blow it off for being too hard.

And neither is anybody here, and again you need to knock it off.

I wouldn't say that anyone was really whining about it, but it has been mentioned here and in other threads.

Your assertion that members who give up weeks of vacation and other time off to serve at encampments is some how less important than other CAP activities is so misinformed and belligerent it's incredible even for you.  That time is spent serving someone else, specifically the cadets, and most encampment staffers are hyper-involved in CAP on all levels - they are the same people you will see at all the PD functions, usually as instructors, and they'll be the ones running most of the ES missions, real or otherwise.

It may not be presented in a manner you like, but there's merit to it. I've seen many people that support the "fun stuff" almost religiously, but don't consider professional development and personal advancement like they should.

A glaring example was a member that had attended three encampments, but had been a 1LT for almost four years. "Don't have time for SLS" was a failed argument considering that one year there was an SLS on a weekend that the encampment overlapped. If I'd been in charge of it, and enough staff were available for those two days, I would have sent her over there in the mornings for those two days to take it. She could have come back in the evenings, and contributed to the encampment as well. Two birds with one stone, but "Don't have time" was the excuse.

There are a lot of examples of people stuck in certain ranks because they just didn't accomplish PD. One group commander that had been a Capain for twelve years because he didn't take his ECI 13. You think that in twelve years, you could have found the time? I did, and I was active duty when I took it.

There are many people that are simply advocating further training than we have. Leadership should be focused on, as command fails in this organization unless you're in a command position.

We want to be considered professionals, but there are just as many organizations that have similar missions to ours that have more stringent requirements and require additional training to be part of them. Many people here want to think of CAP as "elite". It's not something we're gonna be if our standards are lower than those others.

[Hawk200]

The people who assume a two-week intensive course will solve all our leadership and mangement issues fail to realize that the course will be taught by the same people who are currently in our leadership and management positions.  What is going to be taught differently than what is taught or expected now?

A very salient point. We need to put together something, and then stick to it. Make it a requirement that any instructor teaching it has also taken it. Might not hurt to see if we can resource some military instructors on the development of it, and maybe have some teach it at the higher levels. Trickle it down.

Granted, the PD officer is gonna end up with a bit more workload in both the short and long term.

My best friend is a Training NCO in the Air Force. He considers training the most important job in the Air Force. It took a few years for me to see it, but I agree with him now. He'd probably also be a perfect person to start with when it comes to military instructors take a look at our courses.

[FARRIER]

Food for thought:


Back before Computer Based Training became the rage, my colleagues and I, at the training center for the airline I worked for, discussed having some of the course work for recurrency completed at home. And then, come to class ready to discuss what was studied. It would have required actual class time.

Using the above train of thought, for many of our schools, have the knowledge work, via CBT, done before going to the activity. Then maybe we wouldn't need a week for the course.

Respectfully,

[Hawk200]

Food for thought:


Back before Computer Based Training became the rage, my colleagues and I, at the training center for the airline I worked for, discussed having some of the course work for recurrency completed at home. And then, come to class ready to discuss what was studied. It would have required actual class time.

Using the above train of thought, for many of our schools, have the knowledge work, via CBT, done before going to the activity. Then maybe we wouldn't need a week for the course.

Respectfully,

I ate it. You got my vote.

[NC Hokie]

The OBC comes about the right time for new members.  Sometime between when they join and when they have eighteen months TIG as a 1st Lt, they need to have gotten their tech rating and completed SLS and OBC.  Then they get promoted to Capt.  That gives what training they have received time to settle and take hold plus allows them some experience to provide context for SLS and OBC.

Sorry, but I simply can't agree with you on this.  Eighteen months into one's CAP career is NOT the time to finally cover foundational topics such as Intro to Followership, CAP Core Values, CAP Ethics, CAP Uniform Wear, Specialty Training Tracks, Organization of CAP, etc.

[High Speed Low Drag]

I am in complete agreement with the others - OBC should be done sooner.  If I was world dictator (or at least the CAP 2-star), I would make OBC mandatory to get 2nd Lt (or the special skills rank).  Everyone starts as a SMWOG, complete Level 1, to include OBC, then you get your rank after appropriate TIG. 

I would then add AOC (Advanced Officer Course) to get to Capt.  AOC would consist of more advanced topics.  I really like the idea that FARRIER put out - complete CBT, then a weekend of hands-on.

[RiverAux]

I have to say that I am incredibly surprised about the overwhelmingly positive response to the suggestion that all CAP officers have to take OBC before their next promotion no matter their current position in the PD levels.  A thread I started a while back suggesting that officer re-take the new versions of SLS or CLC, which are both radically different from the old versions, received quite a bit of condemnation IIRC. 

[Short Field]

Eighteen months into one's CAP career is NOT the time to finally cover foundational topics such as Intro to Followership, CAP Core Values, CAP Ethics, CAP Uniform Wear, Specialty Training Tracks, Organization of CAP, etc.

Duh, you mean your squadron commander is not having those topics covered in the Summary Conversation or follow-on PD classes? 

The three Senior Squadrons in our area meet twice a month for an hour each meeting.  That is a grand total of 24 contact hours a year.  So before a new members has even 36 contact hrs in the organization, he needs to be required to taking another on-line course (granted a lot of folks will have taken it) for promotion?  Sorry, but the new member needs to be spending time progressing in their speciality track and mastering their job in the squadron.  For those squadrons that support ES, the new members need to be progressing through IS 100, 200, 700, 800, 300, and 400 plus the CAP specific ES courses.  Most new members join to be active in our missions - so the best way to make sure they stay members is to get them qualified and active in the mission as soon as possible.   

[RiverAux]

To sidetrack a little -- I think twice a month meetings are fine for seniors, but an hour per meeting is way too little.  2 hours at a minimum is enough to get some adequate training in as well as to deal with various administrative issues. 

[MSgt Van]

I'd recommend the same before a prior service NCO is allowed to sew on their stripes.

[Lt Oliv]

The first six months in CAP are pretty busy. Before you can even put that brand-spanking-new membership card to use, you have to complete Level I. So, the OBC is NOT the first introduction to Core Values, Customs and Courtesy etc etc.

Then, pile on the prep work for ES. Depending on your unit, you may even be looking at a specialty track and kicking right off with a staff assignment.

Did we mention that people are working full time jobs?

Is our biggest problem poorly prepared 2d Lts? Or is it more senior officers who lack the basic foundation?

Here's an idea.

Instead of saying OBC before you can put on 2LT (which will result in people not putting on grade for around 8-12 months rather than 6 months), why not require OBC and Technician Level for promotion to 1st LT.

Currently, to be a 1st Lieutenant, all you need is TIG and Technician rating, and the OBC is required for promotion to Captain. I think when you are looking at Captain, you're probably too set in your ways. But as a brand new SMWOG, you are getting way too much thrown at a simple volunteer. Why not throw the OBC requirement on the 1st Lieutenant?

You're still new enough to learn as you are still "settling in" but not around so long that the course has no chance of making an impact.

[Hawk200]

Then, pile on the prep work for ES. Depending on your unit, you may even be looking at a specialty track and kicking right off with a staff assignment.

It may be how I'm reading this, but if units are pushing completion of ES quals over professional development, then there's a problem. ES doesn't have anything to do with promotions or development for seniors or cadets.

It amazes me how many units are pencil whipping off specialty track completions, and the member it's being done for either doesn't know what it is, or doesn't know how to do it. And it's all because the wrong level of emphasis is being placed on ES.  ES is almost an extracurricular, not a primary function. New members need to be trained how to do a job that runs a squadron, not thrown into a backseat or fast tracked to a Form 5.

I swear, if I run into one more "newish" member that tells me "I'm a pilot (or scanner)" when I ask them what their specialty track is, I'm probably gonna scream.

There's a time for ES, and it's not within the first six months, or even year. Get people knowledgeable about CAP first, then start them on the additionals.

[ßτε]

It may be how I'm reading this, but if units are pushing completion of ES quals over professional development, then there's a problem. ES doesn't have anything to do with promotions or development for seniors or cadets.

You are partially correct. ES doesn't have anything to do with promotions or development for cadets, nor for duty performance promotions for seniors. But ES definitely has a role in mission related skills promotions.

Also, there is nothing wrong with a unit emphasizing ES training, especially when the primary purpose of the unit is ES. I would much rather have a pilot train as a mission pilot than as an assistant administrative officer. It is ridiculous to me to tell a pilot that "we can't use your services unless you first follow our professional development program."

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that performing ES is one of our primary missions and PD isn't.  Quite frankly after the basics are out of the way, if a new senior member is ES-oriented I'd rather they work on ES quals than PD.  I really don't want a member with months in CAP handling a staff position anyway.  I'd rather that they get acclimated to CAP life a bit before putting that sort of work on them. 

[Gunner C]

Professional development is an implied mission that supports the three stated missions.  Honestly, we hurt ourselves when we give it short shrift.  When we don't have properly trained members, the support functions that are absolutely vital are either poorly done or left undone completely.  How many of us here have complained about record keeping, poor public affairs, or badly conceived communications plans? 

New members should begin learning their "house keeping" jobs early.  It needs to be emphasized early that everyone needs to pull their own weight to get the mission done.  No, it shouldn't be their main emphasis early on, but it should be apparent to everyone who joins that we all have stuff that we need to do.  If they don't want to help out with an administrative function now, then they probably won't be willing to do it later on.  It's all part of being a member and part of a team.

[Short Field]

ES is almost an extracurricular, not a primary function. .....  There's a time for ES, and it's not within the first six months, or even year. Get people knowledgeable about CAP first, then start them on the additionals.

Wake up and read the mission statements.  ES is one of the three major mission areas for CAP.  ES is also why a lot of people join CAP.  NOW you want to tell them that they need to do paperwork and take classes for a year before they can even start training on ES anything ES related? 

[Short Field]

I swear, if I run into one more "newish" member that tells me "I'm a pilot (or scanner)" when I ask them what their specialty track is, I'm probably gonna scream.

Do something useful and scream at the person signing them off for their Summary Conversation.  That person is doing a poor job of explaining how CAP works. 

I had to really work hard to make sure our newbies were not being signed up for the ES speciality track simply because they wanted to be a scanner...  If your squadron is simply the blind leading the blind, no amount of PD is going to help you.

[Short Field]

New members should begin learning their "house keeping" jobs early.  It needs to be emphasized early that everyone needs to pull their own weight to get the mission done. 

+1  But that does not have to be at the exclusion of the three missions. 

[Hawk200]

ES is almost an extracurricular, not a primary function. .....  There's a time for ES, and it's not within the first six months, or even year. Get people knowledgeable about CAP first, then start them on the additionals.

Wake up and read the mission statements.  ES is one of the three major mission areas for CAP.  ES is also why a lot of people join CAP.  NOW you want to tell them that they need to do paperwork and take classes for a year before they can even start training on ES anything ES related?

Tell me something: What is a forest made of?

Maybe you'll figure it out when you wake up.

[Short Field]

A little research will give you the answer.   

[PHall]

ES is almost an extracurricular, not a primary function. .....  There's a time for ES, and it's not within the first six months, or even year. Get people knowledgeable about CAP first, then start them on the additionals.

Wake up and read the mission statements.  ES is one of the three major mission areas for CAP.  ES is also why a lot of people join CAP.  NOW you want to tell them that they need to do paperwork and take classes for a year before they can even start training on ES anything ES related?

Yes.

They have to complete Level 1 before they can do anything. How many have left because of that?

I tell new members "who are here only for ES" that it will be pretty much a solid year before they are qualified to participate in ES missions.

Don't believe me, add up the time it takes for your membership to be processed, to get a Level 1, and to start your ES training.
Join date to MP Standard is usually a year if not more.

[Major Carrales]

I've just read the following posts and think many of you miss the point.  If you put all the "high profile training" at the beginning what the heck are you gonna put at the end?

Here's reality.  A person comes in as a SMWOG...they work on the extreme basics of CAP, LEVEL I with its foundations, Cadet Protection and now a slew of safety items raning from Groudn Handling to ORM.  Also, they train "on the job" for what they are gonna do for their squadrons.  Those heavy into ES will also have a heck of a lot to do via GES (run properly) and all sorts of NIMS Stuff.  If you give them a proper mentor to guide them...they finish it all and become a 2d Lt (Which in CAP is the BEGINING of professional development...not the END).   

While this is happening...they, if they are productive, will take a staff position, learn about CAP procedures...not in a CLASS, but from the PRACTICES.  They, if properly guided by more experienced CAP officers...grow to a TECH rating in their field and, by the end of their first year, are in ES or CP.

As they prepare to become 1st Lts in CAP, they likely have been to several SARexs, Encampments or the like and have probably never stood in a formation or been asked to Drill.   They then consider taking the CAP Officer Basic Course...which until now (as an ECI 13) is a chore based on obsolete materials.  Then they make Captain.

Normal CAP Officers will remain in their Squadrons their whole career, implementing the three missions.  They don't seek to rise to WING and may take "duel" Group positions to help out locally.  Most I know are respectful of military customs and courtesy, but it is hardly called for.

I think we get, if properly guided, quite a lot of training for people who are maintaining jobs, careers and families while serving our Community, State and Nation in the CAP.

I can testify to the fact that every spare hour not at a meeting must be saved for ES, CP and AE...NOT PD for its own sake.  I cannot, nor would not, take a single day off of work to attend a CAP training born more of insecure desires to be what we are not than of meaningful origin...I would, and have, taken leave from work for HURRICANE DEPLOYMENTS, driving cadets to Leadership Schools/ENCAMPMENT and a host of other things.  As a teacher, summers are key times for increased activity, but I will not support making squadron level officers take arbitrary trainings that will rob their time for "mission related" deployment. 

[NC Hokie]

Eighteen months into one's CAP career is NOT the time to finally cover foundational topics such as Intro to Followership, CAP Core Values, CAP Ethics, CAP Uniform Wear, Specialty Training Tracks, Organization of CAP, etc.

Duh, you mean your squadron commander is not having those topics covered in the Summary Conversation or follow-on PD classes?

He did, actually, which makes me wonder why NHQ wants me to study the same material eighteen months later in the Officer BASIC Course.

[NC Hokie]

Is our biggest problem poorly prepared 2d Lts? Or is it more senior officers who lack the basic foundation?

I'm curious...when should the basic foundation for senior officers be laid?  Your proposal suggests that it should be done when they're junior officers, but centuries of military and management training suggest otherwise.  That's why it's called a BASIC foundation.

[Short Field]

Don't believe me, add up the time it takes for your membership to be processed, to get a Level 1, and to start your ES training.  Join date to MP Standard is usually a year if not more.

We start them on ES training as soon as they finish Level 1.  Step One - CAPT 116 so they can earn GES.  Then they progress through the rest of it...  ES is why they joined - so we try and make sure they have lots of ES fun.  That makes them a lot more willing to do the professional development and to take a role in running the squadron. 

We are always stressing to the membership that this is OUR squadron and WE have to do all the jobs to make it run properly - there is no one else to do it.  When you cut to the bottom line, that is what PD is all about anyway:  training squadron members so they can effectively run the organization.

[vento]

I've just read the following posts and think many of you miss the point.  If you put all the "high profile training" at the beginning what the heck are you gonna put at the end?

Here's reality.  A person comes in as a SMWOG...they work on the extreme basics of CAP, LEVEL I with its foundations, Cadet Protection and now a slew of safety items raning from Groudn Handling to ORM.  Also, they train "on the job" for what they are gonna do for their squadrons.  Those heavy into ES will also have a heck of a lot to do via GES (run properly) and all sorts of NIMS Stuff.  If you give them a proper mentor to guide them...they finish it all and become a 2d Lt (Which in CAP is the BEGINING of professional development...not the END).   

While this is happening...they, if they are productive, will take a staff position, learn about CAP procedures...not in a CLASS, but from the PRACTICES.  They, if properly guided by more experienced CAP officers...grow to a TECH rating in their field and, by the end of their first year, are in ES or CP.

As they prepare to become 1st Lts in CAP, they likely have been to several SARexs, Encampments or the like and have probably never stood in a formation or been asked to Drill.   They then consider taking the CAP Officer Basic Course...which until now (as an ECI 13) is a chore based on obsolete materials.  Then they make Captain.

Normal CAP Officers will remain in their Squadrons their whole career, implementing the three missions.  They don't seek to rise to WING and may take "duel" Group positions to help out locally.  Most I know are respectful of military customs and courtesy, but it is hardly called for.

I think we get, if properly guided, quite a lot of training for people who are maintaining jobs, careers and families while serving our Community, State and Nation in the CAP.

I can testify to the fact that every spare hour not at a meeting must be saved for ES, CP and AE...NOT PD for its own sake.  I cannot, nor would not, take a single day off of work to attend a CAP training born more of insecure desires to be what we are not than of meaningful origin...I would, and have, taken leave from work for HURRICANE DEPLOYMENTS, driving cadets to Leadership Schools/ENCAMPMENT and a host of other things.  As a teacher, summers are key times for increased activity, but I will not support making squadron level officers take arbitrary trainings that will rob their time for "mission related" deployment.

+1

[Hawk200]

A little research will give you the answer.   

I know the answer, but I think you're missing the point.

[jimmydeanno]

...resource some military instructors on the development of it

Not to put a fine point on it, but ECI/AFIADL-13 was written by the "military." 

[Hawk200]

...resource some military instructors on the development of it

Not to put a fine point on it, but ECI/AFIADL-13 was written by the "military."

Yes, it was. And when was it done? About twenty five years ago?

We didn't advance with the times. Accomplishments from twenty five years ago are just that. We need to move forward.

[jimmydeanno]

Yes, it was. And when was it done? About twenty five years ago?

We didn't advance with the times. Accomplishments from twenty five years ago are just that. We need to move forward.

My point wasn't so much that the AFIADL is obsolete, but that the military isn't necessarily the best educational source we could use.  Just because many of our members are familiar with military style educational techniques, it doesn't mean that we should immediately run to them to develop our educational materials.

We can "oooh" and "awww" at military leaders all day and try to pull off their experience, but it doesn't necessarily make them the best option for us.

You don't see journalists around the world using the Tongue and Quill as their "bible" for how to write do you?  No, because while it works in the military, it certainly is not the best way to write.

[Short Field]

...resource some military instructors on the development of it

Not to put a fine point on it, but ECI/AFIADL-13 was written by the "military."

So were the latest versions of CLC and SLS.  Read the notes and you will see that it was a project by a group of ACSC students.

[Hawk200]

Yes, it was. And when was it done? About twenty five years ago?

We didn't advance with the times. Accomplishments from twenty five years ago are just that. We need to move forward.

My point wasn't so much that the AFIADL is obsolete, but that the military isn't necessarily the best educational source we could use.  Just because many of our members are familiar with military style educational techniques, it doesn't mean that we should immediately run to them to develop our educational materials.

We can "oooh" and "awww" at military leaders all day and try to pull off their experience, but it doesn't necessarily make them the best option for us.

You don't see journalists around the world using the Tongue and Quill as their "bible" for how to write do you?  No, because while it works in the military, it certainly is not the best way to write.

We may not be military, but we present ourselves in a like manner. A paramilitary chain of command, an association with a branch of military service, and a cadet program that educates youth on both aerospace power and aviation history. Yes, it does cover things that aren't military in nature, but that's not why they gravitate to it.

Leadership has been moved forward a great deal by military lessons learned. You don't see leadership as much of a focus most other places.

Leadership is very important in CAP. We need people to influence others to want to accomplish the missions. We all know that some "volunteers" will leave if asked to do something they don't want to.

The military has a great deal of experience in this, going back a long time. Hence, my suggestion that military instructors be utilized to assist in the development. I don't think there's much in the way of corporations working on much that's even similar.

I've said before that I don't think that CAP officers should have the same requirements as military officers. But, some of the leadership training that military personnel have would be extremely beneficial.

[jimmydeanno]

So were the latest versions of CLC and SLS.  Read the notes and you will see that it was a project by a group of ACSC students.

The SLS was written by an NHQ staffer, not ACSC students.

[SarDragon]

Regarding T&Q, it's just a standard set of rules to ensure consistency. It's no better or worse than AP, Strunk & White, Turabian, et al.

[Short Field]

The SLS was written by an NHQ staffer, not ACSC students.

I knew one was written as a class project at ACSC - I just thought both were since they had the same look and feel.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The military has a great deal of experience in this, going back a long time. Hence, my suggestion that military instructors be utilized to assist in the development.

Also maybe utilising available (if any) Guard/Reserve former MTI's to instruct new people on customs, courtesies and drill.

Of course, the mode of instruction would need to be modified somewhat from what one gets at lovely Lackland.

[Lt Oliv]

It's important to note that no one is asking you to complete OBC "18 months later." There are quite a few folks who are getting a jumpstart on Level 2 while still 2d Lieutenants. There is no reason why one cannot knock through OBC and attend SLS in their first 18 months. I've seen new pilots do just that while completing the various requirements to fly for CAP.

The fact is, this is professional development. Some CAP Officers will naturally develop faster than others. Some will complete Level II while still a 2d Lieutenant, while another will rush to complete Level II because they want to make Captain. Then again, some people really care about promotion, while others are here for a specific mission (say, a pilot who doesn't really care so much about rank).

Here's an idea. Bring in Warrant ranks. Let a SMWOG become a Warrant Officer. Then we change the whole dynamic. Instead of people who don't have any rank at all, we are respecting the experience and professionalism that a new senior member brings. If they don't care about advancement, there is nothing wrong with remaining at a WO grade for the duration of your CAP Career. If you want to advance, then hit the requirements head-on and advance through the "commissioned" grades.

The key difference between us and the RM (besides pay), is that a newly minted 2nd Lieutenant is likely fresh out of college (for the sake of this, we are not discussing prior service enlisted who are commissioned). You can put on your butter bars after four years of ROTC, or around 13 weeks of OCS. The military, however, also respects specialized fields such as nurses, lawyers and chaplains. That;s why they skip OCS.

In CAP, very few people come in with absolutely no usable skills. Utilizing a pilot, a lawyer or a chaplain is easy to explain away. But even a person with secretarial skills, a person with experience in youth programming, or a person who is just plain organized can easily be integrated into the staff structure of a unit. Level I prepares a person to walk into the room for the first time and get to work. But OBC is not Level I. OBC is quite in-depth compared to level I, which, I believe, is perfect when you consider that the typical OBC student is just then taking on more responsibilities and requires a more in-depth knowledge of CAP, Ethics and Customs and Courtesies.

We are not 22 year olds coming up for the first time. Many CAP Officers are former military. Many CAP Officers are accomplished in their civilian field. We should focus on harnessing all of that expertise and putting it to use rather than just trying to mimic the RM because we think we deserve to be saluted more.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^What you say has merit, and in many ways I'm with you, but I think the general consensus throughout CAP (or at least CAPTalk) is that any change to the grade structure to bring back WO's and promotable NCO's is a non-starter.

Whatever changes are going to be made training-wise are, like it or not, probably going to have to be made within the current structure.

[tdepp]

We are not 22 year olds coming up for the first time. Many CAP Officers are former military. Many CAP Officers are accomplished in their civilian field. We should focus on harnessing all of that expertise and putting it to use rather than just trying to mimic the RM because we think we deserve to be saluted more.

LO:
I'm with Cy on the chances of changes to the grade structure.  But I agree with most of what you had to say, particularly what I've quoted.  A good squadron, group, or wing leader will make full use of folks' skills as you note above.  In my wing and squadron, that has definitely been the case.  That's a function, I think, of leadership, training, insight, and good people skills on the part of the CC.  I tell prospective and new SMs that whatever it is they are good at, there is probably a way for them to use that to better our squadron or wing.  And they'll learn a thing or two as well.

I go back and forth about rank.  As a military-styled organization with direct ties to the USAF (and our long history), it makes a lot of sense.  It also gives people pride and something to work for.  But at the same token, when it comes to actually getting a job done or doing a mission, skills are far more important as well as being able to work as a team, IMHO.  And yes, I know some of the rest of you don't agree with that, but that's fine too.

I don't see a need to change our rank structure.  Would more officer training be a good thing?  Yes.  But at least in my squadron that has been regularly tasked with quite a bit of aerial recon and photography, our priority is training for skills so we can man and successfully perform those missions.  Most of our SMs want mission-related skills training first, PD training second.  And I can see the argument the other way. 

Fortunately, CAP gives squadrons that flexibility.  My squadron does not lack for good leadership.  That is a function of the types of individuals we have as SMs--self starters, responsible, good at their civilian jobs, dedicated to CAP, willing to learn and teach, and good team players.  Did CAP teach them that?  Maybe a little, but they came into the organization already as self-actualized individuals. 

Chicken or the egg, I suppose.  I just feel blessed to be in such a great squadron and wing with so many talented people willing to help as needed.

[SarDragon]

some good stuff

I mostly agree. But what about the folks who join CAP who don't want to do the same thing for CAP that they do for their regular job? Most of my contributions to CAP have been through skills I've learned in CAP. I know several other members with the same feelings.